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Tomatoes: what is wrong with tomato leaf?

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michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 17, 2012
4:21 PM

Post #9127638

Here's a what the leaves on several of my seed grown tomatoes look like. They are on containers, not the ground. Does anyone know FOR SURE (or close to for sure) what's going on with the leaves? (I don't mean this in a rude way but if you're not an experienced tomato gardener and pretty confident about your diagnosis, please don't respond as that only adds to the confusion.) I have taken sample leaves to three different nurseries and have gotten three different answers, ranging from no big deal- ignore, to terminal virus- destroy. Thanks to anyone who can provide experienced advice!

Sorry about the slight blurring but it's very windy here today.

Thumbnail by michaelangelo   Thumbnail by michaelangelo
Click an image for an enlarged view.

riceke

riceke
Snellville, GA
(Zone 7b)

May 18, 2012
6:14 AM

Post #9128174

Michaelangelo...I've had this myself on pot grown plants and always suspected it was fertilizer burn or sun burn or combination of both. It seemed in my case though that eventually the new leaves were okay after a while and didn't affect the plant. But here's a good wesite that you can see pictures of the various maladies that affect tomatoes:

http://www.extension.iastate.edu/publications/pm1266.pdf

koshki
Grosse Pointe Shores, MI
(Zone 6a)

May 18, 2012
8:29 AM

Post #9128419

MA, I put my tomatoes in containers last weekend and then we promptly had a cold rainy night. Woke to find a few leaves that look very much like yours. New leaves are not showing any of the same signs, so I just chalked it up to "exposure".

I've had the same thing in years past and have not had a problem with the plants. Not an expert here, but have had the same experience before without calamity.
Carolyn
Salem, NY
(Zone 4b)

May 19, 2012
2:10 PM

Post #9129760

I'm not SURE of what I'm seeing, but I'm posting anyway. LOL

On the second picture I think there's some spots there that need to be IDed, in addition to the white on the leaves, which is not sunscald but could be wind burn. How long have the containners and plants been out and what has the weather been like.

I see about a zero possibility that it's a virus infection in MN.

So it could be a foliage disease as well as wind burn.

Nope, not an expert here, but as I said, posting anyway and was hoping you could get some better, sharper pictures.

Are ALL of your plants affected like that?

Carolyn


michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 19, 2012
10:22 PM

Post #9130157

About 5 out of 15 tomato plants had this. I have since trimmed those stems off and "so far" the plants seem OK. Only the lower leaves were affected -- the leaves on the upper stems are actually nice and green. Probably NOT wind burn though as I have had them in a homemade greenhouse tent (just white plastic sheeting and 1x2 framing) so they have been protected from the wind. Weather was weird this Spring and they were drug in and out of the garage to the tent many times when the overnight temps were forecast to be 40 or less. I did repot several of them more than once as I had a terrible time getting a medium that wasn't water-logging them. I wound up mixing up so many recipe combinations (unintentionally) that in the end I resorted to for 50% Pro-Mix and 50% mongrel mix.

A kindly note about my note on knowledgeable advice: What I have found on most community forum threads (and for what it's worth I am in the midst of earning an Online Learning Certification from a major University - online community is a big part of that certification): Two things frequently happen (almost always unintentionally) to threads that pose a question about a problem: (1) with the best of intentions, members post "guesses" rather than answers based on specific experience, which as I mentioned in my first post, only adds to the confusion and frustration of trying to sort out accurate answers. (2) Lots of replies often causes other readers (who may actually have useful experience) to pass over the posting because it appears that plenty of answers have already been given. It can be very frustrating when you have what "might" be a serious problem and you want to work on resolving it accurately and quickly. That is and was my only reason for adding the note.

