I wait for White Henryi to bloom each year and welcome him back like an old friend. If you need a source for this one try The Lily Garden. Also if you are looking for a great buy on orienpets try Jung Seed Company. You can get one bulb of 5 different ones for $17.95. I ordered these last year and have loved them. Also a good source for other lilies at reasonable prices.
These are the flowers off 2 bulbs that are maybe 12 years old and not planted in very good locations. One is under a shrub and has to bend over to sneak out and the other one has had it's space invaded by an ornamental grass, but both always give me some great flowers for cutting.
I recently became captivated by this cultivars beauty on the Old House Gardens
site. I haven't really seen it before. I guess I'll have to try to find some for spring
planting. I had some less than stellar results from spring planted lilies last year.
Who's fault? dunno.. But I don't think I will buy lilies from anyone but a grower.
Susan, your white henryii is perfection! They make me think of honey and cream. I have read that it is the same lily as Bright Star and Lady Alice, but they are registered as different cultivars, and others here at DG have confirmed they are indeed different. I do have Bright Star, which does share similar coloring, and I love it. This was their first year, so I'm looking forward to a nice show in '08!
fleur_guy, I prefer lilies from growers too and have received some of the best bulbs from them, but don't judge your lily display too harshly the first year. Lilies need a year to settle in before they really start performing to their potential, then they just keep getting better. I think you may be very pleasantly surprised next summer :)
Gemini & Pirl
Sorry to mislead with a vague statement about results with spring planted lilies.
What I meant to say is that they just plain didn't come up. 2 out of 2 for L Girosa
and 1 out of 3 for L. Luminairies. 2 of the Luminairies produced a stem but did
not flower. OK - planted late, 1st year etc. The 3rd did not come up at all. The
Girosa did not come up at all. Is there "any" possibility that the dud bulbs could
magically sprout this spring? Or is it time to move on?
How I'd love to comfort you but I've never had them come up if they didn't come up the first year, even though the first year they're getting adapted so I don't expect too much but I do want to see some flowers.
I've had them skip a year. So I do think there's hope. I had an instance where I planted in the fall, and they sprouted that fall, as the fall was so mild, and didn't come up the next spring, but the next year they were back on cycle.
I've also planted in the spring, ones that were not pre-cooled, and had them not come up till the following year.
I much prefer spring planting for lilies.
But lilies like Gemini is offering in his co-op are precooled, and should come up the spring they are planted. Places like Ednie pretend to be winter for you. So the lily is at the proper place in the cycle for spring.
So fleur_guy to sum it up, if the lilies you planted in the spring were not pre-cooled ones, they may skip a year. If they were pre-cooled ones, they may be goners.
Pirl, you're probably not wrong. And that picture of Easter lilies is lovely. Easter lilies are not hardy in my area, and since you are a zone warmer, you might have had a colder spell that did them in. I think they seem to be pretty fussy to grow anyway, but yours obviously did well.
Mine have never survived the winter. I think most sites only rate them to Z6, so you've done well, Moby .
I think it depends on the cultivar, also. I remember White Flower Farms had them that were hardy to Z5. But I've never had luck with them. I know the most common lilium longiflorum for Easter lilies is Snow Queen, but some of the other cultivars might be hardier. I've never attempted to try the different cultivars after loosing them one year.
All of mine are from Easter gifts. They've always flowered the next year and it couldn't have been the rabbits since the lilies are in three gardens and not a bit of green ever emerged. I also use many bags of blood meal to keep the rabbits away from the many lilies including the Asiatic and Orientals and OT's, etc.
pollyk, why do you prefer spring planting for lilies? All the spring lilies I've planted have come up and done pretty well. I'm on my second year coming up with Casa Blanca. Hope they get bigger and better this year. I planted Monte Negro some years ago and they came up but weren't as good as they would have been planted in the fall.
Pirl, I am referring to the pre-cooled ones. They bloom the first year, but the main reason is that I have the full seasons growth on them before going into winter and get a better survival rate that way. Especially with the more tender ones like the Orientals.
revclause, why do you think yours were not as good as they would have been if planted in the fall?
Mine always do better fall planted, even in this winter wonderland. Can't say that I have ever (knock on wood here ;) ) had one that was fall planted that didn't come up nicely in the spring. There seem to be more offerings in the spring, otherwise I'd pick to plant in the fall every time.
It's interesting to hear there are different experiences out there.
prior to this last spring I would agree that I've rarely if ever had 'no-shows' when fall planted. This year was no different except for the fact that all of those who chose to 'rise early' were nailed by the hard freeze and did not reappear when the weather stabilized. I'm hoping they are just waiting for spring to try again.
