PlantFiles is getting a new look! Just in time for spring, we're rolling out a new look for the best online plants database. It will also work with your smart phones and mobile devices, so now you can take it with you on garden center visits or botanical garden tours. Questions or comments? Please post them here.
There are an awful lot of international, federal, and individual state restictions on moving plants (whether seed, live plants, bare roots, etc. between states, whether by personal transport or through a mail carrier. The concerns are generally those related to pest infestations or plants that are considered invasive or an ecological threat to native plants in a given area. My understanding is that these laws apply not only to commercial nurseries but to individual gardeners. Am I wrong on this?
So far we can still send seeds in the mail throughout the States and to other countries.
We living in the states are not to receive seeds from other countries, without certain certification. Which is expensive.
As far as plants, we can mail them from state to state as long as all soil is washed off the roots. With the exception of a few, California and Arizona on some plants, if not all.
Thanks for the link riker. It was most interesting and informative. I had no idea the issue had already been so fully discussed. The only additional comment I would add is that I'm sure 99.9 percent of the folks that trade do so with only the best of intentions. Nonetheless, there are always risks of doing ecological damage by importing/exporting plant material in any form from country to country and state to state. Even thinking that you can contain the plant within your own yard can be a bit naive. Birds and butterflies and bees are not likely to cooperate with your plan and the seeds end up being spread. I'm not trying to preach or be judgemental here or poop on the whole concept of seed trading. I think it is a wonderful concept. Just trying to point out that even the most well intentioned and responsible gardeners could inadvertantly contribute to already unbalanced ecosystems.
I really enjoy going to more local swaps anyway and I think at least for now that is what I'll continue doing. Not only does that feel better to me from a "doing the right thing for the environment" standpoint, but it is also a blast to meet other gardeners at these events.
I've ordered several plants that have been mailed by the companies in one gallon containers soil and all (they have the certificate right on the box), and I suppose they sell so many plants that they do not charge for the certificate. Most of the companies that I order from are outside CA. They have not mentioned any problems with shipments to CA. The only time I heard about a problem was shipping any citrus from CA to FL and vice versa. Now, out of the country is a whole different story. But, within the United States it varies from State to State, what is invasive in one state is not necessarily invasive to another. Like Morning Glories, the companies will not ship to AZ. So it really depends on each state. JMHO. I hope I have it right here, because if I don't, I am one confused person. lol..
I have never had a problem sending my daylily seeds to Canada. I mark them "Seeds" and note that they are a gift and they get right through.
I just sent one of my hybrid daylilies to a breeder in Belgium via a "middle man" in the southern US. The breeder in Belgium told me that although he technically needs a Phytosanitary certificate, he has been importing daylilies without them for years.
Sharing and trading cultivars is one of the greatest attractions of DG. If someone from another state visits my home, I give them plants they admire. Sending it thru the mails is not very different from that.
Plants are moving freely on ebay and the government is not intefering.With the extensive travel from state to state by auto and airplane, I can assure you that spores are already moving back & forth.
If it bothers you, I will be happy to put you on my "do not send to" list. No problem.
Chilterns has all their ducks in line for international sales as does Thompson and Morgans. IndaShade will receive no surprises on the bill.
Bad news, best to check with your individual states as to what is legal and what isn't and best to check if what you are sending to another state is legal or not too. Seeds, rhizomes, and bulbs are not treated differently than an actual plant. These laws apply to all of us. Noxious weeds are noxious weeds and unfortunately we all get punished because of a few bad eggs. You might want to take a look at how Connecticut and Colorado handle exotic invasive plants as they are rather progressive. Florida and Texas have an interesting way of addressing the issues too.
Buyers and sellers get hammered on eBay for unlawful transactions all the time. Do a quick search for some people who are trying to sell water hyacinth and their listings will clearly state they don't sell it to anyone in certain states.
This statement was so true, "Even thinking that you can contain the plant within your own yard can be a bit naive. Birds and butterflies and bees are not likely to cooperate with your plan and the seeds end up being spread." Plants do not respect boundaries, they never have and never will. I don't mean to be preachy either but I personally spend hundreds and hundreds of hours eradicating non native invasive species of both flora and fauna. There are thousands of volunteers across the US who go out and try their best to remove species that wreak havoc in the environment and quite frankly, it offends me when people do it on purpose because they take the stance that "just one more plant" won't make a difference. Well, hundreds and thousands of people who take this stance can and do make an incredible impact.
Technically, there are no bad plants... just some plants planted in the wrong place as in on the wrong continent. Add to this the fact that the average tax payer is absolutely clueless that he/she is getting stuck with the clean up bill and we will have created a heck of a lot of confusion. I don't mind mentioning these issues in a gardening forum where people are tolerant and respectful but to mention it to one of my neighbors growing Dame's Rocket while weeding around her Queen Anne's Lace and fertilizing her English Ivy and Lily of The Valley... who has a pair of burning bushes flanking her front doorway with a Bradford Pear displayed prominently in her front lawn is asking for me to be viewed by her as someone in need of a nice snug white jacket. These plants are extremely popular. Supply and Demand. People aren't going to part with their beloved plants unless there are laws forcing them to do so and even then there will always be those who knowingly circumvent those laws.
Right now, our limits are defined by Country as well as state lines. For me, my property resides a mile or so from the Wisconsin border so my growing environment is considerably more comparable to southeastern Wisconsin yet I am bound by laws that cover all 3 zones of the state of Illinois. Basically, I am in Zone 5a because of proximity to the lake yet the southern portion of Illinois is in Zone 6b. That's a pretty big spread considering a good size chunk of northeastern Illinois is a zone 4. I may not have problems with water hyacinth in my area but they certainly do down south of me. I have issues with a few species that are deemed noxious in Wisconsin that haven't yet made it to our State's hit list because of back logs yet they are still a big problem for my County. State lines will look rather arbitrary when viewed from the perspective of growing conditions. Which for all practical purposes round robins us to personal responsibility. Do what you believe is right and within your comfort zone.
The best thing we can all do is attempt to keep learning and promote education. Good communication will be paramount in the years to come and it will better enable people to make the best decisions for them. I for one began taking a serious look at these complex issues when entire subdivisions in and around me began incorporating bylaws that stated it was against their covenants to plant anything other than a native plant. Ugh, do we really all want to end up like those subdivisions some time down the road? I certainly don't. There are just too many exotic non native plants out there that are well behaved that do not threaten native plant communities and entire ecosystems. For me, I keep to myself and do my own thing on my own property and I do not even comment to any of my neighbors.
Here’s a really great book that brought the issues into perspective for me, “Noah’s Garden” by Sara Stein.
Yes, I know Dyson. Too much can be overwhelming for me and for many others. That is why I choose to do my best cleaning up my own property and not worrying about what neighbors do with theirs. I do volunteer hundreds of hours in the community working with kids though. Funny, the children grasp the concepts better than many adults. I must admit that I particularly like working with one particular Ranger. This guy has taught me a lot as has one particular land steward. Funny how you pick up so much repeatedly bending over to hand pull Garlic Mustard. Seems as if conversation just flows when people are working on public land. By the way, here's a good one for you... I found gypsy moth egg cases all over my oaks and hickories- gasp. Thanks to what I learned volunteering with a member from these very forums at her forest preserve... I knew exactly what to do.
Hi Dyson, no need to rent heavy equipment for that Tree of Heaven, it would just come back ten fold to haunt you anyway unless the stumps were treated. I can offer some suggestions if you are interested. Contact me privately and I will share with you how we handled them in South Carolina. Come to think of it, there's a member here who manages thousands of acres and I bet she might even have some better ideas. Best wishes to you.
Hope no one minds if I jump in and make a few comments here. This is a subject dear to my heart and my livelihood.
Wandazflowers brings up an interesting point-that plants are moving freely via e-bay and the government is not interfering.
Because they can't. There's not enough time or money to hire people to search e-bay or the internet for violations. Regardless of the law here in Colorado how could this be enforced except at the end user-meaning after it's growing in someones garden? Are you going to support a national tax to hire me and others to track down and try to prosecute those illegal sales on the internet?
