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Brugmansias: History lesson from Kyle's archives

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Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

October 3, 2002
9:56 PM

Post #376034

The fabled question...where did these hybrids/plants originate...here goes will take a while to get all the data out.I found all of my research papers from way back.After contacting many different people involved with plant introductions on the west coast,heres the SCOOP!Make sure you all take this data down for your breeding records.

DR.SUESS= is a natural hybrid collected in Pasto Columbia at around 10,000ft elevation by Hetty Krauss of Calif.The cultivar was then (mid 70's) called "Hetty Krauss" after the collector.The cultivar does poorly(less flowers) in high heat.Likes cool evenings and warm days for best performance.It was distributed in the late 70's by Steve brigham of Encinitas calif.It was named 'Dr Suess' by a friend of mine from San Diego in the 80's. So "Hetty Krauss" is actually the original name and considered the Legal name.Dale Kolaczkowski..now works at Walter Anderson Nursery in San Diego, decided with a co-worker to name the plant in honor of the real Dr. Suess the writer of childrens books from La Jolla calif.
"Charles Grimaldi"hybrid=

Steve Brigham and his co-worker Bartley Schwartz decided since Dr. Suess didn't do well in high heat areas, that they would cross it with Insignis "Frosty Pink"( more on the history of FP later on)
Bartley chose a seedling that had more heat tolerance and larger flowers and named it :"Charles Grimaldi" after a deceased friend of his.the former Charles Grimaldi was a talented Landscape designer from the Bay area of Northern calif.

Insignis "Frosty Pink"= is a hybrid cross of Suaveolens white (natural cultivar) by Versicolor pink (natural cultivar) it was named by Steve brigham of Encinitas..but was not his hybrid...he doesn't remember who's it was originally.

Jean Pasko NOTICE THE CORRECT SPELLING with a "K" not a "C"
This plant was collected in the early 80's by a person of the same name in southern Calif.Collected in Columbia...possibly a natural hybrid...was the only plant like it in the area.Tommie Lockwood also noticed and collected many "one of a kind" cultivars in columbia also noted they might be accidental crosses done by insects.

Suaveolens Hybrid "Betty Marshall"= the true origin of this plant will never be known as the woman it was named after died in England some years ago.She was a collector of extremely rare plants at the time she was President of the Southern calif Horticultural society.the plant is no doubt a chance seedling of suaveolens, which is self fertile in the wild state.True suaveolens from the wild can produce seeds if self pollinated and come true to form from seed as Arborea does.The plant was given to Betty as a gift from an unknown collector.It is an improved suaveolens clone.More flowers and better seed setting abilities.

other questions can be emailed to me if you have them concerning these plants.
I had almost forgotten all the data I collected in my pursuit of accurate records of these plants.
WHEW!!!!!long post... :-)

poppysue
Westbrook, ME
(Zone 5a)


October 3, 2002
10:02 PM

Post #376036

Thanks for sharing the info Kyle. It's good to for us to have someone like you to teach us this valuable information. That's interesting about the wild suaveolens being self fertile. Do you know if Betty Marshall is self fertile too?
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

October 3, 2002
10:09 PM

Post #376043

Not sure about Betty Marshall being self fertile I no longer have it in my collection.Wild suaveolens grow wild in eastern Brazil in a small area...thosands of miles from all other wild brug populations.Sanquinea is self fertile in the wild too.
tiG
Newnan, GA
(Zone 8a)

October 3, 2002
10:12 PM

Post #376045

this is fascinating stuff Kyle, thanks tons!!
Abutilon
Coal Center, PA
(Zone 6a)

October 3, 2002
10:12 PM

Post #376047

You get a hug!
This is the kind of info I've been wanting to learn.
I have printed and will be studying this tonight. lol
Thanks, Kyle (o:
irish
Saint Petersburg, FL
(Zone 9b)

October 3, 2002
10:14 PM

Post #376050

great info thanks for sharing
monika
Herbstein
Germany
(Zone 5a)

October 3, 2002
10:33 PM

Post #376063

A big ((HUGHS))(do you accept a shy kiss too?) (old lady is blushing!!!) from me?

