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Aroids: Anthurium cordifolium / grande ?

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olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

May 31, 2010
9:30 AM

Post #7845595

This anthurium came with the tag Anthurium cordifolium (Caribbean basin). I have been unable to find any information on this species except that A. cordifolium is a syn. for A. grande. Again, I can find no description of that species. I will start this series with an image of the whole plant. Soda can is for scale.
Any help with an ID will be appreciated. Gotta love this old nursery I found this in but he's not so hot on his ID's. The tag seemed to come from the grower not the retail nurseyman.
Thanks in advance, Scott

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olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

May 31, 2010
9:34 AM

Post #7845609

The leaf blade is generally ovate, cupular and coriaceous, leaf base heavily cordate, leaf tip acute, margin undulate. Largest leaf is 14Ē laterally and 18Ē longitudinally from geniculum to apex.

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olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

May 31, 2010
9:36 AM

Post #7845618

Abaxial surface is semi glossy to glossy, adaxial surface is matte. Leaf surface is moderately bullate.

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olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

May 31, 2010
9:38 AM

Post #7845629

The primary vein (midrib) is green and only slightly raised abaxially but is yellowish and prominently raised and rounded adaxially. Secondary veins number 9-12 per side of the primary. They each continue toward the leaf tip disappearing into the margin. There is no clear collective vein. The tertiary veins are precurrent but only appear on the leaf base side of the secondary veins and connect to the adjacent lower secondary never to the adjacent secondary vein toward the leaf apex.

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olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

May 31, 2010
9:42 AM

Post #7845645

The petioles are 16Ē - 23Ē in length and sulcate.

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olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

May 31, 2010
9:46 AM

Post #7845656

General cross section of petiole.

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olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

May 31, 2010
9:48 AM

Post #7845663

Geniculum is 1.5Ē Ė 1.75Ē

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olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

May 31, 2010
9:55 AM

Post #7845681

The petiole base has a prominent growth on the adaxial surface. It is beyond my botany to describe it so the images will have to suffice. Roots are white.

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olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

May 31, 2010
9:58 AM

Post #7845689

The cataphylls start out fleshy and green, with a pair of prominent ridges on the abaxial surface.The cataphylls dry brown and split longitudinally.
There has been no visable evidence of an inflorence yet on this plant so no help there.
Good luck everyone.
Scott

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LariAnn
Miami, FL
(Zone 10a)

May 31, 2010
10:10 AM

Post #7845717

Scott,

This plant is very familiar to me because I collected it in the wild on the foothills of the Blue Mountain in Jamaica. I've been growing the plant for over 30 years (one specimen I have now is actually that old!). It has proven to be quite durable and hardy, and I have already used it as a parent in my Anthurium hybridization program.

Regrettably, I don't have any more definitive ID than you already have. The one thing I am certain of is that your plant is the same species as mine, and that it is indeed endemic to the Caribbean basin.

I am inclined to go with Anthurium cordifolium, as one site showed Anthurium grande as a plant with leaves not too different from Anthurium crystallinum! So even allowing for natural variation, I cannot see how these two plants can be the same species. Check out the pictures here: http://www.aroidpictures.fr/GENRES/anthuriuma-l.html

Here's a picture of my plant: http://www.aroidiaresearch.org/jamaican.htm

LariAnn
Aroidia Research
ExoticRainforest
Siloam Springs, AR

May 31, 2010
10:43 AM

Post #7845814

Disclaimer: The author of this post does not claim to be a botanical expert. The quotes used are given solely to provide information from qualified experts. Credits are commonly given to the owner of scientific information and that is the sole purpose here. No attempt is being made to associate the author of this post with these experts as a peer, only a researcher that has access to the source.


Scott, according to some of Dr. Croat's material as well as a check of both TROPICOS and IPNI, the name you have is a synonym of Anthurium grandifolium (Jacq.) Kunth. The plant is native to much of the Caribbean including both the Windward and Leeward islands as well as Jamaica. It has also been observed in portions of Central America and into Ecuador but does not appear to be common outside the Caribbean.

I did a search of all of Dr. Croat's works and could find only two brief descriptions of two individual specimens. Since I know you understand the science I am quoting one precisely:

Stems 4 cm diam.; petioles sharply V-sulcate adaxially with a shallow groove along both sides near margins, medium green, weakly glossy, moderately firm, faintly dark-speckled; blades moderately coriaceous, dark green and moderately glossy above, moderately paler and semiglossy below; midrib moderately paler, raised in valley above, round-raised and paler below; primary lateral veins paler and quilted, raised above, more or less pleated, narrowly raised and paler below; inflorescence spreading; peduncle obtusely angular on one side, semiglossy; spathe reflexed, pale green, recurved near apex, weakly glossy inside, semiglossy outside; spadix medium yellow-green and matte, 23.5 cm long, 1.8 cm diam., 6 mm diam., 0.5 cm from the tip.