As Equilbrium points out, " People aren't going to part with their beloved plants unless there are laws forcing them to do so and even then there will always be those who knowingly circumvent those laws." Too true!! I would love to think that education alone will solve the problem. In time it may. But, we still need strong regulation to slow the problem. People will not do what they can't get away with.
As far as regulating the movement of seeds across borders there is a huge disconnect between what each state department of agriculture regulates and what the Federal government regulates. Understandably so-each state has the right to do what it need/thinks important. The problem however is that seeds or plants of just about anything on a state banned list can be shipped from other countries into the US legally thru APHIS with their blessing because it's not on their banned list. Those banned plants/seeds go on to places where it is patently illegal to grow!!
I've had this conversation with many-in particular, current members/employees of the USDA APHIS regulatory team for importation of biologoical control and weed regulation. Imagine my surprize when I learned that this scenario takes place all the time. Although they are cognizant and very concerned about the problem it's not within their regulatory authority!! And, that in order to get around the various state laws sellers are increasingly turning to the internet mail order buisness where addresses are not published, phones are not needed and they can't be tracked!!
Just for giggles I have a few searches set on e-bay for plants that are common problems (toadflax, Russian olive, tamarisk, dames rocket, african rue, ox-eye daisy, tree of heaven). I get hits on a daily basis for at least one of the above and all but the tamarisk). Sure, some of the sellers have disclaimers that such and such seed or plant cannot be shipped to certain states. Many do not and most do not want to hear it even if asked not to sell this with in a particular state. Some sellers clearly state that it is solely the buyers responsibility, and while I agree that we need to take responsibility for what we plant I also know that the law here states differently-sellers, buyers, growers are treated alike under the law and it's still illegal. To me this is a cop-out. If I know the item is illegal in Colorado, sell it anyway BUT state that you the buyer are responsible then I'm off the hook? Not legally and certainly not ethically.
Sellers on e-bay get around selling African Rue (highly invasive and outright banned here and in other states) as an ancient medicinal plant that our ancestors used as well as a "legal hallucenogen". What a bunch of baloney! This is what I was told from a seller on E-bay who is located in a state where the plant is patently illegal to grow, sell pr posess, " The plant is not illegal to posess, sell, or anything else. I do believe your right about it being classified a noxious weed. But as such the cultivation law doesn't apply to a back yard gardener growing a few plants for their own use. It would only be illegal to cultivate it commercially." Here's another, " Peganum Harmala [african rue] is a sacred and medicinal plant. It is not illegal. It is classified as a “noxious plant” to increase awareness of its overpopulation due to our American forefathers who planted this wonderful herb in much to large a quantity." Didn't know that our American forefathers arrived in this county in the 1930's.
People will say and sell anything if and only if there's a market for it. Want to make a difference?? Do not buy from companies that do business in these plants! But in the mean time I want strong laws in place (and not for traders with the best intentions-they can be cured with education, lol).
I understand the problem. Fortunately, most of us are not sending invasive plants but rather cultivars that have crossed the ocean for centuries: iris, daylilies, lilies, peonies, phlox and house plants.
I know that many plants that are merely a annual here in Iowa can become very invasive in warmer states that have no killing frost or where the seeding can be overwhelming. I about died when Mom bought 5 Trumpet vines for the fence in my garden. HELP! And she bought the darn things from a well known national catalog. They would smother my whole garden in a few years if I let them!
I agree that we need to be cautious. Who hasn't seen the kudzu crawling up from the South? Animals & fish with no natural predators can be a problem too. Coyotes re- introduced into Iowa to lower our deer population have destroyed our quail.
The variety in our gardens is a result of our seeking rare cultivars not available locally. And DG allows us to trade or share plants/seeds with other gardeners who may not be able to afford to buy them. I am always willing to share.
Awesome! What a great response! Holy moly! Great balls of fire caron! Sadly, I am for stiffer regulation. II don't see any way around it. Looks as if that's the direction we are going anyway.
And Dyson, you might want to start a new thread. I received several PMs from people who seem desperate to get rid of that Tree Of Heaven. For the most part, they seem to be merely cutting it down and that's the big problem as it will just come back a hundred fold if not treated. Maybe if there is a new thread on just getting rid of that particular plant, they can all hop on. I do know that chainsawing it and immediately painting the stump with Tordon RTU or full strength Garlon 3 or full strenth concentrated BrushBGon works quite well as that's what we used to eliminate that monster and the darn tree IS aleopathic so as many of those trees as we can get rid of is great!
I am always will to trade too Wanda. But I will not be one sending any ox-ey daisy or dames rocket (which I can get seed of by walking down the block) no matter how bad anyone wants it!!
And I REALLY hope no one thinks I was targeting anyone here, I'm not!! Just trying to share some of my experiences. This is just general garden variety (pun intended) musings as I am in the business of controling some of these nasties for a living.
He he he, I certainly don't send out seed of Dame's Rocket or Ox-eye daisy as I bag that and toss it in the dumpster or burn it! It burns very well! Snap crackle pop! Bonfire at my house this weekend for more buckthorn!
I haven't been doing any trading lately as I have more than enough on my plate but I have been sending out seed of mine that people want just because I love it when somebody shows an interest in a native plant. I must admit, I am also sending out some hosta seed for somebody to try to germinate! I did have somebody ask me for Queen Anne's Lace seed last week. I basically told her what the issues were with that plant and offered her a substitute of both Veronicastrum and native yarrow. She really liked both of those and took them. For every nasty out there, I have found there to exist a multitude of responsible alternatives.
I have not heard of these two plants you are talking about. What is wrong with them? Are they invasive? I looked them up on the database and they are nice looking plants. Didn't see any comments on them there.
Both are invasive. From mildly to horribly depending on the location. They are banned in some areas with more info coming in from gardeners/weed managers/states/counties of invasions in new places that are hard to eradicate.
I'm gonna take a chance here and thow out something. I do agree with Wandasflowers that many gardeners are seeking rare cultivars that are hard to find or just something different to grow-hence trading is a great way to do this. I have no specific issue with sharing or trading here or anywhere else and do not want to see this practice end...
But here's something to think about, and I am NOT faulting anyone, just making another observation.
Did a search here for trade items and this is what I found:
Kudzu - 1 (wanted)
Arundo donax-1 (wanted)
Tree of Heaven-1
Toadflax- (linaria dalmatica or L. vulgaris)-5
burning bush=Kochia scoparoia-2 (1 wanted)
Queen Ann's lace-5
Loosestrife all varieties except purple -13 (5 wanted)
English Ivy-7 (1 wanted)
Burning bush- 6 (3 wanted)
St John's wort-2
Ok, I'm not suggesting that anyone be banned from offering these nor would even I suggest it. These are small amounts in the grand scheme of things to be sure.
is this a problem? How do we educate then without coming off as eco-fanatics (eco terrorists, eco-nazis, whatever)?
Do we bother? And are we arrogant enough to think that if we educate then people will automatically "see the light" and see things "our" way?
Some people are just clueless that one plant is invasive in one area, but not in another. Of course this is probably the reason for "White List" proposal. While your state may have banned something, it may be widely planted in another (even by the state itself). Things like Ox-eye Daisy and St. John's Wort are sold and planted here. Queen Anne's Lace is allowed to grow (and go to seed) here as a wildflower. Things known for invasiveness around here - Elephant Ear, Japanese Honeysuckle, Ligustrum/Privet, Castor Bean, Chinaberry, Water Hyacinth, Winter Honeysuckle Bush (sold in the recent co-op), Nandina, Chinese Tallow. How many people outside of this area grow them, not knowing this? I know I have been guilty of growing stuff that just barely lives around here and would be clueless that it would take over elsewhere. The White List proposal is a bureaucrats way they think they are protecting us from our own ignorance.
Perhaps some folks would be willing to volunteer to start a separate or sub data base of invasives that contain all this great info by plant, including the areas in which they are invasive and why? I have done many searches trying to come up with some sort of all incompassing list and have not found one. In fact the one you posted, caron, is the best I have found. Thank you. I'm not anywhere near as knowledgable about invasives as many of you are, but I would be willing to help in whatever way I can to put such a data base together.
