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I read this article about a vote in Seattle that, had it passed, would have made consumers pay 20 cents for every bag (both paper and plastic) they received from grocery stores. Most of the money raised would have gone to city recycling and environmental education programs.
20 cents a bag seems a little steep to me, but I applaud the concept and I think that just the fact that this made it to a vote probably did a lot to increase awareness about how wasteful we can be when it comes to things like grocery bags.
So now I'm curious. Has your city or county thought of similar proposals? Would you pay 20 cents a bag or do you already bring your own bag with you when you buy your groceries?
I would actually pay $1.00 a bag as long as it really did go to to city recycling and environmental programs. However, due to the cost and to reduce waste, I certainly would be inclined to bring as many reusable tote bags as possible. I would still have a couple things go in paper bags just so I could support the program effort though.
We shop at Target a lot. I get funny looks when I hand the cashier all my previous Target bags. We have reused the same bags for months now. As you say, if people had to pay for bags, etc., they would definitely think twice about reusing their existing bags or invest in those canvas totes, etc.
To coincide with that, there should also be a dollar fee for a shopping cart and if you want your dollar back badly enough, you will return it to where it is supposed to go. They do this in England and as a result you rarely see a group of 10 shopping carts sprawled out over good parking spaces.
My town currently has no such program, but a few towns over they are debating banning plastic outright, and just this morning the regional newspaper had an editorial supporting the ban. There is one town in the area that banned plastic bags last year, and this town which is currently considering it borders the first town. Hmm, I haven't heard anything about the existing ban and it's consequences, opinions, results, etc...
Many of the local stores, however, do give you a credit if you reuse bags or bring your own. The store I shop at the most often gives me five cents credit per bag. And just yesterday the cashier was training a new person, and I heard her say there is a different code for people re-using plastic bags - I guess they only get three cents, lol. Perhaps the store is trying to get people to use canvas/reusable bags instead of just re-using plastic bags??
Not sure how that shopping cart thing would go over here, lol...
The Pathmark supermarket near us used to have a cart-return system; you inserted a quarter to unlock the cart and of course you got it back when you returned it. France uses the same system, at least at the Intermarchés, but in that case it's one euro. I don't know whether it stops thefts of carts but it does help to keep the parking lot clear.
Our Shoprite offers 5 cents for each canvas bag and 2 for each plastic that you re-use. I have a mixture of insulated bags from Trader Joe's and string bags from France that I bring, but sometimes I still get one or two paper bags from them because I use them in my kitchen wastebasket. I have tried bringing a bag in to other stores but sometimes I'm told that I have to use their bag, I suppose to show that I've been through the checkout and have paid what I owed! I never thought of bringing back their own bags but that could get complicated since I shop at a lot of different places.
Both supermarkets in my nearest town now charge a 5 or 10 cents for plastic bags to encourage customers to either re-use old plastic bags or to use fabric re-usable bags. One supermarket gave away unlined canvas bags to customers before starting to charge, now they both sell fabric re-usable bags. Zellers department store also gives its customers extra loyalty points for bringing a bag. When I'm going to the mall I carry a couple of plastic bags folded up in a side zip-pocket of my purse, and use them when I buy small items like books or cosmetics, but sometimes I'm too slow and the cashier has already bagged my purchase before I can reach for the zipper on my purse. I've never been told I can't use my own bag because it doesn't have the store logo. I would protest if that happened to me! As long as you have the receipt for your purchase, to prove you paid, it shouldn't matter how it's wrapped, or even not wrapped at all.
You're right, it shouldn't matter, but sometimes it's not worth arguing about. I'd probably have to talk to the manager; cashiers usually don't have the authority to deviate one iota.
Even if they've already started bagging, I tell them I have my own and to use that one for the next customer. Usually they will...
Our little town of 600 or so doesn’t have a grocery store but the next town does have a China Mart. I’ve never thought to ask, but I have the feeling they wouldn’t care one way or the other.
We use canvas bags though. I enjoy the irritated looks we get from the check out clerk while they try to figure out how to bag the stuff without using that twirly thing they keep the plastic bags on.
