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PlantFiles Pictures: 'Chatooga Gold' (Hibiscus coccineus)

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poisondartfrog

poisondartfrog
Barbourville, KY
(Zone 7a)

September 27, 2010
4:14 PM

Post #8124564

Swamp Hibiscus, Scarlet Rose Mallow, Texas Star, Scarlet Hibiscus 'Chatooga Gold'
Hibiscus coccineus


Hibiscus coccineus, Chatooga Gold

http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/193833/

Thumbnail by poisondartfrog
Click the image for an enlarged view.

Michael_Ronayne
Nutley, NJ
(Zone 6b)

October 25, 2010
6:12 AM

Post #8174612

What is the source for the “Hibiscus coccineus, Chatooga Gold” picture you posted? Is this a hybrid? You should repost in the Hibiscus Forum.

Mike

poisondartfrog

poisondartfrog
Barbourville, KY
(Zone 7a)

October 25, 2010
3:25 PM

Post #8175778

Mike,
The picture is from my garden this season. I bought the seeds online a couple of years ago from "Seeds by Size" and the description did not give any significant information. I tried to find out more about it and did find a couple of additional commercial sources for seeds, but no photos and no real description. The name piqued my curiosity. Actually, I was hoping it was indicative of the foliage color, but that was not the case. The foliage is dark green veined carmine red. Not all of the blooms are this color of pink. Some blossoms on the same plant were various shades of pink to pinkish red.

poisondartfrog

poisondartfrog
Barbourville, KY
(Zone 7a)

October 25, 2010
3:57 PM

Post #8175842

Photo showing pink/red stems and veining.
Hibiscus Chatooga Gold

Thumbnail by poisondartfrog
Click the image for an enlarged view.

Michael_Ronayne
Nutley, NJ
(Zone 6b)

October 26, 2010
6:36 AM

Post #8176801

I did multiple searches on the Internet, other than some of your pictures and one other, I found absolutely nothing. The following picture is not Hibiscus coccineus; look at the shape of the pistil. This photographer is very good be they also got several other identifications incorrect.

Hibiscus coccineus 'Chatooga Gold'
http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc37/Leu51/Hibiscus%20species%20and%20hybrids/?action=view¤t=img_2526.jpg

Do you have a side photograph of your Hibiscus coccineus flower showing the pistil in full length? I need a clear picture of the area about the tip of the pistil.

I wonder if this is a hybrid where the first generation Hibiscus coccineus hybrid was backcrossed to Hibiscus coccineus and this is the second generation? Another possibility is that a first generation Hibiscus coccineus hybrid was inbreed and the most Hibiscus coccineus like progeny were selected for future breeding. A third possibility is that this is a random mutation.

It is strange that there are no pictures or history on the Internet. Do your Hibiscus set viable seeds and do they breed true? I had the thought that this could also be a first generation hybrid which is sterile or doesn’t breed true. A first generation hybrid would produce very consistent progeny but you could not reproduce the Hibiscus from seed reliably.

Do you know what a cross between a red and white Hibiscus coccineus produces? Could this be a cross where the red and white colors are co-dominant? The problem with this theory is that I am not comfortable with the shape of the flower.

I have been working with Hibiscus coccineus (red) hybrids this summer and should know a bit more by next year if the seeds are viable and I don’t kill the seedlings with too much TLC like I did this past spring. I plan to post a report on pod infertility in Hibiscus Lord Baltimore, which is a Hibiscus coccineus hybrid, which is why I am so interested in the shape of the pistil.

