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Winter Sowing: Newbie question!!

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summerflower
Salem, OR
(Zone 8a)

January 12, 2011
9:42 AM

Post #8306626

Hi all, I have read up on winter sowing, but my question is: Are there any kind of seeds that I can put directly in to the ground without protection??
Thanks Guys!!!!
Lisa


Admin note: This user account is an alias for a past member, lljjz, whose account was terminated in July 2010 for failure to complete trades in a timely manner. This account has been terminated as well. If you find this member reappearing under any other alias, please notify us immediately.

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 12, 2011
1:07 PM

Post #8307024

Maybe I shouldn't speak up, since I kill more seeds than I grow. And I'm a total WS newbie. but maybe my ignorance will encourage someone knowledgable to answer!

But I have good luck with direct-sowing Bok Choy (like Chinese Cabbage, a Brassica), Swiss chard and Snow Peas, as long as soil and weather let them grow faster than slugs can eat them. You can put Zinnias and Marigolds right into the ground. None of them need cold-stratification to germinate, and they grow so fast they need little protection.

I think "WS" just duplicates what people used to call a sheltered seedbed, or a cold frame. It protects delicate, fussy or slow seeds until they can fend for themselves. And gives a small area excellent, sterile soil, controlled humidity and soil mositure, and extra warmth.

I think it depends on how vigorous (fast-germinating and growing) the seed is. And your soil temperature, soil diseases, the quality of your soil, and numbers of insects, snails and slugs.

I see you're in Zone 8a OR - if a rainy part of OR, I would ask: "got many slugs?" Machine-gun holes with slimy patches?

And rainfall: if the soil might dry out or be flooded, crusted or washed away by watering or heavy rain, forget direct sowing for slow-to-germinate seeds. Small WS top slits let in just a LITTLE rain or snow melt. Plastic film keeps humidity in, prevents drying out and keeps away cold, drying winds. Think "freezer burn".

If the seeds need extra warmth to sprout and grow well, they might rot or be eaten between direct sowing and establishing themselves.

WS bottles, bags, jugs and tubs protect them from predators (including cats looking for an outdoor catbox!).

Sterile seedling mix protects them from soil diseases.

The added warmth from the "cloche" or "cold frame" effect of WS probably fgives them a head start over in-the-ground seeds. In effect, it makes your effective growing season start weeks earlier. And it makes the part of Spring that comes after they germinate rather warmer than it is as seen by the bare soil.

I bet it mitigates the effect of unseasonably late hard frosts by cooling of slower at night! And makes it possible for you to drag the whole WS circus onto a sheltered porch if you get a late spring blizzard or wierd cold snap.

Seeds of vigourously-growing species that DON'T need stratification, direct sowed into warm, clean, rich, well-drained, well-aerated soil without grubs, slugs, snails, bugs and mold, probably have a great chance if you are careful about watering them lightly for the first few weeks. (But WS might get them to flower weeks earlier.)

Seeds of vigourously-growing species that DO need stratification, direct sowed at just the right time into clean, rich, well-drained, well-aerated soil without grubs, slugs, snails, bugs and mold, probably have a pretty good chance as long as weather co-operates, and you don't get late hard frosts, but DO get enough early cold to do the stratification. If they are perennials, you may not mind if the late start causes them to flower only a little the first year.

All this is opinion, not experience!

Corey
summerflower
Salem, OR
(Zone 8a)

January 12, 2011
1:20 PM

Post #8307060

Hi Corey, Thank you so much for the info!! I have lots of zinnias but have never had any luck planting in spring so maybe this will be the cure!! I am so excited, I am going out to try it now!! Thank you so much for all the time you spent giving such good info!!
Lisa

tcs1366

tcs1366
Leesburg, FL
(Zone 9a)

January 12, 2011
1:27 PM

Post #8307074

Corey... great answer.

a few reasons I WS instead of direct sown in the spring...

1) it gives me something to do in the dead of winter - i get to organize my seeds, futz with my "lists" and 'play in the dirt'
2) the containers protect the seeds from critters who will eat the seeds [birds and squirrels mostly] keeps them from blowing away or washing away.

I even WS my marigolds and zinnias

OH... #3) - I will know it's seedling and not a weed.

sometimes when i direct sow, i probably end up pulling about 25% or more - as i didnt think i planted anything in that spot.