I also tried to check the Royal Botanic Garden CATE Araceae but the site is not functioning right now. Sometimes they have a more detailed description and if I can find it I will let you know.

If you would like, I will give you the email address of a friend in St. Croix that has grown the plant and is well versed in both growing specimens as well as botanical science.

Steve


This message was edited May 31, 2010 11:44 AM

This message was edited Jun 16, 2010 8:32 AM
ExoticRainforest
Siloam Springs, AR

May 31, 2010
11:02 AM

Post #7845852

Scott, I finally got into CATE and the only additional info I found was the species is limited solely to Jamaica as well as both the Leeward and Windward islands. There is zero additional information.
ExoticRainforest
Siloam Springs, AR

May 31, 2010
11:46 AM

Post #7845958

I did some digging and found some photos of Anthurium grandifolium and one of Anthurium grande on French aroid botanist David Scherberich's website. You may find these interesting:

http://www.aroidpictures.fr/GENRES/anthuriuma-l.html

Anthurium grande is found in Bolivia and parts of Ecuador.

Steve


This message was edited May 31, 2010 12:47 PM

olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

May 31, 2010
2:47 PM

Post #7846493

LariAnn and Steve, first off thanks for your efforts.

LariAnn, I agree that that plant you have labeled as A. sp.'Jamacian' is indeed the same species. Being as you have not assigned the A. cordifolium name to your plant do you agree that the image of A. cordifolium on Scherberich's site is the same species as your 'Jamacian'. I understand the variability issue but the difference in the collective vein and the lack of any cupate feature on the leaf blade makes me wonder if these two are the same species.

Steve, I agree it appears that A. grande is not a synonym for A. cordifolium but for the sake of info this link is where I found the information. http://culturesheet.org/araceae:anthurium:cordifolium

Being as these pages hail from ITIS, the Integrated Taxonomic Information System, Taxonomic data provided by Species 2000 & ITIS Catalogue of Life: 2008 Annual Checklist,
using World Checklist of Selected Plant Families version 15 Oct 2007 and The Culture Sheet taxonomy is based on the publication ďVascular Plant Families and GeneraĒ compiled by R. K. Brummitt
Published by the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew in 1992 - With the permission of the Trustees of the Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew... I had hoped they were accurate... sigh... such is life when dealing with taxonomy

The same site has A. grandifolium and its synonym list. http://culturesheet.org/araceae:anthurium:grandifolium

Mr. Scherberich's images of A. grandifolium seem to be closer to that of the species in question but I am curious that he has images of both A. cordifolium and A.grandifolium, suggesting that he considers them seperate species. Your opinion please.
The quoted description from Dr. Croat sounds right on the money, was this quote for A.cordifolium or A. grandifolium or is this paper where he lists them as synonymis?

Scott
LariAnn
Miami, FL
(Zone 10a)

May 31, 2010
4:38 PM

Post #7846782

After taking a closer look, especially at the inflorescences, of Mr. Scherberich's plants, I'm convinced that our plants are NOT A. cordifolium. The berries on my plant are dark purple when ripe, and the spadix can be on the long side, as are the ones on A. grandifolium.

LariAnn
ExoticRainforest
Siloam Springs, AR

May 31, 2010
4:44 PM

Post #7846813

Taxonomy can be very confusing.

Anthurium grande W.Bull, Gard. Chron. 1865: 934 (1865) is a heterotypic synonym of
Anthurium cordifolium N.E.Br., Gard. Chron. 1865: 934 (1865), nom. illeg. But that name is considered Nomen illegitimum or an illegtimate name. In botanical nomenclature a heterotypic synonym is a synonym that comes into being when a taxon is reduced in status or reduced to synonymy and becomes part of a different taxon. I believe that would indicate the "A cordifolium" referred to in your link was not truly in the an accepted name or was not in the genus Anthurium making it nom illeg. I found a total of three plants using that name but only one was an accepted name.

I checked all the major databases belonging to Kew as well as the Missouri Botanical Garden and could find no other conclusion but will be more than happy to take this up with a friend at the Kew that is one of their chief taxonomists.

There is very little in print about the name Anthurium grandifolium but this is exactly the kind of stuff I love to run down. Since there aren't that many Anthurium species in Jamaica (I lived there for nearly two years) I would tend to agree with the info from Dr. Croat I posted provided it matches your plant reasonably well. When I looked at your photos and compared Tom's notes they at least appeared to match some features. Since you are with the plant you can be a much better judge.

If it doesn't and you will email all your original photos to me I'll gladly show them to Dr. Croat as well as Dr. Simon Mayo at the Kew as well as to RafaŽl Govaerts who is a taxonomist with Kew.

Dr. Croat's info is from the description of a single plant of Anthurium grandifolium.