Mike

poisondartfrog

poisondartfrog
Barbourville, KY
(Zone 7a)

October 26, 2010
4:27 PM

Post #8177821

Wow! That photo is clearly not coccineus. Was the photographer selling seeds?
I have grown H. coccineus alba for years, but refrained from growing the red version here because I did not want to contaminate the white one. I would not rule out a white x red for Chatooga Gold, but have no emperical evidence of what such a cross could look like.
I tried to isolate CG by growing it 150 feet from alba and by placing it so that there are structural barriers as well, but I did not manipulate self-pollination or bag the seed heads, so contamination is still a possibility.
About half of the seed capsules I collected were empty or had unformed seeds inside. Still, I was able to collect several that contained seeds that are consistent in size, color and weight with the H. coccineus seeds I am familiar with.
If you want to try some of the seeds I collected for yourself D-mail me and I can send you some.
Alana
Michael_Ronayne
Nutley, NJ
(Zone 6b)

October 27, 2010
1:49 AM

Post #8178717

The person who posted the Hibiscus is identified as “Leu51”. Here is his Hibiscus Photo-Bucket light-box.
http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc37/Leu51/Hibiscus%20species%20and%20hybrids/

These look like photographs from a botanical garden or gardens somewhere in the southern United States. There doesn’t appear to anyway to contact the photographer other than leave a comment about the picture.

Hibiscus coccineus has an unusual pollination strategy compared to other North American Hibiscus. On the pistil the stigma is in close proximity to the anthers. When the flower opens the stigma are pointed upward and away from the anthers encouraging external pollination. As the day progresses the stigma bend downward and make physical contact with the anthers ensuring self pollination. That little trick is impossible for Hibiscus moscheutos and other North American Hibiscus where there is some distance between the stigma and anthers and they are therefore more dependent on external pollinators.

See these photographs and look at the tip of the pistil:
http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc37/Leu51/Hibiscus%20species%20and%20hybrids/?action=view¤t=cd43.jpg
http://s215.photobucket.com/albums/cc37/Leu51/Hibiscus%20species%20and%20hybrids/?action=view¤t=img_1733.jpg

The hybrid Hibiscus Lord Baltimore is a special case because its pistil is unusual compared to other Hibiscus. The pistil of Lord Baltimore is long like Hibiscus coccineus but the anthers on the tip of pistil are also long, like Hibiscus moscheutos. Bigger is not always better. Under normal conditions Lord Baltimore has a documented pod fertility of under 1 pod out every 250 pollination attempts. I will be posting more on this once I finish collecting the seeds from this summer’s tests.

The less than 100% pod fertility with your Hibiscus coccineus 'Chatooga Gold' is interesting. I have to get up early in the morning and use pollen overload to create the desired hybrids and I will not be sure if I was successful until next year, as the Hibiscus coccineus could still have self pollinated. Hybridizing Hibiscus moscheutos is easy in comparison.

Mike


This message was edited Oct 27, 2010 3:56 AM
Michael_Ronayne
Nutley, NJ
(Zone 6b)

October 27, 2010
5:22 AM

Post #8178896

There are only two sellers of these seeds with no product description, no pictures and both sellers have terrible ratings in Garden Watchdog. What more can we ask for.

http://www.seeds-by-size.com/hibiscus.html
http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/c/1670/

http://www.hardyplants.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SP&Product_Code=HHS2-A7
http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/c/2079/
http://davesgarden.com/products/gwd/c/1605/

Note the English spelling of “coccinea” in both cases. I suspect that these seeds are from the same source, most likely in the United Kingdom. Also note that seeds-by-size.com is a UK wholesaler, so the US based hardyplants.com is most likely obtaining their seeds from them.

Mike


This message was edited Oct 27, 2010 5:36 PM
Michael_Ronayne
Nutley, NJ
(Zone 6b)

May 2, 2012
2:36 PM

Post #9107509

I strongly suspect that Hibiscus 'Chatooga Gold' is a hybrid between Hibiscus coccineus and Hibiscus laevis, (syn. militaris). I still have the plants from the seeds you sent me but I disrupted the dormancy cycle last year and the Hibiscus didn’t bloom. Hibiscus coccineus will not hybridize easily with other Hibiscus with the only exception being Hibiscus laevis.

Mike

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