| Author | Content |
Jamie_Anderson
Wellington
New Zealand
September 28, 2009 7:11 AM Post #7111713
| I just don't understand why you would ferment tomato seeds at all, let alone with all the fuss it looks like.
I only came across this phenomenon this year, and it appears to be an American thing.
Can someone please explain? |
Lisse_Cornelia
Blue Haven Central C
Australia
September 28, 2009 8:37 AM Post #7111748
| I have never heard of this but I live "Down Under" in australia. I am a qualified Horticulturist and an experienced propagator. i ususally plant the whole tomato, and the juice gives it plenty of moisture to germinate seeds, being as its hot and dry here, and water is alsoways scarce. First i heard of 'fermenting' the tomato seed. Interesting though. Would like more info. thanks Lisse from Australia's beautifiul Central Coast (where the five Lakes meet)
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critterologist
Frederick, MD (Zone 6b)
September 28, 2009 8:44 AM Post #7111756
| Fermentation may increase germination %... more importantly to me, it destroys pathogens that might be present on the seed.
Planting the whole tomato most likely results in "in situ" fermentation. :-) I don't do it on purpose, but I do get a few volunteer plants each year, especially where cherry tomatoes have dropped some of their little fruits around. |
CLScott
Calgary
Canada
September 28, 2009 10:18 AM Post #7111820
| I do not ferment tomatoe seeds. After separating them from the gel on a paper towel, they are placed in a tea strainer and washed thoroughly under running water. I wash all tomatoe seeds now. One batch of commercially obtained seeds would not germinate.
After washing thoroughly the seeds did germinate. The germination inhibitors are in that gel and seeds germinate better when it is removed. At least that is my current understanding.
Caroline |
amideutch
Albersbach
Germany
September 28, 2009 12:08 PM Post #7111979
| For the home gardener who doesn't grow very many varietes or trade alot of seeds I'm sure this method will work as long as fungus or mold doesn't develop on the paper towel. But seeds do need to be pathogen free and the only way to do that is through fermentation or a soak in a solution of bleach and water. Some folks even use chlorinated scouring powder to clean their seeds and kill any pathogens at the same time.
For me I ferment my seeds and then clean the seeds in a solution containing TSP (TriSodiumPhosphate) which removes any residue left on the seed and also aids in the further removal of any remaining pathogens.
The paper towel method just isn't practical for people who save and trade alot of seeds. And what you have on a paper towel I and can put in a 2x3 inch ziplock. |
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA (Zone 5a)
September 28, 2009 1:17 PM Post #7112114
| I'm not sure any fermintation is of any great value since the big box stores have spread the dreaded potato and tomato fungi from sea to shining sea. Fermintation was in place to destroy pathogens.
Unless you are willing to spread three or four different fungicides in rotation starting at the third new leaf stage there will be great difficulty growing any tomato for years to come. Selective seed saving may lead to awareness of pathegon resistent varieties.
You can bet your bottom dollar that no agency will police the commercial food processers for insecticide and fungicide in their canned goods. No one even raised the question this summer as commercial growers went to spraying as close as every three or four days to save their crops. The answer is it will all wash off in the rain and go to our seas eventually. Who is going to process the systemic fungicides that were not to be used on food crops? The answer is you and I. No thank you! |
critterologist
Frederick, MD (Zone 6b)
September 28, 2009 3:44 PM Post #7112602
| I'm trying to remember the name of the wilt that attacks seedlings.. a friend had it wipe out several hundred tomato seedlings a couple of years ago, and she traced the "epicenter" of the outbreak to a flat that was planted with unfermented seeds.
My garden was thankfully unaffected by late blight this year. I do get some early blight each year, but that's in my soil, nothing to do with the seeds I don't think.
I'll keep fermenting seeds and trading with people who do the same, just to increase my chances of success. Maybe it's unnecessary, maybe it's not, but it's easy enough to do, and I'd rather not take chances.
