| Author | Content |
twiggybuds
Moss Point, MS
(Zone 8b)
August 08, 2009
08:26 PM Post #6924220
| http://www.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/08/07/eco.invitro.meat/...
I guess I've had my head under a rock because this took me by surprise and I'm still not sure how it works. Evidently governments and venture capitalist are seriously funding research to grow meat in lab conditions for our consumption. I guess there are a lot of pluses but it feels so sci-fi. You seriously need to read this. |
greenhouse_gal
Port Elizabeth, NJ
(Zone 7a)
August 08, 2009
09:00 PM Post #6924349
| With all the problems that have arisen with farm-raised fish, this does NOT sound like a good idea...I hope wiser heads prevail. |
lizards_keep
Colmesneil, TX
(Zone 8b)
August 08, 2009
11:50 PM Post #6924885
| Problems? ... |
twiggybuds
Moss Point, MS
(Zone 8b)
August 09, 2009
03:58 AM Post #6925209
| Leslie I'm not sure what problems you're referring to specific to fish farming, but I see problems with all of our industrial farming.
This is being touted as a means to reduce animal suffering, greenhouse gas, wasted resources and to increase food safety and supply for growing populations and wallets. All that sounds just perfectly wonderful.
Cultured meat will surely lead to cultured eggs and where else it goes, nobody knows. I sense that this will have a major impact on life as we know it. Some people will always be able to afford the real deal and it will be available for a substantial price. Low and middle income people can have the cheaper version. If this were available in the stores today at the same price, say ground beef, would you try it? If it looked and tasted the same, would you embrace it as your new norm? Usually I'm all for innovation and new tech but somehow, this makes my stomach flip.
Is this how we will free up crop land and water for bio-fuel feedstock and deal with increased desertification?
News like this makes me feel like an old relic from the past and I don't like to feel that way. Those of us that have our little plots and space for a few animals will come to be viewed as kings of the earth or anachronisms.
|
greenhouse_gal
Port Elizabeth, NJ
(Zone 7a)
August 09, 2009
07:32 AM Post #6925327
| I don't buy farm-raised fish because there have been concerns about high levels of PCBs in their flesh. Here are some links:
http://www.ewg.org/reports/farmedpcbs
and today, coincidentally, from the NY Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/30/dining/eating-well-farmed-...
Twiggy, I agree with you about "cultured" meat. We already raise as much of what we eat as we can without allowing it to take over our lives, or else buy it organically if possible, but how many people can do that? I'll bet if this becomes widespread there will be a huge growth in the organic/natural meats market. |
DiggerDee
Ffld County, CT
(Zone 6b)
August 09, 2009
12:05 PM Post #6926128
| "...but somehow, this makes my stomach flip..."
My thoughts exactly. I forwarded the article to someone and told them that the idea of this "made my stomach turn".
I noticed that the article said that the acceptance of GM foods would be used as a touchstone to judge acceptance of the lab-grown meat. The article went on to say that:
"What's interesting about the GM issue is that it has been controversial in some places, but is a non-issue for most consumers"
I tend to think it's a non-issue because most people have no idea that they ARE eating GM foods. If they knew, what would their response be?
I find the whole idea of lab-grown meat revolting.
|
twiggybuds
Moss Point, MS
(Zone 8b)
August 09, 2009
05:45 PM Post #6927414
| http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/sciencenow/3302/05.html
Here's a short PBS video that's from January 2006. Evidently this is old news but I just heard about it. I think since the first article mentioned 10 years that they must have made great strides forward with this.
