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I'm looking for resources on temperate permaculture. I like growing veggies and food in my yard, and have decided I want to step it up a bit. We have some small (baby) fruit trees (cherries, a nectarine, an apple), and I want to do more.
So I'm interested in permaculture, and want to find out how I can turn my yards into a low-maintenance food ... forest of sorts.
I need advice - species that work in my area/climate, especially legumes aside from beans and peas, and recommendation of plants to put in (with reasons).
A note - I want everything to either be edible or to support the edibles. Poisonous anything is not welcome - I have small children.
There have been several discussions here on the subject. Use the search box for this forum. Truly a subject we all could benefit from learning more about.
Hi Sivedra: Here is a link to Northeastern Permaculture which in turn lists several permaculture groups for the area. I believe there is a Hudson River Valley group.
Ive noticed that one of the limitations of the Food Forest model is that it tends to be based on tropical rather than temperate forest models. I think there are a lot less climbers for example in a temperate forest model - so that using vertical space is not quite as important. But getting sun exposure is critical. The temperate forests are more open and organized instead of mixed up. There will be berry patches around the edges and trees like the sugar maple to form the canopy. Understory berry trees like Amelanchier are in groups by themselves in the "edge zones".
I would make a chart of your property and make notes on drainage - existing plants - and sun orientation.
You may need to put in some drains if that is a problem.
Make lists of the big trees you need and possibly plan for a mixed hedge of understory type trees along a property line. Note the mature heights and spans of the trees. A sketch design will give you an idea of how you need to use your space. Most "Food Forest" designs are too crowed. The plants need space to grow. The northeastern permaculture web sites can help you with local food plants.
Nut trees make a good foundation. Temperate fruits like apples, pears, and quinces need sun and don't get as tall as the nut trees.
Also Toby Hemenway's Gaia's Garden is written for the NW but his food forest designs for back yard are very adaptable. He has some interesting notes on plants that can be layered with black walnut, for example.
The Permaculture Activist website has several articles on designing food forests.
Also - don't forget the animals. Permaculture designs incorporate ducks, chickens, goats, etc.
And if you live adjacent to a wild area don't forget some food sources for the critters there.
What about water. Do you have enough room for a pond?
I will definitely have to make some changes to the 'standard' tropical or sub-tropical model. We have less than 100 feet wide by about the same long of back yard. The front is shorter the long way. We live in a semi-suburban area with small roads but a lot of them, like the 'communities' you sometimes see around, but without the housing association making rules (the town does that).
I have enough space for a handful of trees, a bunch of bushes, and a growth of smaller plants - both in front and in back of the house. The back yard has full sun in some areas, and part shade to full shade in others. The front is full sun right up to the house (which will change when the cherry trees grow, they're near enough to shade the front of the house in the summer).
I already have some cherry trees (mentioned) in the front and a pixiecrunch apple in the back, as well as a baby nectarine tree. None are fruiting yet - they're young. I have a few blueberry bushes scattered about, and some... blackberries of some type. I think they're dewberries. They're big like mulberries, no thorns whatsoever, and hang in huge bunches from the newer not-woody wood.
I have rhubarb and strawberries in abundance. Boy, do we ever have strawberries!
Unfortunately, I can't include farm animals. Town ordinances say you have to have 50 feet between any buildings that are lived in and any chicken/whatever coops, as well as 50 feet between all property lines and the coop - and you have to have neighbors' signatures on a say-so, and you have to... blah. I'd have to petition the whole danged town to get even a few chickens in here. So... not going to happen, unless I buy a new house - and that isn't the goal here.
Farm animals aside, the birds LOVE the berries we have on the property, so while we can't say for chickens, we sure get a lot of robins, blue jays, cardinals, and sparrows. Not to mention the squirrels and chipmunks and rabbits I'm always fighting with over the tomatoes, onions, etc that I grow (never mind peas. I can't grow peas. I can grow them for compost, but the deer and small animals nibble them down so they only grow 6 inches tall - which is pretty funny when it's not upsetting me). And there's this raccoon who's convinced we're his personal chefs. I think he (or at least the rabbits) live in the back corner of the property, where it's been allowed to run wild with prickers and forsythia and undergrowth.