I really like the seed trading idea here and would like to participate, but my ignorance of what is invasive in other parts of the country and the world is what is keeping me from doing it. If there were a data base where I could look up plants that I might want or have to trade with to find out if and where they were invasive, I know I personally would feel much more comfortable about trading. I would also really hate to see DG be forced to stop this trading altogether because of any lack of oversight or individual accountability for responsible trading. Let's face it, in the event this practice came to the negative light of regulators, it would be far easier for them to just shut down DG altogether than to go after individual traders who have or do advertised invasive for trade.
Kudzu, once thought to invade only the southern reaches of the country has been found far outside its known range. Clearly we don't know everything (and in this arena may know nothing at all). But it seems that if the possibility of invasiveness exists even in another region of the country, this may be reason enough to go think about looking for somthing a bit more suitable to the area?
Here's another example: Tamarisk (salt cedar) which is a problem in the southwest (yes, once again our own VERY BIG mistake) and thought to be limited severly by elevation has been found growing at 9500' in the Colorado Rockies. Is it spreading? Well, not rapidly that's for sure. But it is alive and reproducing. A well known and respected, large nursery in New Mexico sells and recommends Tamarisk in a state where it's illegal and a major problem. Tamarisk does not particularly like the conditions in the midwest but on a trip to the Chicago area this summer it is clearly growing there too. I am really left wondering what it is that we don't know about all this and what other invasive plants will prove to be highly adapted in someone elses "unsuitable" region/climate, etc...Not sure that I want to find out in 20 years that that ox-eye daisy has spread to every state and is now the poster child for noxious weeds like tamarisk is here in the southwest, or Purple loosestrife is elsewhere.
I would however urge eveyone to read entire the text of the "white list" proposal and make up their own minds and not rely on seed/plant seller web sites (who have the most to loose dollar wise) for out-of-context information that is so common on the internet.
Here is a link: http://plants.usda.gov/cgi_bin/topics.cgi?earl=noxious.cgi
It's fairly inclusive but is sometimes slow to update with rapidly changing weed laws in each state.
But you can search by Federal status, by state, and then there is the giant composite list (slow to load).
It's a start.
You can also generally search the net for the plant name + invsasive to get a better handle on what's being reported in different areas. Sometimes each states official list is published on either the states Department of Agriculture web page, or the Department of Natural Resources web page.
Ok, writ my name down in the "clueless" column. How and where do I find out what is on my paticular state's (NC) 'banned' list? I trade seeds and plants all the time, and I had no idea all this was going on! Help, someone!
go to the link I posted and find your stae under the "state Noxious Weed Reports" section. Your list was updated sometime last year so it may/may not be complete These are legally defined noxious weeds only. It does not include some of those we are talking about here-invasive plants listed in one state and not another that you may/may not grow (or may want to grow)
Wow, somebody just touched upon my single greatest concern. You may not realize it but this has already happened... "this practice came to the negative light of regulators". It is only a matter of time before the "Powers That Be" are in a position to take action. And they will take action once a systemetized means by which to regulate and enforce same is identified. I would hope that individuals who are perpetuating the spread of exotic invasives would be held personally accountable for their actions however our government (those beaurocrats) has a history of over compensating and practicing overkill in an attempt to make a statement while righting wrongs. One simple little court order can blow open the shroud of secrecy as pertains to the anonymity we enjoy by having user names here. I do not want to see a day when we all lose the ability to trade plants and/or seed amongst ourselves. I would much prefer taking a few baby steps and disallowing the trade of any and all seeds and/or plants deemed to be unlawful with out the appropriate permitting. Water Hyacinth comes to mind since it carries particularly stiff fines in quite a few states. There are others. Why not police ourselves and... dare I say it... practice personal responsibility by PMing people we see who are either wanting seeds/plants that are listed noxious weeds or listing seeds/plants that are listed noxious weeds. I am of the opinion that more often than not, the tendency of human beings toward good is not so dissimilar from water flowing downwards. I whole heartedly believe that if the vast majority of people know a particular plant is illegal or on the hall of shame list for their state that they will not allow it to change hands. Just my humble opinion.
This is an extremely valid point, "I am really left wondering what it is that we don't know about all this and what other invasive plants will prove to be highly adapted in someone elses "unsuitable" region/climate, etc..." I could fill entire encylopedias with what I don't know. Kudzu, thought to be incapable of surviving in my region, is marching right toward me. Tamarisk, already mentioned by caron above, is here too. Tamarisk wasn't supposed to be able to survive here nor was Kudzu. But they have and are surviving quite possibly due to adaptive mutations??? I would be a proponent of the white list. Not unduly restrictive and definitely in the best interests of the tax payers.
Thanks caron and langbr. Those links are certainly both quite helpful. Thing is, the PDB says they MIGHT be noxious or invasive (which btw I'm not sure I understand the distinction between) by which I have been assuming they ARE in some areas and NOT in others. The federal one is more specific, but if I were a trader, it would be awfully time consuming to look up each seed for each state to know where I should not be sending them. I actually did try to do that in a couple of cases and gave up because I just don't have that much time to devote to hunting down the info on a state by state basis.. This is really the only reason I have chosen thus far not to participate in long distance swapping.
Hi shazbot, your Variegated Japanese Euonymus sticks out like a sore thumb but that Rose Of Sharon might be an issue. I just did a quickie look and that's what I saw out the gate. Try to get the botanical names of your plants and it will make your searches so much easier.
Thank you, caron. I don't have anything on the list, except maybe one. There are 3 varieties of mimosa listed. I have a mimosa tree, and I'm going to check to see if it's one of the ones on the list. Thank you all for all ther info you've left here!
Understood Terry. And I really had looked at each of those links you posted before I even started this thread. As they themselves evidence, and as you actually stated, in the first one, the varying definitions of each of those terms is pretty pervasive, not just at DG, but everywhere. It is exactly those differences state to state and country to country that concern me. I am much more comfortable trading within my own area at local or at least within state swaps because I do have at least a passing knowledge of what is invasive, noxious, and undesirable here. However, IMHO, when hundreds of us actively encourage and conduct interstate and interactionational free trade, the potential for doing harm become exponential. My suggestion for a DB specific to INUs (don't know if that is an existing acronym of if I just now made it up...LOL) was as a possible means to continue the wonderful idea of trading, but make it easier, safer, and more comfortable for us to do so responsibly. I can see however, given all the hype, confusion, multiple definitions, and lag time in identification, how this might be too major an undertaking for us.
Your post illustrates the problem well and the mass confusion surrounding this issue for all of us!!
Allium textile is listed as invasive on DG. But, it is listed as a native plant by the Plants National Database. PND also lists Allium as an invasive genus (but not specific species) in the state of Arkansas. It is not listed in the big list of all legally controlled weeds under the name of Allium textile on this site.
Someone on DG listed it as invasive but not where it's invasive and we absolutely no idea who listed it.
Denver plants.com lists it as non-native but not invasive. Not true-it is a native.
Friends of Sweetwater Park (Georgia) list this as invasive in the park but it's not listed formally in Georgia as regulated.
Ok, that's alot for anyone to wade thru!!
Without further clarification I probably wouldn't trade any allium species to Arkansas. But wouldn't hesitate to trade this in areas of shortgrass prairie where it is a naturally occurring component.
Doubt anyone is going to shut down any trade site unless we are talking about federally listed plants being traded, pville. EDITED PART--Ok after reading Laura's post maybe not-she adds some very good points and concens.
We do the best we can (but need to honestly do the best we can), search out info, and talk to other gardeners on site like this.
Those who aren't comfortable trading online, don't know what is legal to trade from state to state, or for any other reason don't want to trade, shouldn't trade.
I suspect that if we took steps to enforce the USDA and state laws or provide "official" information about the laws, it would - in all likelihood - backfire on us. You know the saying, no good deed goes unpunished. If we began acting as the government's enforcer of these laws, we would become equally culpable for our members' infractions of said laws. Quite honestly, we have enough on our plates without acting as the seed/plant police or worrying about defending ourselves if/when the government agencies decide to get diligent about seed trading.
Don't we act as eyes for governmental laws all the time? Isn't it the specific regulatory authority the enforcer?
Yup, I report those I feel are driving so erratically as to pose a threat to others. I'll let the authorities figure out if they were drunk, on meds or just distracted.
Yup, if I see someone steal something from a store I say something. And I have literally grabbed children by the neck that I have seen shoplifting and had them return the items to the clerk. I'll let the clerk decide to press charges or not and the cops do their job calling their parents/taking a complaint.