I guess I didn't count last spring, as it was highly unusual. Heck, I would have popped my head out too, if I was an oriental on the south east side of the house and it hit eighty degrees. Mine turned to mush (the stem) even covered with that 18 degree three day snap.
I would say though, that it effected all of my lilies. Whatever chose to go nuts on those warm days never saw a bloom due to being frozen out early. 'King Kong' was one of those. So bummed about that one... Hope it makes it up this year.
llilyfan, we must cross our fingers that doesn't happen again this year. One thing is going for us this year, a large blanket of snow to protect them thus far.
[quote]I've planted many lilies in October and November and always had blooms the next year[/quote]
Remember, whether a lily blooms or not, or how many buds it produces, is dependent on the growing season the year before. Planting in spring or fall will make no difference. However for most lilies, planting in the fall before (rather than spring) will produce a more hefty, vigorous plant the following spring, and better flowers.
For all of you that "lost" lilies due to that late cold blast of 2007, the lilies should be just fine, and will emerge this spring on schedule. That is, barring some other calamity like bulb rot or vermin.
I hope you planted your new bulbs a bit deeper this year. There will hardly be a "normal" spring anymore.
I'm not sure I agree with, or maybe don't understand your statement, Leftwood, about making no difference if planted in spring or fall, as to survival. I do know the orientals I plant in the fall have limited success, where the ones I plant in spring do come back the next year. I do a lot of lilies in pots, over winter, and they do much better planted in the spring. It doesn't seem to make much difference with the asiatics and LAs. I feel the orientals are doing better as they are having a chance to establish themselves before winter comes.
Also what you said about :
"However for most lilies, planting in the fall before (rather than spring) will produce a more hefty, vigorous plant the following spring, and better flowers."
I have found if you fertilize them again in the fall, as you would normally do when planting them, they seem to do about the same. I see no noticble difference. What would be the reason the fall planted ones would be more vigorous in the spring, than the spring planted ones in the following spring
In that case, wouldn't you think lilies would get weaker as time goes by?
And there's always a chance of bulb rot when planted in the fall in pots depending on the kind of winter we have. When we don't have a lot of snow they do better, even with my drainage schemes in place. Last winter we had an unusual amount of snow and cold, and then in the spring we had torrential rains and late freezes. I had no luck with any fall-planted bulbs last year, but my spring-planted Casa Blancas came up and bloomed just fine. I planted another 200 bulbs in pots this fall and I'm keeping my fingers crossed, although the winter is starting out much like last winter. Normally we don't have a lot of snow at this time of year. But we do now, just like last year only not as much. I'm hoping for the best.
I am sorry if I somehow mistyped. I made no reference to survival being an issue for fall verses spring planting.
The point that I obviously failed to get across is that the number of buds a lily produces in 2008 (for instance) is not dependent on whether a bulb is planted in the spring 2008 or the fall 2007. It is dependent on the growth of the lily in the growing season (i.e. spring/summer/early fall) of 2007.
My wanted-to-be clarification was prompted by the previous statement I had quoted.
[quote]I've planted many lilies in October and November and always had blooms the next year[/quote]
I was afraid it would mislead readers to think that fall planting would encourage a lily to bloom (vs. not bloom) the following spring. But in fact, whether spring or fall planted, the lily bulb has already decided before planting what it will do the coming season in regards to flowers.
[quote]However for most lilies, planting in the fall before (rather than spring) will produce a more hefty, vigorous plant the following spring, and better flowers.[/quote]
In my opinion, this is true for most lilies (as I said). Planted in the fall, roots have a considerably longer time to adjust, and grow in the new soil, and be better able to feed growing shoots. My statement about being more vigorous in general, in no way implies that lilies planted otherwise are not vigorous enough. I regret that it was somehow inferred.
This is all I said! But perhaps I should have said this: I assume other factors being equal. I am not poo-pooing fertilizing at all, but for comparisons, fertilizing can certainly tip the boat in one's favor.
You didn't mistype. I mistyped. You made no reference to survival. I misunderstood what you said, with survival on my mind. I apologize for confusing you.
What I did get from your 11:25AM paragraph was that lilies planted in the spring (of say) 2007, will not do as well in the spring of 2008, as lilies planted in the fall of 2007 will do in the fall of 2008. I still wonder about that.
Could you please clarify if that is what you mean? I truly value your opinion. I am not by any means a lily expert. I just jumped into growing them to sell, and really don't have that much experience with them, and anything I can learn will help.
Hmmm...I've been lurking here...(Love white henryi!)
