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Propagation: Making Rooting Gel

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Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 13, 2012
3:16 PM

Post #9005534

Hello all,

I want to make my own rooting gel. I have the powder. What I need to know is what the gel its' self is made of?? It is not gelatin, at lest not the kind you get at the market. What ever it is it doesn't mold. Any ideas on what it is and where to get it?

I found this recipe but it sounds like ant heaven to me:

DIY Clone Gel Mix 2:

85% Honey
3% water
2% Seaweed extract
10% RootTone "root powder"
Many Thanks

Thumbnail by Rhapsody616
Click the image for an enlarged view.

Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 18, 2012
1:55 AM

Post #9010703

Note to self... Dyna Grow uses Carbomer. Have note found what kind for 100% but most likely carbomer 940.

Found this on on ebay:
Carbomer Aristoflex AVC (Ammonium Acryloyldimethyltaurate/ VP Copolymer)
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

February 18, 2012
6:47 AM

Post #9010897

Rhapsody,

Here is another source of Carbomer

http://www.amazon.com/MakingCosmetics-Inc-Carbomer-1-8oz-50g/dp/B005VEE2OK

I'm pretty sure the honey formula wouldn't work well, but it might be worth an experiment. The Carbomer sounds more likely. My concern with any gel rooting medium is how the roots get oxygen when submerged in a gel. Most plants must have oxygen for their roots. There are a many exceptions in the plant kingdom, plants that grow in swamps and such, but I can't think of any garden plant right offhand that doesn't need oxygen for its roots. I did an experiment with zinnias in tissue culture agar gel, and that didn't work well at all.

ZM
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 18, 2012
8:15 PM

Post #9011599

Zen_Man,Many thanks for the supplier. I will look them up and let you know how it goes. I can not wait to make my own!
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 18, 2012
10:53 PM

Post #9011682

Also looking at the following: Arrowroot Powder, Carbomer 980, Corn Starch, Guar Gum, Stearic Acid and Xanthan Gum.

http://www.essentialwholesale.com/s.nl/sc.9/category.126544/it.C/.f
___________________________
INCI: Carbomer

This ingredient is primarily used in making non-foaming gels. Typically used at .5 to 1%, it is sifted into the water phase and allowed to dissolve over time for best results then mixed well.
_____________________________
Corn Starch

Cornstarch is a silky powdery starch made from corn. Use it in body powders, milk baths, and bath bombs to add silkiness and to soothe the skin. Cornstarch is a safer alternative than using talc on babies. It can be added to diaper area barrier creams to keep the skin dry and protected from moisture. When used in water-based formulations, cornstarch will act as a thickener.
______________________
The guar seeds are dehusked, milled and screened to obtain the guar gum. It is typically produced as a free flowing, pale, off-white colored, coarse to fine ground powder. Guar gum is economical because it has almost 8 times the water-thickening potency of cornstarch - only a very small quantity is needed for producing sufficient viscosity. Thus it can be used in various multi-phase formulations: as an emulsifier because it helps to prevent oil droplets from coalescing, and/or as a stabilizer because it helps to prevent solid particles from settling.

Guar gum is more soluble than locust bean gum and is a better emulsifier as it has more galactose branch points. Unlike locust bean gum, it is not self-gelling. However, either borax or calcium can cross-link guar gum, causing it to gel. In water it is nonionic and hydrocolloidal. It is not affected by ionic strength or pH, but will degrade at pH extremes at temperature (e.g. pH 3 at 50°C). It remains stable in solution over pH range 5-7. Strong acids cause hydrolysis and loss of viscosity, and alkalies in strong concentration also tend to reduce viscosity.

Guar gum shows high low-shear viscosity but is strongly shear-thinning. It is very thixotropic above concentration 1%, but below 0.3% the thixotropy is slight. It has much greater low-shear viscosity than that of locust bean gum, and also generally greater than that of other hydrocolloids. Guar gum shows viscosity synergy with xanthan gum.
______________________
INCI:Stearic Acid
CAS#:57-11-4
EINECS#:200-313-4

Melting Point: 130F
Soluble: Oil or Alcohols
Use: 2% - 10% depending on product
Appearance:Off White to Light Yellow Flake or Pastille