Carolyn: If you are the same Carolyn who has answered many gardening questions for me over the past 5 years or so... Thank You!
Doug9345
Durhamville, NY
(Zone 5b)

May 20, 2012
10:23 AM

Post #9130637

[quote="michaelangelo"]About 5 out of 15 tomato plants had this. I have since trimmed those stems off and "so far" the plants seem OK. Only the lower leaves were affected -- the leaves on the upper stems are actually nice and green. Probably NOT wind burn though as I have had them in a homemade greenhouse tent (just white plastic sheeting and 1x2 framing) so they have been protected from the wind. Weather was weird this Spring and they were drug in and out of the garage to the tent many times when the overnight temps were forecast to be 40 or less. I did repot several of them more than once as I had a terrible time getting a medium that wasn't water-logging them. I wound up mixing up so many recipe combinations (unintentionally) that in the end I resorted to for 50% Pro-Mix and 50% mongrel mix.

A kindly note about my note on knowledgeable advice: What I have found on most community forum threads (and for what it's worth I am in the midst of earning an Online Learning Certification from a major University - online community is a big part of that certification): Two things frequently happen (almost always unintentionally) to threads that pose a question about a problem: (1) with the best of intentions, members post "guesses" rather than answers based on specific experience, which as I mentioned in my first post, only adds to the confusion and frustration of trying to sort out accurate answers. (2) Lots of replies often causes other readers (who may actually have useful experience) to pass over the posting because it appears that plenty of answers have already been given. It can be very frustrating when you have what "might" be a serious problem and you want to work on resolving it accurately and quickly. That is and was my only reason for adding the note.

[/quote]

Well. I see several things here. You want an accurate diagnosis when you post two out of focus pictures and leave out much useful information that you included in the post just before this one.

As far as guesses are concerned, ALL diagnoses are guesses. Some of them are just based on more knowledge and information than others. The whole point of a community based forum is to aggregate the collective knowledge of the group. It is the posters job to figure out how this experience fits with their situation. After all, you are there, we aren't.

As for this example, to me it look like an exposure problem. either sun scald or wind burn, but since I haven't grow tomatoes in all areas of the country and I'm not a specialist in tomatoes diseases I don't know that there isn't some other disease that mimics the problem, but you lost out on one comment and likely many more, any one of which could be the right one or prompt you to supply more information which could lead you to the right one.


I've been trying to figure out how to word this so it didn't sound like an attack. The post didn't come across to me so much as rude as it did condescending.



Edited to fix a typo and most likely add two more. :-)




This message was edited May 20, 2012 2:29 PM
podster
Deep East Texas, TX
(Zone 8a)

May 20, 2012
10:34 AM

Post #9130650

Well said Doug9345 and if I may...

As a result of the comment [quote] Probably NOT wind burn though as I have had them in a homemade greenhouse tent [/quote] and the fact that I have lived and gardened in Minnesota, my intuition would say sun scald.
The sun is easily intensified by most greenhouse material and even stronger the further north one goes. Kristi
JoParrott
Richland, WA
(Zone 7b)

May 20, 2012
12:23 PM

Post #9130730

All I will say is that if I post concerning a problem, I would surely not ask anyone to not reply unless he/she is an expert. I really don't think many can qualify as an undisputed "expert" on much of anything. We all can learn something, and if I felt that I had any thing helpful, I would not want to have been gagged by qualifying statements. Just my opinion.
1lisac
Liberty Hill, TX
(Zone 8a)

May 20, 2012
2:09 PM

Post #9130837

If I post a question Im grateful for ALL the responses I get. Since pics are stagnant it can be very difficult to get a proper diagnosis from them. Also the pics are kind of blurry (Im not one to complain about that, as I have the same issue myself).

I didnt respond to this thread, even tho it looked like sun scald or windburn to me, because the original post didnt give enough info for me and Im not an expert on anything. There are suspicious looking "marks" on the leaves but that might be potting soil.

For what its worth, I think it is some kind of "burn". When you mention the plastic which magnifies the sun Im thinking sun scald. But regardless, if the new leaves look good, there is no wilting or other signs of disease, I believe you are good to go.
What kind of tomatoes are they?
michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 20, 2012
3:21 PM

Post #9130904

hang on... I think a few of you are misunderstanding my posts while at the same time demonstrating exactly why I included the "note" about responses in the first place.

1. please tell me where *I* used the word "expert" or even a synonym for expert (in fact, I wrote "Does anyone know FOR SURE (or close to for sure)" and emphasized the word "experienced." I also explained in my first post that I did not mean to be rude and referred to it as intended in a kindly way.

