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Sustainable Alternatives: Senate Bill S 510 - Would Outlaw Gardening and Saving Seeds

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bsgardens
Jacksonville, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 18, 2010
7:58 AM

Post #8218416

Senate Bill S 510 Food Safety Modernization Act Vote Imminent: Would Outlaw Gardening and Saving Seeds

http://visiontoamerica.org/story/senate-bill-s-510-food-safety-modernization-act-vote-imminent-would-outlaw-gardening-and-saving-seeds.html

I don't get too much into politics but ... This one got my blood boiling & all Gardeners should know about it.
mornin_gayle
Bloomingdale, OH
(Zone 6a)

November 18, 2010
8:03 AM

Post #8218422

http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/organic.asp
bsgardens
Jacksonville, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 18, 2010
9:21 AM

Post #8218575

thank you for posting this link.
bsgardens
Jacksonville, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 18, 2010
9:23 AM

Post #8218583

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-875
This is the actual bill .. you can find the link off the one above from morni_gayle posted
bsgardens
Jacksonville, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 19, 2010
9:32 AM

Post #8220292

I apologize if I have upset anyone. I am still learning. & I will always admit where I am at fault. Through all of this I have learned & I am learning that some of this stuff does not pertain to the average gardener .. but there are business within DG who do sell some things across state lines via DG in the marketplace. I know I have learned a lot through all of this & any & all information & links are appreciated. I am always up for learning.

Thank you everyone who has stayed civil. =D
jujubetexas
San Marcos, TX
(Zone 8b)

November 19, 2010
9:50 AM

Post #8220315

This is very similar to this bill.

H.R. 2749: Food Safety Enhancement Act of 2009

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-2749&tab=summary

This bill defines a food processing facility as anyone that sells more than 50 percent of their product indirectly to the consumer. So if you grow three tomatoes and sell two to a health food store and one to your neighbor, you are considered a food processing facility. However, there is a loophole if you grow at home or process at home. I am not sure how these two bills are going to mesh together but they should be looked at as a whole.

S 510 Food Safety Modernization Act does not define farm or orchard which leaves it open to interpretation which should be a big no no. They could simply refer to HR 2749 and all the sudden you are a food processing facility if you grow at the community garden and sell to health food stores or farmers markets for resell. However, this 510 seems much more encompassing. More scary.

I would not feel comfortable until they define farms, orchards or give better defined exclusions.

This message was edited Nov 19, 2010 12:23 PM
bsgardens
Jacksonville, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 19, 2010
10:06 AM

Post #8220357

Thank you for the information. Thank you for your opioions. I will look at your link. Thank you for the chance to learn.
paracelsus
Elmira, NY
(Zone 6a)

November 21, 2010
4:46 AM

Post #8222863

It does define "farm":

‘(f) Definition- For purposes of this section, the term ‘farm’ has the meaning given that term in section 1.227 of title 21, Code of Federal Regulations (or any successor regulation).’.

Let's see what that says:

"Farm means a facility in one general physical location devoted to the growing and harvesting of crops, the raising of animals (including seafood), or both. Washing, trimming of outer leaves of, and cooling produce are considered part of harvesting. The term farm includes: (i) Facilities that pack or hold food, provided that all food used in such activities is grown, raised, or consumed on that farm or another farm under the same ownership; and (ii) Facilities that manufacture/process food, provided that all food used in such activities is consumed on that farm or another farm under the same ownership."

http://cfr.vlex.com/vid/1-227-what-definitions-apply-this-subpart-19703879

You have to also look up what "facility" means in this context,t hough, because that's part of the definition of a "farm":

"Facility means any establishment, structure, or structures under one ownership at one general physical location, or, in the case of a mobile facility, traveling to multiple locations, that manufactures/processes, packs, or holds food for consumption in the United States. Transport vehicles are not facilities if they hold food only in the usual course of business as carriers. A facility may consist of one or more contiguous structures, and a single building may house more than one distinct facility if the facilities are under separate ownership. The private residence of an individual is not a facility. Nonbottled water drinking water collection and distribution establishments and their structures are not facilities."