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 12, 2011
4:01 PM

Post #8307338

>> it gives me something to do in the dead of winter

Totally! And it offloads some of the Spring Madness when we have to do 80% of our gardening in 20% of the time.

Summerflower / Lisa,

I feel better about my answer since tcs1366 implied it isn't all wrong.

And, between the two of you, I'm emboldened to admit that for several years I have violated all the rules in all the seed packets, and sown my Zinnias indoors!
They say Zinnias don't like to be transplanted.
They say Zinnias don't like little pots.
They say Zinnias should be direct-sown OUTdoors ONLY.
They say that I should wait to sow Zinnias until AFTER the soil warms up thoroughly.

All I know is that, one of my first few years starting seeds indoors, Zinnias were one of the few things that responded well to my clumsiness. They grew profusely and made me feel less like a serial seed-killer! "Ka-ching, I'm gonna do THIS again!", I said.

But if you wait to direct-sow some Zinnias outdoors into nice soil AFTER it has been warm for a few weeks, and water getly but consistently, I bet you succeed that way too. And see which flower sooner: WS or DS. Then you can post the results of a controlled experiment here, and we'll have to call your "Doctor Professor Summerflower"!

Do you already have all the Zinnia seed you need? Or would you care to try some marigolds, either big spherical "African Marigold "Crackerjack" or pretty little "French Mix"? Or who-knows-what from trades? People have been generous to me!

I happen to have a stash with some variety of Zinnias and would be glad to send you a variety.

But I guess it it getting close to "that time", so let me know soon. You can click on my name to the left, and go to my "blog" for my HAVE list.
HAVES: http://davesgarden.com/tools/blog/index.php?tabid=14585
or
Post #8301677 in Seed Trading "DJ'S 2ND TIME AROUND PT 2"

BTW, JenniferShipway is putting together a Valentine's Day seed swap that she is making very easy to prticipate in. Flowers or vegetables. (Maybe too late to Winter Sow from this year or maybe not.)
Seed Trading: Valentines Day Seed Swap Sign-up
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1148713/

Corey
CapeCodGardener
Mid-Cape, MA
(Zone 7a)

January 12, 2011
4:50 PM

Post #8307435

Corey, I sow my zinnia seeds under lights too, and transplant them outside after June 1. They do very well.

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 12, 2011
5:12 PM

Post #8307474

Ah hah! Breaking the rules - what fun!

My parents had their honeymoon on Cape Cod (1940s), then lived there after retiring (Barnstable?), and we went there for a week many summers. My sister now has their condo.

Roundabouts where are you? Tourist side or 6A?

Corey

tcs1366

tcs1366
Leesburg, FL
(Zone 9a)

January 12, 2011
5:19 PM

Post #8307480

Uggg, RoundAbouts are hazardous to those who do not know how to drive in them.

Up at our summer place, they put in a bunch of them. the first weekend it opened - someone died and a kid [19 yr old?] died last summer.
we've got about 3-4 of them in a few block area.

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 12, 2011
6:06 PM

Post #8307556

:-)

Indeed, Cape Cod has or had several. I always felt like I was in that SF movie where people skated in a circle and tried to kill each other (or I may be thinking of some actual sport).

Corey
CapeCodGardener
Mid-Cape, MA
(Zone 7a)

January 14, 2011
7:31 AM

Post #8310094

Hi there!
I live "roundabouts" LOL near Barnstable Village, north of 6a!
And yes, there are several "rotaries" on the Cape, all slightly dangerous IMHO, though none as scary as the original roundabouts in England are, which you have to enter by turning to the LEFT. Now that's nerve-wracking, at least for an American driver!
Whoa, I didn't realize DG could terminate people so explicitly.

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 14, 2011
3:16 PM

Post #8310759

Barnstable Village! Cool. My parents lived near there. I love the historic aspect of 6A, now that it is not the only way to drive anywhere (sloooooooowly).

>> Whoa, I didn't realize DG could terminate people so explicitly.

I've heard they don't like us referring to other gardening websites here in DG, but as far as i know they don't 'terminate with extreme prejudice'.


Cor ... - GACK!


tcs1366

tcs1366
Leesburg, FL
(Zone 9a)

January 14, 2011
4:07 PM

Post #8310841

I refer to other sites... but dont use links to certain ones.

it's all about sharing knowledge...