Yup, I turned my landlord into the County Board of Health. They wouldn't fix the septic when there was raw sewage in the yard for weeks and they refused to do anything about it. I let the State do their job with my tax money.
I have also had polite talks with nursery owners here about selling legally defined noxious weeds. And I turned one person in to both the county and the state when those plants were not removed after a month.
It's funny, I know how much is spent in tax dollars to do weed control and eradication. I don't want to see people fined. But as someone who not only contributres to the tax base but is fully accountable for spending it, it kinda burns me when someone won't simply pull out that dames rocket from the yard when presented information on the law.
I don't feel like I'm a fanatic or anything-I don't do this all the time-but there have been occasions...
Wow, you guys were busy while I took a break. Many great points made. I trade and will continue to trade though because I enjoy it and because I am fairly confident in my knowledge of invasives.
Quoting:But it seems that if the possibility of invasiveness exists even in another region of the country, this may be reason enough to go think about looking for somthing a bit more suitable to the area?
I agree with you Caron, because that is what I would do, but I was just saying that many people just don't realize that something is invasive in another area when buying it and planting it. That's the problem. The people selling Water Hyacinth even though they know it is invading waterways in many states are another story. Not everyone is well read on botany and horticulture, or researches every thing on the internet though. Many are everyday gardeners who just buy pretty stuff and try it, not researching it or anything - most of our Grandparents were like that. I might buy Dame's Rocket at a store if I thought it was on clearance and pretty, because I never realized it was invasive elsewhere (until reading this thread). If I was not one who read everything about everything thing I buy or am interested in, then I might send seeds to someone in another state, who themselves do not realize it's invasive in their state. Most people are not spreading these invasives knowingly.
The option of invasives on the PDB is definitely an opinion. Look at Winged Sumac. It is a native of the US, but is considered invasive because in it spreads like crazy especially when not in it's natural habitat (where it has competition).
sweezel and caron...as I read it you are both saying pretty much the same thing. There is certainly a vast differnce in intent between the supposedly professional growers who do it knowlingly and intentionally, and the home gardener who does it unknowingly. The unfortunate part is that as far as the end result goes, intent doesn't matter much :-(
Good links, sweezel-especially The Nature Conservancy one. I use this all the time for control reference and ideas.
I do totally agree with you!! Especially this, "most of our Grandparents were like that. I might buy Dame's Rocket at a store if I thought it was on clearance and pretty, because I never realized it was invasive elsewhere (until reading this thread)."
I CONFESS, LOL!! I actually bought dames rockets quite a number of years ago BB (before botany), and planted it in the yard. What a heavenly fragrance!! It's not there anymore thank goodness!
Just bringing up some other points/questions/concerns... I gasped in horror this last year whenIi found myrtle spurge in a close friends garden. I really want to rip the darn thing out when she isn't home. I have resisted and do not want to continually bring this up all the time but it kinda bums me out-she has the info and does not seem to care.
I also agree that most are do not willingly spread invasives around. And that most is from ignorance. That's where we come in...
I do think tho that there is an additional element of not believing (after all, why the heck should anyone believe ME if I tell them this?), an element of "it's not invasive here" and an element of "no one will regulate what I can and cannot grow in my own yard".
Pville, I think we are pretty much on the same page too. My arguements were not directed so much at her or anyone in particular :) I just don't want people to be disdained for their unintintional ignorance. As for the White list. I do understand why the White List proposition is out there, even if I do resent the bureaucratic process of it. There are many many beautiful plants that are non-native and non-invasive. I love the natives of my state and purposely plant them, but I also enjoy Tulips in the Spring.
Well, it took me forever with distractions to reply and caron you replied while I was typing :)
I think you are right and we should not be stubborn. I bought 'Morden's Pink' Lythrum, because it is recommended by many sources around here. Loosetrife really is not much of a problem in our state so I did not know the history until later. It is a Loostrife that is supposed to be sterile, so when I found out about the invasiveness, I just got stubborn and thought "it's supposedly sterile and not a problem here". But why should I be so stubborn when there are so many other plants out there. I finally decided it really was not worth it and it's gone, but it took me a while.
"My arguements were not directed so much at her or anyone in particular :) I just don't want people to be disdained for their unintintional ignorance."
Me either sweezwel, and I really hope I didn't do that to anyone...
I'm listening to your arguments for and against trading. Very interesting.
One state's "wildflower" is another state's "noxious weed". I noted that a couple of years ago Iowa legislature declared Nebraska's state flower a "noxious weed" --Goldenrod. This action was in retaliation for Nebraska declaring our state flower (wild rose) a "noxious weed".
Iowa is in the process of restoring praire by planting wildflowers by roadsides.
I see quite a variety in their seeding including plants way too invasive for my gardens but happily competing with each other: Dames rocket, daisys, sunflowers, Queen Anne's Lace & many others listed as "weeds" elsewhere thrive by our roadsides.
If Europe cannot agree on regulations after years of strife, how can America which is much bigger and more varied? I certainly do NOT want the variety of wildflowers that thrive in Iowa to be limited by what thrives elswhere! Let each state govern itself.
Dame's Rocket and Queen Anne's Lace are noxious, aggressive, invasive non-native plants. Doesn't matter what state they are growing in. They aren't native. Fortunately, they pull up easy, and succumb to round-up readily. Some varieties of sunflowers are not native, but passive. Some varieties of sunflowers (maximillian sunflowers come to mind) are native and aggressive. This is where research comes in! I find Echinacea Purpurea to be very aggressive in my garden, and it's native. Ox-Eye Daisies are not native to the US. I don't find them particularly aggressive, actually, I find them to diminish every year.. I do burns. Very carefully, as I live in the 'burbs. Even when they are not burned, I don't find them crowding other things out. I never found them to be crowding other things out, even before I stated burning. Their leaves are small, their root systems are shallow. This is definitely not to recommend them. Just the facts, as experienced in my garden.
What kind of rose? Rosa Multiflora is a noxious weed. Aggressive, not native. It deserves to be called a weed, IMO. It is cut down on sight here. Native pasture rose, however, is not. Rosa Carolinia, I think.
Goldenrods and Asters are native to the US. However, if they don't have the proper competition from other prairie forbs(flowers) and especially native prairie grasses, and aren't subjected to periodic burns, they will become invasive. If someone wants them as specimen plants, they will have to deal with their amazing ability to root-sucker, and keep on top of them.
If Iowa is planting these plants you mentioned by the roadsides...they are NOT planting native plants. They are planting things that are "pretty." Nothing wrong with pretty, though I think native plants are prettier. They are NOT restoring the prairie. They are helping to destroy it. To say that they're prairie plants, and "restoring the prairie" with them is not right. Because these plants did not exist in the tall grass/mid-grass prairie. They couldn't have. It would be physically impossible. 4 of the 5 plants you listed are native to Europe or Asia. The 5th one may or may not be native, depending on the species. Are they planting native prairie grasses with them? Probably not.
To be scientifically correct about it, native plants are ones that pre-dated settlement by Europeans. Which can be determined by soil core samples, Lewis and Clark, Audubon, and the rare remnants of virgin prairies.
"Wildflowers" and "Native Plants" are 2 VERY different things. "Wildflowers" are what you buy in a tin at Home Depot. Which, it sounds like, the state of Iowa did for their roadsides. They'll look nice for a year or two. Then it will revert back to some sorts of weeds that people will not be happy with, and they'll just start mowing it again.
I have about 30% "wildflowers" in my front yard, to keep within the weed laws, and please the neighbors and, yes, myself. My back yard is all native, all the time. April
I have noticed from looking at some of the states Department of Transportation homepages that some specify their roadside beautification plantings. They call these native wildfllowers. Wow, that sure gives the general public the impression that since the DOT is planting them and they look as to survive harsh roadside conditions then they must do well and be ok to plant in their gardens! A good portion are not native at all and consist of dames rocket, oxeye daisy, and others. Here's one from OK DOT, "You do not say where you are from, but in Oklahoma oxeye daisy is NOT an invasive species. " OK, I can live with that. BUT if the primary mechanism of spread for noxious weeds is by vehicles and Oxeye daisy is being transported into Colorado where it is a noxious weed and forms large monocultures crowding out other vegetation then I consider OK's plantings my states problem!!