Steve





This message was edited May 31, 2010 5:48 PM

This message was edited May 31, 2010 5:49 PM
ExoticRainforest
Siloam Springs, AR

June 1, 2010
5:28 AM

Post #7847938

Scott, I am currently communicating with Dr. Croat regarding your plant and he has seen your photos. There is apparently still some confusion over the correct name of the plant you and LariAnn are growing so I'll wait until I get more information before offering additional info. I can tell you for certain the "bump" on the petiole in one of your last photos is just the end of the petiole sheath (per Tom).

There are only four named cordate leaf Anthurium species found on the island of Jamaica (according to Tom) but that is part of the info that must be resolved, specifically if all are now accepted names. As LariAnn has correctly stated before, current taxonomic accuracy is dependent on the work you are currently reading since in the work of science someone almost always has a "new" idea. Personally, I stopped worrying about who is currently right and just accept what is the currently accepted name. The real problem is for all the "poor" collectors that are seeking good information and get stuck in the middle!

As I said, "taxonomy can be confusing".


I'll get back to you.

Steve
ExoticRainforest
Siloam Springs, AR

June 1, 2010
5:37 PM

Post #7849976

OK Scott, it now appears you had the correct name the first time but it isn't A. grande.

After several email exchanges, according to Dr. Croat there are four cordate or subcordate species in Jamaica, A. mancuniense, A. grandifolium, A. cordifolium which he indicated is the plant you are growing after reviewing your photos, and a brand new species that has yet to be published. I now know the name of that new species but was asked not to reveal it since it is possible a friend of the person who discovered that plant on the island just may read this. It is considered more or less "bad luck" to reveal a new name of a new species before publication if the person being honored is still alive. I'm not certain when it will be published but I know the honoree and he will be ecstatic.

Although there are differences of opinion on several scientific sites, Tom just explained that many of the West Indian names are chaotic owing to the age of the taxonomy. These plants are among the very earliest of Aroid names and most were not properly described or vouchered. That explains why we can't find anything in recent print about any of these names.

Tom had me check Kew's World Checklist of Selected Plant Families and that site has both A grandifolium and A cordifolium as distinct species. Since some of the synonyms were sunk many years ago and they don't appear to have been recently studied, that only adds to the confusion.

I also asked about the description I gave you earlier which was a match to your plant and Tom indicates that one correctly belongs to Anthurium cordifolium, your plant. I have asked if the two species are closely related but don't have an answer at this time.

Sorry if I added to the confusion.

Steve


LariAnn
Miami, FL
(Zone 10a)

June 1, 2010
6:16 PM

Post #7850074

Steve,

Thanks for your efforts in digging up an ID for these plants.

My question now is that the picture of the infructescence of A. cordifolium on Mr. Scherberich's site shows red berries on a relatively short greenish spadix, while my plant has set berries several times and they are dark purple on a long purplish spadix. When comparing the pictures of the two plants and inflorescences, the ones that match my plant most closely are those of A. grandifolium.

I would like to see a complete taxonomic description of both A. cordifolium and A. grandifolium, especially reference the berry size, color and spadix length and color at male and female anthesis. Only then will I be confident of the ID of my plant.

LariAnn
ExoticRainforest
Siloam Springs, AR

June 1, 2010
6:52 PM

Post #7850180

Understood. That would certainly end any confusion. I trade mail with David Scherberich on a regular basis and will send him a note right away to see if he can help. I tried unsucessfully to find a descent description of these plants but David sometimes has info in the garden in France where he works. Maybe we will get lucky!

By the way, my A robusta x odora has its first inflorescence. Looks just like your photo!

Steve
LariAnn
Miami, FL
(Zone 10a)

June 1, 2010
7:04 PM

Post #7850220

Great to hear about your Robudora bloom! My Robudoras are all in vegetative mode at this time, meaning they are getting larger leaves now. I think it will take a few years of progressive growth before I know if any of the seedlings can rival A. robusta in size.

LariAnn
ExoticRainforest
Siloam Springs, AR

June 1, 2010
7:09 PM

Post #7850242

The plant looks great but the leaves are only about 60 cm now. Since this is the first inflorescence it too is not large but it is a neat one to see. I'll photograph it tomorrow and send you copies since I just discovered it tonight.

I just took the biggest leap I know to try and asked both David and RafaŽl Govaerts at the Kew for help on Scott and your plants. Both are very good at helping so maybe we can finally understand this one!