Application: Anionic emulsifier commonly used for it's thickening properties and waxy feel.
_______________________________
Polysaccharide gum
Natural thickner. Water/Alcohol soluble.
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

February 19, 2012
7:33 AM

Post #9011922

Rhapsody,

Another product to look at is Gelzan. It was formerly called Gelrite, but that name had apparently already been used. It is a clear gel that is frequently used as an improvement over agar in Tissue Culture.

http://www.plantmedia.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=6698

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 19, 2012
11:19 AM

Post #9012100

Zen_Man,

You are full of all kinds of good info. Thank you for helping me on my quest! I found carbomer by the pound of ebay. Amazon was just to expensive. I am looking for a wholesale source. I am going to look for Gelzan now.

I looked at gel candle mix last night as well. Seems it is made of polymer and mineral oil. Mineral oil is sometimes used to grow seeds and a pesticide. Polymer is what carbomer is made of. I think that will work as well. What do you think??

Rhapsody
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 19, 2012
11:29 AM

Post #9012105

Note to self:
gellan gum

Function

A gelling agent produced through fermentation of an algae, gellan gum is used in molecular gastronomy to make all sorts of firm-jellied pieces with distinctive shapes.
Origin

Gellan gum is produced by fermentation. The micro-organism naturally responsible for this fermentation is the Sphingomonas elodea, which lives on an aquatic plant, Elodea Canadensis. It is native to North America and naturalized on most continents. The natural gum was discovered in the late 1970s and has since been produced by fermentation of calcium hydrates in Sphingomonas elodea monocultures extracted from natural sources. The gellan gum is then isolated from the culture bath by precipitation in an alcohol since it is not soluble in ethanol.
Properties

Gellan gum is a water-soluble gelling agent which presents very special characteristics. There are two types of gellan gum which are distinguished by their chemical composition. One has a high rate of acyl, the other a low rate of acyl. Acyl is derived from an acidic group of molecules. High-acyl gellan gum forms gels that are very flexible, elastic and that do not break. Low-acyl gellan gum, however, can create strong gels that are crumbly and non-elastic. Mixtures of these two types of gum in varying proportions can be developed to obtain the specific properties required for the many uses of gellan gum.

In an aqueous preparation, gellan gum can form a solid gel at a concentration as low as 0.1%. The temperatures for dissolving and gelling of gellan gum vary according to the types used. Dissolution occurs between 85°C (185°F) and 95°C (203°F) and gelling takes place on cooling between 10°C (50°F) and 80°C (176°F). Gellan gum gels are not thermo-reversible, that is to say, the gels formed are not altered by high heat. Once set, the high-rate acyl jelly can be heated up to about 80°C (176°F) without melting, whereas the low-rate acyl gel is able to withstand much higher levels of heat. These gels retain their stability under a wide range of pH.
Industry applications

Gellan gum is used mainly in the food industry as an anti-settling agent, thickener, stabilizer or to structure prepared foods. Used in very small doses, it acts as an anti-settling agent in liquids, while adding only a very light viscosity. It may well allow, for example, the uniform distribution of cocoa in chocolate milks or strengthening agents like calcium or fiber in all kinds of beverages.

It does not alter the taste of foods to which it is added. Gellan gum’s resistance to heat allows processed foods to better support temperature changes during transportation and storage. The processed foods most likely to contain gellan gum are: baked goods, cake icings, various sweets, jellies and spreads, jams, puddings, sauces, and many dairy products or foods ready for the microwave. Gellan gum is used as a substitute for starch in some prepared products. Finally, it offers good moisture retention. Thus, for example, pie fillings that contain gellan gum are less likely to wet the crust.

Gelatinous beverages are very popular in Southeast Asia and gellan gum can be used to make them. It was also used by the Clearly Canadian Beverage Corporation company, in the late 1990’s, for a briefly marketed drink in North America called Orbitz, which featured suspended colored flavor spheres in a clear liquid

Gellan gum can also be used in cosmetic and hygiene products such as makeup, facial masks, creams and lotions, for a good hold and a pleasant texture. It can also be used as an anti-settling agent and stabilizer in shampoos and conditioners. In sunscreens, gellan gum can be used to stabilize the oily phase and to distribute active agents uniformly.