Notice the "private residence" thing. They are talking about corporations here, not gardens.
jujubetexas
San Marcos, TX
(Zone 8b)

November 21, 2010
4:23 PM

Post #8223953

I used the search feature for all sections for the word farm but didnt get that. Maybe I wasnt using the search feature on the full draft of the document. Thanks. It seems like this bill is far more encompassing that the other one. The good news is that you can process at your private residence just like the other bill. I wonder how far you could take that. I mean, if your private residence was 8000 square feet. He he.

paracelsus
Elmira, NY
(Zone 6a)

November 22, 2010
10:12 AM

Post #8225285

I used the search function on my browser (Opera), which works pretty good. I like that it first highlights all the instances and then you can jump down. I recommend Opera for people with security concerns. Pretty much no one writes viruses for it.

Are you the one with the orchard, Juj?

jujubetexas
San Marcos, TX
(Zone 8b)

November 22, 2010
12:49 PM

Post #8225500

Yes.
paracelsus
Elmira, NY
(Zone 6a)

November 22, 2010
3:09 PM

Post #8225711

It doesn't look like they define what an orchard is.
jujubetexas
San Marcos, TX
(Zone 8b)

November 22, 2010
6:31 PM

Post #8226084

They did on the link below. I am still "fly under the radar" anyway but I may not be able to at some point. I am putting in another 170 trees this winter which will take me over 400 trees total. That can mean production of over 40,000 lbs of fruit per year once all the trees hit full production in 4-7 years.. However, I am still a one man operation with a full time computer job. I just have to be honest with myself and my customers and hope everything falls into place. Either that or go postal. HA!

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-875

(14) FOOD PRODUCTION FACILITY- The term ‘food production facility’ means any farm, ranch, orchard, vineyard, aquaculture facility, or confined animal-feeding operation.



paracelsus
Elmira, NY
(Zone 6a)

November 23, 2010
2:17 AM

Post #8226485

They use the word "orchard," but they do not define what they mean by it, as they did with "farm." At least, not that I can see. The main concern of this bill is if you were processing the fruit in some way, such as turning it into cider, or mixing fruits from a bunch of different origins into one batch, such that if there's a problem, it can no longer be traced to its source--remember the tomato contamination thing?

If you are going to be growing hundreds of trees for fruit harvest you will sell, you will be a business. If it costs you money to abide by a regulation, that cost is deductible from your gross as a business expense. If you say your orchard is a hobby, all the expenses of running the orchard quit being deductible from the gross, which becomes plain taxable income in its entirety. That's not good.

Businesses get regulated. I have one; I know. And there are tons of regulations that apply to my business. Whatever it costs me to abide by those regulations is deducted from my gross. If it causes me to raise prices in order to make a sufficient profit, that is okay. I have focused on selling unique items and information, not on being the cheapest, so I don't have much competition. It is a different way of doing business that does not involve racing to the bottom. I suspect you might be heading in that direction if you are adding fruit varieties that are unique. There are orchards where I live that specialize in antique apples, for instance. They can charge a lot more for them because no one else has them.
jujubetexas
San Marcos, TX
(Zone 8b)

November 23, 2010
7:41 AM

Post #8226903

I am all for food safety and regulation for sure. I think the main fear behind all of this would be that small farmers would be forced to use specific methods that large corporations use. Also that the large corporations would be able to dictate these rules and methods. Further more, these methods may actually create more of a hazard to the fruit by delaying them to getting to market. Therefore the fruit would have to be picked earlier and sprayed with waxes or chemicals to help keep them ripe.

If they required a sterilization for fruit and the sterization bath units cost 200,000.00 and up, that would be impossible for a small farmer to obtain. There is also a fear of regulatory costs. They could easily nickle and dime the small farmer out of business with annual fees. I grow about 15 different fruits. What if there is a regulation cost for each fruit to market at 500.00 a pop anually?