Everyone they interviewed spoke of acceptance of it.
|
IL60062
Northbrook, IL
August 09, 2009
06:22 PM Post #6927529
| Fish farming is same as pig farm or any other animal farming. Feeding animals with or without antibiotics etc in different animal farming (fish is animal too). Dream for unsolved problems are seen many times previously. As one of the first creators of first special cell lines used for gene therapy, I witnessed that more than 20 years passed without being used as a routing treatment. In-vitro meat for market will encounter numerous challenges before acceptance by general public. The CNN article is not clear where they are after in-vitro fertilization. Up to this is not new at all, as seen for aiding human pregnancy and stem cell research. Ten years? Probably more than 2 to 3 times longer until cost of growing in sterile condition for large scale gets cheaper, to say minimum. It will be interesting to see their honest list of unsolved problems and potential problems . |
gloria125
Greensboro, AL
August 09, 2009
07:27 PM Post #6927751
| What is a routing treatment? Il60062 |
IL60062
Northbrook, IL
August 09, 2009
11:47 PM Post #6928768
| To gloria125:
Very well. You should be a proof reader! |
twiggybuds
Moss Point, MS
(Zone 8b)
August 10, 2009
12:01 AM Post #6928824
| http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/featu...
Here's a more informative article. The million $ PETA prize expires in 2012.
It says this is absolutely necessary for sustainability. Not just for limited resources but because farming livestock accounts for more greenhouse gas than transportation emissions. I remember reading somewhere that there are some proposals to assess a per head fee in the spirit of the cap and trade policy.
The more I look into this, the more inevitable it looks. I can think of several products in the past that were quickly embraced by the public (oleo, cool whip, egg beaters and artificial cheese). Some motivated by health and others by $. So many are so removed from the reality of our food now that it seems a minor step to acceptance of this.
|
grownut
Clarkson, KY
August 11, 2009
09:36 PM Post #6936638
| Ugh-ly. And as long as no one fails to anticipate some of the long term ramifications of this we should be okay. And preventing or avoiding desertification by eliminating the majority of humus producers...brilliant. We can use the grain to feed the cars and bunny poo to fertilize our fields.
...horribly tongue in cheek here, my apologies...but how does approaching one small aspect of one problem EVER contribute to balance??? Has anyone ever calculated how much animal life is necessary in a given ecosystem to maintain its viability? And remediation viz cities and paved areas? Why not just stop giving the poor cows gas and stop pigging out? hhmmrrrggghhmmm...grumble.
CanNOT believe in-vitro meat could lead to any environmental balancing... |
lizards_keep
Colmesneil, TX
(Zone 8b)
August 12, 2009
04:54 AM Post #6937528
| Think PETA might be a little bias on this issue? |
gloria125
Greensboro, AL
August 12, 2009
07:57 AM Post #6937752
| And all of those, twiggy, were presented as healthy alternatives to "bad" things like fats in our diet.
Now our fat intakes are so unbalanced that we really are unhealthy. Fake food and short cut food is never a good solution. |
Hastur
Houston, TX
August 13, 2009
09:30 AM Post #6941893
| As someone interested in science in general, this is interesting. However, as someone who can taste the difference between grass fed and grain fed beef (and will never go back at this rate), I would probably be less than enthusiastic.
On the other hand, I've seen every horror movie and sci-fi movie out there and have this mental picture of slabs of creatures, being fed intraveneously, growing in vats and then being harvested. No wonder I prefer the more natural way of doing things.
|
grownut
Clarkson, KY
August 13, 2009
10:48 AM Post #6942164
| Wonder where the food will come from for the slab-creatures? |
Hastur
Houston, TX
August 13, 2009
11:09 AM Post #6942227
| Break down soil and plant materials and feed it to the slab in a liquid medium? That's how they do it in the movies.