In pharmaceuticals, for example, gellan gum is used to make tablets that are easy to swallow, as well as to adjust the rate of release of their medicinal compounds in the body. It is also used in biotechnology, as replacement for agar-agar, as a growth environment of bacteria. Indeed, gellan gum offers benefits in the cultivation of thermophilic microorganisms, that is to say, living at high temperatures. Finally, it is used in the manufacturing of indoor deodorizers to be used in warm environments such as cars.
Creative cooking applications

As a gelling agent, gellan gum can be used to achieve a variety of jellies and a multitude of dishes requiring jelly, such as terrines or aspics. To activate its properties, the gellan gum powder needs only to be dispersed in a liquid of choice, heated and stirred until dissolved. The gelling will occur during cooling and it may be necessary to place the preparation in the refrigerator. Gellan gum gels are easily sculpted so it is often used to make all sorts of original dishes from a full range of liquid foods such as broths, infusions and juices.

http://www.moleculargastronomynetwork.com/19-additives/Gellan-Gum.html
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

February 19, 2012
11:34 AM

Post #9012109

Rhapsody--the term "polymer" refers to a HUGE range of different materials (anything from rooting gel to the stuff plastic bottles are made of and a million other things), some of which might be suitable for rooting gel but many of which are not. So just because the gel candle says it has polymer in it, it doesn't mean it's the same thing as carbomer, they are two different types of polymer. I would be surprised if the stuff for gel candles would make suitable propagation medium, although if you've got cuttings to spare there's no harm in experimenting.
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 19, 2012
11:36 AM

Post #9012113

Gelzan™

Synonym: Gelrite
Agar substitute produced from a bacterial substrate composed of glucaronic acid, rhamnose and glucose
Aids in the detection of microbial contaminants
Custom-made packages in sizes between 2 and 2.5 g each
Gel Strength: 400–700 g/cm2
Gelling Temperature: 29–31°C
Loss on drying: 6–16%
Soluble in boiling water

Gelzan™ is a registered trademark of the Monsanto Company
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 19, 2012
11:41 AM

Post #9012116

E400 Alginic acid (also a Thickener, Stabiliser, Emulsifier)

E401 Sodium alginate (also a Thickener, Stabiliser, Emulsifier)

E402 Potassium alginate (also a Thickener, Stabiliser, Emulsifier)

E404 Calcium alginate (also a Thickener, Stabiliser, Emulsifier)

E406 Agar (also a Thickener, Emulsifier)

Agar-Agar is produced from members of the Gelidiacae, Sphaerococcaceae and Rhodophyceae seaweed families. It is used in food as a gelling agent, although the resulting coagulation is rather brittle and not as effective as carrageenan or gelatin.
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 19, 2012
1:07 PM

Post #9012214

ecrane3
Thank you for you input as well. Polymer is a very wide topic for sure! I will figure it out. Seems there are a lot of gelling agents as well. I do not want my home made rooting gel to mold after all of my efforts. Any info you can provide would be great as well!

Rhapsody
Texasgal77
Baytown, TX
(Zone 9a)

February 23, 2012
10:06 PM

Post #9017872

Candle gel has been known to be very flammable. There was a news article on one of our local TV stations about home fires started from candle gel.

After trying your rooting gel, please let us know how it works!!!! I would be very interested in it's success rate.
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 25, 2012
1:12 AM

Post #9019111

Texasgal77,
I am excited to make the gel and will let you know who it turns out!
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

February 25, 2012
7:50 AM

Post #9019376

Rhapsody,

I am curious how it turns out, too. I still have concerns that rooting gel would exclude oxygen from the plant roots and essentially "drown them". But your lead-off picture is quite interesting, because it makes the roots so visible.

Hydroponics growers can grow plant roots naked like that, because they aerate the water that their plants grow in. I don't see how that is possible with a gel.

If I were doing experiments with gel, I would try to incorporate some hydrogen peroxide or some other source of oxygen for the plant roots. Unfortunately, there is some chance that hydrogen peroxide would react unfavorably with the rooting hormone used. Or the gel itself.

But do show us pictures of your ongoing activities. Experiments like this are interesting.

ZM
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 27, 2012
11:01 PM

Post #9022837

Zen_Man,
I'm liking the HP idea. I will keep it in mind. I am looking up MSDS sheets for currently existing rooting gel mixes. Seems like the water portion of the gels are 98%. Maybe that is why the do not add in HP.