I am not a regular in this forum so please forgive what may be ignorant views or opinions. :)
I wonder if any of the cashiers (and I've no clue) but I wonder if they ever wish they didn't have to handle people's re-usable bags, what with society being all about hand gel these days? You could say they have to handle cash but I've rarely seen a cash transaction, most people use plastic, even if it is just debit.
I also feel I already have paid for that bag with my purchase. The store doesn't eat that cost. They roll their operating costs into the cost of the products. Now if products were to see a decrease in cost based on providing your own bag I wonder if that'd get more people to pony up for the cloth bags? Just a thought...
While I don't think plastic is the best choice, in our home we do bag all our trash in plastic bags. I buy liners for the tall kitchen can and big bags for yard waste. But store bags are ideal sizes for lining small wastecans. Yes, you could forgo a liner but in a bathroom no thanks.
I heard a story (was it NY?) that was going to charge for bags but there was no mention in the article of the money going towards a worthy cause such as this thread referenced. Rather, there, it was just one more way for them to tax and that's bogus.
To have the cost go towards city recycling seems different. A home pays to have trash pickup as with any other service. I suppose the city was suggesting that through the 20 cents residents weren't actually writing a check to the recycling company? thus making them feel they could recycle for free then?
In Houston the option to recycle often goes through your HOA and every neighborhood has one here. Some HOA's opt out for various reasons. When I moved here and asked why they didn't recycle I was told they used to. But a sour grapes company left a bad taste in residents mouths when it was discovered they charged for recycling, picked up recyclables but later dumped most back in the dump because it wasn't something they wanted to recycle, even going against their own guidelines. So now residents aren't wanting to pay for recycle pickup.
On the other hand we do have several FREE recycle drop off areas people complain are inconvenient to visit but given the amount of driving people do in our society, especially in the city, you pass by any one of these places daily. One such place to recycle is by dropping your store plastic bags off at a bin at most stores we have, at least here. I am wondering, is having more street noise and truck emissions by having curbside recycling the answer?
I believe a better answer to the 3 R's lies in the reducing. I think most people ignore trash production. We are a family of 4 yet often have less than 1 can full set out of trash while neighbors have more bags than their trash can can hold, they just pile the bags to the street. They toss what look to be perfectly useable goods that they could have given for free on sites like craigslist and freecycle??? I am aghast at it all. I'm not sure why people's trash cans are just so dang full?! How about just an extra tax on trash waste. Or a one/two/three can limit? Or a special charge just for big trash pickup. In Houston the city doesn't do the trash pickup, it's private companies. If a city could impose a tax that the store has to charge for bags then certainly a city could have a private trash company charge for the other. Opps, shhhh, "they" might like that idea hehe. :)
Our neighborhood is considering recycling again and the company they bid said they'd charge 30 grand a year from just our neighborhood. Aren't companies able to resell recycled goods? I am wondering why it costs or costs what it does then to recycle. I mean recycling is cheaper than trash pickup by far. So if you are having LESS trash hauled why is trash pickup so much more expensive? If the recyclables are resold then why is there a cost to that, donating your goods in essence? Operating costs? Wouldn't that be added into the cost of the recycled good?
There are lots of great recycled products. Rubber tire mulch. Broken glass (yet smooth as granite countertops). Etc. These products are no cheaper than their counterparts that aren't recycled right?
Again, my apologies for any ignorance in my questions. I'm just trying to sort this solution out. TIA.
I think most people are just lazy or have a let the other guy do it attitude. I do agree with the why pay for recycling. If I have to do all the work of separating it why should I have to pay someone, who is going to sell it and make money, to pick it up? But I guess that’s the mentality of the day … money.
We don’t generate enough trash to recycle anyway. What we do have I generally separate into different piles, mostly plastic and metal, and let the junk collectors have it. That’s how most of them supplement their incomes around here.
I’m not a greenie or a tree hugger by any means but I do like to think I may be doing some good by using my canvass bags. But I still enjoy aggravating the clerks. (grin}
lizards, thank you for the kind reply. yes, I used to be all for recycling myself. but the older I get the more questions I have. reducing waste is my primary method of saving the planet. besides being a gardener of course ;)
You may see a lot more of the waste reduction in the future. We have become a throw it away and buy a new one society. However with the economy going south I think a lot of us will change to a fix it and/or reuse it society before long. I know I have started saving stuff that normally would get tossed just because I might find a use for it later. Won’t be long before everyone is going to be pinching pennies.