The food safety acts are setup to protect the consumer from contamination of food that generally only happens in large corporations. This is because of the conditions in these large processing facilities and the amount of time processing and shipping of these items allow the bacteria to grow.

The large corporations will be the ones making the rules as has always been the case in government regulatory agencies. They just hire ex-employees of industry giants and put them in office. We all know that these companies love nothing more than to squash the competition and this will give them the means and the ends.

What would make me happy would be size and cost barriers, exemptions, time table exclusions and real numbers on cost and fees.

Regulations are good but the Unitied States has a history of squeezing out the little man in the food industry. There are already too many food monopolies and now they will be regulating the regulators.



bsgardens
Jacksonville, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 23, 2010
11:23 AM

Post #8227213

thank you for these explantations. I still continue to learn. You all are wonderful.
jujubetexas
San Marcos, TX
(Zone 8b)

November 23, 2010
2:46 PM

Post #8227460

Most of the stuff we are talking about is "iffy". No one really knows if it will be good or bad.
paracelsus
Elmira, NY
(Zone 6a)

November 23, 2010
6:38 PM

Post #8227814

I think Big Ag has been regulating the regulators for a long time now. But in terms of the small fry, I do not think they will make any laws that apply to us. We aren't worth the trouble. Imagine how much they would have to spend to enforce such things.

This came up a few years ago when the USDA made noises about enforcing the White List, which spelled out which seeds would be allowed to be imported into the US. No seeds would be allowed in unless they were on the White List; this would exclude thousands of seeds of plants that were not commonly grown, for instance. I order a lot of seeds from abroad, so this worried me a lot. The law already existed, but it had not been enforced. It was clearly made to benefit producers of the latest hybrid petunia and PVP begonia. There was a lot of protest about it. I know I weighed in against it on the gubmint public reaction site. But then the USDA ran into the reality of not having the funding to enforce the White List. They would need more inspectors than the entirety of the US Customs Dept. just to stop seeds. They quit talking about it, and that was pretty much the end of it. I learned something from that. They can make a lot of noise about what they are going to do or what is legal to do, but that does not mean they will or even can do it. Enforcing stuff still costs money.

That doesn't mean I don't worry about new regs coming down the pike. But I feel like we are for the foreseeable future pretty much okay because we are too small to bother with. Sometimes it is a blessing to be nobody in this world.
jujubetexas
San Marcos, TX
(Zone 8b)

November 23, 2010
8:26 PM

Post #8228031

Imagine if they did raids on the farmers markets once a year. Everyone would have a bogus item to sell like sock puppets. "OH MY GOD!!! THE FEDS ARE HERE!!! GET OUT THE SOCK PUPPETS!"

paracelsus
Elmira, NY
(Zone 6a)

November 24, 2010
1:33 AM

Post #8228187

Lol!
bsgardens
Jacksonville, FL
(Zone 9a)

December 5, 2010
12:34 PM

Post #8245474

LMAO!!
SoFlaCommercial
West Palm Beach, FL
(Zone 10b)

August 13, 2011
5:04 AM

Post #8753310

has there been any progress on this bill? doesn't really pertain to me personally, as I'm not even growing enough for me, and I don't have a lot of land space, so not really ever planning on having a lot to 'process' except for personal use, but I don't like it when the big guys try to push out the little guys.

thanks.
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 12, 2011
10:43 PM

Post #8927344

SoFlaCommercial, I don't think they can even enforce it...we need to get rid of the republitard's...
SoFlaCommercial
West Palm Beach, FL
(Zone 10b)

December 18, 2011
8:09 PM

Post #8934958

I know that they'd have no means of enforcing it, but did they actually PASS it????
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 18, 2011
9:03 PM

