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Tomatoes: What "strain" of Brandywine is Gleckler's offering?

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LooneyLinda
Mantua, UT
(Zone 4b)

May 24, 2012
10:34 PM

Post #9137601

I noticed that Glecker's was offering a strain of Brandywine that they offered in 1993 because so many people had requested it. Of course, I had to order it. Had to know what all the fuss was about.

Does anyone know what it is? Surely Carolyn knows.
Carolyn
Salem, NY
(Zone 4b)

May 24, 2012
11:57 PM

Post #9137639

No, I don't know.

If Adam doesn't indicate what strain, which is true at most places listing Brandywine, then perhaps he doesn't know either, but you can always e-mail him off the website and ask.

Back in 1993 there was no particular interest in different strains of Brandywine, many weren't even known at that time, so even with SSE listings there weren't many different strains. I know several folks, more recently, who have grown out many of the so called strains and see little to no difference between them. And that goes for the various Mortgage Lifter strains as well.

All I know is that I was Prez of the anti-Brandywine club of the US until Craig LeHoullier, my best tomato friend, sent me the Sudduth/Quisenberry one and I was a convert.

I just looked at my 1993 SSE YEarbook and under the heading of Brandywine there's a huge long list of folks listing it and the only strain mentioned was the Sudduth one. I'm assuming that the ones not mentioning a strain grew the Radiator Charlie one, which was also available at the time. Or had no idea what strain they were growing, I know I had no idea there were even many strains of Brandywine until much later when they just appeared and were named for the person who first listed it, which doesn't make it a strain in my eyes, not at all.

Linda, if it's really important for you to know the strain, please do e-mail Adam off the website but somehow I don't think he knows, I could be wrong, and of course at that time his father owned the business and he's still there to give advice and actual help to Adam, so Adam can ask him as well.

Lastly, there are trwo different ways to look at a strain . One, and the one I agree with, is the same variety that has observable slight differences from what might be called the original but can still be IDed as the variety. Two examples. Yellow Brandywine ( Platfoot) which I was responsible for and Mortgage Lifter ( Estler),

The other way, which I disagree with, is someone attaching a personal name to the Brradywine they grew and it probably is the Radiator Charlie one or the Suddth one.

The one that I love is the Pawer strain, for the following reason, b'c it's an entry typo error that's existed forever. Roger Wentling of PA listed the Brandywine he grew, and his SSE code would be PA WE R, so there was a goof and it got called the Pawer strain. LOL

And then of course there's more recently Liam's Brandywine, which isn't even a true Brandywine. He was helping Craig L grow out selections from the accidental cross between Brandywine and Tad that occurred in Craig's garden, got an all pink one, and well, there you go. It's that accidental cross that led to Little Lucky, Lucky Cross, both gold/red bicolors, and many more interesting selections.

Carolyn
LooneyLinda
Mantua, UT
(Zone 4b)

May 28, 2012
4:12 PM

Post #9142288

Oh my! Well, I am growing both Cowlick"s "strain" and the Glecker's "whatever the heck strain" this year. I'll let you know what I think--but you know things don't always taste the same from year to year. It's so annoying.

What would you call it when a RL changes to a PL and tastes better and produces more?
Carolyn
Salem, NY
(Zone 4b)

May 28, 2012
6:38 PM

Post #9142453

Linda, no doubt you're asking about your Akers one, I think that's it.

At one time I thought that all it took was a single spontaneous mutation to change an RL to a PL. but after exchanging opinions with Keith Muelller about it he pointed out to me that there are other ways of going from an RL to a PL, and mentioned looping out of DNA as well as DNA repeats, as well as DNA inversions and I knew of those types of mutations from my work with viruses and bacteria but never thought of them in terms of tomatoes.

And the mechanisms I just mentioned can involve MORE than one gene, so I no longer equate a PL version of a variety with the original RL one, with few exceptions.

We've got Cherokee Purple, RL and Cherokee purple Potato Leaf and Spudakee, all PL versions of the original. And some folks have grown ALL of those in the same season and don't agree that all is the same as the RL Cherokee Purple.

I was sent seeds of Indian Stripe PL, the original is RL, and when I grew it last summer I could see no difference. I distributed a LOT of seeds for the PL version in my annual seed offer at Tville so we shall see what others think.

So as I said above, I no longer ASAP equate a PL version of an original RL version until I and/or lots of others have compared the two in the same season.So that/s what I think. ( smile)

I have seeds for Cowlicks and have for a couple of years but haven't been motivated to grow it. But expect to be growing Croation Brandywine this summer, and that one is kind of an interesting situation, I don't accept the background given for it as originating in Croatia we shall see about that one, which, when Ray got it at a plant sale in CA was RL, but folks are also finding some PL/s and some are growing both/

Carolyn
LooneyLinda
Mantua, UT
(Zone 4b)

May 29, 2012
6:02 AM

Post #9142894

Goodness, I wish I understood all you just said. (smile)
Sequee
Carmel, NY
(Zone 6b)

May 29, 2012
7:42 AM

Post #9143027

My head is spinning. I am pathetically proud that I have finally learned to tell the the difference between PL and RL...nuf said?
Carolyn
Salem, NY
(Zone 4b)

May 30, 2012
4:46 AM

Post #9144439

Linda, please tell me what you don't understand and I'll be glad to try and explain it in a different way, but the summary comment is that one cannot always equate a PL variant with the RL original b'c more than one gene can be affected in going from RL to PL, not just the leaf gene.