"...I believe a better answer to the 3 R's lies in the reducing..."
I agree absolutely, but to get people to reduce, you have to make them AWARE. So many people are completely unaware of the waste they produce, and think nothing of where it goes. Comes back to that old question - where exactly is "away" when you throw something away?
To that end, I believe the minimal charge on bags does make people aware. Perhaps if they are charged per bag, they won't use three plastic bags for four items.
(True story - I once, after asking for paper bags, and no bag for my milk- got FIVE plastic bags when I bought four items. The bagger not only put my milk in a bag, but double-bagged it, then put my chicken separately, my manilla envelopes, sealed in plastic wrap, in a separate bag, and then my cottage cheese in another. (I never could understand the hysteria over chicken when the chicken is wrapped and so are the other items I buy!) I was so ticked, I wrote an e-mail to the store and haven't been back since. And also, I just kept the bags because if I had re-bagged and given them back to the bagger, they would have been immediately tossed into the trash. At least I tried to re-use them after bringing them home.)
Anyway, I do think charging such a minimal amount will make people stop and think. Seems you have to hit people in the pocketbook to make them change their ways. For many people, it has to affect them personally before they take action. In order to get him to conserve water, I had to sway my DH with images of the well and/or worse, our ancient septic system, crashing and needing repair, just to get him not to use so much water, lol. But it worked.
As far as cashiers handling used/reused bags, I work at a library and we re-use plastic bags all the time, for when people take out a lot of stuff. For the most part, the bags are clean (we even have patrons bring them to us for re-use, as well as the employees bringing them in, and everyone is pretty good about only re-using clean ones). I would imagine if folks are bringing them in the store for their own use, they would be fairly clean.
I understand what you mean, Tir Na Nog, about the neighbors and their amount of trash. As a family of four, and one who practices reducing, who composts (including paperboard boxes) and recycles, and who freecycles/craiglists everything possible, we put out one bag of garbage per week. The family of five across the street have at least two CANS (which most likely means four bags total) and I can't figure out how they generare so much garbage! I'm guessing lots of prepared foods, lol.
As far as paying for recycling, well, I can't speak to the amount we pay, but it is certainly fair to pay SOMETHING. We may rinse out the containers before putting them out, but someone has to pick them up, bring them to the recycling center, sort and clean, etc. I mean, these people do deserve a salary for doing their jobs, IMO.
Okay, enough for now, lol. And Tir Na Nog, two things - welcome to this forum (I've seen you around DG, lol) and don't ever apologize for your opinions and especially not for feeling uninformed. You're perfectly entitled to them and we're glad you decided to share them with us! And that's how we all learn.
Wow, ya'll are just a blessing! Many thanks for the detailed replies, warm welcome and info.
I'm not saying a recycling company shouldn't have a fair wage. But I was wondering...if those goods can be sold into new products...??? Well it's like many your product but you are always getting the material to make it FREE. That's good for business. Yet they charge to take it. Then charge again (almost the same or MORE due to it's processing) for reselling the new product?? ? So I'm just confused by that. It goes without saying that someone may not just be in the business of recycling for it's value but for the bottom dollar.
On your true story, yep that's exactly how I've seen them bag things to! Milk is alone and double bagged (in case of bag breaking and dropping the milk), paper separate from dairy and meat stands alone. I understand the annoyance in seeing how many bags they use up but consider. The store doesn't want to use bags wastefully (most cashiers are trained in how to bag, not all but most). And for liability reasons (another problem in the world) they can't be to careful to avoid even the appearance of contaminating your food stuff you know what I mean. Likely cheaper for bags than lawsuits, even frivilous ones are pricey!
YES on reducing! It's my favorite way to help. I'm not great as far as making everything from scratch but I don't buy all the prepacked stuff for every meal and some of those foods I avoid just because they aren't the healthiest for you. I'm saying we still buy stuff but snacks like pop or chips (lots of packaging) well those are just rare because we aren't big junk eaters at all. I don't think anyone gives it much thought, as you said, as evidenced by the mounds of trash to the curb (and in my case when you have 2 trash days per week???? and you STILL have a big pile???? what is up with that?!)
