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Sustainable Alternatives: Organic v. Nearly Organic - Warning - Long

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Forum: Sustainable AlternativesReplies: 16, Views: 219
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Hastur
Houston, TX

August 27, 2009
12:02 PM

Post #6994345

Before you start reading, be warned. This is going to be a bit long, is full of personal opinons, and will possibly annoy a few of you. But it's been on my mind for a few days.

I recently talked to my father up in Maine. After verifiying that he was alive and well, that the Hurricane had not killed him or anyone we knew, and after a couple of anecdotes were exchanged, we started talking about gardens, food, and government - as we have a tendency to do.

In the process of our discussion, I found out that a couple friends of the family were going to have to either stop selling the food that they made, or figure out a way to do it VERY differently. Problem is, they were organic farmers - small scale only and not 100% organic.

Essentially, they had three 100X100 foot plots that they would grow on. During any given year two were producing food and one was covered with buckwheat as a cover crop, to let it rest. I've been to the farm and can testify that they grew some of the richest, most beautiful, tasty and amazing vegetables and fruits you can imagine. The soil is black and smells like what earth should smell like.

As part of how they grow things, they get horse manure filled hay from a nearby friend, sawdust from another friend, and chicken manure from yet another friend. All these things are received from bartering - some produce in trade for the products that would probably go to waste anyway.

Naturally, there is a ton of food that comes out of this garden set up, so they have been making a living for several years by selling the produce to high end restaurants. This worked great as they could get a good price for the food, and the restaurants could make some seriously delicious meals.

Unfortunately, this may all go downhill.

The restaurants are now demanding an organic food system because that is what the customers want. However, our friends cannot get an organic certification because they cannot guarantee that their stuff is organic. It costs a LOT more to get certified organic seeds, to start. In and of itself, that wouldn't be a big deal as they are already old hands at saving seeds, but there are other factors:

- The surrounding lands are not growing organically, so there is some inevitable contamination - usually from a little drift of pesticide or whatever. They do have a tree break between their land and the neighbors, but that is not a guarantee.
- In order to grow organically and sell according to the rules, they need to get a ridiculous amount of insurance, because they are not using the very things that people are wanting them to avoid.
- The wonderful manure sources are not certified organic. The chickens get some regular grain feed, the horses eat whatever they are fed, and while the sawdust does come from a lumber area, it's also 'contaminated' with dirt from the same area.

So, this brings up the question I have been wondering about - Is Organic really Worth it?

We all want to support our local and organic operations. I get that. But I keep thinking about the wonderful little farm that they have, and about how I would rather eat stuff from there - even with the bit of pesticide that might hit it - than picking up the same produce from Whole Foods even if it's been certified. I keep thinking about how the sawdust that they get might have a drop or two of oil in it because the truck that is used is older than I am, but how it makes huge and delicious potatoes and rutabaga. I'm thinking about those chickens that provide the manure, who eat grain that has whatever it is that is in laying mash that makes the chickens lay more. I'm thinking about the blackberries they get from a patch that also has wild deer running through it (lots of diseases there, right?), that they occasionally will toss ashes on - which have been produced by burning stuff like magazines and toilet paper along with the usual amount of wood that gets burned over a winter in Maine.

Organic is a lovely concept, but these people can't do it in the way that it is regulated. Attempting to meet regulations that do nothing to take into account what is happening when someone is doing the best they can, but are living with what they are given, will kill this farm. They can't even sell from a roadside stand (legally) without the mandatory payment to the protection racket (insurance).

What is someone like this supposed to do? They cannot be the only growers that hit that median between organic and non-organic. They lean on the mostly organic side of things, but they do tip their toes into the stream of "conventional" - mostly by accident. What is someone like this supposed to do?

And yes, they are working with the restaurants that they have supplied in the past, to try to get past the organic desire. But one of the very things that anyone who wants sustainability wants, is the very thing that is hurting people that live like my friends do.
twiggybuds
Moss Point, MS
(Zone 8b)

August 27, 2009
01:18 PM

Post #6994641

Sad! I would love to have access to those same inputs for my garden. My first thought is that food regulation is promulgated by people that don't know anything about the process of production and/or are intent on preserving our current big ag systems.

Those restaurant managers are only trying to give the customers what they want with truth in advertising. It's a shame that just as the demand for organic food is rising, it has become a misunderstood term. I think a new terminology is imperative. Already the Organic Certification has become adulterated by big ag buying up smaller operations and scamming the public.