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 14, 2011
4:13 PM

Post #8310853

Amen. Even the patent office has a rule that you can't patent a law of nature.

Corey
bluegrassmom
Lewisburg, KY
(Zone 6a)

January 14, 2011
7:34 PM

Post #8311139

I love Cape Cod! I visited in 08 with my girls. Little did I know that my SIL would be stationed at the Air Force Base in MA last year. Hopefully we can make it back up this summer
:)
CapeCodGardener
Mid-Cape, MA
(Zone 7a)

January 15, 2011
8:02 AM

Post #8311710

I've actually posted occasional links to threads or webpages from other gardening sites, when I consider that the information is especially germane to the particular DG discussion of the moment, and I've not been reprimanded yet! ;-) (Even to the older site that might be considered "the competition.") Maybe I've been lucky.
I do agree that it's all about sharing knowledge, and DG has always been such a wonderful resource for bringing all sorts of information together.
Hope you get back to Cape Cod this summer, bluegrassmom! Right now, it's a toasty 29 F outside! Fall is also a lovely time to visit--not so much for the colors, but for the long mellow months of Oct. and Nov.
Shifty
Rochester, NY
(Zone 5b)

January 18, 2011
5:02 PM

Post #8317878

Hello All, I was just checking out the WS forum and came across this thread. This is my second year winter sowing. I am in zone 5b and would like to try WS zinnias this year but am wondering when I should plant. I posted this question on another site but didn't really get a response.

tcs1366 I see you are zone 5a...what date do you WS your zinnias? Just trying to get an idea of how late I should wait. Thanks so much for any advice!

tcs1366

tcs1366
Leesburg, FL
(Zone 9a)

January 18, 2011
5:14 PM

Post #8317907

I checked last years records and the first bunch was done on Mar 29th - germinated by Apr 2nd & 3rd
then next bunch was sown on April 24th, germinated on the 30th. Planted out May 13th.

OH -- plant out once you know you will not get another frost.

Terese

This message was edited Jan 18, 2011 7:14 PM
Shifty
Rochester, NY
(Zone 5b)

January 18, 2011
5:22 PM

Post #8317924

Thank you so much Terese. I have been looking for "guidance" with the zinnias...I don't want to waste too many seeds! Happy sowing! Kim

tcs1366

tcs1366
Leesburg, FL
(Zone 9a)

January 18, 2011
5:27 PM

Post #8317937

you're welcome

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 18, 2011
7:03 PM

Post #8318103

I have heard a few sources say that Zinnias like warmth, and that if you sow or transplant them outside early, they will "just wait for warm weather" and not flower any earlier.

I don't know if that's true.

Corey


tcs1366

tcs1366
Leesburg, FL
(Zone 9a)

January 18, 2011
7:53 PM

Post #8318191

Corey -- i was sort of rushed in some planting last year. I had to get plants in the ground before i left town.
so -- maybe they went in a bit early -- but they did fine. at least the ones in Zone5 did. I think all the ones I planted survived.

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 19, 2011
3:55 PM

Post #8319513

Great! That bears out what one source said: "they just wait for warmer weather".

I know what you mean about Spring being rushed. Something in 'real life" always seems to occur that interferes with gardening.

Corey

tcs1366

tcs1366
Leesburg, FL
(Zone 9a)

January 19, 2011
4:04 PM

Post #8319521

In the past 8-9 yrs i think... i can recall ONE time that we had a killing frost in May.. i recall it because a friend of DH's planted $75 worth of tomato plants. they all died. I gave him some of my seedlings, and he never planted them **shakes fist** i told DH that is the last time i gave him any plants. so that was probably 5-6 yrs ago.

one year i was gutsy enough to plant end of April first week of May and no frost. I did save the tops of the 2 ltr bottles to use as temp. green houses for really windy days... but I had early tomatoes that year. YUM.

So many times, I really depends on Mother Nature.

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 19, 2011
7:00 PM

Post #8319795

>> I did save the tops of the 2 ltr bottles to use as temp. green houses

I was trying to decide whether to use 20 oz. soft drink bottles "bottom up" or "cap up" to protect some seedlings from slugs and rain (and give them a little warmth).

I have small bottles from the work recycle bin, but no 2-liter bottles.

I was thinking that if I used them "bottom up", I could drill vent holes around 1/8th", and hope slugs couldn't squeeze through.