Post #8935029

Congress has passed measures to Forbid rainfall capture in certain states, they have outlawed CAFO, (animal Factory) video's on youtube recently, and they are trying to pass three bill's that will eliminate Home Gardening, I would tell you why but I don't want to become to Politically enraged here...my e-mail is Open vaashoo@hotmail.com... they are also trying to make it illegal to Hoard Seed's, recently Monsanto purchased a major US seed company, deliberation's are still continuing, that provide most(40%) of homeowner's with garden seed sold to Distributor's...and I'm not talking about Burpee or Martha...
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 18, 2011
9:17 PM

Post #8935046

All of this depend's on Interpretation of the law, and will be decided State by State depending on who run's the agency's, this could also be a detrement to Monsanto, but once again it depend's on who's interpreting the law...all that would have to be enacted on this law would be the Word's Genetically Modified in Section 401: for it to be Illegal for GMO's to cross State or County Lines... that would be nice...In further reading I'm starting to like this Bill... considering our FDA is Criminal, and the USDA, some Implementation's of this Bill could Help all of us if it were enforced and a few word's changed...
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 18, 2011
9:31 PM

Post #8935059

TITLE IV--ENFORCEMENT
SEC. 401. PROHIBITED ACTS.
It is prohibited--
(1) to manufacture, introduce, deliver for introduction, or receive in interstate commerce any food that is adulterated, misbranded, or otherwise unsafe;
(2) to adulterate or misbrand any food in interstate commerce;

(MY ADDITION)
(3) to allow within the contingent US any Genetically Modified, or BT created crops, vegetables, or vegetation to be received by any other County, State or Province, through Rail, Commerce or Air travel than that County to which it originated;

MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 18, 2011
9:42 PM

Post #8935069

JUJU the Corporation's like Monsanto and BASF, and Bayer, have been regulating the regulator's for Decades, that' how we got here, now it seem's as though a few word's initiated in a Bill, and a few Agency's actually enforcing them could change what food we eat and feed our children, Not just from our Garden's but from the local mart's too, it takes but a few word's on a Bill...and someone to enforce it...
SoFlaCommercial
West Palm Beach, FL
(Zone 10b)

December 18, 2011
10:07 PM

Post #8935083

well, it's scary - I went to my local village code enforcement to ask some questions (for my blog). I was just asking things that i pretty much knew the answer to, but wanted to verify before putting it in my blog. Common sense stuff, really.

but then she asked me why i was asking. i just told her that i had a facebook fan page (didn't tell her about the site) and just wanted to post correct info on it, I'm a gardener, etc.

then she started asking me how big my garden was, how much space did my garden take up in comparison to the rest of the yard, etc.

i explained to her that none of the raised beds (she asked how high were raised beds - i told her 12") were on any of the easements.

she asked what I was growing. She asked if i was selling any food (uh, no-duh!) ,

then i think she suspected that blog, because she made it a point of saying that if i have a garden, if I blog about gardening, and I make any money from it, that it'd be considered working from a home office and I'd have to get an occupational license (okay, if i ever start to make money, I'll get one), and then I was only allowed to have the office equipment there; I technically could not have gardening supplies (like uh, dirt, shovels, etc) at my residence.

How fracked up is THAT? thing that sucks is that I have a chain linked fence and she can see everything when she drives by slowly...

so, you get political, darlin', because I'm about to as well!
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

December 19, 2011
8:50 AM

Post #8935467

i have invasive ivy all over my place. i could send you some to grow up your chain links. privacy guaranteed. Good luck on getting political.

i am a retired rabble rauser. i lost my greenhouses to politics. If you don 't have a constituency, its unlikely that you will win in the political realm. Good luck.
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 19, 2011
7:05 PM

Post #8936282

I have 875,000 in my constituency and growing...I'll bbl... SoFla...
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 19, 2011
7:12 PM