I'm just trying to get my mind around these ideas...I don't know if this will make it worse, but what I think I get is that something planted spring 2008 will not do as well as something planted fall 2007. This makes sense to me. Despite whatever is stored in the bulb, we all know that spring-planted bulbs tend to be shorter and have less bloom their first year-they don't have as much established root to grow on.
But, it seems to me that the following year should even them up? For 2008, a spring 07 and a fall 07 planted bulb will have both been in the ground during the same semi-dormant, root building phase. I suppose the real variable would be the conditions where the fall 07 bulb "lived" over the summer compared to the conditions the spring 07 bulb faced, growing and blooming on less-established root systems?
Hmmm... are you trying to say that a spring-planted bulb has to do more "catch-up" over its first winter to make up for being planted directly in growing season, whereas a fall-planted bulb has already prepared itself for winter and can adjust more easily?
I don't usually poke my nose in and offer my opinion on many things, but...This is what I understand about the fall vs spring planted lily bulbs.
If you plant a bulb in the fall and it has time to establish some roots before the freezing weather comes, it will be further along establishing itself than the spring planted bulb. The spring planted bulb is busy doing several things; it must establish roots, put up a stem, and produce flowers. Generally, this is in a smalller time frame than given to the already planted (in the fall) lily bulb.
So I feel that the fall planted lily bulb has an advantage over the spring planted bulb during the first spring/summer, if the winter conditions were favorable. Does that mean I don't plant lily bulbs in the spring, heavens no! I do think the spring planting is benefical to orientals for the coming year and well... a lot of the sellers just don't get the bulbs to you early enough for good root growth in the fall ( especilly for us more northern growers ), and then shall we mention some of the lovelies that are only available in the spring.
Now... I think that under ideal circumstances, a fall planted bulb will definately out perform a spring planted bulb the first growing season, but after that I think they are on even ground.
Just my 2 cents worth :>)
Interesting ideas! There seems to be 2 schools of thought on this idea. I've read posts of northern gardeners who when planting Orientals, prefer to plant them in the spring, feeling that when given a full growing season to establish, they're better prepared to survive cold winters. However, in my area where hardiness is not an issue, I have found fall planted lilies to be sturdier and get taller the first year. I assumed it was because they had the fall and winter to develop strong root systems before vegetative growth began. Spring planted bulbs are often soooo ready to start growing (like those box store bulbs that have grown and budded in the bag), it seems they grow too fast to develop properly. I've also observed that bulbs I've planted earlier in spring perform better than those planted later. Seems to me, in either case, the more time they have to develop a good root system, the better. Its a matter of finding what works best for our individual zones and microclimates.
All that said, availability wins out. Since the selection is better in spring, that's when I usually get them. Lily bulbs are harvested so late, the fall marketing season is short and most bulbs end up going into cold storage for spring sales. Often the soil in northern zones is frozen before fall lilies arrive, so that makes the decision for many.
Well, I think I've just paraphrased everything said above, LOL. I'm enjoying everyone's ideas and experiences on this; great way to learn!
I think that is the key, Lilyfan and Gemini. Sometimes we northern growers just get the fall ones too late, by the time they are harvested. And if we get them earlier, and we have a warm fall, then they sprout and in my experience, then skip the next blooming season. So I guess there is a narrow window of proper planting time for us in the fall.
I definitly agree with you that a fall planted bulb, planted early enough should do better the following spring, than a bulb planted the following spring.
Where I was confused was, I though Rick was saying the fall planted bulb and the spring planted bulb would not do as well thereafter, where to me it seems like they should do equally as well.
So, if I may, I would like to ask Rick for his patience with me to clarify this:
Do you think a lily bulb planted in spring 2007, and a lily bulb planted in fall 2007, all conditions being equal, will perform the same in 2008? And if not why not?
And if anyone thinks I'm being agrumentative, please don't. I really value Ricks opinion and experience, and want to be clear on this.
It seems to me that experience is winning out over theory. I've always believed that bulbs deliver what's inside, what was put there during the growing season at the grower's. My experience tells me that either what was put there at the grower's wasn't all that great, especially if I spring plant, especially Orientals, or that the later planting (rather than planting the prior fall) is responsible. I think our experience is what's important. DH is a sociologist, and when I point out to him what theory knows to be true, he responds with his empirical evidence. (I think he leans toward believing the fallacy of the false cause, lol.) Empirical evidence (experience) can be tainted by a lot of things, but theory is a general rule that applies except where individual conditions lead to relatively unique results.