Dyna Gro Root Gel
Carbomer 672, Polymer,
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 27, 2012
11:03 PM

Post #9022838

Zen_Man,
I'm liking the HP idea. I will keep it in mind. I am looking up MSDS sheets for currently existing rooting gel mixes. Seems like the water portion of the gels are 98%. Maybe that is why the do not add in HP.

Dyna Gro Root Gel
Carbomer 672, Polymer, <1%, 9007-20-9
1-Naphthalene acetic Acid. C10H7CH2COOH, <0.03%, 86-87-3
3-Indole Butyric Acid, C12H13NO2, <0.22%, 133-32-4
Thiamine Mononitrate, C12H17N5O4S, <0.03%, 532-43-4

Clonex
2.hydroxyethylcel1ulose, 9004-62-0, 1.2%
indole butyric acid. 205-101-5, 133-32-4, 0.3%
crystal violet dye, 208-953-6, 548-62-9, 0.0012%
water, >98%

Olivias,
ammoniacal nitrogen, 0.025%
nitrate nitrogen, 0.055%
phosphoric acid 0.15%
acrylic polymer

Rootech
Propylene glycol 57-55-6 10 - 30
1H-indole-3-butanoic acid 133-32-4 0.5

This message was edited Feb 28, 2012 8:04 AM
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

February 28, 2012
5:44 AM

Post #9022977

Rhapsody,

The "drug store" grade of hydrogen peroxide is 3%, so it is 97% water. You could use the HP to replace a little of the water, and not change the percentage of water appreciably from 98%. However, my concern is that the hydrogen peroxide might "attack" the gel and/or the rooting hormone chemically, or it might release many small bubbles of oxygen, defeating the clarity of the medium. Wouldn't hurt to experiment, though.

ZM
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

February 29, 2012
11:16 PM

Post #9025414

zen man,
The clarity is not an issue! it is just for me. I do not care if it turn lime green so long as it works!! You have been a blessing along my path. I will keep you updated. Hoooooo. I am getting excited!!

Rhapsdoy
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

March 1, 2012
7:14 AM

Post #9025680

Rhapsody,

"The clarity is not an issue!"

Your original picture seems to show a cutting rooting and growing in a gel medium. My concern is that a gel is not an appropriate rooting medium for many, perhaps most, plants. If the gel is meant just to stick some of the rooting hormone to a cutting that you dip in it and then place in a more conventional rooting medium, like Perlite or Vermiculite or sand or whatever, then the gel seems to be appropriate. In that case, the gel would be just a way of adhering a reasonable, rather small amount of the rooting hormone to the cutting stub.

When I use the powder form rooting hormones, I dip a cutting into water to get it wet, then into the powder, and some of the powder sticks to the cutting. Then I stick the cutting into a small plastic pot containing rooting medium (I use a mix of Premier ProMix BX and Perlite) and place the pot under a humidity dome that is lit with fluorescent lights. Some of the powder usually falls off in the transfer process. If all goes well, in 10 to 14 days enough roots will have formed to remove the pot from under the humidity dome and let the new plant develop on its own.

I have used several commercial rooting hormone powders, including Hormex and Rootone. The variable in this process is the rooting powder, and how much of it sticks to and stays with the original cutting. I also use the commercial liquid product called Dip-n-Gro, and it is also an issue of how much of it sticks to the cutting and remains with it. Dip-n-Gro is my current favorite rooting hormone.

"I do not care if it turn lime green so long as it works!!"

I can understand that a gel would be superior to both a powder and a liquid by having a known amount of it dependably stick to and remain with a cutting. But aside from the interesting view of the developing roots, it doesn't seem to me that a gel is an appropriate rooting medium. Think of the mess when it comes time to re-pot the cutting in a gel to a larger pot! And the issue of getting adequate oxygen to the developing roots remains.

The attached picture shows some of my zinnia cuttings that have successfully rooted. I took that picture a couple of seasons ago. The "clear" plastic pots let me observe the root development well enough to judge when the cuttings can be taken out from under the humidity dome. I think I used Dip-n-Gro on them. Incidentally, Dip-n-Gro does not keep it potency indefinitely. It can lose its potency after a year or two. This coming Fall I will start with a fresh bottle of Dip-n-Gro and take some cuttings to rescue a few choice "breeder" zinnias from the killing frost. That will let me experiment with them over the Winter. (I have some hand-hybridized zinnias growing indoors under lights right now.)