Certainly, if you're saving seeds for your own use, "rinse well and dry" is a fine way to go. |
critterologist
Frederick, MD (Zone 6b)
September 28, 2009 3:55 PM Post #7112645
| I really did like the suggestion of planting seeds "towel and all." I think that would work even with my fermented seeds, as they stick fairly well to the paper towel as they dry. I usually sow seeds fairly close together in rows in a seed starting tray.. Maybe I will start spreading them in little rows on my paper towel now!
Thanks! |
Agrinerd
Franklin, NC (Zone 6b)
September 28, 2009 5:34 PM Post #7113052
| I think the wilt you're referring to is Pythium, a.k.a. Damping Off. I'm an advocate of fermentation, myself. The horrid blight we had may have come from live plants grown in infested areas, but isn't likely to have come from infected seeds. The commercial tomato producers are real sticklers about clean seed. |
heygeno
Columbus, OH
September 28, 2009 6:27 PM Post #7113214
| I stopped fermenting seeds years ago.
They sure are purdy fermented, but who cares about that ?
Now I just squeeze the seeds onto a paper plate... tip it to remove water... air dry and write the name of the tom on the plate.
I usually cut into sections that will allow to fit a sandwich bag.
It also makes it easy to send to friends.
Click the image for an enlarged view.
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critterologist
Frederick, MD (Zone 6b)
September 28, 2009 8:09 PM Post #7113624
| Actually, it was something like verticullum wilt, or fusarium wilt? Anyway, it wasn't damping off, and it affected fairly large seedlings, wilting them from the tops down as I recall.
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Horseshoe
Efland, NC (Zone 7a)
September 28, 2009 8:36 PM Post #7113729
| Bigtime "fermentor" here, too! And I love the whole process! I know w/out a doubt it increases seed germination but not because the fermentation makes a non-viable seed viable but rather because the majority of the non-viable seeds will float and be drained off w/the pulp/trash etc, leaving behind the best. When I save seed I'd like to know the ones I have are mature. As for the pathogens, fermentation only helps the ones that might be on the outside of the seed coat. (And it certainly won't help stop the "fungi", as Doc mentioned above, from spreading from plant to plant, garden center to garden center, those are soil-borne and air-borne.)
However, what Larry has written about is an easy way to save tomato seeds and no doubt about it you'll have success with it. He's also, inadvertently I think, hinted/taught ya'll how to make a "seed tape", items you now see being sold from stores. Now you know how to make your own, eh? Good going, Larry! (If you want to make seed tapes with other seeds it is easy to do, even with store-bought seeds, so perhaps that would be a great topic for another article at some point, eh?)
Jamie and Lisse, I see that this all sounds very new to you both. Please feel free to ask more questions, or you may find more info by doing a search on DG. The Tomato Forum has several "stickies" that are worth their weight in gold (or tomatoes!) that will give you great guidance.
Happy Gardening to All...
Shoe
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Agrinerd
Franklin, NC (Zone 6b)
September 29, 2009 4:42 PM Post #7116566
| Thanks for chiming in, Shoe. |
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA (Zone 5a)
September 29, 2009 11:54 PM Post #7117914
| My opinion is that an article that does not raise intellegent discussion might not be that good of an article. That makes this one very good. |
Horseshoe
Efland, NC (Zone 7a)
September 30, 2009 12:01 AM Post #7117945
| Ditto, doc!
Great article. Great discussion. Great information! Ta-dahh! ♫
Will be watching for Larry's next one!
Shoe |
LarryR
South Amana, IA (Zone 5a)
September 30, 2009 2:41 AM Post #7118522
| Aw shucks, gipe 'n shoe, I went and got me a swelled head! :-) Seriously, thanks to you both and to everyone else for your comments and lively discussion. It's a response like this from my readers that keeps me writing.