If I use them "cap up", I had better stuff some window screening into the mouths, or maybe punch small holes into the aluminium cap and leave it on.

Another possibility was to put down a small pinch of slug bait, and protect it from rain with the bottle. Then I could use bottles "bottom up" and drill larger vent holes, like 1/4". Then I wouldn't worry about cooking the seedlings if the sun should appear.

Does anyone know if slugs are unable to climb plastic? I think someone said that they can get into margarine tubs to reach beer. (But maybe they do that by streeeeetching.)

Corey

tcs1366

tcs1366
Leesburg, FL
(Zone 9a)

January 19, 2011
8:16 PM

Post #8319895

the one time i did 'beer' slug baits - is i sunk it in the ground. didn't work anyways.

my best defense against slug is ammonia

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 20, 2011
9:08 AM

Post #8320479

>> my best defense against slug is ammonia

Defense or offense? Does it last long if it gets rained on? I could spray some onto spots where they are likely to gather, like under every rock and paver. In late summer, before the rians start again, doing that where eggs are laid could help.

I thought ammonia was most effective when sprayed right onto a slug. If I see a slug, I cut it in half.

Once the rains stop, I'll let you know how beer works for me.

Corey

tcs1366

tcs1366
Leesburg, FL
(Zone 9a)

January 20, 2011
9:19 AM

Post #8320492

yes, you have to spray them. I dont have them too bad in my hosta bed along my garage... our back in the field yes -- but i dont have prized hostas back there. Yuck.. i couldnt cut them, so i keep the bottle handy.

Gymgirl

Gymgirl
SE Houston (Hobby), TX
(Zone 9a)

January 20, 2011
11:06 AM

Post #8320677

Do you use Sluggo Plus? It works. Sprinkle a perimeter around your growing beds, and a bit onto the bed dirt. It seems to last awhile past the rain, too.

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 20, 2011
11:53 AM

Post #8320747

I agree that Sluggo works ... until it rains. I do use it in the summer. But we average around 5 days per week with some rain (not always hard rain or all day rain), fall, winter and spring.

Corey
north of Seattle, a few miles from the coast

Shifty
Rochester, NY
(Zone 5b)

January 20, 2011
4:59 PM

Post #8321285

I have to chime in on Sluggo Plus, a friend and I ordered some last year (can't buy it locally for some reason) and tried it in our hosta beds and for the first summer...no holes! She had a similar experience. We had both used regular Sluggo but "Plus" was much better. It doesn't sound like I get as much rain as Corey though.

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 20, 2011
5:47 PM

Post #8321375

Hmm, I'll double-check the label. I don't recall whether mine said "plus".

I used to use a variety with metaldhyde, and I immeiatly saw many profuse slime trails ending at dead slugs. The iron phosphate kind does seem to reduce the numbers of the slugs, but not as dramatically.

I wish I could get a sticky liquid metaldehyde product that I could spray on Delphiniums and Penstmons! The there would be much less total chemical, MUCH less run-off, and the slugs would be drawn directly to it. maybe even plant a row of lettuce around the plants they like best, and spray the lettuce.

>> It doesn't sound like I get as much rain as Corey though.

Moss grows on roofs and driveways here. When I first moved here, we had (if I recall) 40 days ion a row with at least some rain every day. People made jokes about Noah's Ark, but did not seem surprised. However, a flash of sun during the winter IS cause for comment, and we all turn into sunflowers, standing outside looking up at the bright yellow round thing in the sky, trying to remember what it's called.

Corey

Gymgirl

Gymgirl
SE Houston (Hobby), TX
(Zone 9a)

January 21, 2011
10:04 AM

Post #8322423

LOL ^^_^^!

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

January 21, 2011
10:07 AM

Post #8322430

I saw some cartoons on cubicle walls that claimed that during "sun breaks", some people in the department would throw their clothes off and run outside to soak up the rare sun.

NOT TRUE! (I've been watching closely.)

Corey

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Other Winter Sowing Threads you might be interested in:

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Winter Sowing Seed Swap .....part 2 alicewho 213 Mar 23, 2007 1:01 PM
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Milk jugs TurtleChi 99 Mar 19, 2007 12:20 PM
WS Poppies & transplant problems marie_ 100 May 11, 2011 4:44 PM
Database germination info bluespiral 6 Mar 5, 2008 12:23 PM


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