Despite having clay and rocks (with the characteristic rust coloration in the clay that means loads of iron) on most of the property, the areas that ARE dirt are so full of worms you can't dig up a shovel full without getting 10 or 15 of the things - which is a good sign. My compost pile is sitting near my garage, which is basically being used as a storage space for all my gardening gear.
I don't know a whole lot about permaculture in general - I am reading the links, but am also typing this at 1am while battling insomnia, so...
I just kind of looked around the neighborhood one day and heard all the neighbors complaining about 'bad soil here', and how 'nothing ever grows, good luck trying for vegetables'... and was floored by the volume of _grass_ (along with their uses of pesticides and lawn mowers and all kinds of other things). I mean... if all we grow is a hungry, invasive, mat-making, plant-throttling pest of a plant, how are we supposed to expect the soil to be _good_?
I want to set a good example - make something nice to look at, comfortable to live in, full of food, and good for the ground - so maybe my neighbors will (albeit slowly, I'm sure) think twice about what they're doing. Maybe they'll stop looking at me as the woman who's 'into that whole organic thing' (crazylady looks included) and start saying 'hey, what she's doing is working'. Not to mention that I'd like to get my family fed off really nice, home-grown treats and yummies.
We don't have a lot of space for a real pond, but I'm planning to work out a way to do a birdbath.
Actually, the previous owners had this hot tub near the house that wastes water, electricity, and serves as a mosquito breeding ground. We've been emptying it out with a bucket regularly (they didn't have a real lid for it, it's gross) and keeping it turned off. We sorta considered selling it, but who would be crazy enough to come dig it up and haul it away?
Part of me is seriously tempted to try to find a way to utilize the pumps-and-filters-and-bubbles mess and turn the thing into a fountain. But that's a heck of a project. I don't know if I'm up to it. I have a lot to do just trying to get the grounds straightened out right now!
sevidra: Sounds like you have a great start. You just have to figure out what you want in terms of design and then start organizing your plants. You will find some small back yard plans in Gaia's Garden.
Beyond that you will probably want to improve your soil. Instead of a "compost pile" which is a lot of work I would try no dig methods - lasagna gardening or sheet composting. That way you are feeding compostable materials directly to those worms and let them do the work.
rofl oh, I'm not nearly that careful about my pile.
We spent last year dumping compost into one spot. I planted squash in it this year, and the new compost pile is in another spot.
We just sort of dump all the kitchen waste veggies, along with leaves, dead baby maple trees, and whatever else we find, into a pile in one place.
I round up some of the spearmint that's trying to take over our whole yard and dig it into little trenches there before we start dumping. Then, when we are dumping, there's no stink - the mint gets bumped every time we dump, and puts out minty smells. It also likes to grow just about anywhere you let it be. I heard a joke once about a lady talking to her gardener about growing mint, and the punchline was something along the lines of "throw it at the ground and stand back". Well, in our case, we throw it at the compost pile. *grin*
It means having to dig it out before I plant there the following year, which is a bit of a pain, but funny - and gets out some of the frustration from having it try to strangle my peppers, onions, and other things. :D
I've been talking with the man about putting in raised beds, done with a sort of no-dig lasagna style pile. I got the idea out of one of the companion planting books I picked up. But the lumber is expensive around here, and stone more so, so I have to consider how I could do that. I'd really like to just have the 'let 'er rip' philosophy work on my backyard. I'm willing to harvest, and clear out the occasional overexcited flora, but I'd like to be able to do all the hard work in the first 3-6 years or so, then relax.
Sevidra … That hot tub will make a very nice pond. Turn off all the hot tub stuff and put an inexpensive pond pump and filter in it. Stock it with some fingerlings of whatever type fresh water fish survives up there (the fish would alleviate the mosquito problem) and raise them for fresh meat. Depending on how big the tub is, you might be able to divert rain water from your gutter system into the tub and then use some of the fish flavored water to water you plants. Then just dress it up a little and there you are.
That's an interesting idea. The tub is little hot-tub sized - big enough for four people to sit on the seat-shaped things in the corners (it has weird contour-y shelves on the inside, not so much steps as rounded seats), but not big enough to swim or move. It's apparently designed for a couple and/or their friends to sit in and relax and talk, not to play in. maybe four or 5 feet on a side, including the seats? It has a big 'step' to get into it, which I believe houses the motors and whatnot.
