Arlene, I got 1 seed out of a pkg of Rosamond x L'Amour. The rest were empty. I don't think it's genetic. I think it's an insect that eats the little seed inside of the corky shell. I peeled them all and under the first layer I found a hole going into the center of the seeds. I want to add that I also had Rosamond x Butterfly with the same problem and also with the holes. One was bought seed and one was given seed from two different people. You can't see the holes from the outside. I checked them all with a magnifying glass.The hole is under the top layer of shell which makes no sense to me. I can't figure how the insect got out.
This message was edited Wednesday, Dec 4th 12:08 AM
I forgot and was just fixing to post, mine were the Rosamond x L'amour. Snow, how can we avoid that? wonder at what stage they might have gotten to them?? would love to protect mine if it's not too late.
I 'm no bug expert but it looked like they had to have gotten in before the corky shell was fully developed. There was no sign of a hole on the outside but it was very noticable after I peeled some of the cork off.
I have a package of the Rosamond x L'Amour seeds but I've been waiting on planting them. I hope they aren't all empty. What a shame!! I'm sure Cala's going to be really disappointed. There's a little weevil that eats hollyhock seeds too. The little wormy larvae bore into the seed coat and eat the embryo.
I wonder if refrigerating - or even freezing the seeds right after drying will kill the little critters before they do to much damage. Do you think it might be related to the little worms you had earlier that made the buds fall off? It might be part of the life cycle for what ever they were. I would think the little wormish-maggot thing would pupate into an aldult bug. It would help to figure out what the bug is so it can be controlled.
Arlene - if you have a lot of pods to play with maybe you could investigate a couple of immature pods and the seeds inside. If you cut open a few seeds you might be able to find the critter in action.
Such a shame. I'm sure everyone was looking forward to everyone getting their new crosses started.
well, no one can blame Susie, she was kind enough to share!!! this seems like something no one expected. Freezing them would kill the seeds, right or wrong? I'm sure hoping they didn't get in mine, but I did have those little worms.
The seed bank has been wondering how to handle this, without peeling them all. How do you know if you don't peel?
Monika!! we need you:)
Since I saw no outside hole with close inspection with a magnifying glass, I think the damage was done at the early stages of seed development.There was no way of telling by just looking at the seeds that they weren't fertile. Sure could use an insect expert here.
I'm no bug expert, but did want to jump in and say that my Rosamond and Whiskers pods all had this problem. Made me sick. I probably didn't have a tenth of the seeds with beans in them. Hope someone can tell us how to avoid this in the future.
Mine have only been planted for about 3 wks., but I dug into them and found no indication that any of the seeds were going to sprout. Put them back in the soil, so will wait and see.
Had three more pks. of 10, so I have those soaking in water now, and will plant them in a couple more days and put them in a sealed clear plastic used cake container on a furnace vent. Had good luck germinating brug seeds that way last winter, so it should work this winter too:)
Hope I can get at least one seed to germinate and grow for me. LOL
just did a check. my first PB seeds are a bust. glad i wrote down who i sent seeds to. the few that had beans look fat and a funny color.
the second pod which grew 2 inches from the 1st seems to have a lot more beans but they look funny too. guess i'll start peeling a few of each pod to see what the difference is.
I couldn't stand it. I pealed the Rosamond x L'amour seeds to see. Out of 10 seeds 7 were empty... I got three healthy little beans from them. I checked them out the best I could with my pocket microscope. It looked to me like the worm (or whatever it is) enters where the seeds are attached in the pod... the pointy ends, more or less. On one seed I could see the tunnel pretty clearly. I'm just guessing but it could be one worm that moves from seed to seed tunneling up the central vein of the pod, and into each seed. Then back out through the same hole, and into the next seed. I think if it did this while the seeds were developed but still immature the cork would continue to develop and cover over the entrance hole so we wouldn't be able to see it very well. The wrinkled surface makes it tough to see. What ever it is... it's teeny,weeny. Probably about the size of the fungus gnat maggots. I'd check out the pod itself too. Look for any holes in the skin of the pod, inside the pod for any webbing or cacoons, and at the base of it were the pundicle is attached. If you have a pundicle on it check that for holes too and the cross section of it to see if the worm might tunnel down the length of it into the pod.
I don't know how it could be controled if it's getting to the seeds before they're fully developed. Spraying the plant doesn't seem like it would work if the worm is inside the pod. The best hope it to find out what the little buggers turn into... a fly??, beetle??, weevil?? moth?? or what?