I am interested in alternative rooting methods, because I learned about the loss of potency of the Dip-n-Gro the hard way, with several trays of cuttings that didn't "take". They really should print an expiration date on the package, and insure that their dealers store it properly. I wouldn't be adverse to making my own rooting hormone and storing it in the refrigerator.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)

Thumbnail by Zen_Man
Click the image for an enlarged view.

Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 2, 2012
12:19 AM

Post #9026650

Zen Man

Clear gel is a product on the market called Gel2Root Rooting Gel. Here is a link:

http://www.horticulturesource.com/planters-pride-gel-2-root-6-pack-p4625/

I work better with gels as a rooting hormone. Every time I have used a powder the cutting just die. This is just a bit of fun form me. Hopefully it works!

Many herbal blessings
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 2, 2012
12:36 AM

Post #9026652

here is another link! I seems to work for me!

http://www.nugel.co.uk/images/stories/nugel-docs/Gel2Root_Fact_Pack.pdf
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 2, 2012
12:58 AM

Post #9026653

Note to self trace minerals

Trace Minerals for Plants
Plants Love Trace Minerals!

Plant respond very well to trace minerals. Why? Because the 74 minerals contained in the top trace mineral products are vital for plant growth. Many of these minerals are absent from the soil. But it's easy to get your plants healthy and growing with trace minerals.
Trace Minerals for Plants

Just add just 1 drop of Trace Minerals to each gallon of water. Then, water your plants like you normally would.

Heal sick plants with Trace Minerals
Tomatoes taste better when watered with Trace Minerals
Growth typically increasing after the first 2 months of Trace Mineral supplementation

Plus, trace minerals are good for your body too!
http://www.trace-mineral-drops.com/trace-minerals-for-plants.html
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

March 2, 2012
11:02 AM

Post #9027100

Rhapsody,

That second link was much more informative. My interest in rooting cuttings lies primarily with propagating zinnias from cuttings, and zinnias do not appear in any of the lists of plants that you can propagate with the gel mediums. The Gel2Root clear plastic containers are rather thin (and small), and oxygen can diffuse through some plastic films, so that may explain why the Gel2Root product can work with respect to the Oxygen issue.

I guess that you are seeking to make your own homemade version of the Gel2Root product, and I wish you success in that endeavor. Keep us informed of your progress.

"Plant respond very well to trace minerals. Why? Because the 74 minerals contained in the top trace mineral products are vital for plant growth."

74 minerals are vital? Really!? I would question that. It is true that several trace minerals are vital to plants, including those that are frequently included in "complete" soluble nutrient formulas. But the list of "vital" trace elements for plant growth is far less than 74. If you have doubts about that, there is plenty of information available on which trace elements are needed by plants, and in what amounts.

I do agree that trace elements are an important component of plant nutrition. In addition to the "obvious" Carbon, Hydrogen, and Oxygen, the essential elements for plants are Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potassium, Calcium, Magnesium, Sulfur, Iron, Manganese, Copper, Boron, Zinc, Molybdenum, Chlorine, and Nickel. Cobalt also plays a role in some plants, but it is classified as "beneficial" and not as "vital". I actually include a trace of Cobalt Sulfate in my "total nutrition" zinnia formula. Other "beneficial" elements are Aluminum, Selenium, Silicon, Sodium, and Vanadium. Notice that I have mentioned far less than 74 elements.

I consider Silicon to be an important "beneficial" element. It isn't classified as "vital" because plants can live without it. But plants will take up a considerable amount of soluble silicon through their root system if it is available in the soil water. Plants will absorb and use amounts of soluble silicon far in excess of what is considered as "trace". Silicon benefits the plant in several ways, with stronger cell walls and stronger stems. Rice farmers purchase fertilizers with significant quantities of added silicon to prevent stem breakage and consequent crop loss. I use the commercial product called Pro-TeKt as a silicon source for my zinnias.

http://www.dyna-gro.com/003.htm

I include the Potassium Silicate in the dilute nutrient solutions that I water my zinnias with. Some studies have indicated that Silicon increases the resistance of zinnias to foliage diseases.