Post #8936295

SoFla it's your Monsanto owned Tea-bagger Gov. doing this to you...and the 12 other Tea-bagger's like Walker and Kucich, all under recall now...check to see if there's a recall petition in your state,, start with the Teacher's union thats the First ones they go after...
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 19, 2011
7:27 PM

Post #8936314

http://www.opednews.com/populum/page.php?f=Monsanto-s-dream-bill-HR-by-Linn-Cohen-Cole-090309-337.html#startcomments
you can read some comment's here...
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 19, 2011
7:35 PM

Post #8936327

SoFla this bill has not Passed yet most of the Tea-Baggers act like it has, and have introduced bills on a State level that can impact as much... Get rid of Your Governor other States are doing it, I fight this Nightly SoFla... Everywhere...
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 20, 2011
5:21 AM

Post #8936695

SoFla I cant find any distinct legislation that has been passed by Gov. Scott, but Rep. Kriseman trying to pass a bill to get Gov. Scott recalled and supposedly already has 30,000 signatures...
SoFlaCommercial
West Palm Beach, FL
(Zone 10b)

December 20, 2011
9:44 AM

Post #8936945

awesome; thanks, Mr. PappyG.

I never realized that by having a garden to grow veggies to supplement my groceries I would have effectively be an activist.
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 20, 2011
9:57 PM

Post #8937780

SoFla... I have to send you a watchdog link unfortunately I'm too tired tonight, all you have to do is type in your zip code and it tells you every bill under scrutiny in your District and your State, Trust me SoFla when I tell you we aren't activist's anymore, we're Survivor's... I hope..
If we don't change the state of Affair's in D.C. we will cease to exist... watch MSNBC,...Eliminate FoxNews... and read the Huffington Post...we're in a war ...only it's here not overseas...and they're counting on us to Ignore it...
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

December 21, 2011
6:42 AM

Post #8938009

So Fla Commercial: You would be amazed at the local restrictions that become entrenched against gardeners. If someone doesn't protest -- city officials will just go on their merry way enacting legeslation that makes your life illegal. I wish now that I had located OUTSIDE the city limits. It gets old having the local police threatening to put me in jail every other year. Not allowed to have a stray dog which turned out to be a sweet little old lady's run-a-way pit bull. Not allowed to use cardboard to start a garden (standard permaculture technique). Not allowed to grow plants over twelve inches tall where the city thinks you should have lawn. Not allowed to have green houses without a city permit. It would be so much simpler to just move 1/2 mi down the road and be outside the city limits.

Not to mention state and fed laws directed against citizens.
SoFlaCommercial
West Palm Beach, FL
(Zone 10b)

December 21, 2011
10:08 AM

Post #8938207

one step ahead of you, pappy - quit watching Fix news (forgive me - Fox News) years ago.

But surprised that not seeing much regarding any of this - GMO, restrictive legislation, etc - on even 'liberal' stations.

it's like no one wants to admit the problems don't exist.

gloria125
Greensboro, AL

December 21, 2011
11:12 AM

Post #8938283

I think a lot of people are having crises level problems in their own back yard. One day when things are better they will be shocked at what has been happening at the federal level.
SoFlaCommercial
West Palm Beach, FL
(Zone 10b)

December 21, 2011
7:37 PM

Post #8938786

mr. pappy g:

did you find that link to share - the one where all i have to do is type in your zip code and find out what ordinances there are regarding gardening?

I'm going to bed now, but I'll check in the morning.
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 22, 2011
12:02 AM

Post #8939003

Sorry SoFla.. I usually run 12 Hour's a Day, I Manage a Restaurant, and I used to own one, so my Day's are Hectic... I will get you that Link hopefully tonight or tomorrow, I'm trying to find the one That was Prevalent to Fla...Here's One...http://www.thefloridacurrent.com/article.cfm?id=23578902
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

December 22, 2011
6:38 AM

Post #8939157

I didn't find a link to a site that gets you gardening legislation by zipcode, but I did find this forum similar to this one from 2009. It does mention a phone number to Congress where you can leave a message for your legislator.