Lots of small producers have adopted the terms "naturally grown" to get around the fees and paperwork required by "Organic". If those restaurants are independent, maybe, they could adopt a phrase like "naturally grown local produce" because to anyone with any sense, that's about as good as it gets.

Growing #s of people don't trust the government to oversee anything and those that are concerned about their food will seek out good looking stuff from local sources. Your friends in ME would do well to explore other marketing strategies such as CSAs, Farmer's Markets, etc. Some people are opening their farms on certain days and selling from their own property. Yes, insurance is a problem, along with licenses, collecting sales tax, etc. Maybe their prices will have to rise. I think the whole thing is in flux right now and something will have to give.


DiggerDee
Ffld County, CT
(Zone 6b)

August 28, 2009
12:50 PM

Post #6997959

Hastur, I will admit to reading your post fairly quickly as I am pressed for time at the moment, and I really should probably wait till later and re-read, think some more, and then post, but I was very interested in what you had to say.

I agree that farmers like these are caught in the middle. I do think something has to be done to help them out. However, I have no problems (for the most part) with the strict regulations iin place to be certified organic. That is what makes me able to trust the certified organic label.

I think what needs to be done is a major review of all organic regulations, make changes where necessary, and also to find a way to make it so it is not so expensive for farmers to comply.

There is a new label going around, a voluntary one - Naturally grown? Or something like that where the participating farmers sign a pledge to follow rules which are similar to the certified organic rules but this doesn't require the $$$$. (not to be confused with some big company just slapping "naturally grown" on their label) Of course, the issue of trust comes in for the consumer, but again, a small local farm is something you can validate on your own.

I agree with Twiggy that the farmers you post about should find other marketing outlets. I think in this new environment of people becoming concerned about their food, the farmers should be able to find new markets to sell their goods.
nedweenie
Windsor, CT
(Zone 6a)

August 28, 2009
04:28 PM

Post #6998757

Just goes to show that "locally grown" should be the emphasis, not necessarily "Organic".

Small scale farmers just can't swing big "O" Organic, due to many of the issues that you listed there. It's just not going to be 100% pure.

And, naturally, there's the question of how "green" some food or another is, if it needs to travel from CA to ME to get on a table.

Your father's friends should tell the restaurant that any of their customers are welcome to stop by and see what they do there. Or have one of those on-site-at-the farm dinner parties that are becoming popular.

Hopefully something realistic can be worked out. Or they may have to rethink their market, and change who they sell to accordingly. Fortunately, there are more options now than previously. But it's a real shame that they're getting squeezed like that because they're not big O Organic. (BOO!)
DiggerDee
Ffld County, CT
(Zone 6b)

August 28, 2009
08:19 PM

Post #6999491

"Your father's friends should tell the restaurant that any of their customers are welcome to stop by and see what they do there. Or have one of those on-site-at-the farm dinner parties that are becoming popular"

Good ideas! Or have the restaurant owners/chef come by and check things out.
locakelly
Phoenix, AZ
(Zone 9a)

August 28, 2009
08:31 PM

Post #6999545

Hastur, I'm originally from Maine and I know they grow some awesome food up there with that fresh clean air and all. I certainly hope it works out for your father's friends. There are a few farmers out here that are in the same boat and don't want to pay the money to be certified, but I can tell you they have a huge customer base that trusts them and their growing methods and that's what counts.

Keep us posted as this is a very intriguing issue . . .

Kelly
twiggybuds
Moss Point, MS
(Zone 8b)

August 29, 2009
03:31 AM

Post #7000509

I was reading an article that briefly discussed how Germany is attempting to deal this matter. Instead of concentrating on "organic" they are concentrating on sustainability which is what's important.

The Technical University of Munich developed some software that grades each farm on a voluntary basis. It considers ecology, economics and social matters to achieve a balance. That means no harm to the environment, a return on investment, fair living for the farmer and any workers and decent treatment any animals. That sounds good to me and I really think that would be acceptable to most people.

I really think all the experts we have on our payroll at the USDA could come up with some reasonable numbers and methodology if they wanted to that don't stymie free enterprise. Like Digger posted above, our current rules need reworking.