ZM
(not associated with any product or vendor mentioned or linked)
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

March 2, 2012
12:15 PM

Post #9027169

My hypothesis is that plants that root well in the gel would be the same type of plants that can root well in water. There is oxygen present in water (and in the gel) but plants that are rooted in water form roots with a different structure vs plants that are rooted in soil because it requires a little different mechanism to get nutrients, etc out of water vs out of soil.
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

March 2, 2012
12:44 PM

Post #9027197

Unless you have just boiled it, there is some oxygen dissolved in the water. Not a whole lot, and perhaps not enough to supply the needs of many plants. But enough to keep fish going.

In agreement with what you are saying, Coleus root easily in water, and I notice that it is one of their example plants. If you try to root a zinnia cutting in water, it promptly succumbs to a bacterial rot. So I have to deal with that in starting my zinnia cuttings. Physan 20 is what I currently use to prevent bacterial infection. In higher concentrations, Physan 20 can be phytotoxic, but there is a "happy medium" with it that controls bacteria while not harming the zinnia.

ZM
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 3, 2012
1:18 AM

Post #9027877

ecrane3,
That was my thinking as well and it brings a very good point! I am not trying to make a rooting gel that you many root in. I am trying to make a root gel like dyna gro... just dip and put in soil or pearl lit or what have you!
Tanks
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

March 3, 2012
7:23 AM

Post #9028098

I guess the picture you posted in your first post was confusing then, that's why I thought you wanted to root things in gel. If you're just using it as a medium to dip in then it's not going to be as critical what you use--that sort of gel is really just a means to get the active ingredient to stick to the cutting. Can't think it'll work much different than if you just use your powder though so not sure why you'd go to all the trouble?
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 3, 2012
11:38 PM

Post #9029059

ecrane3

"...not sure why you'd go to all the trouble?"

I am not the kind of person that is satisfied with others doing things for me. I like to pull things apart and see what I can do on my own!

In my searches I have found many different formulations and strengths. I would like to formulate something a bit stranger then what I have available to me. Eventually I would like to make a gel similar to the first picture posted. One step at a time for me! I am making a dip rooting gel!
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

March 4, 2012
9:06 AM

Post #9029452

Stronger isn't necessarily better when it comes to rooting hormone...different amounts are optimal for different types of cuttings. Here's a page for Dip n Gro that outlines suggested concentrations; even if you make your own I wouldn't go over what they suggest: http://www.dipngrow.com/q-what-is-the-correct-dilution-of-dipn-grow

If you're going to try to make your own gel, I would probably buy something like the Dip 'n Gro concentrate instead of the rooting powder which you mention in the original recipe you found--the powder is already at the proper concentration and meant to be used as-is so mixing it into a gel is just going to dilute it unless you use just a tiny bit of gel to help it stick. The concentrate on the other hand is meant to be diluted in water, so you could add it to your gel instead of water and get the right concentration.

For the gel, as long as you're just using it to dip things, you could use pretty much any water-based gel. In this case all the gel is doing is helping the hormone stick to the cutting so you don't have all the considerations about whether or not the gel is a suitable growing medium or not. So any of the polymers & gelling media you've mentioned earlier (except the candle gel which would be oil-based) ought to work fine.
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 4, 2012
1:17 PM

Post #9029693

ecrane3,
Thank you for your insight. I already have the dip n gro and have chosen Hydroxyethyl Cellulose Natrosol 250 as the thicken. I am going to add a little Super Thrive and Thiram (fungicide) and see how it works.
Thanks
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 14, 2012
11:52 PM

Post #9043261

OK... I think I am ready. I looked at Clonex MSDS sheet. Here is the break down of their reported components:

2.hydroxyethyl cellulose, 9004-62-0, 1.2%
indole butyric acid. 205-101-5, 133-32-4, 0.3%
crystal violet dye, 208-953-6, 548-62-9, 0.0012%
water, > 98%


I need to go to Home Depot or Harbor Freight and get a long bit with a circular head to use in the mixing process.