Thats very very interesting and explains, why CG is so heavy in suaveol. genes. Your information will improve my records and hybridizing plans as well. Thank you so much again, Kyle!
WaterlooLily
Grass Lake, MI
(Zone 5a)

October 3, 2002
10:48 PM

Post #376081

Thanks Kyle for sharing this information. Your the best!
Brugmansia
FSH, TX

October 3, 2002
11:22 PM

Post #376110

Frosty pink is an unknown suaveolens white x unknown versicolor pink x suaveolens white? Charles Grimaldi is Dr.Sues x Frosty pink? Unknown in this case stands for wild unnamed species I take it. Wish I had of known this earlier before I made so many Dr.Sues x Frosty pink crosses and Frosty pink x Dr.Sues crosses. There has to be tons of those seedling crosses floating around out there now. Just more to add to the confusion.
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

October 3, 2002
11:46 PM

Post #376121

Frosty pink is Versicolor pink (not EP) crossed by a white suaveolens.
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

October 4, 2002
12:02 AM

Post #376137

Tonny...found both names used in the past in nurseries in Calif.So I guess it can have a compound label IE... Dr. Suess/ Hetty Krauss.

Both individuals are now deceased.
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

October 4, 2002
12:13 AM

Post #376144

From Columbia comes the most dominant genes, these wild forms whether natural hybrids(insect crossed) or pure previously unknown forms produce the most wanted hybrids.
From Rothkirch,ocre,Jean Pasko,Hetty Krauss/Dr suess,esmeraldas,and others...these are the most dominant parents for crosses.
Ludger
Brugvalley
Germany
(Zone 7b)

October 4, 2002
12:14 AM

Post #376146

Hi Kyle,

very much thanks for this real good informations!!!

Greetings Ludger
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

October 4, 2002
12:18 AM

Post #376148

Your are all most welcome...gee I'd just about forgotten about all the detailed info I had collected and all the people searching I did a few years back..ran across all my data sheets last night and knew you all could use the data.Like the old Chinese proverb goes..."jin qwa liao fun shu" :-)
Ludger
Brugvalley
Germany
(Zone 7b)

October 4, 2002
12:27 AM

Post #376152

Kyle, do you have such a selffertile suavolens?
Or is this a watching from "wild growing areas" ?
Greetings Ludger
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

October 4, 2002
12:47 AM

Post #376169

suaveolens in most collections are the result of many crosses in the past.I do have seeds from Brazil that were collected in the wild from pure wild clones.When these exist in singular colonies (only white suaveolens)and are seperated from all other species but themselves by a thousand miles of rainforest..it would be safe to assume that they are self fertile.How else would seeds be possible?And like arborea and sanquinea..suaveolens(pure wild form) come true to form from seeds.This pertains only to wild forms..not man made hybrids.

Kell

Kell
Northern California, CA
(Zone 9b)


October 4, 2002
1:03 AM

Post #376175

Eclipse, I just saw a Hetty Krauss for sale in a Berkeley nursery awhile back and did not know what it was... and it was not in flower.

thanks for sharing
Ludger
Brugvalley
Germany
(Zone 7b)

October 4, 2002
1:17 AM

Post #376185

Sorry,smile,

selffertile is to me: If you have one suavolens with flowers and you can pollinate at this suavolens flower to flower and will get seeds.

In a wild area with many different suavolens probably you will have different genetic brugs, this brugs can pollinate against each other.

Want to say: Two white suavolensseeds , growing to flower, and pollinate against to each. This is not selffertile.

You have two different plants with different genes.

I am excited ( mean it in the best way, smile).

Hope I may wonder...m waiting for replay.
Greetings Ludger
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

October 4, 2002
1:18 AM

Post #376187

Kell..the nursery where CG was born sometimes still sells it as "Hetty Krauss"... :-)
Calalily
Deep South Coastal, TX
(Zone 10a)

October 4, 2002
1:26 AM

Post #376193

Thanks Kyle, this is great. Eric, good to see you again.
Brugie
Chariton, IA
(Zone 5b)

October 4, 2002
2:06 AM

Post #376224

Thanks Kyle. It is always nice to know a little or more about what we are growing and crossing with. My printer is working today... :-)
gone2seed
Milton, FL
(Zone 8a)

October 4, 2002
2:18 AM

Post #376235

Thanks Kyle,Please post more of this as time permits.This will be a great help to all of us hybridizer wannabes.
snowhermit
Woodsville, NH
(Zone 4a)

October 4, 2002
2:50 AM

Post #376260

Kyle, Thanks so much for this valuable information. Just got done printing it out.

crestedchik

crestedchik
Cicero, NY
(Zone 5a)

October 4, 2002
2:56 AM

Post #376266

Thanks Kyle,you are the MAN!

And do you have more...