I think fish would be a MUCH nicer use for it! That's a good idea. I'll have to talk to my man about it, of course, but he's not happy with the state of the thing anyway, so... it might fly. :)
In order to divert water from the gutters, we'd have to find a way to pipe it there. The deck is between the hot tub and the house - we're talking about ten or fifteen feet of treated wood and cement between it and possible gutters. So there'd have to be some form of barrel/pump/piping system...
Hmm... I wonder how it's hooked up. I don't know anything about it, except what I see.
I don't know much about fish, either though. Are they hard to deal with? Like, to make healthy, that is.
Fish aren’t that hard to deal with. At least they don’t bark all night. My faux coy aren’t any trouble at all, but then we don’t eat them either. I don’t think pulling a fish out of a tank is much different than pulling one out of a lake health wise. Maybe even safer since you don’t have to deal with pollutants and the like.
Look for AZGRAMMY somewhere on this board. She is doing something along the same lines with catfish in a tank.
there are a lot of fish ponds around here. Ive never managed one, but I get the impression there is a lot more to it than just putting the fish in. One woman says she has to go to the ponds every so often - even at night and check the pH. Some people have had their fish go belly up. then they have to drain and clean the ponds. So there is some care involved.
I have a pond, my hubby put it in, and my problem is the fungus, and algae that build up, I dump chlorine in it to keep the mosquitoes out and keep the algae under control, so how would you be able to put fish in, I'm curious now since you, lizardskeep, suggested raising fish to eat, I've been shadowing this thread because I love the idea the original poster was looking for, and have been following along, I'm on rented property, but can do what I want with it, but money for some things would be a waste, if I ever leave here to live elsewhere. The fish idea is great, so I guess I'll follow this for awhile to see how things go, hmmm! Great idea!!! I have generated lots of activity from the birds, and wild life that come by to eat or drink, My garden isn't doing well, it's the first year, and I think the compost pile grows things quicker than all the mixing, hauling and getting my soil just right to grow things in, here again, 3 blocks off the beach, salt in the air is my biggest battle. So, I'm excited once again by something new:) Thanks for the idea's. Here's a picture of my pond, and I have to say it's around 3 ft deep and probably around 10ft in diameter. What do you think? Could I do fish and would they eat off the algae and stuff that grows in there? Thanks again! Jami
I didn’t know a large pond (?) was that much trouble. Figured it would be managed like a lake or even just a cow tank. Guy down the road pulls some good size cat fish out of his cow tank.
Jamibad … use an ultraviolet light to keep the algae out. They don’t cost too much for a small pond. A pump sends water through the ultraviolet unit where the light kills the algae cells. They work really good and will keep the water algae free. The fish will control the mosquito problem.
Will have to refer the fish for food raising to someone more experienced. I may not understand all I think I know on that end of it.
Here is the link on AZgrammies fishing expedition. http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1008385/ I'm sure she will answer any questions you might have. In this climate, smaller tanks need more aeration in the summer heat. That is a real problem in smaller ponds and containers.
You can create a self-sustaining pond as long as you understand how ponds work.
Jamibad,
As long as you have moving water, the mosquitoes will not lay eggs there. Also, if you put goldfish or guppies in the pond, they will feed on the mosquito larve. Lizard was right about a UV sterilizer. Just stick it on the tube for your water pump and you will have crystal clear water in 3-5 days.
The first problem with fish ponds is people put the fish in too quickly. The pond has to create a relationship with bacteria before it is safe. The bacteria eat the poop. Otherwise it just ends up with water with high levels of toxic ammonia. First put the water in the pond with dechlorinator. Then wait about 5 days. Then add a frozen shrimp or two. This will jump start the waste cycle. Some people just toss some goldfish in at this point because they are so hard to kill but it isnt necessary. Let the shrimp stew for another week and maybe add an aquatic plant or two. It would be good if you keep it in the pot with the soil that it came with. This will add more of that wonderful bacteria.