http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/organic/msg0308221111168.html

sustained
Palm Shores, FL

December 22, 2011
9:29 AM

Post #8939316

Does this actually have to do with local farming as long as your the one consuming your product? Because if not it would seem like you could just say its normal landscaping but you just prefer to look at edible plants. I read somewhere that this is only going to be enforced if I has 1,000,000 or more in produce and its commercial.
coleup
annapolis, MD
(Zone 7b)

December 22, 2011
10:35 AM

Post #8939368

The problem is that it can be "interpreted" or enforced in any way that suits the powers that be wether local or federal and by a number of different agencies including homeland security. And property seized even if in error is not necessarily returned (computers, etc) (cheese, milk meat seeds, produce.contents of freezers, etc)
SoFlaCommercial
West Palm Beach, FL
(Zone 10b)

December 22, 2011
12:28 PM

Post #8939485

thanks mr. pappyg:

for some reason, that article is archived and the only way to view it is to sign up for some service.

but thanks for looking it up.

have a nice evening.
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 23, 2011
12:47 AM

Post #8940152

I'm sorry SoFla...the republitard's are trying to shut the Internet down it seem's, over a Tax Bill, I'm being persecuted on Yahoo, and a few other places,,,I think we're in Hell,,, or Egypt
I'll find another link.. gimme a minute...
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 23, 2011
12:55 AM

Post #8940155

http://www.politifact.com/florida/promises/scott-o-meter/promise/600/require-drug-screening-for-welfare-recipients/...Here's one... this Governor is insane...
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 23, 2011
12:56 AM

Post #8940156

I'm sorry SoFla.. theres another one I want to send you ..I'm just too tired to do it...
SoFlaCommercial
West Palm Beach, FL
(Zone 10b)

December 23, 2011
12:04 PM

Post #8940673

okay, not a problem, Mr.PappyG - what did u mean you're being persecuted on yahoo? you mean some yahoo group or something?

you mentioned you run a restaurant. if it's your restaurant, I know a woman and her husband who are really good at marketing restaurants - just putting it out there.

SoFlaCommercial
West Palm Beach, FL
(Zone 10b)

December 23, 2011
12:08 PM

Post #8940675

OMG! the link you gave me - the website says:

"This page is in an undisclosed location.
So secret, we don't know where it is either.

You’ve followed a link to a page that doesn’t exist. Please use the navigation or search box above or try starting over from our main page.

Don’t worry; we’ve notified someone that this page is missing."


...now, we're talking about this one bill aimed at limiting gardens, and now is a perfect example of the dangers of the SOPA and Internet Blacklist Bill.


do these people think we're idiots?
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

December 24, 2011
4:51 PM

Post #8941861

!!!! Sounds like sabotage, for sure!
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 25, 2011
1:10 AM

Post #8942059

So Fla...I Apologize ...I am extremely Politically active, not always in a negative way...but they seem to Persecute me anyway...I have been through an untold Series you would not believe... anyway I'll stop for now...Here's a read you might want to share after reading...
http://bestmeal.info/monsanto/company-history.shtml
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 25, 2011
1:11 AM

Post #8942061

It has taken me 3 year's to even get a Politician to say the word Monsanto...
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 28, 2011
10:31 PM

Post #8946210

SoFla... I just realized afte revisitiing the site I told you about... you probably wouldn't want to go there anyway, the Republitard's are trying to censor the Internet too... if you want I can send you anything I find on your state Legislation's attempt's on Gardening...
To me it's normal I fight this blockade nightly, for someone who's never seen it. it's Frightening... I know...
MrPappyG
Glassboro, NJ

December 28, 2011
10:35 PM

Post #8946213

I was the same way four year's ago, when I first started to investigate this...Oh I just got a message pop-up saying my Computer is in danger, another fun-filled evening...Sorry it's almost laughable now...enjoy your gardening as I do, and if anyone harasses you ... send them to me...

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