I grew up there was ONE trash day. Imagine the emissions we'd save if we did that. OR better yet, people would have to stockpile their own waste and realize woah we have to many cans etc... There should be trash pickup overages hehe.
I reuse plastic bags, jars and bottles all the time but in the end, they go to the landfilll. There is another thread here, where it was posted with a credible link, that it cost 40 times more to recycle a bag than to make a new one.
There exists the technology to make food grade and presumably non food grade plastic from corn. This plastic is also biodegradable. It will never catch on until it is mandated by the government or when the price of oil goes so high that it's economically viable. Everything is always about the $.
I've had a recent incident that I need to call about. For several months, at last, my community is recycling. I cleaned out my cabinets and decided to trash some old pots and pans that were rusty, missing handles, etc. We are provided 1 bin and my understanding is that it is for plastic and metal. I have trash pick up once a week and they do the recycle bins at the same time. I'm not sure how they accomplish that because they come about 4AM and I've never seen them. Anyway, I had my bin full and it sat out by the street for weeks. I never see any others on the street but one and they never take it in. I figured they'd discontinued due to lack of participation and had decided to use the bin for a planter box. They had stuck a hand written note in there telling me that only metal cans were acceptable. That seems nuts to me.
In a past thread it was also shown that we trash billions of electronic items such as cell phones, tvs, computers, etc., and export practically all of it to third world countries for their people to pick through for recycling. There is also a lot of toxic substance in this stuff. Anyway, it's often child labor with no safeguards of any kind and then it gets incorporated into new products which they sell back to us. With all of our chronically unemployed people I don't see why this employment needs to be exported. Nobody wants to work for minimum wage but at least it would be work.
To its credit, my township is doing its best to reduce the amount of garbage going to the dump. Households are limited to one large garbage bag per week, and have 3 recycling boxes, one for paper & cardboard, one for cans, glass, & plastic containers, and one for compostables. The plastics recycling company has annoyingly posted a size limit on bottles, and refuses items that are not containers even if made of recyclable plastic (why?), so I am still sending some plastic to the dump. The compostables collection company initially insisted on paper liners for the bins, but now accepts corn-based compostable liners. I have started using the compostable liners (which I buy under the brand names 'Bio-sak' and 'Glad') for my houshold garbage too. My local pet store also sells 'Bio Bag' compostable dog waste bags (made in Norway!) that I use for scooping cat litter. I figure that if the bags are compostable, they'll rot faster at the dumpsite. I now purchase only one type of plastic bag, and that's the large, clear garbage bag that the township mandates for garbage pickup. As yet, there's no large, clear corn-based bag available.
June, I had no idea about the corn compostable bags! That is interesting. Maybe if demand for such items (by mandate or choice) increases the products cost would go down to.
twiggy, 4 am! I can't imagine. Our street is a rumble when it hits about 7 due to school buses, trash men and landscapers driving their trucks and trailers through. It's not terrible for me but wakes the tots. I can't imagine a 4 am pickup.
I agree that making people aware of the waste problem is one way to solve it. Unfortunately most, not all, but most people just don’t care. They will pay the 20 cents for the bag their new CD came in and think nothing of throwing the bag, sales receipt, and plastic wrap from the CD out the car window.
I believe more effort should be put into changing the stores attitude on waste and recycling. It worked with the burger joints to a great extent with the Styrofoam (?sp) issue. Hit them in the pocket book and see who jumps the fastest and the highest.
I’m not a fan of China Mart but Sam’s has the right idea. They don’t supply bags at all. They will give you cardboard boxes to reuse if available but that’s it and I’m not aware that it has hurt their business one iota. (Just what IS an iota anyway?) Why can’t we work on the grocery and other stores to eliminate bags also? This is the soapbox we need to be standing on. We the few, the very few unfortunately, out of millions can’t recycle enough to do a whole lot of good. On the other hand we do have the power to make a few companies take a whole lot of trash out of millions of trashcans.