2. My request was not only politely stated but it's a very reasonable thing to include and anyone who chooses to take offense is kind of volunteering to be offended. I think those of you who are accusing me of being rude or ungrateful might consider rereading ALL that *I* wrote in this thread with an open mind.

3. When I have received helpful feedback I always try to get back to thank people, but I've also learned from many years of experience with online community and about 5 years here at DG that many people post just for the sake of posting ("yeah, I had spots on my lima bean leaves one time too," etc.) and before you know it the thread is about lima beans, or changes to talk about the weather in Texas. It doesn't matter that the off topic shift may be unintentional, it is essentially hi-jacking someone's threat... and that IS rude (even though it may not be intended). And isn't that exactly what has happened here?

I am responding in earnest because both Carolyn (if I have the right one) and JoParrot for sure have given me some great help in the past, as have many others at DG. But I think there are a few people (catching the sarcasm in their responses) who are just bored. There is NOTHING I wrote that should cause ANYONE offense. Asking people who are not sure to hold back is hardly rude or inappropriate and how I stated it could be considered impolite unless someone is looking to take it that way. So...

To anyone who has provided helpful (not necessarily "expert") advice over the 5 years I've been on DG - I sincerely THANK YOU! To anyone who feels offended, I would ask you to go back and reread my very reasonable request, in context, and maybe consider why I noted it in the first place.
koshki
Grosse Pointe Shores, MI
(Zone 6a)

May 20, 2012
4:19 PM

Post #9130950

Apology accepted.

Michael, I had another thought about those leaves. Like yours, my damage was limited to the lower leaves. It occured to me that the leaves that were affected had all emerged indoors, under my lights. So they probably aren't as tough as the ones that grew outdoors, even though I took pains to harden them off. Like I mentioned above, it has happened to me in years past, and only seemed to affect the lowest leaves. Once the plant got going outside it didn't happen again.

I also was not aware that those protective covers could cause sunburn! Good to know!
1lisac
Liberty Hill, TX
(Zone 8a)

May 20, 2012
4:39 PM

Post #9130971

I agree hijacking the thread is rude unless the original question has been answered. I try to avoid that or politely say back to topic.

Im not offended just never seen a post started like that..Please remember that if you start a thread AND it goes off topic you have every right to remind others to stick to the topic.

What kind of tomato plants are they?
michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 20, 2012
4:58 PM

Post #9131003

thanks for your post 1lisac... actually a thread notation is not such an unusual thing in some forums. Your advice about waiting for a thread to be hijacked before speaking up is appreciated but in truth some people get just as offended (maybe even more so) even when the re-directing is polite (just as my preface was polite). As for my tomato varieties... try to stay on topic, will you? This thread is now about hijacking topics and online community etiquette! ;)
Carolyn
Salem, NY
(Zone 4b)

May 20, 2012
5:26 PM

Post #9131041

Yes, I'm the Carolyn you refer to who has answered lots of questions here.

It's no different than asking a human patient to answer questions in terms of getting to a diagnosis, b'c if you don't ask the right questions, or the patient doesn't share or remember all upon first stating the symptoms, then it makes it very hard to come up with a diagnosis.

When I was teaching med students I loved to go to what's called Grand Rounds, this one being infectious diseases, and the MD interviewing the patent would get answers and someone else would write them on a blackboard in the front of the auditorium.

I always wanted to make the correct Dx ASAP but was often stymied b'c the patent didnt remember to tell all, or the intervier didn't ask the right questions.

And so it is here as well.

Carolyn, and now to bed early since they had to postpone the mens' final from Rome b'c of rain so I have to be up by 6 AM tomorrow to watch it live. Ja, tennis is yet another obsession with me. LOL
michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 21, 2012
12:23 AM

Post #9131404

Carolyn, I appreciate your analogy (and all your help in the past!) but I'd say the analogy is, while useful, not really quite the same thing. What I asked for was the equivalent of saying, "Please only respond if you are a doctor, nurse or other medical professional experienced in this area of practice." And I requested this because on previous Grand Rounds I had someone from Volunteer Services, the nurse station stenographer and the patient's roommate tossing out their opinions too, which was both distracting and time consuming. In fact on several occasions, in spite of the seriousness of the patient's condition, someone from Housekeeping brought up ingrown toenails, and we never did get around to finishing diagnosing the patent's liver condition.

