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Cameras and Photography: GYM WRESTLING WITH AVAILABLE LIGHT

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Forum: Cameras and PhotographyReplies: 33, Views: 323
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docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

August 20, 2009
5:42 PM

Post #6968946

I am handicapped therefore must perch in the middle of various gyms and shoot up to and about one hundred feet. Have Canon Rebel and Canon 75 -300 zoom of about $200.00 value. Am adjusting white light and pushing ISO to max 1600 per camera limit. Using tripod or mono-pod. Using sports auto with ISO selected three shots a second up to limit of twelve or so shots. Most of the time only three or four automatic three shots per second. I get some noise and frequently am out of focus. The big issue is I feel I have pushed per these conditions as hard as I can. There is nothing physically wrong with the camera when I have good lighting. My results thus far have been "good enough for family" to coin a phrase.

I am aware of the next glass level which gets scary...like several thousand bucks.

If there is anyone out there that has done any similar shooting that might have suggestions I would be more than greatfull. The pix is about as good as I have been able to achieve to date. My second year of grandson wrestling for this camera will be here all to soon. He is on target to become a state champion. Grandpa with the Rebel would like to be shooting better as this situation develops.

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hcmcdole
Powder Springs, GA
(Zone 7b)

August 20, 2009
5:55 PM

Post #6968979

It sounds like a fast lens or flash is your next step but flash will be limited by the distance you can shoot from. How close can you get to the action?

docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

August 20, 2009
6:17 PM

Post #6969051

When we get to the Regionals and States the flash is not permitted. Your opinion is that I have pushed this set up as hard as it can be pushed? If I were able to get around the edges of the mats I would be fine with my unmentioned very good flash unit. The available light is usually better at closer range. Without paying professional fees one does not get closer than fifty feet and more which was the basis of my question. That does not help me. I can not move about to get closer in most instances.
hcmcdole
Powder Springs, GA
(Zone 7b)

August 20, 2009
6:26 PM

Post #6969085

Yes you have pushed it about as hard as you can. I don't know about the Rebel but there may be a function setting to push the ISO to 3200 which would double your shutter speed vs. ISO 1600 but would you be comfortable with more noise? If you cannot use flash (the 580EX II is an excellent flash by the way), then it sounds like your only recourse is a faster lens but how much would you be willing to spend?


docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

August 20, 2009
6:47 PM

Post #6969162

I do not believe there is a Rebel button to increase ISO. I would have to do some good management and pray the stock market comes back to make the glass an issue that would be possible. Push comes to shove and I choose to not move up I could hire a pro to shoot the important matches. Time is on my side and in time this mess our finances are in should look better. My health may have to play into the equasion too.

I wish we could rent a good used glass befor we think of jumpping off the cliff. Our area does not have a very good shop. I usually snoop about B & H. I think two or three gran is where the good fast glass begins to be found.
roybird
Santa Fe, NM

August 20, 2009
9:26 PM

Post #6969650

There is an ISO button on my Canon Rebel XS. Which one do you have? ISO might be on a menu somewhere if not on it's own button. I like the pictures you are getting now. It is a shame that we can't rent lenses or cameras to try out. But, can you imagine all the hassles about damages and so forth?
hcmcdole
Powder Springs, GA
(Zone 7b)

August 20, 2009
9:48 PM

Post #6969725

On the 20D and 40D there is a menu option to expand the ISO to 3200. I am guessing the same option is on the Rebel too?
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

August 20, 2009
10:49 PM

Post #6969952

I have the Rebel XTi. Just went through the whole menu. Seperate menu for ISO goes to 1600 only.

That picture is average. I have some better and lots that are worse. Understand that I just got into this upgrade about a year ago. This pix out there aproximately 100 ft. Out of a couple hundred shots I can usually find ten to twenty good. Very good seems to escape me at the longer distances.