I do have to give them alot of credit tho-they go on to say, "Oklahoma DOT is dependant upon donations for seed purchases and, at times, donors prefer certain species, despite our efforts to divert their interest to native species that will thrive and persist in Oklahoma's variable climate...In response to your drawing this to our attention, I think we will revise our list and website, perhaps noting species that are invasive in other states. We are very careful not to plant anything listed on the OK Department of Agriculture's noxious weed list. "
You go caron!!! I love it when citizens can actually make a positive impact on the beaurocracy. I guess I have been rather naive. It never even occured to me that the roadside vegetation (flowers or otherwise) were actually planted. I've just assume that the wildflowers were, well...wild. In the spring in Texas we have a pretty eye popping display of bluebonnets and indian paintbrush all along highway medians and side banks, as welll as practically any park, field, or lightly wooded area. The Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower Center is not far from me and I know they do cultivate wildflowers (now that I think about it that seems like kind of an oxymoron) and they do have a pretty substantial education center. Thinking way back to when she was the First Lady, I do recall highway beautification being one of her pet projects.
P'villePlanter, The thing about planting a praire is...you can't just throw down some seed, go away, and expect it to thrive. There is a certain amount of cultivation involved, especially if you are planting from seed. The first thing you must do is clear your future prairie of the "seedbank" of weed seed that may be there. Which means spraying everything with round-up. Wait until everything dies, then start watering. When the new weeds are a foot high...round-up again. Repeat at least 1 more time. In very late fall...(in my neck of the woods, late november) spread your prairie seed. Cover with straw, if you wish, to keep birds away from the seeds. The first growing season...you keep your prairie mowed to 6 inches. Knocks back weeds that may shade the native seedlings, and gives them a chance to get established. You will not see any blossoms the first year, unless Rudbeckia Hirta is among the seeds sown. This spring was my prairie's first. I identified rudbeckia Hirta and some switch-grass. Some baby monarda, and that's all I saw. Prairie plants, in their first growing season, are more concerned with putting down roots than with top growth. I'm working on faith, here. The early spring of this next growing season..I will mow it really close 1 time. And then we'll see what develops. I know for sure I'm going to be pulling up lots of queen Anne's lace...It is recommended that you don't pull up weeds in a first year prairie, as you may dislodge some seedlings. Some people even recommend not pulling weeds in the second year. Yes, the first 2 years a bit of cultivation is required..but after that...almost none, if you are planting native plants. April
She has a few photos posted here in the forums somewhere of her first year prairie.
RU isn't the ONLY way to remove existing vegetation to prepare for a prairie ;) Quite possibly the quickest though and it is a short life chemical.
For those who are vehemently opposed to even a short life chemical, there are a few options.
One can smother entire areas using tarps. Lift em up in a year and that should have sufficiently fried anything beneath beyond recognition. Great way to kill off GM too if one is opposed to hand pulling!
One can also go for the lasagna approach. Similar to above but utilizes layer upon layer of wet newspaper. Holes are dug and plugs are planted right through the layers of newspapers. Benefit is that the surrounding newspaper helps reduce the threat of invasion which keeps competition to a minimum while the plugs and seedlings are setting down roots in the first year when they are most vulnerable. The ink used in newspapers these days is soy based so no need to worry.
Me, I'm going for a combination attack thanks to dodecatheon pushing me over the edge and getting me to accept that some times... chemicals really should be used. I'm spraying RU on a day when there is no wind whatsoever to avoid any possibility of overspray. I'll try to spray around noon when the plants in the area should be photosynthesizing their little hearts out. I'll let that sit for about 2 weeks. Next, I'm butchering the grass by positioning the blade on the lawn mower to the lowest position possible. I'm a big fan of corn glutten meal so I'm sure I'll fling that all over the area to fix a little nitrogen. Then I'll begin to cover it with layer upon layer of wet newspaper in preparation for planting the native plug species I want. One thing, if you are going with a seed as opposed to a plug like me, skip the corn glutten meal. In addition to fixing nitrogen into the soil, it has properties that inhibit germination. Plugs will be safe from corn glutten meal, seeds won't be. The area I am converting over will be somewhere between a fifth of an acre and a fourth. The area dodecatheon converted is the entire back half of her back yard. It's awesome! Incredible display she has back there!
Thanks for answering my question Caron. I'm sorry it took so long to get back here and thank you. I don't have any of the flowers on your list and I am glad that I don't. I made the mistake 4 or 5 years ago of digging up a wild flower that I thought was attractive in the northern part of my state and bringing it to southern lower Michigan where I live. I am not sure what the flower is, but have been told it is a wild flox. It turned out to be wild indeed throwing underground runners all over the place. I pull it up every year but it keeps returning. I sure don't want to experience the possiblity of ever having another flower do this. Another plant I have had problems with is Trumpet Vine. I had a neighbor give me one, not knowing much about this plant. It is awful. I have little baby trumpet vines coming up all over the place, as far as l2 ft away from the plant. The roots even go under sidewalks and show up on the other side. If I would have know this vine would be doing this, I never would have planted it.
We had several vines with similar characteristics when we first moved here. Lots of Porcelain Berry Vine and a few native grape vines that were choking an American Elm. I finally found a way to get at all of the vines plus the runners. This may work for your Trumpet Vines. I pulled as much of the vines out of trees as was possible. I laid them out on pieces of plastic and coiled the vine around on the plastic. I waited for a week when there was no rain in the forecast and when the temps were going to be in the 70's so the chemicals would work. Then I poured out regular strength BrushBGon into a little cup and painted the leaves with one of those throw away brushes. I let them lay in the sun until they were dry and then covered up the vines with another piece of plastic so critters couldn't get into the chemicals. The vines looked pretty healthy for over a week and then they started dieing off. I waited another week and then we cut them and bagged them and dug up the base and as much of the roots as we could get out of the ground. A few of the Porcelain Berry vines had to be repainted and left to lay out for another week. So far it has been two years and they have not come back.
Originally, I had used the undilluted concentrate of BrushBGon or maybe it was RoundUp. I suppose I figured if a little is good a lot would be better. Not true. The vines shrivled up and started turning brown in all of two days and I was thrilled. They appeared to be dead in less than a week. Problem is the undilluted concentrate works too fast. The plant died off above ground before it had a chance to transfer the chemicals into the roots and to the runners. Portions of every vine that I had tried to kill off using the "overkill" method came back to haunt me three fold. And they came back with a vengeance as there was a massive root structure with little or no folliage above ground to support. That was a real bummer to see them all come back like that.
Great idea! I'm going to try that with my morning glories. And the tip about not using full strength is particularly applicable to them since where they keep coming up is more through shrubs were it is almost impossible to dig to get to the roots. I might try it on some of the vinca too to try to get it back under control.
First off...The area I am turning into prairie is small...about 500 square feet, but I will double it's size next year. My personal experience with re-creating prairies is strictly the suburban cowboy type. I volunteer at nearby state parks, so I get experience in large scale prarie and savannah and wetland management and restoration from there. At my house, I'm doing a re-creation, not a restoration, as this subdivision was a swampy cow pasture for many decades previous to it's being a sub-division. I will post pictures of it tomorrow. It doesn't look like very much now. In fact, it looks quite dead right about now! We've had a couple of hard frosts. Equil is giving me way too much credit!
I am experimenting, so half of that 500 square feet is being planted with plugs, i.e., plants that are already growing, and as I can afford them. This is the half that I usually burn parts of every spring or fall, but I will give them a rest for this next year and see what happens. These plants have mature root systems that go very deep and can withstand the short amount of time that a "prairie fire" exposes them to high heat. Prairie fires burn very quick and very hot, depending on the fuel load. There are pros and cons on whether to burn in Spring or Fall, so I try to switch off. Also, I try not to burn the praying mantis egg cases, or any other egg cases, so I mark them off, and burn around them. The experts say you should burn no more than a third of your prairie in any one year, so you spare the bulk of the insect egg cases and larvae.
I volunteer to help at the burns the state parks do around here, too. Fire~Fire~
The other 250sf I seeded last November. I can't start burning it until next fall, at least.