I'm teasing you but this exactly the problem I wanted to avoid when I first posted and why the analogy doesn't hold up. If you could go back and read how many of my posts ended up being trashed by people who start talking about chicken farming in Texas, you might better understand why I wanted to preface my post as I did.

BTW: Having worked at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, I'm very familiar with Grand Rounds. In fact and as you may know, Mayo is where that practice first began in ernest.

This message was edited May 21, 2012 2:24 AM
Carolyn
Salem, NY
(Zone 4b)

May 21, 2012
7:21 AM

Post #9131701

I do stand by my analogy in terms of data presented to others and questions asked by others, but I think it's time to move on now.

Carolyn

michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 21, 2012
10:00 AM

Post #9131976

Interesting... I think the topic of who owns a thread, how it gets hi-jacked to another topic, how people reinvent it... I find all of that kind of fascinating and certainly appropriate in an online community discussion. You "stand by" your analogy but ignoring my concerns about the difficulty of posting in "community," or the humor in my response. That's kind of disappointing. You're making an analogy to highly trained professions - not the same thing. As for closing the thread, that's my decision as its originator as it is not in any way attacking or inappropriate.
ERNIECOPP
Vista, CA

May 21, 2012
1:04 PM

Post #9132184

Mike,
For some one that is asking for free advice, you are certainly expecting only Free Professional Advice. If you really demand that, i am sure you can hire a consultant that will meet your standards.

Ernie
JoParrott
Richland, WA
(Zone 7b)

May 21, 2012
2:11 PM

Post #9132297

I am "unwatching" this thread- there is getting to be too much hostility for me-
Carolyn
Salem, NY
(Zone 4b)

May 21, 2012
3:33 PM

Post #9132409

You're making an analogy to highly trained professions - not the same thing. As for closing the thread, that's my decision as its originator as it is not in any way attacking or inappropriate.

******

Mike, my analogy is simply a different scenario, it has to do with people asking questions and people giving answers. Nothing more and nothing less.

I don't know why you are referring to closing the thread for I haven't seen anyone suggest that.

When I said let's move on I was referring to getting back to the topic at hand having to do with your picture and possible diagnoses.

At this point are you somewhat satisfied that those who have responded to your tomato problem have been helpful, and do you have any other questions about it that still remain?

Carolyn

michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 21, 2012
10:57 PM

Post #9132978

No hostility... just disagreement, essentially started by a few people who chose to disagree with a simple request. What's interesting to me about the dynamics of these online communities is how some people will reconstruct an issue and embellish it with their own interpretations, even though an exact record of what was said is right there to read. Who asked for expert advice? I asked people who were not experienced tomato gardeners not to guess. And from this tiny acorn grows...
Doug9345
Durhamville, NY
(Zone 5b)

May 22, 2012
5:45 AM

Post #9133156

Michaelangelo, I'm sorry that you find the style of posting here so disagreeable.

The style of posting on Dave's Garden is that a thread is generally conversational. In most cases once a question has been answered or an attempt at answering has been made, the thread wanders off in a different direction or directions. Dave's Garden is no different than any other group of people doing anything. As an example if I'm working on a car how much of the conversation do you think is about the problem and how much do you think is about other things related and unrelated. I'd bet over any stretch of time it's less than a quarter.

Back to the question that Carolyn just asked.

Did you get your problem with your tomatoes solved? It appears to me that they out grew the problem.
1lisac
Liberty Hill, TX
(Zone 8a)

May 22, 2012
1:44 PM

Post #9133832

I think part of the issue is that your first post was very clear on what YOU wanted, but you didn't give all the relevant information. How long they had been potted, using a plastic wind block which magnifies the sun and posting pictures that were not clear. I realize that the wind didn't help but that didn't make the pictures any clearer.