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docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

August 20, 2009
10:54 PM

Post #6969962

This is the distance...the width of a high school football field in good light. Same glass as the above two pix.

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docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

August 20, 2009
11:08 PM

Post #6970004

I'm toying with the challenge to equip a handicap scooter with tripod for football side running. Do not have official authority to do this yet. I could cheat and acquire a local paper press pass. Still do not know about the scooter thing. Again if we get beyond league games the rules change. I do not yet have any under the outside lights shooting experience. I would think the same challenges will apply under outside night lighting.
hcmcdole
Powder Springs, GA
(Zone 7b)

August 20, 2009
11:30 PM

Post #6970065

I would think outside night lighting would be about the same as indoors but the only way to find out is to go to a night game and try it.

Anway, those pictures look plenty good to me. I know with sports that using the high speed mode captures a lot of action and that there are a lot of throwaways which is okay too (the pros do this as well I've read). I found out that it's not always about the action. Sometimes it's the beginning, the rest periods, and the end that are the real keepers. You might want to use a camcorder for the actual competition.

roybird
Santa Fe, NM

August 21, 2009
12:19 AM

Post #6970221

Yes, I think your pictures are very good. If you go to sporting events often it might be worth it to invest in a better lens or a scooter but I'm not sure you could get much better pictures. I throw away lots of pictures and probably ought to throw out more! Doc, my ISO is 1600, too. I don't think I have used it that high yet.
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

August 21, 2009
12:41 AM

Post #6970297

You are right but I like the still shot challenge. Thanks for the nice words and time you have extended holding my hand.

My son has a decent camcorder that used to be mine. He uses it more than I would. That would cost me dearly too. LOL Hate to be at the top of the bottom or the bottom of the top as some say the cream of the crap. I can and will use that big fast glass we talked about for other shooting I enjoy doing...when the timing is right.

Last winter at one wrestling match I moved in beside the local newspaper sports photographer one time. He was a friendly cuss. He covered his extra glass and moved away. They post and sell from their posts. No learning opportunity there unless I can come up with some beer money. Grapevine is they get bonus money when their pix sell.
He will be covering my grandson this year...two years undefeated through our states Regional matches. A potential state champion in the nations largest and best wrestling competition.

I'm not asking for much. I just want to arrive as a good shooter yesterday skipping the years of practice the really good ones have under their belts. And of course do it with kit quality glass. LOL
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

August 21, 2009
12:53 AM

Post #6970339

Santa Fe...love your area. Visited there many years ago on my way home from Philmont the Boy Scout Ranch. Panned for gold on the slopes of Old Baldy. Got a little too! Chased a Rocky Mountain Canary all over those hills for two weeks. I had eight teen aged boys out there on tour. Those pix are all on slides shot with an Argus C3. Nice little box. A bear took a bite out of the box it was in. Our guide said it was the chlorides in the PVC the sucker liked. Did not kill the camera. Glad it was on the table not in my tent. LOL

Appreciate your critique. Maybe I am wishing for a bit to much. Maybe another year's experience will help too.
roybird
Santa Fe, NM

August 21, 2009
8:54 PM

Post #6973404

Good story. That Philmont Boy Scout Ranch attracts bears like nowhere else on the planet! Let us know how your grandson does with his wrestling.
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

August 21, 2009
10:29 PM

Post #6973728

The grandson is 105 lbs soaking wet, is 14 years old, plays three sports (two really well), is a great young musician and is a National Honor Society student. He creates activity so fast my camera and I have a time trying to catch up. First student in his school to go all of seventh grade and eighth grade undefeated up to and including our regional state tournmant. Considering all the wrestlers our region is #11 best in the state. The state is outstanding if not the best in the nation. The big attraction here is Penn State and Iowa State two of the best. Now Penn State has captured the Iowa State coach and several of his best assistants. Our grandson trains and wrestles a lot in view of the Penn State personell. He will be wrestling State College High School for the next four years. We shall be in that areas fine summer wrestling camps. We shall be rubbing elbows where one needs to rub elbows. It will not hurt at all if he keeps on training others to read the ceiling. LOL
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

December 28, 2009
12:48 AM

Post #7402772

It's that time of the year again. I solved some of my problems going manuel with
F125 to stop most of the movement, all else automatic and Photo Shop CS4 to photo manage the best savers.