Kell

Kell
Northern California, CA
(Zone 9b)


October 4, 2002
3:21 AM

Post #376290

Which nursery Eclipse?
Ludger, you have such a gracious way of speaking.
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

October 4, 2002
3:38 AM

Post #376307

kell Buena Creek nursery in San Marcos.You have to remember too..I haven't been back to Calif for 5 years now..so things may have changed.
joydie1
Hamilton
Canada

October 4, 2002
12:41 PM

Post #376498

Kyle as always you are great! Thanks for posting the history on these varieties. This information is worth knowing as not to replicate the same crosses again. In addition, it helps to know what the potential colors which may emerge from a cross.
scooterbug
Tellico Plains, TN
(Zone 7b)

June 20, 2004
3:06 AM

Post #917022

*BUMP*
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

June 20, 2004
3:08 AM

Post #917026

LOL I felt that.. LOL
poppysue
Westbrook, ME
(Zone 5a)


June 20, 2004
3:20 AM

Post #917055

I've saved this thread to my favorites and refer to it often :o) Great info!
ahelms
Kannapolis, NC
(Zone 7b)

June 20, 2004
3:22 AM

Post #917064

Great info, Kyle.
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

June 20, 2004
3:25 AM

Post #917075

I did 4 years of research when I started with brugs..then no books were on the market...so I did some field work with nurseries,historians,and herbariums.I have a large library of data on brugs.Some are observations from as far back as 1700's.
poppysue
Westbrook, ME
(Zone 5a)


June 20, 2004
3:29 AM

Post #917089

Very interesting! Are there any old books you'd recommend? I love reading about the early plant explorers.
Shelly221
Denver, CO
(Zone 5b)

June 20, 2004
3:33 AM

Post #917093

Excellent info!
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

June 20, 2004
3:36 AM

Post #917098

Several books by the solanaceae researcher Richard Schultes.He Timothy Plowman and Tommie Lockwood were all friends. They all had a penchant for Brugs.All had collected plants in the wild. I have a few seedlings from 10 year old seeds collected by Timothy Plowman.I hope they bloom this year.I want to Honor Timothy with a named flower for his work. Hope these seedlings live up to being worthy..if not I'll name some future flower for him, Tommie Lockwood and Richard Schultes.Richard Schultes died a year or so ago..and Timothy Plowman died a few years back.Tommie Lockwood died in 1975 on a collecting trip in Mexico.
poppysue
Westbrook, ME
(Zone 5a)


June 20, 2004
3:40 AM

Post #917105

I think I have most of the Shultes books. He's my hero! Did you vere meet him? I just read a really great one this winter called "One River" by Wade Davis. He covers a lot of the Dr. Shultes travels through the rainforest, as well as his own explorations with Tomothy Plowman.

scooterbug
Tellico Plains, TN
(Zone 7b)

June 20, 2004
3:42 AM

Post #917110

ROFL ... What a coincidence Kyle . I bumped this up and there you were right next to it with a new post in the Forum =))
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

June 20, 2004
3:50 AM

Post #917118

Poppysue..I'll look for that one. I only wished that Tommie Lockwoods thesis had been openly published. It never was at his parents request.I did manage to get a copy purchased from Harvard where the thesis was submitted.Now you can't even get copies purchased anymore.His parents were so upset that people wanted to publish Tommies work.His other books on Solanaceae plants have been published. His thesis had all his observations on hybridization and his notes on breeding and re-classifying the genus Brugmansia. Tommie had went through all the specimens at the Missouri Botanical gardens herbarium years ago.He relisted and re-grouped the different cultivars.Some were from the mid 1800's.
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

June 20, 2004
3:52 AM

Post #917120

Scooterbug. I just noticed that!!LOL
poppysue
Westbrook, ME
(Zone 5a)


June 20, 2004
4:19 AM

Post #917159

Kyle, can you still get the botanical museum leaflets from Harvard?
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

June 20, 2004
2:36 PM

Post #917566

poppysue I have many of the museum leaflets...some were gotten in Chicago from The Library of the Field museum.
scooterbug
Tellico Plains, TN
(Zone 7b)

February 12, 2005
12:24 AM

Post #1284916

*bump* This is so worth your time to read.
DonnaB
Vancleave, MS
(Zone 8b)

February 12, 2005
3:29 AM

Post #1285082

thanks Scoot. Very good info
LindaSC
Columbia, SC
(Zone 8a)

February 13, 2005
8:54 PM

Post #1287189

So much good information there. Thanks Kyle for sharing with us.
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

February 14, 2005
2:24 AM

Post #1287674

:-)

Kell

Kell
Northern California, CA
(Zone 9b)


February 14, 2005
8:01 AM

Post #1287963

I was wondering where you were Kyle. Long time no see. I envisioned you on the beaches of Hawaii finally having a long and fantastic vacation! Hope all is more than well with you!
rebel_rouser
Memphis, TN

October 10, 2005
8:23 PM

Post #1808734

So much good information there
Moonglow
Corte Madera, CA

October 10, 2005
9:01 PM

Post #1808797

thanks for the info. good read.

