Some of you may remember about 5 years ago the time I sprayed my Dbl. Blue Picotee plant with Messenger. There happened to be a bud on the plant that would open the next day. What bloomed was something very alien and subsequent blooms were just as weird. In order to save some of the mutant genes, the only other MG I had growing was Minibar Rose. I was only able to get 3 seeds.
For those who might be interested in reading about it, here are the links:
Here is my 3-way cross in progress. I has the varigated phenotype from mother, tie-dye pink or from grandpa Akatsuki no Umi. It also retains it's ordinary wild leaf phenotype from grandma, early call pink.
Back cross? I'm not familiar with that .. I'm thinking you mean pollinate with one of the original parent plants? If that's the case, I just happen to be growing out some Minibar & Blue Picotee this year!
Yes. Sometimes breeders do this to increase the desirable characteristics they get in their grow outs. It sounds like that is what you are doing. My family has numerous plant breeders, and I sometimes get lost with terms like double cross and double back cross, etc. This group looks real promising. Good luck. Frank
Here is an F2 grow-out of another 3-way cross I created involving, (early call pink x early call blue) large-flowered light pink and white blizzard NOID. seedlings just got finished popping up. Progeny = 25 individuals. hopefully everything works out well and I can get a lot of variation like your F2's, X.
I've got some of X's crosses on my flicker from three years ago, now the leaves on four seeds are all different, one has the variegation and the leaf structure of Mini-bar rose, the other has a little bit of variegation and flat leaves and longer vine, then the third one has solid green leaves, and yet another one has the small crinkled leaves of the platycodon and variegation, so I don't know what they will look like on these ones. The ones I have are F3s now.
Well yesterday was apparently exciting and I missed it because it was pouring rain! This morning I discovered an F2 that had split petals .. at first I thought is was just tearing but it appears way too symmetrical for tears (though some of it had torn). This is definitely a Double Blue Picotee trait.
Then even a BIGGER surprise was a shredded one .. unfortunately this single plant had lost it's tag so I don't know if it's an F2 or F3 but there are two distinctly different flowers from the same plant. The one on the right is reminiscent of the deformed flower on the parent plant which means the the deformed genes are in the genome!!!!! The one on the left is looks like pure Double Blue Picotee. also on the shredded one I did not see any viable looking pollen on the anthers because it was soaking wet nor could I see anything that looked like a pistil.
This is definitely an F2 - I know because I planted 4 seeds each of the F2 & F3's. After counting plants there were only 3 F2's and this one has to be the 4th.
X - Was the parent plant shredded bloom a bloom that occurred when the plant was a mature plant? I get some really unusual blooms on my vines as the vines age. Especially right before or during their last hurrah before dying. I have found that the shredded blooms are usually sterile. BUT ... you are right about the shredded gene being in the seeds! They can show up at any time from any future vine generations! I look forward to seeing more blooms from those vines! Congrats on getting some unusual flowers!
The original shredded bloom was from a mature plant and the one that had gotten sprayed with Messenger. The comparison picture was the 2nd shredded bloom and subsequent blooms of which the newly forming buds had been sprayed with the Messenger showed other strange characteristics as well.
I have been growing out the Dbl Blue Picotee for years and though there were odd blooms, nothing ever even came close to looking like the original and 2nd shredded blooms that had been sprayed with Messenger. Not only was the form different but there were color shifts as well. After a month or so, the plant started producing the "normal" blue picotees on the new growth that hadn't been sprayed with Messenger.
I am firmly convinced that the Messenger altered genes since every bud that was present when sprayed ended up with grossly altered flowers not only in form but in color as well. I know that this strain of Dbl Blue Picotee throws mutants, but never EVER on this order .. especially with the color shifts.
Here is a picture the closest thing to the deformed ones but you can see it is clearly different. This one was from seeds from a different plant that never did come in contact with the Messenger.
X - How interesting that you believe that Messenger has somehow altered the genetics of the flowers on your vines. I've only used Messenger once and didn't see much difference at all, so never thought to use it again. That is very worthy of your experiment alone. Did you get seeds from the mutant blooms at all? Or were those sterile? What exactly is in Messenger, do you know?
I remember Messenger was a big deal a few years ago. But I rarely hear about it now.
The vines that I grew out that started forming the mutant blooms were at the end of the life cycle of one of my vines. (Maybe more ... I don't remember.) I started getting unusual shredded looking blooms, too. I was only using MiracleGro Bloom Booster and well water. Bottom watering them. Almost all the last few blooms on mine were small and mutant. Interesting, indeed!
I couldn't find the end of the lifecycle bloom photos of my DFNM vine from 2009. But here is a collage showing some of the blooms as the vine aged. The shredded small blooms showed up towards the end of November 2009 before the vine died.
I forgot to say that I still believe these odd blooms may have been caused by the fertilizer. I know people think I am nuts, but I really fertilize my vines to get blooms so that I can hope to get seeds. Tons of blooms and lots of mutants! So if you think your vine blooms were altered by Messenger, then isn't it possible that over-fertilizing could have an affect on them, too?
Those are some interesting mutants. As I understand it, Messenger worked on a cellular level with hints in some of the papers I read, on a genetic level and wasn't really a food. I know when I first posted the Messenger Saga threads I was actually contacted by one of their biochemists asking permission to use some of my pictures .. I said yes and never heard anything back from him.
I do not think that over feeding can cause mutant blooms. As you pointed out, it's more likely as the plant aged, errors began to creep into the genome causing the deformations of your flowers. My plant could not have been more than a couple of months old since the original thread was posted in May.