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docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

December 28, 2009
12:53 AM

Post #7402787

Oops! Set F125 and ISO 1600 all else automatic and photo managed. I am pleased at this moment while knowing better glass would help me a lot.

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docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

December 28, 2009
1:00 AM

Post #7402798

To get these three shots and a few more I shot in the repeating mode three shots a second up to two dozen shots per press of the button. I totaled some sixty to seventy shots in just one match to cover the action. Culled them down to six or eight and photo managed only those few. Many of the culls were good duplicates.

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docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

December 30, 2009
3:14 AM

Post #7408544

Guys and gals...certainly I know the difference. My brains just simply do not sometimes function as I wish they would. LOL The 125 above is shutter speed...all else automatic. I'm 74. That's my excuse and I am sticking to it.
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

January 27, 2010
10:00 PM

Post #7503082

Have been able to get in there a little closer. It makes a big difference.

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docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

January 29, 2010
3:00 PM

Post #7508496

The young wrestler is doing very well. He has lost just one league match while maintaining a 90% pin ratio. Actually he won one and lost one with the same lad. That kid was highly ranked also having made it to the high school state tournaments last year.
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

January 29, 2010
11:12 PM

Post #7510021

I see that I have a brighter than desired shoulder. Several ways to deal with that. Sorry I did not see the shoulder before I published the picture. Next time I'll try to be a bit more alert.
Early_Bloomer
Springboro, PA
(Zone 5a)

January 30, 2010
6:22 AM

Post #7511195

Hi Doc...I ran across this and thought of you. The photographer has a blog with tips for shooting indoor sports.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/unifiedphoto/4313375792/


early_bloomer
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

January 30, 2010
7:47 PM

Post #7512616

Thanks for that link to the sports photography article. I can find not a single word of his article to argue about. The guy knows his business.
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

April 20, 2010
12:58 PM

Post #7721539

With a lot of help and suggestions my Rebel is learning to shoot gym wrestling a lot sharper and a good bit better. Here is the end of this seasons work. I continue to work with the kit lens that are considered low end.
Now shooting at ISO 1600, bounced ceiling flash, focus censors shut down to one in center of group and of course the tripod when possible. This shot at about 75 feet with 75 X 300 zoom lens.

I will continue with this glass until I feel I have maxed out the possible best. Then I shall put my hand on my wallet. To answer the famous Capital One advertisement..." I know what's in my wallet". LOL

Thumbnail by docgipe
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hcmcdole
Powder Springs, GA
(Zone 7b)

April 20, 2010
2:11 PM

Post #7721726

Looks pretty good doc. I can't imagine a bounced flash helping any in a gym unless you have a Whopper of a flash. Eventually a fast lens ($$$) will probably help the most if you are still unhappy with your setup.
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

April 20, 2010
4:35 PM

Post #7722114

Thanks...It all comes down to money and experience. I don't think the money is well spent until the experience indicates the timing is right. I'm 74 and have whopping medical expense to balance with the normal desires for excellent glass. More or less I am a learner with time to learn and experiment. For instance I just bought a car carrier and high end scooter to get me up the ramps and into the gyms. Can't shoot anything if I can not access the gym. That had to come ahead of glass.

Three sources of help have moved me along. First this thread and other online help. Second a DVD by Doug Jensen specifically designed to the use of kit quality shooting while learning the basics and a great guy I just met along the way who has forty years of shooting wrestling. I've melded a lot of coaching to arrive at today. I thank all who have tossed opinion and tips. There is not a lot if any local help which has become available to me.