The shrimp waste turns into Ammonia and the bacteria will eat it and excrete Nitrites. Nitrites are bad but not as bad as Ammonia. Then new bacteria will eat the Nitrites and excrete Nitrates which are then eaten by the aquatic plants and algae. At this point, you are ready to add a few fish. Dont add too many. Add more plants too. I like to have an 8 inches of pea gravel at the bottom. This will help create a soil eventually for the plants. Wait another month and add more fish.
This whole process should take about 2-3 months. You should never add fish sooner than 5-6 weeks or you are asking for trouble. If you rush this process, you will be hurting the fish even if they do live. After a few months, the pond reaches this nice equilibrium and the plants will start to flourish and a nice fuzzy algae will grow on the rocks and sides. This is very good. That algae just eats up the nasty stuff. This algae is different that the slimey algae or the green algae in the water. Those are signs that you have too much waste in the pond which means you probably have too many fish. If you choose to use a UV sterilizer, just remember it kills bacteria as well as algae. It wont kill all of it, just the stuff in the water. There is more living in the soil, rocks and sides of the pond. When people drain their pond and clean it, they are killing all of the important bacteria. It is really a bad thing to do. If you are going to raise goldfish, you will not need a pump/fountain. If you are going to raise other fish or a mini catfish pond, you will need a good filter to help the bacteria out.
This type of pond is not a "show" pond. It will look nice but not immaculate. This is an eco-system pond that has low maintenance and high survival rates. If you choose to max it out with too many fish, you will have to add additional hardware to keep up with the additional waste. I have a 400 gallon pond and have done many salt and fresh water aquariums. The quality of my pond water is so good that it tested better than the city drinking water for nitrates and I have no pumps on it. I just have fish and plants.
Oh yes,
I agree with Podster. The larger the pond, the less likely it will crash or have oxygen issues. Aquarium stores will say 1 gallon for every inch of fish. That only applies to aquariums with filters and only to small fish. To be safe, I would say 2 gallons for every inch of fish under six inches long and 4 gallons for every inch of fish over six inches long.
WOW!! I have an aquarium in the house and understand the eco-system of that tank, a small one, but I think I can do this. You all are so great on helping out, and I just read all the new post, so of course I haven't read anything more than that, but I'll read it as soon as I get a chance, I'm all excited over this and I hope I can raise fish to eat, I'm kinda thinking my pond may not be big enough, and hubby will have to dig some more, LOL, But the ultra violet unit is a given, I'm getting one, and thanks for the info on that, Never would of thought of it, wow, this site never ceases to amaze me, the things you learn, thanks everyone, (easier than all the ID names ) You all rock :)!!
Noticing the pot on your pond reminded me of a hair-brained-idea for a water feature I tried. Unfortunately it didn’t work. Wind kept blowing the water stream out of the catch basin.
Ok, I'm starting a new thread for this particular discussion - partly because I want to keep getting ideas on the whole backyard permaculture thing (including what to do with a small yard), and partly because it deserves its own thread, it's an interesting thing!
Here (Zone 8) we have kudzu and mimosa (sp?) but both are highly invasive. Looks like the permaculture people are having that problem, too - that the legume trees are on the invasive species black lists.
Hey Sevidra,
Are you looking for soil reclimation, nitrogen fixing and edibility? What will be the purpose for the legumes? When you wanted it larger, did you mean the the size of the plant?
it's for all of the above, really. I'd like to be able to eat the fruit if possible - but the biggest deal with them is for getting nitrogen into the soil and re-working it to be better. Yes, I meant the size of the plant. Before I heard about this, I'd never heard of legume _trees_. 0.o I always thought of peas, beans, and peanuts when I thought of legumes.
One of the worst invasives I have is Asian wisteria. Its a legume. Many of them (large legume plants) are going to be in the invasive category because they are nitrogen fixers. They are the "pioneers" that will move into disturbed or damaged land. The trick is to get them in and then harvest them before they can get out of control.