The only picture I really have of the area is a picture I took before I got started with my little project...and it's a picture of an echinacea monoculture! I will enclose it. DH had gotten some "Wildflowers" Meadow Mix in a tin from Home Depot (about 5 years ago)and spread them there...and the echinacea is what survived and prospered! Oh, and the da*n dame's rocket. The dame's rocket I have about killed off, and the echinacea I give away to friends and/or offer up on freecycle.org. I got rid of a good chunk of it in one day this way. About 1/3rd of the entire prairie. I want echinacea...just not THAT much of it.
The seeded half of the prairie..well, here I made a mistake. The soil was very compacted due to foot traffic, to the point of hardpan, so I turned it up with a roto-tiller, prior to the Round-up and seeding. This caused a population explosion of queen anne's lace (QAL)! QAL LOVES disturbed ground. Like I said...I did see some native seedlings in there. I am going to mow everything to the ground, with the bag on, and I'll see if I can't get rid of lots of QAL plants and seeds in this way. I'll be using the "glove of death" next year for sure! The glove of death is a nifty thing.
I recommend Round-Up, or glyphosate, for these reasons: It breaks down into it's harmless components in the soil after 5 days, and is not toxic after 24 hours. Even when freshly applied, It's harmless to adults, kids and animals (ask Equil, I spilled a quart of the stuff down my legs at her house once, I was soaked in it, and am here to tell the tale! Wouldn't want to do that with Garlon!), however, it will kill fish. Do NOT spray it near your pond, or any body of water. Keep in mind, the spray will drift, and it will kill any plant it touches, so you still have to be careful. It can take up to 2 weeks to see the results, so be patient...you're not going to have a drooping, dead looking plant the next day in most cases.
The Black Tarp method is another way to deal with your weed seed "bank". What you do is, you spread a black or dark coloured tarp over the area you want to plant. You leave it there for one entire growing season. The heat of the sun will heat the top couple of inches of soil to the point where it kills the weed seed, and any other seed. On a sunny summer day...it gets to about 190 degrees under there! The following planting season, you are all set. This method requires patience, which is in short supply at my house, hence the Round-Up method, LOL!
The "lasagna" method that Equil mentioned is good, too. Though I would add that in addition to about 10 layers of wet newspaper, you need about 2 inches of sand to go on top of it. And on top of that, about an inch of mulch. Looks better, too. JMHO! Affix a bulb auger to your drill, drill planting holes and plant away! Right away! That's how we did it at the state park I volunteer at! I will go there tomorrow and send you some pictures.
Hi, vinca is a slightly different situation. That is sort of like English Ivy in that the top of the leaves are almost waxy so they repel chemical as opposed to absorbing it. I used a stamp licker bottle on those but any sponge applicator bottle will do even an old shoe polish bottle. Filled it up with RU and applied it to the underside of the leaves. You only need to get a few leaves on each plant and it does a pretty good job. In zone 8 you might still have enough time to go after a few of these this year.
As long as you get the Round-Up on the leaves of the plant you want removed ONLY, you shouldn't have any problems! I use an envelope licker thing that Equil gave me, or a small paintbrush, so i deliver the chemical only to the plant I want to go bye bye. April
I have several of the sponge foam type paintbrushes. I just wanted to be sure that there wasn't any way it could "leak" to other plants it is touching or wrapped around once it starts going through the vinca's system since they have so many little roots all along the runners.
Hi PVillePlanter- send me your address and you can be the proud owner of an Office Max... (maybe it was Office Depot) .99 cent stamp licker thingie too!
Hi April- Yup, your recipe helped me break down the waxy coating on the English Ivy this past spring but I found the undersides of the vinca leaves to be quite vulnerable and saved me an extra step when I was able to dab them with standard strength RU. I used Dawn dishwashing detergent in the mix for the ivy but skipped adding the fertilizer as I didn't know which one to add.
April, I was told a minimum of 12 layers (preferably 14-15) of wet newspaper and to skip the sand for plugs. I can see where the sand would be necessary for seedlings along with a layer of mulch but plugs should conceivably be able to go right in with my 2" auger? Right?
Gotta disagree with you on 5 days to break down on glyphosate. It is water soluble and does break down quickly but treated areas are generally not deemed safe to seed or plant in until at least 2 weeks preferably 3 weeks from application. The majority of the toxins are gone after 5 days however some do remain for extended periods of time and wild rabbits and squirrels have been found to have trace elements after a year. Don't know if the existence of trace elements was necessarily a horrible thing as I never could find any research on same.
Here were my biggie hang ups to RU. It is a chemical. It's no secret that I hate chemicals. Herbicides are designed to kill which makes me incredibly uncomfortable. The gylphosate is a fatty acid that clogs the vascular system of the plant. That’s what makes it effective. Several concerns are that study after study is revealing that use of same increases a soil fungus called Fusarium (sp?). Probably not a major concern to me for most areas of my lawn that I want to get rid of but a definite concern over by my little tiny orchard and in and around the areas where the Manchurian apricots, raspberries, and blueberries are planted. I'm thinking I am going to have to go with the tarps in that area and smother away for a year. Come to think of it, I couldn't use RU in that area any way as it is too close to wetlands. Another concern is the number of plants that are becoming resistant to glyphosate which I see as being a potentially major issue in the future if RU becomes over used. Drift is another concern. RU is a non discriminatory herbicide and the slightest of a breeze will carry it and some people get out there and just spray away with wild abandon. There are definitely temperature considerations when applying this product. To the best of my knowledge, temps need to be above 60F but below 85F consistently for a week for the product to have any effect whatsoever. The plant is dormant at temps below 60F. Above 85F, the plant shuts down to conserve resources. If anyone is applying RoundUp outside that temperature range... they are most assuredly just dumping chemicals into their yard senselessly. I may be a convert to using the product but I'm not entirely sold on using it any way other than sparingly and in moderation. We just don't know the chemical's full long term effects yet.
Overall, RU is extremly effective and quite efficient. It breaks down rapidly and is often considerably less destructive to other organisms. I'm going to use it in that one area but I still am sort of uncomfortable with my decision to do so. To date it is the only product I could find to help me waste the reed canary grass aka ribbon grass. If I hadn't used it when you told me to do so, I would be inundated right now.
Sorry Pville, that was more for dodecatheon as a comment on there now existing several species of plants that have "evolved" or been "engineered" so to speak to be resistent to the RU in that their "arteries" aren't clogging any more which means they aren't "dead" after RU is used. The RU will still work on your vinca and quite well I might add. The RU makes things "dead" faster than a tarp but it is not approved for use in or around any water and may not be the most appropriate choice in and around any food crops because of that lousy soil fungus that manifests itself about a week after use. Basically, if your vinca is by a corn or soybean field or other human consumptionable food crop... you might want to consider using something other than RU to make it "dead" until they know more about what impact the presence of this fungus may or may not have. I am very conservative and reserved and dodecatheon is more willing to experiment and practical is about what it comes down to. Use the RU on your vinca and slaughter it!
I noticed, I also paid very close attention on my way to town (Roanoke) to get parts yesterday, about a 30 min ride each way. The tree of Heaven is everywhere, anywhere there is an uncut bank on the side of the road, there it is,
Lots of it looking dead where the power company has sprayed it,only under their lines, the rest of it flourishing and spreading. This cannot be good for native species.
I am currently putting together a "slide show" w/photos of all the plants in the list.
Hi Dyson, nice list... oddly enough, I had difficulty finding one plant on your list that wasn't a problem for us here in Illinois. What a nobile idea to photograph each and every plant on that list. Suggestion, get the leaves and bark too when you photograph. Your list does not include Bradford Pears- http://www.agnr.umd.edu/ipmnet/5-8art1.htm
No Pville... they should all be just fine if you use the RU. I'm really sorry for adding my comments about the fungus, they were more intended as a possible peek into the future if RU is over used. I guess my point would be to hand pull anything that can be hand pulled and don't let anything go to seed as opposed to people out there mass spraying chemicals.