My flash is the Canon 430 EX. Depending on the gym ceiling I can get some lighting bounce softly noticable maintaining a 200 speed. Wrestling shoots well at that speed...most of the time. I mix it up between single shot and the auto continous series of three a second.
blupit007
Clinton, CT
(Zone 6b)

June 1, 2010
8:29 PM

Post #7850580

Hi Doc,

I shot all sorts of highschool sports for years for the news paper. Indoors is tough!! But there is a place you can rent equipment.

http://www.hdcamerarentals.com/

I read the top of this forum, didn't read it all, so I don't know if your equipment problem was solved, but thought I would help. Good luck. Sports shooting is fun.
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

June 2, 2010
4:22 AM

Post #7851031

This rental firm charges about 10% of retail per day plus insurance and shipping. There is no credit from rental if purchase is made within a given number of days. One would have to have excellent professional need for this to be attractive. Evaluation made on the only Canon item showing at this time.

I have had major health issues which have delayed the immediate interest in fast quality glass. Thank you so much for the referral to a rental firm.

pbyrley

pbyrley
Port St Lucie (+ Wk , FL
(Zone 9b)

December 27, 2010
7:16 AM

Post #8278612

I presume you are still looking at BH and others but have you looked locally for used complete sets with a Canon that has the iso 3200 capability and maybe a faster lens also. Might be cheaper than a new really fast lens. Are you using digital? I don't know about Canon. I still putter with a couple of 35mm cameras. I can buy used glass pretty cheaply but haven't had the need.

Good luck,

Paul
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

December 27, 2010
11:07 AM

Post #8278947

Paul...I have upgraded from kit lens to: Canon 17 X 55 f/2.8 IS and 70 X 200 f/2.8 IS II. This gives me two to four stops more light to work with. I am into the first third of the new wrestling season and have achieved much improvement. Here is a sample. The IS lenses are not discounted much even second hand. B & H gave me excellent service and better pricing than I could find other well known sources. I have reversed my position and will if needed add flash as a fill light. Every one else is using flash in the gyms. I can shoot without now but still have to push exposure in CS4 post management. The better lenses are the only answer I could find. It did not hurt at all that the stock market improved for me. LOL

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docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA
(Zone 5a)

January 23, 2011
6:39 PM

Post #8326672

Now in the middle of the season. As I have been more patient looking for great action or faces I believe I have improved. Here is an example of this periods work.

Thumbnail by docgipe
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P_Edens

P_Edens
Willis, TX
(Zone 8b)

January 26, 2011
4:15 PM

Post #8332141

My DH shoots high school football. Those stadiums at night are horrendous, so I know what you are going through. But, I think your photos are marvelous! And that you are doing this with the Rebel and 75 to 300 is really remarkable.

I just have a couple of things to add based on reading through the thread...

You can rent one of the high dollar lenses and just see what you can do with it. We rent lenses all the time. There is a local shop in Houston where we rent and we also rent from this place: http://www.lensrentals.com/

We have had excellent service from the on-line rental shop. They get the lens to you when promised or a day earlier and they make it very easy to pack it up and send it back - everything you need in the box. Highly recommended. Of course, you might get spoiled and then have to part with the bucks to buy one. :O)

I'm not recommending this you understand, but there is a hack out there that you can use to change the firmware on your Rebel to make it go to ISO 3200. It also enables spot metering and a few other features that Canon has disabled. Just do a search for Canon xti ISO 3200 hack and you will find a ton of info. When I had the first Rebel that Canon ever made, I used the hack that was available at that time and it worked great. Canon said that using the hack would invalidate the warranty, but I didn't care since I had already had it for over a year. Canon tried to sue the guy that wrote and distributed the hack, but from what I understood, they were unsuccessful since he was giving it away for free. If he had been selling it, they might have been able to successfully sue him, but not since it was free. That was quite some time ago though, and I don't know what the legality of it all is now.

Regards,
Patti

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