There's really no need for me to explain what DNA looping out and inversions and repeats are b'c the end conclusion is as I just stated,: more than one gene can be involved in going from an original RL to a PL version of it, not just a change in leaf form.

J, just noting that I don't know what it was like last night with the storms where you are but I got really scared b'c of my being in this walker and not having the mobility to get out of here, can't use my car, it's dead due to my not being able to use it. So many around here with no power, roads closed, houses on fire from lightning strikes, and more.

What was nice is that both the RN and aide who have been with me since February after that horrific fall due to a the low potassium level checked on me last night. Lisa called and Connie actually stopped by to check on me here at home; she had no power, I did. Both are with the COunty Public Health, and Connie discharged me yesterday. It's been four long months with this and that kind of complication following the fall, so fingers crossed all will be OK from here on out.

Carolyn
gardadore
Saylorsburg, PA
(Zone 6a)

May 30, 2012
7:42 AM

Post #9144633

Not to hijack the thread but since you were on the topic of potato leaf vs regular may I ask what it means if a potato leaf variety produces a regular leaf/ My KBX from Tatiana produced 3 PL and one RL! Is it common for the PL to "revert" back to the "original" RL? According to your gene explanation, Carolyn, if I understood it at all, that would not be as common...or?
Thanks for asking, Linda, about the Gleckler's strain. I was wondering about that myself but didn't order it since I have many other seeds to test here. But your answer would satisfy my curiosity!
LooneyLinda
Mantua, UT
(Zone 4b)

May 30, 2012
8:15 AM

Post #9144713

I took a Psychology-type class several years ago that talked about being "aware that you're unaware." I guess that's where I am . I appreciate that you did not explain the DNA looping. I am confused enough.

I just thought it was "different" because the leaves, production and taste were different. I don't understand how you decide something is a different "strain" . Who studies the DNA looping and leaf form and has the authority to say something is "really" different?

Gardaore, I did have one of my Aker's PL's revert back to an RL. The tomatoes were a little smaller and production a little less, but maybe the plant didn't get as much sun or whatever.
Sequee
Carmel, NY
(Zone 6b)

May 30, 2012
9:13 AM

Post #9144799

Yikes, Carolyn! I didn't realize it had gotten that bad up there. I heard all of the pre-reports and warnings, but never check back in with the Weather Channel. Once I hit the hay, all was forgotten.

My area was on the tail-end of the storm, so the 60 mph winds were very short-lived, as was the heavy rain. We did get a very good soaking, but it was spread out over several hours.

So glad you have such high-end care-givers. I'm sure it was a relief to have someone checking in on you.
1lisac
Liberty Hill, TX
(Zone 8a)

May 30, 2012
11:51 AM

Post #9144994

Linda-Im going to try to explain what Carolyn said. First there is a lot of research done on plants at a microscopic level. This is shown in how different diseases effect different plants(just one example). At one time it was thought that the difference between RL and PL was a single gene that effected just the leaves. They are now finding out that there is more to it then that, and some of those genetic differences are much more complicated and effect more then just the leaves. So its not as simple as we once believed. Cornell and A&M are just a couple of places that study this. They have whole depts dedicated to just this.

I got this off the wiki site regarding "Strains" as it applies to biology (plants)
The collective descendants of a common ancestor; a race, stock, line, or breed. 2. Any of the various lines of ancestry united in an individual or a family; ancestry or lineage. 3. Biology. A group of organisms of the same species, having distinctive characteristics but not usually considered a separate breed or variety: a superior strain of wheat; a smooth strain of bacteria. 4. An artificial variety of a domestic animal or cultivated plant. 5. A kind or sort: imaginings of a morbid strain. 6.a. An inborn or inherited tendency or characteristic

This can be accomplished various ways, a couple are spontaneous mutations or by geographic isolation. There are many different types of Brandywines (Im also growing Cowlick) They are not different enough to be considered different tomatoes but they are different both visually (phenotype) and genetically (genotype) to be considered different strains. If one type is grown out repeatedly for many generations it will likely become its own Variety.

What Carolyn described is how this is done on the genetic level. Plants have always been one of the main ways we have study genetics ie. Wendell with his peas. But just recently as science has taken such huge steps forward have we been able to find out how this stuff really works. LOL


Carolyn
Salem, NY
(Zone 4b)

May 30, 2012
2:22 PM

Post #9145167

The understanding of what a strain is as it applies tomatoes, is rather different from what Lisa posted above from a website.

And I'll come back later to describe the TWO ways in which strains have been suggested to occur, one of them is ridiculous but occurs with several varieties but the other one I think has merit.

And when I come back I'll also take you back to your first biology class when you learned about Mendelian genetics b'c I really have to do that in order to answer the questions some of you have asked about RL to PL and PL to RL.