I'm the stump painting contributor. This is not a new concept and is routinely practiced across the US. The chemical used varies based on the species being eliminated and personal preference of the end user. I can attest to the effectiveness of this process. If you would like, I will go outside and photograph an untreated stump and a treated stump just for yucks. They say a photo is worth a thousand words and one photo would illustrate quite nicely the "suckering" back up principle. How do I have this example to share with you... I was so vehemently opposed to chemicals that I had refused to use any in favor of organic controls and about a hundred came back ten fold to haunt me right here on my own property. Well, organic controls DO NOT WORK on Trees Of Heaven or Buckthorn or a few others. When one is stubborn and dumb... one pays and pay I did. Now I am using Garlon. Garlon is my friend particularly when I can control where the chemical goes by painting it directly on the stump so that I can get that cambium layer to take it down into the root system. On particularly large stumps, I drill 1/4" holes down into the stump near the bark and fill them with Garlon. I then place cellophane around the stump to keep critters out of the chemicals but lg ziplock baggies will often fit over the top of smaller stumps that are treated this way and you can reuse them. Tree Of Heaen was one such tree that warranted the drilling of holes.
I downed over 1700 exotic invasive trees/large shrubs last year most of which were European Buckthorn. I am approaching those numbers again this year and will most assuredly meet or exceed that number. I am not alone in going after these species. There are thousands of me across the nation. Yesterday, in between taking much needed breaks by stopping in to use the computer to see what was up here at DG... I took out almost a hundred.There were three of us. Best to not work alone when using chainsaws and best to have somebody haul out what you down to keep the area clean where you are working. Oh if I had a dollar for every time I tripped over my own trunks I would be rich!
Equilibrium - I do wish you would copy the last posting and put it on a thread on a different Forum. It is great information but I fear not many people will read it, as the title of this thread may seem a "slap on the hand" to some who use this Forum. However I feel these same people would read a thread on removal of invasive trees, if it were on a different forum.
Again, this is great info that I would like to see read by many!!
Hi Judy, Go ahead and cut and paste anything you want of mine and start a new thread that you title anyway you so desire where ever you think it would be most appropriate. I always help people who contact me with horrible situations if I am in a position to do so and there are a few other members who do too. We don't live in a bubble and what you do affects me and what I do affects you so the more who are interested in getting rid of the really nasties out there- the merrier. I gotta get outside, bye for now, Lauren
I appreciate the input Judy and you make a good point. But I still think titling a thread for relevance is more appropriate. I do agree, that, as is the case with most threads after a large number of folks have contributed to it, it has naturally expanded to include additional related and relevant information and another thread specific to killing invasive plants might be more likely to catch the eye of those specifically interested in that, but I would hope we wouldn't have to have duplicate threads for everything, one for those easily offended by a straightforward question and another for everyone else. I can assure you that when I started this thread there was no intention to do any handslapping and I believe I have specifically made that point more than once in this thread. I believe that asking if the trading of plant materials by mail across state lines and to other countries without certification was and still is a legitimate and relevant question to ask in this forum and that the impact and potential solutions for controling non native and other invasive species is also relevant..
Not at all Judy. I am just at a loss for how to convey to some of the folks here that when I post, whether it is a question, an answer, an opinion, or an observation, that that is exactly what it is ...no more and no less...I am neither offended nor intending to offend. All I ask is for folks to accept and respond to my posts in that light rather than making them into something they are not.
It's just human nature to take things differently, that is why it is so hard to communicate effective to a large group of people with different backgrounds and personalities. Some people have forceful personalities and some are meek. I try my best to address those who are meek in my posting in hopes of not offending them or anyone else. Many times, I have had to edit and rewrite, for what I initially wrote was much too strong in flavor.
Planter, Equil & Terry Thank you all for the provided links & information.
I only have a little over an acre of land to deal w/here, but it is my acre, and I fully intend to know and control what is growing on it.
This is going to tie up some "ident. forum" time, but I will know what is here.
2nd I intend to compile a complete list w/pictures of the invaseive species in the "lower 48"
I got a pretty good start on the mountain section of this state in a few hours last night (did not get those listed. outside the mountain region (coastal, piedmont). The problem with getting pictures of those not in this area ... Well I will have to get permission to use other peoples pictures (w/due credits of course). This seems a worthy way to spend some time when it is to cold to get much done outside. Actually a lot of the pics will be the same for each state so I can just referance which states consider it a threat right on the picture/info page for that plant.
Then in the spring ... we do battle again. And look to trade seeds with DGer's.
I think that is just a fantastic idea Dyson. I'd be happy to help in whatever way I can. I'm no expert on any of it, but if I can help with research, finding photos, etc. just say they word and I will contribute whatever time I can spare to the effort! I bet you could find several people that would be willing to helpt with this and it is a great (and possibly pretty massive) undertaking, but I think it is most worth while!
As soon as the temp drops a few more degrees I will have some time to work on it, but if you would like to start w/ Texas as I have done w/ Virginia feel free and let me know what kind of info you come up with (links would be a plus).
I've got two for Texas... Water Hyacinth and Water Celery!
My chainsaw ran out of gas goshdarnit and hubby is taking a run to get more!
Dyson, count me in for photos of the nasties! I don't even need to go far as all the ones that naturalized in Illinois seem to be right here on my property! Imagine that! All I need to do is step outside and a whole picture taking experience is there waiting for me so I can add to your photo gallery. Right there for the taking! Lucky me!
Lemme see here, I can contribute several different species of Buckthorn, White Mulberry, Bradford Pear and several other Caleryana Pears, and well then there's Porcelain Berry Vine out there still mocking me that I found in an undiscovered area so I didn't get those on the first round of elimination, Crack Willow, garlic mustard, Cockelbur, Knotweed, Phragmites, Narrow Leaf Cattail, Russian Olive, Autumn Olive, Queen Anne's Lace, English Ivy, Creeping Charlie, Reed Canary grass, Purple Loosestrife, Quack Grass, Tall Fescue, Dame's Rocket, Japanese Honeysuckle, Multifora Rosa, Canada Thistle, Crown Vetch, Teasel, and well the list goes on but it is not endless. I have reduced major quantities of these plants. I am not exaggerating either. This is really how degraded my property was. Depressing isn't it? I have everything under control except the Phragmites, Purple Loosestrife, and Narrow Leaf Cattail. It has taken me two years and in another two years, I should be sitting pretty good except for the three mentioned above that aren't currently under control and may not be for about 5 years. I have to admit I called in professional help several times. Identification can be overwhelming and there are environmental engineering firms out there that specialize in exotic invasive species removal. They are not cheap but sometimes you just gotta bite the bullet. I also received personal help from the Chicago Botanic Garden, The Nature Conservancy, The IL Dpt of Natural Resources, Water Shed Management, The Army Corps of Engineers, Guy Sternberg who wrote the book "Native Trees For North American Landscapes" as well as countless others who came in strong for me when I wanted to put my head in my hands and cry and bulldoze the entire property and then set it all a blaze.
Lauren, Now this is what really excites me is documented, like this piece of cucumber vine, one of the bane of my existance, weeds in my back yard. I have seen your pictures and I know that plant is still a real thorn under the blanket because you took a picture and said so.
We must all have our minds right here, because here's what I have taken today.
Digital cameras are the big seller this year. Mine is a Canon Powershot A75. It's great for the price, less than $200. in Sept. It can also support additional lens, but this one is good enough for me so far. I'm sending a second here in a minute. I'm copying Fla.'s official Invasive list, then a personal one. Then I'm going to search them out. Most of my personal foes I can find within 100' of my yard.
Mug shots will be made and wanted posters will be printed.
Now this is my next delema. This is a picture of a large NATIVE purple azeala in the park across the street. It is covered in Potatoe vine, and southern brambles. I donned full armor, thick coveralls, face mask, boots and leather gloves and got over there and pulled out about a dump truck load 5 years ago. It took the park dept almost a month to haul it off, after all they didn't make that pile of invasive underbrush.
I've got to check into Fla states invasive policy, I haven't lived there since I left Oldsmar back in 91 (may have been 92).
Seems to me that the government, at all levels, city,co,state & fed are really behind the eightball.
Oh sugarweed, I'm thinking that potato vine is a top contender for something a tad bit stronger than just hand pulling. Eek, nasty looking thing that reminds me of Kudzu.