"The German Agricultural Society has already set up a certification system according to European DIN norms based on these scientific results. If a tested enterprise can meet its target values, it receives the certificate “Sustainable Farming – Fit for the Future.” The food industry is also employing the new indicator model. Two large-scale bakery enterprises have already used it to test how sustainably their grain suppliers operate."

“Sustainable Farming – Fit for the Future.” That catchy little slogan sounds real good to me. I bet if the folks in ME put a sign out by the road with that and a phone #, they could have instant customers, maybe a CSA start up.


locakelly
Phoenix, AZ
(Zone 9a)

August 29, 2009
03:04 PM

Post #7001905

Great post twiggybuds. That is a very realistic and very achievable standard.
garden_mermaid
San Francisco Bay Ar, CA
(Zone 9b)

August 29, 2009
03:34 PM

Post #7001988

Local *and* organic/sustainable is the emphasis.

Hastur, the restaurants customers are most likely demanding organic food because they are concerned about food safety and possibly nutrition. I'm a little unclear from your post as to whether this is really an insurance issue (not sure why this is such an issue in Maine for organic certification) or something else.

We have restaurants out here that serve local organic produce and are willing to work with local growers who grow organically but are no longer able to afford certification. The chefs and restaurant managers will visit the farms and review the growing methods and soil tests. A biography of the farmer and information about the growing methods is available to customers at the restaurant. So your friends may be able to work out something like this with their restaurant customers.

That being said, I see two potentially weak links that would prevent the restaurants customers from wanting to eat your friends produce, no matter how lovely it looks or tastes.

The first issue is the chicken manure from chickens on conventional feed. Hopefully the chicken manure is not coming from a confinement chicken operation. If the folks providing the chicken manure are feeding a conventional poultry feed that contains the arsenic based additive Roxarsone, then your friends garden soil may already be contaminated with arsenic. I would expect the restaurant to want to see a soil test that proves the arsenic and heavy metal content of the soil meets organic requirements. They may not need to do this every year.

The next issue is pesticide and "whatever" drift. Is some of that drift is herbicide or fungicide in addition to the pesticide? The desire to avoid these chemicals is another factor in consumers wanting organic foods.

A study of U.S. farmers showed that wives of farmers who use herbicides have a higher incidence of miscarraige and preterm labor than the general population. That study is strongly correlated with herbicide use, and is reproduced among grain farmers in other countries. The US has the highest rate of pre-term births among all industrialized nations.

Many chemical herbicides cause strong uterine contractions. A nurse of my acquaintance started having strong contractions at 36 weeks after noticing a strong chemical smell as she drove her daughter to the mall. She was several vehicles behind a spray truck that had been spraying the roadside with herbicide. She had to be air lifted from the mall to the hospital and the baby spent almost two weeks in NeoNatal ICU. (all of her earlier children were born after their due dates).

Have your friends spoken to the neighbour(s) that is the cause of the drift to alert them to the drift issue? Out here, farms are liable for any pesticide drift that comes off their farm. It can turn into a finger pointing session between the farmer who contracted for pesticide application and the company that did the application, but either way, if a neighbours crop is contaminated, the farm that caused the contamination will have to pay for the other farm's lost revenue. The courts have upheld this. Pesticide drift doesn't have to happen.

In the meantime, can your friends plant hedges or other thicket at the tree line to better capture any drift before it reaches their garden?

Calalily
South Padre Island, TX
(Zone 10a)

August 31, 2009
11:59 PM

Post #7011391

In Texas, there is a fine if drift from a farmer's field gets onto an organic operation.
I saw "Certified Naturally Grown" the other day, I wonder who certifies them?
garden_mermaid
San Francisco Bay Ar, CA
(Zone 9b)

September 01, 2009
12:33 AM

Post #7011489

Is this what you saw the other day?


Quoted:
When USDA's Organic program was implemented in 2002, many farms earning more than $5,000 per year were forced to make a difficult choice: either pay high certification fees and complete mounds of paperwork to become Certified Organic, or else give up using the word "organic" to describe their produce and/or livestock.