I also had some Versi.Orange x Insig.Gold seeds. Those ones were all untouched and had little beans. One was empty but it looked like the bean just shriveled. No problems with those ones.
well that Bayer stuff really worked immediately. I had mealy bug all over that huge sang of mine and I mean all over. Spray never would have gotten them all... too many leaves on top of leaves. They were gone in 2 days. Of course I used a whole bottle on it...LOL but it is huge. I just wish it also killed mites. The Bayer rose systemic just seems to contol them not kill them all.
Maybe we should email this thread to Bugguy with a pretty please to help us, Liz?
had to fix my spelling, I did not want you all to think I was a bad speller as well as a pot stirrer...LOL
This message was edited Wednesday, Dec 4th 12:58 PM
I think I've seen these tiny little worms before in Lupin pods! If I remember correctly they have white bodies, brown heads and make a little silk tunnel type home inside a seed pod. They make perfect little holes in seeds and eat the inside untill all that's left is the seed's shell!
All I can say is I've seen very tinny white looking wormish...did I say tinny lil buggers crawling around in empty seed coats after digging up some crosses before. I tend to try to use systemics to try to curb this. So far, it seems to work for me unless a seedpod is forming near the end of the systemics usefullness. I sure wish Monika would poke her head in her to give us some pointers.
All I can say is I've seen very tinny white looking wormish...did I say tinny lil buggers crawling around in empty seed coats after digging up some crosses before. I tend to try to use systemics to try to curb this. So far, it seems to work for me unless a seedpod is forming near the end of the systemics usefullness. I sure wish Monika would poke her head in here to give us some pointers.
I just peeled the Rosamond x L'Amour seeds I bought from Calla and 7 out of the 10 were empty. No way of telling they would be empty. Hopefully, everyone's surviving seeds will give some beauties. I know my 3 beans will get TLC.
I picked 4 more pods today, peeled about 10% and not one bad seed in the bunch, all had beans. I will send new packs of seeds to all that ordered. No need to email, I know who got them. These may not be dry when you get them, so plant immediately. Sorry that happened. I picked several other crosses today, no bad seeds, so hopefully it was just that first round of pods. I planted about 400 seeds, we'll see how they do.
We need to find out how to fight this little seed eater. This was a wonderful cross to be ruined by an insect. And it's happened to others also.We just have to figure out what to use and when to use it.
This is how I get rid of bugs in Hardy Hibiscus seeds...put the seeds in a ziplock bag...spray a fast squirt of Bengal or Raid into the bag and close up very quick... leave the bag close for a day or two... kills all those little bugs.
I have NOT tried this with Brug seeds.
An ounce of prevention is worth a lb of cure, but if I had some valuable seed that I thought might be contaminated...I think I might try the raid method or some such. Perhaps a very very diluted systemic soak for a few hours? You could always peel the coating off though and try to rinse the worm? off of course as well. I don't peel my seeds generally, but I think it would be worth it with a cross of this nature if it meant that it might reduce the chances of a bug eating the resulting embryo.
We're going out tonight and try to locate more systemic. I have several pods on Pink Beauty that I really want to make it all the way. full of good seeds! just hope that the worms didn't already do their damage. It's hard to find gardening products this time of year, may have to go all over.
as usual i am more confused. i think the raid should work on the seeds, i use raid flying on my brugs from time to time.
1. if the weevils are eating the seeds after picked, would then just continue eating them while in the soil, before the seed has a chance to germinate.
2. if they are eating after picked, maybe there is something to add when the seeds are soaked? you sure wouldn't want to wait to pick them.
3. are they being eaten before the seeds ripen? and if so would the raid sprayed with a bag wrapped around the seed pod for a while kill them? or perhaps a longer acting systemic?
Brugman i don't usually peel seeds either, once in a while just to see the bean, but i guess i will from now on.
I am dying to know if they eat them before or after they are picked.
Glory, the raid sounds great especially if the weevils eat the seeds after picked.