This is what I am going to try first:

Making 4 oz jar
hydroxyethyl cellulose 1.2% 1.36077711 g
indole butyric acid 0.3% 340.194278 mg
Super thrive 0.2% 2.26796185 grams
water 98% 109.99615 g
crystal violet dye 0.0012%, No color
Magnesium Stearate 0.3% 340.194278 mg

1. Bring the water to a rolling boil. Use a thermometer to assure the water reaches 120 degrees c.
2. Mix hydroxyethyl cellulose and Magnesium Stearate together dry
3. Add in hydroxyethyl cellulose and Magnesium Stearate slowly so no climbing occurs
4. Mix well with Adjutator. Turn off the heat and add in IBA and Superthrive. Continue mixing for 10 min. Indole butyric acid has a melting point of 123-124 c so the mixture must be hot still when added.
5. Mix for another 20 min then set the mixture aside at room temp for 24 hours.


Wish me luck!
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

March 15, 2012
7:18 AM

Post #9043500

You won't get your water to 120C because it boils at 100C (unless you're doing this in a pressure cooker). If you try to keep heating it to get it hotter than that it'll just keep evaporating and turning to steam but the water that's still in the pot will stay at 100C. If you were trying to get it to 120C just for the sake of melting the IBA that's not necessary...you're trying to dissolve the IBA not melt it (don't need to melt something in order to dissolve it). You shouldn't need to boil it to incorporate the hydroxyethylcellulose (and hot water might even make it harder to incorporate it) so if you even need to heat it at all you will probably have better luck with warm rather than hot water.

Hopefully you have the water-soluble IBA (which is actually a salt of IBA, not the straight acid), it would dissolve nicely in water and it probably doesn't even need to be super hot (although having warm water will dissolve things faster than cold water). The straight acid IBA won't dissolve in water, it needs to be dissolved in alcohol and trying to heat it up and melt it in your water solution won't get it mixed nicely into your solution even if it were possible to get the water up to IBA's melting point. Here's a source for the water soluble kind if that's not what you have: http://www.plantsandstuff.com/Products.html

I would probably let things cool down a bit before you add the Superthrive--I'm not sure how heat-stable the ingredients in it are so I'd add it only if the water is warm vs hot.

Also, when you add the HEC, I would make sure to add it very slowly and with as much agitation as possible--some of these gelling polymers can clump in the water as you're adding them and form "fish eyes" which can be hard to get rid of. Depending on what molecular weight HEC you have it may be more or less prone to doing this, so you may have to experiment a few times to get that part right. If you have problems the first time, you may also want to play around with your water temperatures a bit...you could have better luck incorporating it smoothly and without fish eyes at a lower temperature.
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 17, 2012
10:26 PM

Post #9046884

ecrane3,

Thank you again. You are always a source of good info. My IBA is water soluble. NATROSOL™ 250 H4R (HEC) works well in hot or cold water. Natrosol R-grade disperses readily in water without lumping.

"Description Natrosol hydroxyethylcellulose (HEC) is a nonionic water soluble polymer derived from cellulose. Like Aqualon cellulose gum (sodium carboxymethylcellulose), it is a cellulose ether, but it differs in that it is nonionic and its solutions are unaffected by cations. Natrosol dissolves readily in cold or hot water. Its solutions have somewhat different flow properties from those obtained with other water-soluble polymers. It is used to produce solutions having a wide range of viscosity. Such solutions are pseudoplastic—that is, they vary in viscosity depending on the amount of shear stress applied. "

As for the water, you are correct about the boiling point. I guess I have made one to many candles and was thinking flash point!

Making 4 oz jar
hydroxyethyl cellulose 1.2% 1.36077711 g
indole butyric acid 0.3% 340.194278 mg
Super thrive 0.2% 2.26796185 grams
water 98% 109.99615 g
crystal violet dye 0.0012%, No color
Magnesium Stearate 0.3% 340.194278 mg

1. Bring the water to a low boil.
2. Mix hydroxyethyl cellulose and Magnesium Stearate together dry.
3. Add in hydroxyethyl cellulose and Magnesium Stearate slowly so no climbing occurs
4. Mix well with Adjutator. Turn off the heat. Mix for 15 min allowing to cool down a bit. then add in IBA and Superthrive.
5. Mix for another 15-20 min then set the mixture aside at room temp for 24 hours.