Steve

olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

June 2, 2010
4:29 AM

Post #7851041

I will take a ride up to Marathon, Fl. today to see if the owner of the Mom and Pop nursery where I purchased this plant from can remember where he got this particular plant from. He mentioned that the grower does nothing but aroids. I'm curious if this plant came from LariAnn's original stock. Honestly I don't hold much hope as Ed is in his late 70's and claims memory loss but I'm quite sure it is from a South Fl. grower. It was apparent that the plant had been at his shop for quite awhile as I found it and several other anthuriums stuck away in a literally falling down shade house and had not been repotted in at least several years.
Thanks again for your diligence in this matter, Steve. Your network runs far and wide.
Scott
ExoticRainforest
Siloam Springs, AR

June 2, 2010
6:30 AM

Post #7851310

Thanks Scott. I have just been fortunate to develop good contacts around the world with folks who can and will share quality information. RafaŽl has come through for me many times and just did it again. So far, nothing from David but I will post it once I hear from him.

Hopefully this will help to solve the little mystery presented here. The two species are distinct. This info came back from RafaŽl Govaerts at the Kew in London this morning,

"First and I'm sure you have seen this already, there is a photograph of the fruit of an A.cordifolium on TROPICOS. As both species occur in Jamaica, there is a key and description of both species in the Flora of Jamaica: Adams, C.D. (1972). Flowering Plants of Jamaica: 68-69. University of the West Indies, Mona. A.cordifolium is described as having mauve berries, A. grandifolium as dark reddish-purple ones. Hope this helps, RafaŽl"

I had indeed seen the photos on TROPICOS but it just didn't register until RafaŽl's note came back. For anyone concerned about copyright infringement by reposting the photo, the Missouri Botanical Garden has a clearly stated photo policy on its website that all the photos can be reused provided proper credit is given. I deliberately left it intact as it appears on TROPICOS. On my own website I normally give individual credit to the photographer and in this case that credit goes to Dr. Tom Croat who offers help to all of us on a very helpful basis. Tom has always given me permission to reuse his photos with credit.

Here it is.

This message was edited Jun 2, 2010 7:51 AM

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LariAnn
Miami, FL
(Zone 10a)

June 2, 2010
7:02 AM

Post #7851399

If I recall correctly, the only other person in south Florida who got one of my plants is Dr. McArthur, who no longer lives in the area. Before he left, though, he turned over a collection of Anthuriums to me, and among them was the plant he got from me. So if the Mom & Pop nursery didn't get theirs from me, perhaps they got it from him. His collection was as run-down as the Mom & Pop nursery you describe.

In any event, it is likely that the plant came from me, one way or another.

Now the goose has sauce on it; the picture from TROPICOS looks just like the infructescence I've had on my plant, but it doesn't look at all like the picture of the A. cordifolium infructescence on Mr. Scherberich's site!

LariAnn

This message was edited Jun 2, 2010 10:41 AM
ExoticRainforest
Siloam Springs, AR

June 2, 2010
7:56 AM

Post #7851574

LariAnn and Scott, since there is an obvious conflict in opinion by some expert sources it would be my opinion it would be safe to accept Dr. Croat's photo and info until strong contradictory evidence can be found. The color of the berries on David's site appear not to match the info provided above from the Kew.

Once I hear from David perhaps we will have more info. Sometimes taxonomy drives us all nuts so at some point we all just to have to make the best personal decision possible based on the info available. I have several plants in my own collection that a "mystery" plants and I have seen the long shelf of "mystery" plants at MOBOT that have only a collection number.

I think some of the info on Kew's sites will be changed and will continue to search. I would love to find a copy of the Flora of Jamaica mentioned but there are none available of the correct edition on Amazon that I can find.

To any of our fellow Anthurium "nuts" that have been following this discussion, this thread is a great illustration of why it is often difficult to arrive at a positive ID instantly. If you don't have some background in botany or the variety of terms that can be found in use, it can be tough for any novice, let alone the best growers to figure these things out.

Personally, I find this discussion a great thread since it requires all of us to put on our thinking caps and do some research.

Steve




This message was edited Jun 2, 2010 9:07 AM

olddude

olddude
Big Pine Key, FL
(Zone 11)

June 3, 2010
7:24 AM

Post #7854713

I know that for me this has been a great thread, not just for finding out the species name but for learning the keys to determining a species and how to use some of the web resources that are available.

So I spoke to Ed, the nursery owner. He wouldn't give up the name of the grower, like it is a big secret. I actually understand his reasoning as I was a retail nurseryman down here for 12 years back in the 70's and 80's. We would have people come in asking our sources and the next thing you know they would be making a trip to Homestead to try to buy wholesale.

He did admit the plant had been around his shop for at least 10 years or so.
I've cleaned him out of unusual aroids and of course I have a couple more that have bad names ( such as A. Barklee - Caribbean basin). I'll be back asking for more help I'm sure but for the moment I'm trying to narrow the search.

Thanks for all the help, Steve and LariAnn

See ya in Sept or before, Scott
ExoticRainforest
Siloam Springs, AR

June 3, 2010
10:09 AM

Post #7855180

This one was fun! Let's all do it again.

Steve

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