|
lizards_keep
Colmesneil, TX
(Zone 8b)
August 14, 2009
12:33 AM Post #6944634
| Do I need to dust off my tin foil helmet? |
grownut
Clarkson, KY
August 15, 2009
11:42 AM Post #6949338
| Definitely! lol. |
LariAnn
Miami, FL
(Zone 10a)
August 15, 2009
07:06 PM Post #6950650
| IMHO, it is the inevitable outcome of the idea that humans are carnivores and not herbivores/fructivores. A little comparative anatomy (take lion and tiger digestive tracts, for example, and compare them to the human digestive tract) will demonstrate that we do not have a carnivore digestive tract. But so long as people keep clamoring for meat, some industry will spring up to supply it. Then another, more "efficient" industry will spring up to do a "better" job of it. And so on, ad nauseum . . .I'm always amused when I hear about cows being fed feed that has meat by-products in it (cows are obligate herbivores), then looking at a bag of dog or cat food, and finding vegetables in it (those animals are obligate carnivores). So has the whole world gone mad, or am i just on the wrong planet? |
gloria125
Greensboro, AL
August 15, 2009
08:22 PM Post #6950877
| The "Man the Hunter" syndrome plagued anthropology for a long time, until there were actually some scientific studies of what people eat. There are a few (Eskimos, Laps) who actually do eat a lot of meat, but most people eat mostly vegetables. We are onmivores -- like pigs. |
jimmyd61
August 16, 2009
11:00 AM Post #6952819
| Yes, we are omnivores. According to Michael Pollan, as he mentions in Omnivore's Dilemma, humans have an enzyme in their digestive tracts, called "elastin- or was it elastinase." The only duty of this enzyme is to break down meat, basically. If we were inherent herbivores, why would our bodies create this enzyme? Like Gloria125 states, Eskimos, Laps, and many other cultures thrive on meat based diets and until western dietary influences of processed flour and sugars, had relatively little disease. In other words, no cancer, no heart disease, no diabetes. Now go to these cultures, when these folks have consumed cheap processed foods for 50 years and these big three are rampant. If you listen to the hierarchy of the vegetarian movement, it is because of their meat consumption. I believe this is a bunch of hooey. The Masai have been consuming meat, raw milk and the blood from their cows for centuries without health problems and cholesterol levels around 170. No veggies, fruits, to speak of, but meat, milk, and (ichhh) blood. Not knocking vegetables here, just providing a deviation from the societal norm.
I guess my main point here, is that if we go back to traditional diets, remove the processed foods from what we eat, consume whole and raw foods, and a little animal based products being raised as they should be, we would probably do just fine.
I agree we are omnivores, not herbivores or carnivores. I guess the only real question is to what proportion do we partake upon these foods? It is obvious from history and tradition that many cultures are all over the place insofar as ratios, etc. I am thinking we should all find our niche and see where it leads us. instead of saying this or that diet is the best. There is no "one size fits all" with this kind of thinking but if we just keep in mind what our ancestors did before
technology so graciously laid processed foods on our plates, we might even avert "health care reform."
Naaaaaaahhhhhhhh. Too much money to be made and power to be gained from technological "advances" like cloned meat and the like. |
twiggybuds
Moss Point, MS
(Zone 8b)
August 17, 2009
02:37 AM Post #6955479
| There's been a lot of talk lately about the Mediterranean Diet which I have not looked into lately. I did live in on the coast of Italy for 3 years in the early 70s and feel like I know something about it. At that time, sweets and meat were treats. Average folk only had meat once a week if they were lucky and then it wasn't in what we would call a serving size. Likewise with seafood. It was astronomically expensive because they lacked sufficient land for livestock. They were over populated and much of the land was mountainous volcanic rock. Every little patch of dirt had something (mostly edible) growing on it. Instead of tractors, they had burros and water buffalo. When gas was 50 cents here, it was $4 there.
In their country, they were masters at using herbs and making the most ordinary meatless meals a gourmet delight. Even their plain bread and butter was wonderful. When they came to America you know what happened to their food. Lots of meat and cheese just because they could. Evidently it's true that most of us want meat and the only thing that will hold us back is availability and finance.
All my life I've believed in freedom and our capitalist society. But lately I've been wondering if history will just call us an experiment that failed because nothing was sustainable.