Anyway, I'm interested in growing tomatoes so this thread is no longer interesting to me, and the way the conversation is going makes me uncomfortable. I have been posting here a long time and I don't see any reason to dissect on line communities. I've never seen a thread go this way. I don't see anybody disagreeing with you only pointing out how the question could have been ask and a little more info in the initial post would have been helpful. All we want to know is did your question get answered, you ask from the beginning for us to stay on topic..
michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 22, 2012
2:22 PM

Post #9133896

Hello Doug, no need to apologize as your interpretation of the list's "style," while it may be shared by others, is yours-- not mine, and as before, your interpretation of what I find agreeable or disagreeable is also yours- most definitely not mine. I appreciate your input but I'd also like to suggest you at least consider what I have tried to share here with this experience: (1) don't reinvent what people have stated in their posts (it's in in writing!), (2) be careful not to inadvertently hi-jack people's topical threads, (3) Understand that when someone posts something in a "style" that you find disagreeable, simply unwatch the thread. I should think that as long as the post is within the bounds of common decency, it is not your place (nor mine) to dictate to others what their style must be.

Carolyn: Thanks for asking about my tomatoes but that topic got hi-jacked long ago as it migrated into one about what I may and may not request in a post. I did find good, fast advice from a few people who had some "experience" with tomato disorders and were "pretty sure" of their suggestions. No fuss, no muss, no disease.

As a student of online learning design & construction (which encompasses online community behavior) I really do find this experience fascinating. But of course I no longer feel "welcome" here because of this. All I can say is everything I wrote is still here and clearly stated for anyone to go back and reread, and perhaps rethink. There is absolutely nothing nothing in my first two posts about tomato disorders that is in any way rude or condescending. All that followed was the result of a couple of people choosing to be offended and a few others jumping in to get their licks in. People, you really should go back to square one and think about it.
Carolyn
Salem, NY
(Zone 4b)

May 22, 2012
2:51 PM

Post #9133930

All I want to say at this point is that I'll be 73 next month and have been posting online at message sites since about 1982 and have participated since then at maybe 20 of them and have been a Moderator at at least 5 of them.

So from PRACTICAL experience alone I think I do know a thing or two about netiquette at message sites, and I'm not comfortable at all when someone excludes some folks from answering unless they are "pretty" sure of their diagnoses or other tomato suggestions. You'd be surprised, I think, to find that sometimes a person who no one seems to know at all and hasn't had the most experience compared with many others, comes up with some darn good answers.

I fully admit that I pay no attention to my DG mail, its' an organizational thing, but do at the other places where I currently participate and if someone sends me a message and asks my opinion about this or that I gently suggest that they post the same question at the message site proper.

And that's b'c I feel strongly that all questions and all answers should be public so that ANYONE who wants to take a stab at them has the opportunity to post.

This is my last post in this thread.

Carolyn, who , ending on a positive note, suggests that if anyone wants to send her some dark bittersweet chocolate for her Birthday, that would be fine , but admittenly shipping chocolate in warm weather isn't the best which is why she buys ahead so she doesn't have to pay the special shipping charges for those frozen baggies they put in the box. She isn't cheap, she's just frugal. LOL
michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 22, 2012
6:18 PM

Post #9134242

Again, read what I have written from start to finish and read with an open mind. The only ones imposing themselves are those who, for some strange reason, can't deal with someone including a kindly note stating who he's like to hear from. If one doesn't like reading the content and opinions in a thread, if they make one feel uncomfortable, then absolutely... don't read it. But if you're going to jump in with objections then be prepared to encounter disagreement, particularly from the person who posted in the first place. Only a couple dozen posts here and over 250 views so maybe a lot of folks did just that... moved along.

kevcarr59

kevcarr59
BUda, TX
(Zone 8b)

May 24, 2012
2:00 AM

Post #9136178

Curiosity drew me to this thread, primarily because of its author, and the initial tone of the post. A train wreck in the making, my first thought, and I wasn't disappointed. The first thing that stands out is the out of focus pictures, both of them. It's difficult to really tell what is wrong with the first leaf. The pine needles look fine. In the second photo, those leaves at the base of the stem look fine, as does your container media. I guess you finally solved that problem, and I'd like to know how you did it.