I've not had a problem with pathogens carrying over on my seeds, but if you'd like to disinfect your seeds, Ohio State University recommends soaking them for one minute at 1:4 bleach to water to sanitize seed coats. When your seeded towel is completely dry, you can soak in it the recommended bleach solution. Be sure to let the towel become completely dry again before storing. Ultra violet radiation also has a sanitizing effect. Some seed savers simply expose their seeds to sunshine for several days.
BTW if you'd like to check out shoe's fermentation method, you can do so here: http://davesgarden.com/community/blogs/t/Horseshoe/1109/. Best--Larry☼ |
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA (Zone 5a)
September 30, 2009 1:36 PM Post #7119506
| I just take the finest representative tomato from the second or third set and place it someplace to rot naturally. When it has dried up completely you have the best of two worlds. Fermentation and UV from the sun. Picking fermented seed from dried pulp and skin is simple as eating a piece of apple pie. Aside from that it is a job you can put off for a rainy day if you keep all parts dry. The use of bleach is nowhere in mother nature's plan. |
amideutch
Albersbach
Germany
October 1, 2009 11:19 AM Post #7122759
| gipe, letting it rot naturally without the fruit fly's getting to it, I don't think so. Unless you live in the desert! |
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA (Zone 5a)
October 1, 2009 3:46 PM Post #7123509
| You are right if done in the house or inclosed sun room. Done outside fruit flies are not an issue. |
Liquidambar2
Mount Vernon, KY
October 1, 2009 9:11 PM Post #7124325
| You all put me to shame!
I bought all kinds of seeds from a seed catalog this past winter. I Got all confused at what I had and what survived and what I re[planed in what did not survive in it's place.
I sure did have a lot of different stuff and it was fun, but next year.
I am going to Walmart and just buy plants!
I am so ashamed, but I just am lazy I guess. |
docgipe
NORTH CENTRAL, PA (Zone 5a)
October 2, 2009 12:35 AM Post #7124948
| The big box stores are the ones that knowlingly or unknowlingly picked up and spread the deadly potato - tomato blight from sea to shining sea this year. Apparently their sources were infected. This was called to their attention by knowing and very intellegent observers. They did not do anything zilch about it. The deadly spore are now off the farm while we the gardeners have become a part of the monoculture by virtue of helping to spread the disease.
I would never buy a plant online, from a catalog or any big box store for this reason. If you did not have the blight this year you were just lucky. So many had the blight that the spore are darn near everywhere. The contiued awsome blight is well established and there is no cure known.
Everything I have said has been published and AP supported. Those plants were carriers of the disease. That was known. The question is why were they put out on the market in the first place.
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LarryR
South Amana, IA (Zone 5a)
October 2, 2009 1:32 AM Post #7125228
| For those interested, here is more on the tomato-potato blight from the Dept. of Plant Pathology at Cornell University: http://plantclinic.cornell.edu/Pest of the month/Late Blight...
Here's more from the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/nyregion/18tomatoes.html
Finally, here is a long, detailed article that references the July 3, 2009 AP story: http://www.wtop.com/?nid=47&sid=1711167 |
Liquidambar2
Mount Vernon, KY
October 2, 2009 2:08 AM Post #7125379
| Well humm!
I had plenty of tomatoes!!!!!! I canned and canned and cannnedddd.
My mother said the newspaper said there was a blight. I never saw a blight but the season had a slowness with tomatoes getting ripe and then they petered out 6 weeks before frost. I always have them right up untill frost.
I thought the whole thing was the weather, the summer being rainy and not as hot as it should be?
Maybe me trying to start my own plants didn't help either. On top of it all, new varieties that I had never tried before.
I started my plants from seed in Jan. and they still seemed late putting on tomatoes and then getting ripe.
I sort of got upset with them and canned some green ones? We like green salsa, but I never would have bothered if they had not been so slow.
So did you have a short season of tomatoes, or did you not get any tomatoes with this sea to shining sea blight?