Last winter it was on all the news channels that Spam had become so popular that it was flying off the shelves faster than they could stock it. That was a sure sign that people will cling to their meat with their last dollar. But not me. I'd do like the old Italians first.
|
greenhouse_gal
Port Elizabeth, NJ
(Zone 7a)
August 17, 2009
07:16 AM Post #6955699
| We have spent time in France visiting with friends and really admire their food. Since we were there more recently, even in the rural villages meat and sweets were very prevalent, but the outdoor markets were outstanding and the availability of fresh fruits, vegetables (bio and otherwise), artisan breads and cheeses and charcuterie was impressive. French farmhouse cookery uses a lot of meat because it's available - geese, ducks, chickens and pigs especially - but they use everything on an animal, including chicken combs and feet. I learned to make rillettes - a shredded meat product - out of goose carcasses. Some of the regions focus on olive oil for their cooking, but others use goose or duck fat. Maybe because of the lifestyle it doesn't take the toll on health that you'd expect.
Some of the books I've read decry the development of factory farming over there, but townspeople used to keep a few animals raised the traditional way for their own consumption and for their friends. I don't know what that's like now, but I do know that Label Rouge chickens, raised free range, are considered to be very desirable in the markets. |
mittsy
Space Coast, FL
(Zone 11)
August 17, 2009
07:33 AM Post #6955720
| I enjoyed this thread very much! I don't have a lot of trust in genetic tampering or massive farming.
While wintering in Florida we went to a fish camp for a fish fry dinner with some friends. We had a delicious all you could eat fried fish dinner. "Panga" fish, so reasonably priced, my radar went on full alert. I learned at an early age that if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. So I try to be better informed. After Googling, found this.
http://www.whytraveltofrance.com/2008/01/30/why-you-shouldnt... |
greenhouse_gal
Port Elizabeth, NJ
(Zone 7a)
August 17, 2009
08:38 AM Post #6955886
| Wow, the article and the film en français are really disturbing. Why isn't the word out on this travesty of a fish? We shouldn't be allowing it to enter our ports or our markets!
|
grownut
Clarkson, KY
August 17, 2009
11:18 AM Post #6956547
| Not quite to topic...but I've often thought the only function of the 'intelligent' omnivore is to pick and choose from among the available foods and eat what should be eaten to maintain balance. Pipe dream, but hey... |
gloria125
Greensboro, AL
August 17, 2009
03:04 PM Post #6957489
| Im stilll not clear whether the Panga fish link is hype or not. The response comments say its not even true. |
greenhouse_gal
Port Elizabeth, NJ
(Zone 7a)
August 17, 2009
04:43 PM Post #6957829
| A friend in France sent me this in response to my email to her about panga:
| Quoted: | An alternative view:
http://www.seafoodbusiness.com/buyguide/issue_basa.htm
We first tried this about a year ago and I was at first shocked to read all the don't-eat-panga stuff. Interestingly, when I researched this back then, there were about 9 anti-panga hits on the first google page and one (that I just sent you) with the opposing viewpoint. Now, a year later, the don't-eat-panga viewpoint has spread wildly and there are no opposing viewpoints available for who knows how many google pages. I have no idea which is correct! |
But that article still doesn't address the information on the documentary and in the article about contaminated river water and China-supplied urine from pregnant women injected in the fish to make them grow faster and larger. I'm staying away from it. I did check snopes since one person said that it was debunking that information, but I couldn't find anything on panga or basa.
|
twiggybuds
Moss Point, MS
(Zone 8b)
August 17, 2009
05:11 PM Post #6957927
| The American catfish farmers trade group got upset at losing sales and mounted a successful lobby for legislation to require it to be truthfully labeled. Evidently it was being marketed as farm raised catfish before the law was enacted. I wonder if that effort launched the "country of origin" laws we have now.