Once the bags are out of the stores we can start working on individual manufacturers to cut down on the amount of packaging they use. I understand that we can’t eliminate all waste but just imagine how much trash we could keep out of our landfills a year or even a day by cutting the daily waste output by one pound times millions and millions of trashcans.
If we manage to accomplish that this old rube will have to find someone else to aggravate at the store.
Costco doesn't bag anything either - and I've rarely missed it. A few years ago they had the 'quarter per shopping cart' to get people to bring them back, but so many people were annoyed by it that it only lasted a year. I always go out of my way to put shopping carts in the corrals, but commonly see people leave them in spaces when the corral is only 20 feet away. I always say "lazy" in my inside voice.
Charging for plastic, and making it a refundable deposit is what was done in Ireland, to get people to reduce the number of plastic bags that they used. In the course of a single year, the amount of bags used was reduced by something like 85%. The country went from plastic covered to plastic friendly. Kids would gather plastic bags from the side of the roads to turn them in for the deposit and schools would collect them to make money for the school. The financial incentives were brilliant.
I personally would love to see something like that. Container recycling was a great way for us kids to make a couple bucks back in Maine, and at a nickel a can/bottle we could make a pretty substantial amount just by taking a wagon through the neighborhood and asking for the beer cans/soda cans/bottles from the neighbors. Sure it smelled funny but the money spent quite nicely.
Charging for paper would be annoying from a personal perspective. I ask for paper all the time, and then grind it up to add to my garden. The plain, ground paper makes the worms go nuts, so I would hate to lose a free source of good fertilizer. Heck, I regularly pick up the leftover free papers so that I can toss them in too. Of course, if it were part of a recycling program, then it wouldn't be so hard, though.
I believe that if there was a financial incentive (like the deposit program), that people would reduce signifigantly. Unfortunately, most of the time, consumers do not see the actual costs of what their habits are, and so do not follow through on good ways to change. My family always had a saying "Hit them where it hurts the worst - in the pocketbook", and it definitely applies to most people.
Think of it from the point of view of that person across the street. Why should he reduce and reuse things when it is less time consuming and/or costly to just toss it out? It isn't that he doesn't care about clean water or good earth - he just can't see the direct consequences of his actions. So, if you make it hurt, he will change.
Hastur all that sounds perfectly rational to me which usually means it won't happen. It seems to me that those in a position to implement policy are scared to death to of offending some faction or the other and as a result nothing gets done.
Getting kids involved would truly be helpful. It might teach them a work ethic, how to handle money, and maybe best of all, get them off their behinds and out from the tv and video games.
Around here, retired people walk the roadsides picking picking up aluminum cans. The get their exercise and a little $ too. There has to be a financial element, either reward or penalty, to motivate folks.
A charged deposit wherein the consumer can get a refund for their earth friendly choices is ideal! I just don't like when a government (city or otherwise) thinks they have just hit another source of taxable revenue for which they will fund more useless projects.
An interesting conversation. I too wish they would charge a nominal fee for the plastic. I know that cost is already built in to the cost of our food but it would just be a good reminder to people.
Because I am so forgetful and usually fail to bring my re-usable bags into the store I just have the bagger replace my items into the cart (like at Costco) and I bag them myself when I get to the car. I actually prefer doing it this way as I can choose what goes in which bag. All my cold things are always together when I bag them, etc. Also, the baggers avoid touching bags that may have been used by a person with a cold or flu.
This is why I'm a major proponent for a deposit. It makes it so much easier for the system to police itself, not to mention opens up all kinds of fun things that can be done to help out the community.
Which means you are probably right, Twiggybuds. It's too rational of an approach, and doesn't put enough revenue directly into the pockets of whomever is running it. It would fail horribly.
It occurs to me that I did not address the poster who uses the bags for his trash. While this is admirable, a reasonable deposit should not stop you from using the bags. In New England, people still use the two liter bottles for other things (water bottles, creating small planters, etc.) Yes, if they do not turn in the bottle, they lose a nickel. But a nickel is enough to make them aware, without being so much that they are hurting themselves if they don't turn it back in. I believe that a similar principle would apply to bags.
If I knew that the bags would cost me an extra... dollar?... I would insist on having them stuffed full (if I didn't use paper), and would save them up for turning in. And while I don't have kids, I imagine that if the neighborhood children could turn bags in to the school for money, that they would be canvasing the neighborhood, asking for them - just like I did when I was a kid.