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Agrinerd
Franklin, NC (Zone 6b)
October 2, 2009 12:41 PM Post #7126340
| This area was devastated. The plant distributors pulled their stock from the shelves when they saw that it was infected, but it was also in the fields and spreading up and down the coast along storm fronts by then. They may have been a source of disease for home gardens, but the problem was more widespread. I've inspected the houses they're grown in and they're surrounded by tomato and pepper fields which were probably the original source of infection for the bedding plants. Just like the old Irish potato blight, it doesn't take long for something like that to spread, and back then, they weren't trucking plants around. I'm sure it didn't help, though. |
Liquidambar2
Mount Vernon, KY
October 2, 2009 6:00 PM Post #7127385
| Agrinerd
I am sorry! A summer without no tomatoes is not a summer, and here I am complaining about a short season.
So what do you suggest?
Should I buy seeds from a catalog again this year, - I guess I could go out and find a few in the garden to save, but I let them mix their DNA anyway they wanted!
What do you think will happen next year?
Was the weather in North Carolina cool and wet too, which does allow for the spread of disease esp mold and fungus?
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Agrinerd
Franklin, NC (Zone 6b)
October 2, 2009 7:12 PM Post #7127632
| We had loads of rain after years of drought and we had cooler temperatures than I remember last year. Glad for the rain, but not for the blight it encouraged.
You can buy seeds if you wish, but tomatoes are generally self pollinating with maybe some of the potato leafed varieties allowing for a cross by bees. You'll most likely get the variety you expected from seeds that you save. |
Liquidambar2
Mount Vernon, KY
October 2, 2009 8:15 PM Post #7127776
| Thank you Larry for the links, it is like I just woke up! One of your articles said it did not come from seeds, not transfered by seed.
Thanks Agrinerd, I will save my seed since they don't cross pollinate (I did not know that) I have been thinking for years that people that saved seeds and more than a couple of varieties must really have large gardens.
I guess I will do it again come Jan. Oh well, by that time I have rested enough to start to care.
Thanks |
Agrinerd
Franklin, NC (Zone 6b)
October 2, 2009 8:36 PM Post #7127835
| I forgot to ask if the tomatoes you grew were hybrids ot not. If they are, then you'll need to buy new seeds to get the same thing. If they're open pollinated varieties (vintage, old-timey, heirloom, heritage), then they'll come true. |
Liquidambar2
Mount Vernon, KY
October 2, 2009 9:04 PM Post #7127912
| I don't know?
Would you know?
Brandywine (really liked this one and so did my whole family- turned out to be our favorite)
Hillbilly (We liked it, really sweet, but it is not a big producer and I like a tomato to produce)
steak sandwich
beef heart
beef steak
and better boy - is that a hybrid? I know it is common, been around a while, and that is all I know.
What about rutergers- I did not plant them this year, and I will not make that mistake again, I really like them - I just ran out of room.
Oh Geez!!!! I just thought - I bought a Mr. Stripes from wal mart and ran out of room so I planted it way over in the hay field, with my pumpkins. It did grow but produced very very few tomatoes and died very early in the season. I bet that was the blight you are talking about!
Are any of these worth saving seeds, or should I just reorder them? |
Horseshoe
Efland, NC (Zone 7a)
October 3, 2009 1:06 AM Post #7128793
| Liquidamber...
Brandywine is OP, as are Hillbilly, and Rutgers. I haven't grown any of the others you listed so can't help you there but Agrinerd (don'tcha just love his name!) will handle that!
Shoe |
Agrinerd
Franklin, NC (Zone 6b)
October 3, 2009 1:24 AM Post #7128883
| I agree with Shoe on the ones I KNOW are heirlooms, and I know that Better Boy is a hybrid, but the others, I'm not sure about. I'm pretty sure that Mr. Stripy is an heirloom. The old timers grow that and Hillbilly around here. A search in Google should tell you about the others... I'd look, but I'm getting sleepy! |