You ask for "professional, qualified" diagnosis, but give little information. This sounds a little reminiscent of some discussions we had several weeks ago about your container mix and not finding bark mulch fines. Tapla, Al, had his excellent dissertation on the how's & why's of his container medium formulas, and on my research of the first sticky, you were asking the same questions back in 2007. I can understand losing an ingredient and having to find a replacement, but it happens to all of us and you have to learn how to adapt. By no means do I consider myself an expert, I'm far from it, but I will consider any & all input if I ask a question in this or any forum. I think Doug and Lisa are both right in that here it's a conversational dialogue when questions & answers go back and forth.

Thread hijacking happens all over the place and I don't think the moderators would have time to delete every post that was off topic. Nothing would be accomplished with the forums because no info would ever get traded.

Since you've already gone to 3 nurseries and had 3 different "qualified opinions", I guess you need to go and get a few more. With my reply being the 26th in this thread, only 3 actually pertain to your leaf malady. This post was perfect for hijacking from the very start. BTW, not real sure what's wrong with your tomato, but it looks like some spots that just showed up on mine, but I'm not positive what it is, so I'm not going to comment...

LouC
Desoto, TX
(Zone 8a)

May 24, 2012
7:12 AM

Post #9136388

This thread is a very good example of why I seldom check DG any longer. Attitudes have gotten really nasty.
michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 24, 2012
10:41 AM

Post #9136672

kevcar... you can stop reading when you come across something that bothers you or that is not worth your time.
koshki
Grosse Pointe Shores, MI
(Zone 6a)

May 24, 2012
11:12 AM

Post #9136702

Seriously, folks. I think there's been enough piling on.

While Michael's style may be...well, inelegant...I don't think he is being mean-spirited.

Let it rest, already.
michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 24, 2012
2:02 PM

Post #9136928

Thank you koshki as "mean-spirited" is the last thing I intend and "inelegant," while not exactly accurate, is a very tactful choice. I don't sit in judgment of people who use 'cause or ain't, or gonna or whatever but that doesn't mean I have to alter my style (I do write professionally) or my sense of humor to please those who chose to view it as condescending. I appreciate you suggestion that we let it rest but actually I think it's an interesting discussion, appropriate because my initial thread WAS hijacked into being about community tolerance and netiquitte. I continue to be amazed how such a simple request as the one in my original post could bother anyone... particularly because it was so politely and clearly stated. So not, mean-spirited is not me, but I will stand by my right to include this request in future gardening questions and will certainly understand why those who chose to be offended by it the first time will ignore my questions in the future. I certainly would. Again, thanks for recognizing my intentions are not to be mean-spirited but to ask people who continue to return to this thread to go back and reread what I initially wrote with an open mind. That's reasonable, and everyone has the option to unwatch this thread. In fact, they don't even have to add their two cents before bailing out.

kittriana

kittriana
Magnolia, TX
(Zone 8b)

May 24, 2012
7:20 PM

Post #9137379

So you go out of your way to bait them? Chuckl, writing professionally doesn't leave you out of the tendency to play with words, hope your maters are well, and your worrying for naught.
michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 25, 2012
12:48 AM

Post #9137657

Kittriana... thanks for the well wishes. I'm not sure bait is exactly fair... again, if one reads my first post with an open mind there's nothing there that baits or in any way attempts to offend. Some people volunteer to be offended. What's the old expression, "You can't swing a dead cat around here without hitting someone." (Oh gee, now I'm going to hear it from the cat lovers.)

kittriana

kittriana
Magnolia, TX
(Zone 8b)

May 25, 2012
8:11 AM

Post #9137957

Yup, that's the saying, quit fretting, what's nex to un problem on the list?
michaelangelo
Brainerd, MN

May 25, 2012
10:47 AM

Post #9138164

No fretting here. I just keep the thread going because online community behavior is of interest to me and there's always the chance someone will want to post more.

kevcarr59

kevcarr59
BUda, TX
(Zone 8b)

May 25, 2012
2:24 PM

Post #9138473

Still curious how you solved your soil dilemma...

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