I do think it's safe to assume that, worldwide, anything goes that's commercially viable. At the same time, governments are busy establishing "safe" levels of toxic or suspect contaminates and that's being accepted as truth. My problem is that I've lost all faith in that "truth".
|
greenhouse_gal
Port Elizabeth, NJ
(Zone 7a)
August 17, 2009
05:45 PM Post #6958067
| I think a lot of the problems coming from China triggered the "country of origin" regulations. My friend thought that the push against panga derived from American catfish farmers and might be questionable as a result, but that doesn't explain the French documentary about it. |
dparsons01
Albuquerque, NM
(Zone 7b)
August 18, 2009
04:45 PM Post #6961875
| Are these the same people (or same mentality) that think artificial sweeteners & fats are better for us? |
twiggybuds
Moss Point, MS
(Zone 8b)
August 18, 2009
06:32 PM Post #6962200
| Actually the pee from Chinese pregnant women doesn't bother me nearly so much as the artificial hormones we routinely use in our farmed animals.
I'm convinced that those hormones and excessive protein consumption is causing very early puberty. Several studies have documented that early puberty increases the risk of certain cancers in females. It also results in enabling lots of our kids having kids problem. So right there are two costs to society that most don't think about, certainly not the regulators.
|
gloria125
Greensboro, AL
August 18, 2009
07:10 PM Post #6962309
| There was an expansion of the years of sexual maturity for girls/women during the 20th century.
I thought this was an interesting page of information on that phenomenon.
http://www.mum.org/menarage.htm |
lizards_keep
Colmesneil, TX
(Zone 8b)
August 22, 2009
05:05 AM Post #6975136
| Some of our more savvy posters may be able to elaborate on this but it’s my understanding that the rapid increase in the brain size of early man is attributed to the increased protein consumption after they advanced to the hunting stage. It’s also true that herbivores have to seek out certain salt and/or mineral deposits to balance their diets. Omnivores don’t have this problem since the salt and minerals are obtained in the meat they eat.
I think fake food is just that … fake. Ever try any of that fake butter in a squeeze bottle? Put it on some hot corn on the cob and what does it do? Just sits there. Doesn’t even melt. Just sits there. Tastes like butter but it still just sits there.
|
gloria125
Greensboro, AL
August 22, 2009
10:14 AM Post #6975649
| lizards_keep: I don't think most anthropologists would subscribe to a "stage" theory of evolution anymore. Human adaptation throughout prehistory has been a lot more complicated than that.
But I do think our prehistory does dispose us to not do so well on fake food. We need a wide and plentiful variety of the real stuff to be healthy and long-lived. |
AlohaHoya
Keaau, HI
(Zone 11)
September 15, 2009
09:58 PM Post #7068866
| Really interesting thread...thanks everyone!!! The idea of cloned lab-raised slabs of meat (what kind?) sounds perfectly draconian... "They" can't even factory raise 'real' cows correctly...how will they do in a laboratory?... With any luck my ashes will be adding potassium to something wonderful when that is happening!!!
I personally am very careful NOT to use in or on my body anything made in China/raised in China/grown in China...and I try to stay away from all farm raised food. We sailed thru the bays in Chile where the salmon farms would completely sterilized a bay with their antibiotics and hormones. Nothing would grow in them...so the farm moved to another cove...raping the inland waters. Atlantic Salmon (as it is euphemistically labeled) is NOT good for us...nor the world...but they make a lot of money from farming, and our fishing industry in Alaska is on the rocks!!!!
And...I get little 'whifs' of hope out there...reading about the changes in San Francisco with farmers markets and folks growing their own...and all thru the country. Hopefully the whiffs will become puffs and soon a gale when the plastic food is a lesser danger and our meat is raised on grass in happy meadows. Madison Avenue has convinced everyone they are far too important and too busy to cook... Isn't it sad that many men and women can't cook and have never eaten a vegetable? Where billboards say "Catsup is not a vegetable"...oh dear...
Carol |
gloria125
Greensboro, AL
September 16, 2009
08:49 AM Post #7069859
| My older brother actually told me that he thought he was getting enough vegetables because he put pickles on his hamburger.
'Pickles prevented scurvey in the ships at sea, you know' - he said.
There are people who don't know what a vegetable is. |