I can tell you that in my case the weevils appear to attack those seed pods I pick after they are overly ripe. Ie, seedpods that are allowed to dry on the tree tend to have more of a problem with these weevils from what I can tell. As for weather they are being eaten before they ripen...I have found cylindrical type holes bored into my seedpods before, but I have not caught the critter in action and it is not something that has reacurred for me. I sincerely think a very light dose of systemic soak for the seeds would most likely do the trick. The problem would be that a few seeds might not sprout with the wrong concentration or wrong type of systemic. I expect a few might be deformed as well or slower to germinate. Its an area to experiment with for sure. But one things for sure, if the bug is traveling from seed to seed then a dusting of some sort would at least keep the contaminated seeds from contaminating the lot. Of course keeping seeds in seperate batches might be in order as well. I try to keep seeds from seperate pods seperate for this reason as well as a few other obvious reasons...like what if a moth recrosses a pod I just made? If I have each pod labeled and I grow 5 pods from a cross and only 1 pod has a certain characteristic repeated over and over...well then I might think a moth came behind me. or perhaps a bee.
I borrowed my nieces microscope and looked at one of the seed shells. There is no outside hole.The hole starts under the corky shell which makes me think the worm is getting inside while it is still in the pod and the seed is not fully formed. This would make any spray or powder treatment to the mature seeds useless as the damage is already done on the inside. I'm scratching my head here trying to think of something that would treat the pods as they are developing so the insect can't burrow into the pod.
If a weak systemic were to soak into / rehydrate the seed it might kill the insect before it ate the actual plant embryo though and this might help it to develop into a full fledged seedling/germinate. Just a thought.
so a systemic used on the brugs while the seed pods are growing should help prevent weeveils?
and a dust or squirt of raid could kill the weevils if treated immediately after picking? or immediately after drying? ms brugnanny had a hair over half my seeds with beans in them. i pulled the rest out of the packet yesterday and almost all were empty, so maybe it is after they are picked. the few beans i found looked fat and funny.
sevin dust, now a little of that should work shouldn't it?
I'm not sure what to do about the pods that have already ripened ,but if the little bugger is getting in and starting to eat before the seeds are rippend then my thought is that you should give a good dose of the systemic at the same time as you pollinate,with maybe a booster shot at 2 months?
My thinking is that if the weevils are in the seeds eating away when we pick them, then we should see them. I think they have come and gone before picking and agree with CC's way of thinking. JMHO for what it's worth. :-)
Sunflowers weevils go thro a series of stages starting with the adult feeding on the flower. They eat the pollen and lay their eggs within the flower. When the eggs hatch they bore into the seeds and feed on the embryos of the seeds. I think the same stages apply to the hollyhock weevil. The adults begin by feeding on the foliage. Brug pods take such a long time to develop. It's hard to guess when they critter actually starts feeding. It could be at the first stages of pod development and living for several weeks inside the pod as it matures. I think a systemic is probably the way to go too but dusting the seeds after harvest might also be a good idea. Since Cala said her second batch of seeds were all good ... hopefully this critter only has a short season it's active.
I've noticed my sunflowers having empty seeds before, but have not had a problem with hollyhocks yet. Notice I said yet!! I'm sure there will be something to surprise me every year. Last year was the best though. My biggest surprise was that I didn't have to spray my brugs all summer for mites. Wish that would happen again.
Guess I'll have to lay in a good supply of systemic for next season. I agree that this would be the best way of eliminating or at least controling the weevils. That is if the systemic works on them.
Liz asked me to visit this thread...I'm afraid it's going to be difficult for me to assist in an id...seeing some images might help. Does anyone have any? Weevils sounds like a possibility, but there are plenty of other insects that specialize in eating seeds as well, including some wasps, flies, and other beetles.
I think I read above that entrance holes were not observed, which leads me to think it could be a seed-eating chalcid wasp of some sort. They stick their ovipositor through the seed covering and into the developing seed.
Has anyone seen any weevils (or other 'adult' insects) in association with the pods of the infected Brugs? Are there any adult emergence holes associated with seeds? Were larvae found?
bugguy i picked some relatively immature seeds, they were corky already though. the insides of some were like a mucousy gel... on some the little tail thing that i think would be the germination root fell off. i picked some beans out of a pod that looked good, couldn't see anything, they didn't break up...this morning they had shrunk and are the color of egg yolks. i have bad eyes and no microscope. my impression is that the inside bean which is the real seed is somehow being turned to mush. don't know if the critter than eats the mush or if the mush is a by product.
in the more mature pods mostly the little beans were gone. this is probably of no help! if you have time, maybe you could email me your addy and i could mail you an immature pod.