But it's been a busy day here, my car had to be taken by car ambulance to the garage, better than than me in the human abulance after the bad fall in Feb but have insurance for the latter but NOT the former, several long distance phone calls, still trying to reach the person who does my grocery shopping for me, following the radar to see if we're going to get hit again, so far today just one 5 min downpour, but possibilities still abound.

Now please remember that you're asking me these questions and in order to answer you I really do have to do some genetics, so don't get mad at me, just try to understand, pretty please.

Carolyn
LooneyLinda
Mantua, UT
(Zone 4b)

May 31, 2012
7:07 PM

Post #9146980

EEK! EEK! I think I 'll just remain unaware. The only genetics I really want to know is that you don't marry your cousins!!

Sorry I started this--unless, of course you are enjoying this. If both of you want to try to teach me I'll read it. Realize that I might just politely nod and smile.
1lisac
Liberty Hill, TX
(Zone 8a)

May 31, 2012
7:43 PM

Post #9147030

On that note I just read in Glenn Down's catalog the Indian Stripes is a "strain" of Cherkee Purple. ?
Ozark
Ozark, MO
(Zone 6a)

May 31, 2012
8:43 PM

Post #9147094

"Wendell with his peas."
------------------------

Lisa, that made my day right there. hehe

Carolyn, don't apologize for going into tomato genetics. That's exactly what I'm interested in and I'd like to learn more. Sorry your car died.
1lisac
Liberty Hill, TX
(Zone 8a)

May 31, 2012
9:57 PM

Post #9147142

Ozark, how could wrinkled or smooth peas make your day? (cough) just wondering?
Ozark
Ozark, MO
(Zone 6a)

May 31, 2012
10:22 PM

Post #9147152

Mendel was the Austrian genetics guy.

Wendell was the guy my ex-girlfriend took up with in 11th grade. Sorry, I got tickled. :
1lisac
Liberty Hill, TX
(Zone 8a)

May 31, 2012
10:47 PM

Post #9147159

This stupid iPad it self corrects. Sh*t I'm tired of proof reading everything I write. Thank you! I should edit it but then none of these posts would make sense. Maybe in the morning...I just wrote an email and I had to keep stopping it from changing one word, but the x I have touch to make it not correct is really small (my fingers are not) so it just started other issues.

Sorry to bring up old,sad memories. But I'm glad I made you laugh. Got to think of a way to edit it so these other posts make sense. I tried putting Mendel in again and it took 3 tries but this time I was paying attention.

I really hope Carolyn continues her lesson on tomato genetics. I tried to find a link or quote that would be the easiest to understand. I looked under pepper strains, I'm interested to see how they are different from tomatoes, different pepper strains are sometimes named after the place they originate from even tho each one is virtually identical. I know with dogs there are different breeds that have separate strains that come from different places. So I'm wondering about tomatoes, and Wendell? Hehe
Carolyn
Salem, NY
(Zone 4b)

June 1, 2012
5:08 AM

Post #9147292

I just have not had the time to continue with the RL/ PL story and genes, but when I do, I sure will.

Carolyn
quercuswv
Teays Valley, WV

June 26, 2012
4:24 PM

Post #9182484

The 'Brandywine' seed I purchased from Gleckler this year emerged PL-shaped, albeit with RL-type texture (pic.1), but have matured into a more serrate type resembling RL. Could this be variablity within PL leaf form, or simply just crossed seed?

Thumbnail by quercuswv   Thumbnail by quercuswv
Click an image for an enlarged view.

LooneyLinda
Mantua, UT
(Zone 4b)

September 9, 2012
11:19 PM

Post #9270427

I don't know much about strains except that thinking about it is a strain! BUT I do know what has happened in my garden this year.

I planted Cowlick's Brandywine and whatever Gleckler's has. By far, the Cowlick's has more tomatoes! I planted about 12 Cowlick's and 4 Gleckler's. Because of that I think I can safely say that Cowlick's produces more. BUT as all of us know what it true one year is not true the next.

The Cowlick's has fantabulous taste and will remain my favorite--until I find another favorite.
gardadore
Saylorsburg, PA
(Zone 6a)

September 10, 2012
11:34 AM

Post #9270951

This is my third year trying the Cowlick's. The other two years I got poor results with the tomatoes ripening too late to get a nice crop. The couple I got always tasted fantastic, though. This year I got a bonanza. They have been producing and ripening steadily. They are indeed a winner and I will plant them again next year realizing the results may not be the same.
LooneyLinda
Mantua, UT
(Zone 4b)

September 10, 2012
6:01 PM

Post #9271359

It is annoying how a tomato can do well one year and not the next or vice versa. Also, have you ever had two tomatoes on the same plant who appear to have the same ripness that do not taste alike?

Last year my trustworthy Aker's West Virginia was wonderful. This year they taste fantastic, but they are smaller than a tennis ball. What's up with that?

newyorkrita

newyorkrita
North Shore of L. I., NY
(Zone 6b)

September 11, 2012
1:55 PM

Post #9272165

I bought seeds of Cowlick's Brandywine from Blue Ribbon Tomatoes on E-bay not long ago. So I will be growing it for the first time next year. I can't wait to try it!

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