=)
judycooksey
Pocahontas, TN
(Zone 7b)

June 14, 2006
1:13 PM

Post #2389078

History Lesson Bump

Judy
judycooksey
Pocahontas, TN
(Zone 7b)

October 17, 2006
7:46 PM

Post #2825934

Great Info that I'm bumping one more time

Judy
bjf826
panhandle, FL
(Zone 8b)

October 17, 2006
7:51 PM

Post #2825950

WOW! Great info. Thanks for bumping this, Judy. I'm going to print it to put in my notebook.

Barb

woodspirit1

woodspirit1
Lake Toxaway, NC
(Zone 7a)

October 17, 2006
8:55 PM

Post #2826179

Kyle, can you grow brugs in Iowa as well as you did in California?
stownes
Mansfield, TX
(Zone 8a)

October 17, 2006
9:04 PM

Post #2826203

Thanks for bumping, Judy. Great info!
diamond123
Toledo, OH
(Zone 5b)

October 18, 2006
10:58 AM

Post #2827925

Thanks Judy! great Info
Dan
ZZsBabiez
Lodi, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 7, 2006
8:08 PM

Post #2891759

Thank you Kyle for sharing this information. Great reading!
tonyjr
Union City, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 8, 2006
2:50 PM

Post #2894124

Thanks for "bumping " . great info
judycooksey
Pocahontas, TN
(Zone 7b)

October 16, 2007
3:09 AM

Post #4087843

History deserves to be "BUMPED"
ZZsBabiez
Lodi, CA
(Zone 9b)

October 16, 2007
1:34 PM

Post #4088793

Thank you Judy! This is such a good one.

heavenscape

heavenscape
TabacVille, NC
(Zone 7a)

March 25, 2008
8:14 PM

Post #4708721

* bumped for newbies like me. Worth reading.
scooterbug
Tellico Plains, TN
(Zone 7b)

July 15, 2009
10:20 PM

Post #6824072

*bump*
UMD_Terp
Central, MD
(Zone 7a)

November 23, 2012
4:24 PM

Post #9340768

BUMP
GordonHawk
Brooklyn, NY
(Zone 7b)

November 25, 2012
7:51 PM

Post #9342542

Kyle...Sue...and all...
schultes was an amazing explorer... Davis who wrote the book about him and his work... narated this movie about it.. it's maybe an hour long... and deals mostly with the research they were doing.. nailing down information on the reported native use of many of the psychoactive plants ... the movie traces Schultes travels.. and is filmed showing him at work from the 20's- the 50's
although brugs aren't mentioned one is seen being inspected at the end of the show...I just odered three of Davis's books... I'd read a few of Schultes over the years...
warning this movie centers it's self on the development of different psychoactive researches.. and only just shows inspection of the brug ...withot mentioning it or anything abut it
an hour long interesting account of the plant discoveries by shulties.. shot by this guy Davis.. with a slew of books out about this and other discoveries
http://vimeo.com/33931362
Documentary about Schultes and psychedelics narrated by Wade Davis.
Shows a brug toward the end.
Eclipse
Norwalk, IA
(Zone 5b)

November 28, 2012
7:40 PM

Post #9345083

Thanks for the link Gordon!

Kyle :-)
scooterbug
Tellico Plains, TN
(Zone 7b)

November 28, 2012
8:14 PM

Post #9345099

This is a wonderful video. Thanks Gordon ♥

Gitagal

Gitagal
Baltimore, MD
(Zone 7a)

November 28, 2012
9:38 PM

Post #9345132

WOW Gordon! I just watched the WHOLE thing--it is an hour and a half long--but mesmerizing...

Never done drugs of any kind, but the information was quite interesting. Very well presented.

It is now about 3 hours past my usual bed time...Good night.
I will slide into La-la Land the natural way. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...Gita
GordonHawk
Brooklyn, NY
(Zone 7b)

November 29, 2012
7:42 PM

Post #9345856

well glad some liked it.. I thought it was great...
this link is to another early exployer of the amazon , equador and peru ...Fawcett... he was lost on his last trip to find " Z " suposedly.. the lost amazon gigantic city...
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/episodes/lost-in-the-amazon-watch-the-full-episode/829
ConnieMounts
Indiantown, FL

December 2, 2012
7:38 PM

Post #9348264

This is good info, I am very much into the old cultivars and I currently have been replacing the ones I lost. I have all of the varieties that Kyle mentioned in the first post. So reading this is exciting for me.
Thanks for bumping it up.

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