Believing that neither choice was very attractive, some farmers created Certified Naturally Grown to provide an alternative way to assure their customers that they observed strict growing practices. CNG strives to strengthen the organic movement by removing financial barriers to certification that tend to exclude smaller direct-market farms, while preserving high standards for natural production methods.

http://www.naturallygrown.org/

Calalily
South Padre Island, TX
(Zone 10a)

September 01, 2009
12:42 AM

Post #7011520

Yes, and a nursery where I want to buy strawberry plants has certified naturally grown on their website. Nourse Nursery, I think they're in Maine.
DiggerDee
Ffld County, CT
(Zone 6b)

September 01, 2009
03:13 PM

Post #7013652

GM, I think that's the thing I was referring to up above, the alternative to being certified organic. Thanks for posting that. I couldn't remember what it was called.
judytn41
Petersburg, TN

September 21, 2009
11:51 AM

Post #7087595

I can sympathize with the poster's parents, but things will be getting much more strict than it is now, with the new Food Safety and Security Bill that is about to go before the Senate. The FDA will be in charge of bringing farms, large and small into compliance with this bill. There will be farm audits done, and substantial penalties incurred for not being compliant.

Our farm is Certified Organic. My husband is 71, I am 67, and we have but one farm helper (until last week when he left for a better job opportunity working for his Dad). If you want to use the word Organic, you have to become Certified, there is no way around it.It is a Federal offense to use the "O" word unless you are certified, with one exception that I know of. It took us 3 years to decide to commit to the extra record keeping,learning the rules and regulations, and paying the fee associated with Certifying. But, keeping records is something most farms do anyway to give them an accurate reading on their profits/losses. We like the idea of being inspected by an objective 3rd party, instead of a farmer friend as is done in CNG. We feel this could be somewhat awkward We do have a friend that is a CNG farmer and he is ok with that. I think it depends on how you feel about it after having researched both options.

Restaurants and grocery stores generally require that you furnish them with proof of Organic Certification. If you choose not to go that route, there are many options for them so all is not lost. Farmers Markets, Farm Stands, CSA, (though you have to be able to commit to being able to grow enough to feed folks for a full season), Agritourism, Roadside stands, and more. I would also encourage them to use cover crops instead of animal manure.This is a great way to feed the soil. Its true that animal manure has been used for years in gardens, but as time passes it seems that we are learning more and more about practices used for years now, have come back to bite us in the you know what!

Most states now have a Cost-Share program whereby they will pay a large percentage of the Certifying fee for the farmer to encourage certification. This may be of help to them. It would be worth looking into for them. There are also conferences that they can attend to learn about Certification-- and scholarships made available to those that can't afford it on their own. These are only my opinions and ideas, and each farm has to decide what is best for them. I wish the poster of the item's parents good luck in whatever direction they choose to go.
Hastur
Houston, TX

September 23, 2009
02:59 PM

Post #7096558

I've aimed my friends at this site, because there are a lot of really good ideas on here.

I think that part of what is annoying is the catch 22 that we are in: We want a way to guarantee that the food we eat is what we want it to be, but in order to do so, there is more and more regulation every time you turn around. But we also want less regulation in our lives, but that kills the ability to really know what you are getting, sometimes.



garden_mermaid
San Francisco Bay Ar, CA
(Zone 9b)

September 23, 2009
11:13 PM

Post #7098192

Sadly that is what happens...sigh...when a really good idea or method comes around or becomes popular, there is always someone out there that wants to make a quick buck by taking shortcuts or not really doing as intended. This creates a hassle for those who are producing with truly good intent. All the more reason to know your farmer/grower/producer.
twiggybuds
Moss Point, MS
(Zone 8b)

September 24, 2009
06:02 AM

Post #7098705

I agree. I think I'm positively getting paranoid in my old age re: food. I just keep thinking what a good thing it is that I like to garden anyway because, after learning of what's going on, I'd hate to have to start scrambling from scratch to grow my own.

I've been spending a lot of time exploring better ways for next season. I'm so tired of drying peppers I could scream. But I do it anyway because next year might be a crop failure. Just look at the late blight situation in the NE. I bet every tomato that makes it to market has been soaked down multiple times in fungicide.

My own weather has been crazy this year and I'm left really wondering what it will be like next year. These wild fluctuations from normal keep everything off balance. The insect and disease pressure is very different this year for me. I think the hard core folks have finally had to acknowledge that climate change is real.

Hastur I think your friends will be local heroes before long if they just hang in. I'm certainly not wishing for disaster, but I do think the day will come soon that brings major disruptions in our normal supply chains. I'm betting that necessity caused by climate change will push the paper shufflers out of the way. That, added to the heightened awareness of our ag system's shortcomings, will surely inject some sanity.

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