The big question is "What happens after the bags are collected?" In Ireland, they are melted down and used to make other plastic stuff. Do we have the capability of doing the same, here in the states?
I saw this article on About.com and it sounded so good I thought I'd post it. It sounds like somebody got the message. A little nudge by state and even large city governments could step it up.
Green Packaging Demand On The Rise
Friday April 17, 2009
A report from the Freedonia Group, Inc., a Cleveland based industry research firm, predicts that the demand for green packaging, which is comprised of recycled content, biodegradable and reusable packaging, is projected to increase 3.4 percent annually to $43.9 billion in 2013.
Freedonia suggests that the fastest gains are anticipated for biodegradable plastic packaging and plastic recycled content packaging. Biodegradable plastic packaging is forecast to climb nearly 13 percent per year.
That is encouraging, Twiggy! It inspired me to do a little research on companies producing biodegradable plastics.
While poking around on the internet I ran across a question posted in a forum that no one had responded to with an answer. When these new plastic bags biodegrade, what do they degrade into? I'm really not scientifically oriented but I can imagine that the answer would depend upon the particular bag in question.
What I really want to know is: when the bag has biodegraded, does it leave anything behind that could be as harmful to the environment as the non-biodegradable plastics?
I'll have to do more research on this. I do know that they have made food grade plastic bottles from corn. Presumably, GM corn, that will be degraded into a better substance than the usual petroleum. The corn producers are predicting that this will be the most productive year in history per acre. The price per bushel has gone way down. I think they all jumped into it for ethanol production. Now with oil prices down from last year it's cheaper to make plastic the old way. Mercifully, at last, the automakers are thinking about electric vehicles. This would be a good time to shift a little stimulus toward companies using corn plastic packaging in the form of a SMALL tax break. That would kill 2 birds with one stone so I'm not holding my breath.
The recycled plastic will be recycled again I guess.
I probably shouldn't be saying anything without double-checking my facts, but off the top of my head I'm remembering something about "biodegradeable" plastic not being all that biodegradeable. Something to do with it breaking down into tiny bits that then get into the environment and don't break down any further...
This info about the energy consumption was surprising to me.
"The American Chemistry Council (ACC) encourages recycling plastic bags as it conserves energy by replacing virgin material necessary to manufacture of new products. In fact, it takes 91 percent less energy to recycle a pound of plastic than it takes to recycle a pound of paper, according to the ACC"
I just went through about 4 pages of google search and still haven't found any great news about biodegradable plastic in common use. The best kind takes a specific effort at the landfill to control heat and moisture and is broken down by microbes within a few weeks. The trouble is that very few landfills are equipped to deal with it. Furthermore, it costs 2 or 3 times as much to produce as the petroleum based plastic. Another problem is that it isn't good if it gets mixed in with regular plastic for recycling.
The good news is that excess plastic is recognized around the world as a major problem and many companies are working on perfecting it.
Mexico City just (this week) mandated that all plastic bags furnished within the city limits by merchants will be biodegradable. Maybe they're on to something I missed. In any case, if it works for them, it ought to be a piece of cake for us.
We get a nickel refund at the market for each bag when we bring our own. The bag we bring can be from another store, can be paper, plastic, canvas or whatever. Most of the stores sell reusable shopping bags that are made out of recylced plastic bags.
In Germany you pay alot for the shopping bags at a supermarket if you don't bring your own. When I was a child, they didn't have shopping bags available in the stores. My Oma had her market bags hanging on the door knob. We rarely left the house without bringing at least one bag with us.
I'm pretty sure that San Francisco has banned the plastic shopping bags outright.
Since we buy most of what we eat at the farmers market, we have a large collection of sturdy shopping bags to reuse. When I do go the local natural foods store to buy my grains and few other items not currently available at the FM, the cashiers always ask if I've brought my own bags when I am checking out.
My mom shops mostly at Trader Joes or Winco in her area. TJ's asks about a reusable bag. Winco bags and double bags in plastic even if you tell them you brought your own. I guess they don't get enough customers bringing their own bags to make any changes in their process.