What do you think about this set of instructions?
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

March 18, 2012
6:53 AM

Post #9047085

The boiling still feels unnecessary, not sure why you're doing that but otherwise it seems good. One more thing though...what is the magnesium stearate for? It's another thing that's not going to dissolve in water regardless of whether you boil it, so while you can disperse it in the water it's going to end up making it cloudy rather than clear like the gel you have pictured above. And I'm not sure what its purpose is in the formula (especially since it's not in the original recipe you were trying to mimic)
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 18, 2012
12:44 PM

Post #9047467


The boiling still feels unnecessary--->> To kill any contamination in the water before I use it.
what is the magnesium stearate for?--->> It makes the gel.
making it cloudy rather than clear like the gel--->>> Still do not care if it is cloudy or not, especially on my first try. And again, not trying to make a thick rooting pot, just a dipping gel.
(especially since it's not in the original recipe you were trying to mimic)--->> I want mine a bit thicker than the watery stuff I have been receiving from mass market products. I want it to stick to the steam, not drip off.

ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

March 18, 2012
2:43 PM

Post #9047629

It doesn't hurt to boil your water first (probably not necessary either), but if you try to keep the gel around a long time there are enough mold spores, etc floating around in the air that will get in there and make stuff grow so boiling won't really solve the problem. You'd need to add a preservative if you run into problems with fungal growth, etc.

Are you thinking the magnesium stearate will make a gel because it's something you've used or read about using in candles? Candle gels are oil based and work completely differently than water based gels like this one. Magnesium stearate won't do much for a water based gel, it'll just float around in it as particles or sink to the bottom if the particles are a bit too large to stay suspended; either way it won't do anything for you. If you want this gel to be thicker, try using a higher level of the HEC polymer--play around a bit until you get something the thickness you want.
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 18, 2012
2:59 PM

Post #9047645

OK. I am happy with the outcome so far. I heated the water, added in my goodies and I mixed for 20 min. The constancy is hard to describe. It moves like cold thick pancake syrup. Not as thick ad Dyna Grow but thicker then Clonex. Lets see what it look like in 24 hours.

I am supper excited about this!

Rhapsody

Thumbnail by Rhapsody616
Click the image for an enlarged view.

Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 25, 2012
4:50 PM

Post #9056726

OK, seven days later my cloning gel has the consistency of a thick shampoo and no mold. I am a happy camper. Now let's see how it works!
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

March 25, 2012
6:38 PM

Post #9056897

Good luck!
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

March 25, 2012
7:19 PM

Post #9056946

Thanks. I thought I would try it on my rose geraniums and see what happens.
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

April 14, 2012
11:54 PM

Post #9082930

Last week I used my rooting gel for the first time. I rooted catnip, Tahitian Bridal Veil, Pennyroyal and Crassula Emerald. I can not tell you much about the roots, but what I can tell you is they are growing!!

I used it in a slightly different method then I had used before. I made a small hole and dropped some of my gel in it. I then put the cutting in place. If there was a clear stem I firmed up the soil. If not I just it them in place. One week later they are showing new growth!!!

So far so good!
Incredablehefey
Buena Park, CA

December 6, 2012
9:32 AM

Post #9351293

Great thread! Rhapsody... i cant wait for an update.
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

December 7, 2012
12:17 AM

Post #9351933

OMG Incredablehefey! That you so much! My cuttings rooted with my rooting gel are off the hook. It was fun making it. I say everyone should give it a go. The only thing is I did not cap it up well and it dried out. But I have plenty of supplies to make more... and I will do so. I think part of the reason it worked so well is it was fresh and had lots of air in the mix.

blomma

blomma
Wyoming, WY
(Zone 4a)

January 6, 2013
12:31 AM

Post #9376853

My daughter bougth and tried rooting gel. She put in a cutting of Russian Sage. It rooted, but when she pulled it out, they roots broke off. I am assuming that one should more or less losen the gel around the roots so they stay intact.
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

January 6, 2013
12:37 AM

Post #9376856

If it is supper thick maybe. I would scoop it out with a fork, plant it in soil and water it. The gel I made was the consistency of pancake syrup.

blomma

blomma
Wyoming, WY
(Zone 4a)

January 6, 2013
10:53 AM

Post #9377202

It was thick enough to hold the cutting upright. Was like jello.
Rhapsody616
Long Beach, CA

January 6, 2013
11:15 AM

Post #9377233

Then scoop it out or wait until the roots are a good size. You could also open the foil and rinse the gel off of the roots then plant it!
Rhapsody

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