I still have some unopened packets of Messenger sitting around somewhere .. I'm wondering if they are still good or if the material has a short shelf life.
I wonder what happened, I'll tell you what has happened here on our orchards. Four years ago we got 10 pecan trees, very young grafted trees, our neighbor also got about 30 pecan trees the same day, they even helped us put ours in.
I used messenger on ours, they did not, ours are three times the size as theres are today. I am not sure if it was the messenger spraying we did, or the fact that we have a drip system to each tree since we don't have water rights to the irrigation ditch.
I too wonder why it was discontinued, I still have some packets around too. I may try it on some annuals just to see what happens.
I just wanted to add about my collage of odd blooms ... all those different blooms were on a single vine. Which is what really amazed me! But not totally ...
The reason I wonder about the fertilizer is because I've gotten other really odd blooms on many other vines. I've had color patterns and flower shapes do some really weird things. The only common denominator is the fertilizer. And it usually starts happening during the middle or end of the vine's life cycle. I can't believe that I have been THAT lucky to get so many odd mutant blooms. Maybe on one or two vines, but not as many different ones as I've grown. I've been wondering about this for a couple of years now. But everyone has said no, that it is not likely. What else would cause something like that? I can't believe that I've hit some kind of jackpot with genetically crazy genes from a number of my vines. I just don't believe I've been that lucky. I think something is causing it. My mutant blooms were always completely sterile, too.
It sounds to me like Messenger was discontinued for a reason. Perhaps it was for the very reason that X discovered during her grow-out a few years ago.
X - Were all the blooms on the original vine affected by Messenger? And if so, did you get seeds from any of those blooms? If not, did you only get seeds from unexposed blooms? Were those exposed to Messenger partially or completely sterile?
A - I would guess that your Pecan trees are doing well because of a combo of good irrigation and I know you ... good fertilizer! I know you take really good care of your plants! :-)
It could be the miracle grow bloom booster type that is causing some of the mutants, remember that year I got reverse tubes on ALL the morning glory vines, it didn't matter where I purchased them from, wally world or rare types from ebay, they all had reverse tubes and I couldn't figure it out then either.
When I said that I also mean immature buds that were present at the time of spraying. Buds that formed after the ones that had been sprayed matured and bloomed were normal. The degree of weirdness was directly related to how mature the bud was when it was sprayed. That is why I'm sure it was the Messenger that did that.
No seeds - they either had no anthers or no pistils or if they had them they were immature or pollen not viable, all attempts at hand pollinating them failed. I tried, especially when this guy showed up. It was a real jaw dropper.
Here's a better picture of the Purple Speckled bloom that was almost solid purple with the white border with purple speckles. I've never seen that happen before! I really think something more than genetics is causing such weird blooms! If I knew for sure, I'd be doing it more often to get more mutants! I just wish I could get seeds from those mutant blooms! But alas, they are always either partially or completely sterile. Such is how it is with mutations... I would sure love to have a whole vine of mutant blooms! :-)
X, I had a pack of each one of the F2s and one of the F3s. I only grew the F2s a couple of years ago, so now they are labeled F3s and I also am growing a couple more of the seeds I had left from the F2s which are labeled F2s, but, to confuse you more, I'm also growing the F3s for the first time. You will notice some differences in the leaves and the plants on all of them.
These are the F3s, one plant on the right looks alot like the Mini Bar Rose with the variegation and the long strap stem, the middle one looks like a Platycodon type leaf/plant very dark green and curled a little, and the third one looks like a mix of both, then there is a very small seedling in the center of all of them with flat leaves.
I'm seeing variegation on some of my F2's but its not quite as distinct as the MBR to my eyes.
Here is today's F2 - this is on the same plant that produced the shredded one along with the pure DBP. Todays looks like pure DBP with hints of doubling - the modified anthers. I'd really like to see some of the F3's try to double but I have a feeling that doubling might be recessive.
I'm crossing my fingers that I'll get another shredded one and be able to back cross with the MBR.
X- I love your F3 with The blue picotee. Spectacular!
Here is my bloom from F1,(Akatsuki no Umi x Early call pink) x Tie-dye pink, with the white picotee from dad, Akatsuki no Umi x Early call pink with a hint of streaking from tie-dye pink. Mainly the same flower phenotype as dad, It converted to pink instead of blue. This may have happened during crossing- over in meiosis to get a phenotype from grandma, Early call pink.
X - Awesome the blooms you are getting! I really like the split petals and coloring of a normal DBP mutant!!! That is quite lovely! Actually, they ALL are! That's interesting that the leaf-shape is staying somewhat consistent, though it looks like the texture of the leaves is somewhat different on some of the vines! Great cross experiment/growout and also wonderful documentation & photos of them all!
Here are more F2's a bit different but flowers very similar to one another .. It's looking like as the plants mature they are "settling down" and variation is lessening. Though the single F2 that is planted alone is starting to consistently put out double split petals! All the doubles you see are from the same plant and I've back crossed a few with the MBR. All the doubles have pistils but no anthers. I'm also growing a Double Blue Picotee this year and will start back crossing with it as soon as it decides to flower and has pollen.
It certainly is .. the thing about the DBP line is that it doesn't consistently put out doubles - more often than not you'll get singles .. I'm hoping if I back cross it with the doubling F2, I might produce something that consistently doubles since the F2 doubled ones look like pure DBP.
I'm really wanting a Double Red Picotee .. that would be awesome to cross it with the doubling F2's.