Well two that I can think of right off the bat are Eleangus and Sea Buckthorn. Many of the Eleangus are invasive so I would try the Goumi because it is less invasive with large berries. I think it is more attractive as well. The Sea Buckthorn my not be the most attractive but it will probably be the next super food to hit the market. It is widely used in other parts of American. I bet user Krowten here on Daves could give you lots of ideas for your area. I will send him this post.
sevidra: You could try kudzu. In your area it should winter kill. Its roots go down 100 ft or more so its good for subsoiling. The only trouble with it is killing it so it doesn't come back! No berries. It does have a nice pea blossom in summer - not too conspicuous. And its good grazing for animals - llamas?
I would also support Autumn Olive, Goumi and Sea Buckthorn. The Goumi and AO do fix nitrogen, from what I have read. AO is very productive and kids like to eat the berries(when they know they are edible). The trees don't get too big and also are nice to look at. The AO berries are available in large quantities in the fall(you could eat them for weeks), but because of a somewhat bitter skin, I do not know if anybody does much with them. I have heard rumors of AO wine, but cannot confirm them. Still they work as a browser food in the fall and are very high in lycopene. AO has not been invasive here in zone 5, but I have seen that it could be in zone 6, having discovered a large planting in KY that seems to be spreading. Supposedly AO shoots are edible and the leaves can be used for a tea, but I have not tried this.
I also like goumi, but have had several plants die here. That is also one where you will have to fight the birds to get anything and I really mean "fight the birds" Robins will strip your tree before the berries are ripe but in a survival situation, I would likely enjoy an omlet made from of blue eggs...
Blueberries can be selected so that you have a harvest most of the summer growing season, June through September, depending on the weather and conditions. It's hard to beat blueberries for productivity (AO's can come close but get much larger)
Gooseberries are very productive. Currents will hang on a long time so provide an extended harvest time. White currents, white strawberries and white nanking cherries are, for the most part, ignored by the birds here, but are, of course, somewhat less nutritious.
Bush cherries can be an important source of fruit as well. Nanking cherries in the spring, followed by Korean cherries, then the fall bush cherry Joel (self fertile). My Joel's are just now sizing up and will be harvested this month. Joel is very productive
Every temperate garden should include lingonberries, imho. While you won't get a large crop from them, since they are small plants, you can nevertheless use as a ground cover that produces fruit much of the summer. For sustainability, you would need to mulch with leaves every year.
Yacon is very productive but is freeze sensitive, so you would need to store propagation material inside. Some would prefer Jersulem artichoke aka sunroot which is in the same family, winter hardy AND invasive in zone 5. I planted JA 15 years ago, treat it like a weed in my garden, yet always end up with a small harvest at the end of the year. JA can be dug all winter long, if you establish a stand of it, then mulch well before a hard freeze. It is healthy and productive. Still, I do prefer the taste and harvest ease of yacon, if you can get past the propagation/storage issue. Yacon edible tubers are easier to store than JA, but do not store for as long a time. JA tubers can be left in the ground eliminating the need to store them at all (if mulched)
Since I am mostly focused on small fruits in my garden, that is what has been mostly mentioned here. We don't not have a deer problem here, so mostly I fight the winged pests. My more distant neighbors have serious problems with racoons and deer, however.
Asparagus is in the early spring and relatively easy to establish and keep going.
[Off topic?: At some point, there probably should be a discussion about birds and the damage they do. Fruit feeding in birds can be triggered by the UV color of the fruit. I believe that is why lingonberries here are not bothered by birds, but cherries are. Most gardeners are not aware of this color trigger, since we do not see UV like birds do and do not see the fruit change UV color as it ripens. There has been scientific reseach on this topic.]
Forgot to mention the hardy kiwis. If you have the space, a hardy kiwi (arguta) can product 100's of lbs of fruit once established and the fruit, under refrigeration, will store for half the winter if done right. Very high in vitamin C.
This looks like a wonderful point of beginning for permaculture in the back yard; is encyclopedic wrt plant building blocks - http://www.pfaf.org/leaflets/top20.php
I ate some of the Silverberries, which are part of the Elaeangus family, and boy they were bitter. I spit them out right away. However, i waited another week until they were dead ripe and they tasted like cantalope and very sweet. The silverberries are not invasive since their seeds are not viable.
Sea Buckthron: Be sure to get a commercial/named varieties of this one, as the wild ones are far less productive and likely not worth the effort whereas the named ones are.