According to ME (LOL), I think you all have got the gist of it. Lilyfan's post sums up a lot of it quite well, with one minor caveat:
[quote]If you plant a bulb in the fall and it has time to establish some roots before the freezing weather comes, it will be further along establishing itself than the spring planted bulb.[/quote]
This is true, but not necessarily exclusive. Even if a bulb doesn't have time to establish in the fall, it will still have a jump on spring planted bulbs. Growth will begin before you are able to safely put a spring shovel in the ground to plant. And temperature will play a role as to what develops more rapidly - roots or shoots. I may be splitting hairs here, or may not be. I can't say how much of a jump late fall planting will have, but it will still have some advantage over spring, IMO.
I have a friend who routinely fall plants lilies, but does not always water the bulbs in. In many situations, this could be a good thing, as this first winter is probably most inviting for bulb rot, heaving, and deleterious ice formation. Food for another thread indeed. My point is that we might expect fall root development to be minimal, yet my friend seems to have good results.
About the thought that a spring 2008 planted lily will catch up to a fall 2007 planted lily by the end of season 2008:
Well, my 2 cents is: not completely catch up, but it's on its way. Comparing adjustment to the new environment and vigor, yes, they are equal. But because the spring planted bulb will be shorter with a smaller leaf area in general, and still have the same number of flowers to support, all other things being equal, one cannot expect the production of bulb of equal size to the larger plant that the fall planted bulb grew. This analysis also has incremental weight, I would expect, having less value with the vigorous hybrids, and ringing more true with species.
I did qualify the theory of fall vs. spring planting with a "for most lilies", and it is right that several have picked up on this. For the north, orientals planted in the spring for aforementioned reasons (by you, not me) is sound advice, and perhaps for orientpets too, depending on how far north you are. In addition, there is the strangeling Madonna lily, and Eugene Fox says the very best time to transplant martagons is after they flower (and assuming you can take a nice ball of soil along with). So much advice is incremental, with no real defined line of black versus white.
Revclaus's point about experience cannot be tossed out either. It is echoed by nearly every gardener I know.
And Susybell: semi-dormant instead of dormant bulbs.
------------------- Your are CORRECT! And food for yet another thread.
[quote]Do you think a lily bulb planted in spring 2007 (Lily S), and a lily bulb planted in fall 2007 (Lily F), all conditions being equal, will perform the same in 2008? And if not why not?[/quote]
My gut reaction is: yes. But . . .
------ Lily S will be better adapted. During growing season 2007, the bulb is being programmed in your garden to grow in 2008 in your garden. In year 2008 the bulb will be preprogrammed to have the right amount of energy reserves for the number of flowers it is programmed to produce. The root structure will be in balance also. The depth of the bulb will be adjusted (via contractile roots) to better serve its needs. But keep in mind that all this preprogramming is dependent on growing season 2007 in your garden.
----- Lily F bulb is also preprogrammed from growing season 2007, but not from your garden. Still, the adjustment time it does have throught the fall and early spring is definitely of value, but clearly does not match that of Lily S.
So even if Lily S and Lily F are identical bulbs to begin with, Lily S will have changed by fall 2007, due to it being reprogrammed by growing a season in your garden. Thus, in the fall of 2007 you are actually dealing with two different bulbs. So the answer to the question, I think, depends on the type of lily.
-- Orientpets seem to need a season to adjust, whether they are spring or fall planted. So in that case, in 2008, Lily F will seem stunted as they usually do the first season. And Lily S, having already gone through a season of adjustment, should have the correct proportions of leaf/flower/height.
-- For vigorous asiatics or trumpets, I'd even expect Lily S to outperform Lily F in 2008, because they adapt so quickly. In the fall of 2007, I would expect the Lily S bulb to have grown larger than its previous size (which would be the size of the Lily F bulb being planted at that time).
-- And all increments inbetween.
(Weaseled out of that question quite smoothly, thank you very much.)
Whew ! Happy and Successful New Year Everyone!
We are all both Students and Teachers.
I am always up for a mental exercise, thanks everyone.
Wow! I'm thinking we are all saying pretty much the same thing! And you know what they say about great minds!!!!
Leftwood, I thought I had put in there the part about the fall planted bulb having a headstart on the spring planted just because it is in the ground and can respond to the weather way before we can get in the gardens to work. I must have edited it out trying to make more sense!
I was in Tulsa when I typed my response and now I'm back home and to check DG before I turned in for the night.
question: Off Topic - how do you do the quote box? Are there directions someplace? I know how to do bold and italics, but not quote boxes. It would come in handy responding. I know I have read this someplace but have been unable to find it.