Well, I finally ran out of day light so I had to put the chainsaw to beddy bye until next weekend. Great idea Judy, Invasive Weed Warriors! Dyson, please start a new thread somewhere where people will be able to post lists of invasives by state. I think you might want to consider asking for the botanical names as well as the common names. This is actually a great idea. Many states are backlogged and although the scientific data is there to substantiate beyond a shadow of a doubt that a particular species is definitively invasive, the response time to actually getting that plant officially listed as noxious is less than desirable. Politics do enter the equation also as the nursery industry is extremely powerful. Sigh.
Meanwhile, I started a new thread. I titled it "What plants have you bought and stuck in your ground...
That have absolutely driven you bonkers?
what would also be helpful for me is if we had some standard definitions we are all applying the same way for the lists...like what constitutes very invasive vs invasive, or invasive vs noxious...that type of thing...that is assuming they are going to be characterized that way like the one you posted for Virginia Dyson.
Here is a picture of a first year prairie. Thrilling, isn't it? LOL! I had DH mow it today to about 2 inches high, down from about a foot high. We mowed it with the bag on the mower, since the QAL was going great guns, seed-wise. We've had a couple of hard frosts. Patience is a virtue, I keep telling myself. We'll see what comes up next spring. April
I like the rankings posted at the end of the Virginia state pdf document ie invasive, moderately invasive & occasionally invasive. But as I noted before, all levels of government
seem to be running a bit behind on this issue (at least dealing w/it) so there should be the same rateings from users concerning plants that the state has not gotten around to putting on their list yet. Such as the shade loveing ground cover the previous owners left me at this property. Hang on I'll find where I had it identified brb.
Aegopodium 'Variegata' not a bad plant and not a problem in the least, however I would have to say the it does show the possible tendency to be ocassinaly invasive depenting on conditions (it "over-runs" the borders of the bed it was planted in).
That reminds me I need to try and get an ID for the small tree in the middle of that bed. Very slow growth, will get pics tomarrow for the id forum. Sry about the rambleing.
Thanks. I am most fortunate that i have an area that I can experiment with. The next 500 SF at this point is all lawn, so it will be interesting to see what happens there. I will kill it off next summer. Install a pond and a bog. But haven't decided how to kill the lawn in that area. I will probably have to go for the Round-up method...as all I can afford is seed. Can't afford plugs! I prefer the randomness of seed, myself. April
So the second picture is what it looked like now just before it was mowed? And the second picture was taken how long after the first? The following year? Wow...can't wait to see it come spring!
Ya, that's the kind of standard I was referring too. Just some sort of definition that would be applied consistantly as to what criteria was used to determine if a plant is highly invasive, moderately invasive, or occasionally invasive. And those used on that page seem pretty good I think also. And you bring up another category that might be quite relevant: Potentially invasive.
I am taking a bow right now...
dodecatheon has decided to go for a bog because of me! I like bog people! They are so, well, boggy! Bogman, who got me infected with bogitis, calls it soggy gardening. I can't wait until she gets her first CP! I so love it when people get bit with bogitis and ponditis. It opens up an entire new world of gardening obsessions.
Just pointing out that the addition of a pond and a bog is yet another way to get rid of more lawn! Tee he!
Equilibrium - "you're gonna have ta" edit out that cuss word in your 6:15 posting... "Kudzu" (lol lol) Boy Howdy is it a cuss word down here. BUT I read an article this summer on the subject, seems sheep like it so there's hope!!
Do you have excel? I'm going to start an excell spread sheet for TX similar in format but not exactly like the VA list. After I have a few entries added I'll email it to you to be sure I'm pretty much on the same page in understanding what you are trying to do and how to best display it..
Of course we all need more obsessions. One can never have enough! It's so much fun juggling to do lists when one has a wildlife, water, bog, prairie, woodland, and a wetlands garden to care for. Did I mention I now have two indoor plants behind my kitchen sink? Toss houseplants into the new addiction category for me!
Feeling overwhelmed, we could always start a 12 step gardenoholics thread to provide support for each other. We could do like some of the narcotics anonymous folk do and sit around and exchange sources when the shrinks walk out of the room. We'd be plant junkies though. Better than heroin junkies but the money still flies out the wallet either way.
The first picture is of my first year "prairie", which I planted (seeds from Prairie Moon Nursery)Thanksgiving weekend of last year. I pretty much kept this area mowed to about 8 inches all growing season. Today, I got sick of looking at all the QAL(see the previous post and the mistake I made, LOL!) and had the DH mow it down to about 2 inches. This is what a first year prairie looks like when it's mowed! Not too exciting, LOL!
The second picture is of a former echinacea purpurea monoculture that I'm doing in plugs. Except plugs are, at the cheapest, $2.50 ea. I have 20-30 plugs of native plants in this area, about 250 sf. Keep in mind that quite a few of the plugs I grew myself, which helped keep down the cost. Compass plant, dock, monarda, verbenia stricta, Big bluestem, Little Bluestem, Bottle gentian, Prairie smoke, Indian grass, showy goldenrod, new england asters, smooth blue asters, nodding wild onion, monarda, spiderwort, Cardinal Flower, and anything else I can think of! Generally you want the ratio of flowers to grasses at about 40% flowers, 60% grasses.
I scour the native plants sales, and there are quite a few around here in the spring. I look at all the nurseries in this area..I buy when they're on sale! I also go to plant swaps whenever offered in my area. When I buy natives from a nursery, I let them all go to seed...and I help them by spreading the seed. When i go to a nursery, contrary to popular wisdom...I buy the plant that's in bloom because it's going to give me seed in the fall, hence, more plants! April
Planter, of course i have excel, several versions 97, 2000, XP for the last five years I have been running a computer business on the side specializing in small business networks. Copule of small Retail stores, Insurance & Real Estate businesses.
Excel is an very good spreadsheet program. If you take the time to learn them, there are many time saveing short-cuts available such as macros.
And speaking of puters I have one I am ½ done with I need to have ready in the morning so I will continue to watch the thread but everyone please excause me if my replies are sporatic for awhile.
caron, bogs only use rain or distilled water which you generally gather yourself by placing collection barrely under your downspouts... have a peeked your curiosity yet? Could you possibly be the newest soggy gardener? They don't take much room at all. You could even use a kiddie pool from K-Mart or WalMart to start. CAUTION... they're addictive, very addictive.
Well the web-site above has had me captivated, and is surely a gift that may not be long lived in as much as I believe this Executive Order most likely enabled it. http://www.invasivespecies.gov/laws/execorder.shtml We need to put as much of this knowledge as possible to good use while the knowledge is still available.
Oxe-eye daisy has been a weed in South Central Alaska for a long, long time. It is not native (if one can determine what that is!). They grow along the roads, in the cemetary, in the gardens of the unfortunate folks that planted them there, and they bloom all year. They do not squeeze out the native plants, to my knowledge. Some years the roadside are filled with oxe-eyes, some years the arnica takes over. The panorama varies with the type of summer we are having.
One of the concerns I have is the introduction of roadside plants by the contractors who work on our roads. They use the sprayers to glue seeds to the roadsides, and they have little or no concern for what impact these plants may have on our environment. Some of the clovers imported could choke our poor oxe-eyes out of existance!
Good morning, I haven't found Oxe-eye on the invasive list for Florida yet.
I am finding all sorts of plants I have a legal excuse to eradicate from my surroundings.
Highly visable Florida alley is first on my list. I guess a field guide to Floridas plants is in order, then noxious plants are "out of here".
I sure could find a sunny spot of secret dirt around here somewhere for some of those oxe-eyes.
(lower lip quivers)
I've started a spreadsheet for Texas invasives. There seems to be a lot more emphasis in Texas on aquatic rather than land invasives. So far I am just capturing common and scientific names and the organization that is the source for the information. I really haven't found any commonality yet with categorization such as the ones VA uses. I've found ones that have been labeled as invasive simply because they are exotic (i.e. not native) to one that you can be fined or put in jail for having and everything in between. Maybe in a couple of days we can get together and compare notes to see if and what ways we might be able to address information from different states or regions in a somewhat consistant manner.
Ok I located "the tree of heaven" in that database and right of the front page were plenty of describtions, photos, common names etc. Then out of couriosity i located the snakehead fish in the same database no pictures on the front page was disheartning so I clicked the resources and links tab at the top. There were many links to pages w/photos drawings etc. I am going to try a few more to make sure but I believe a link systen is the way to go to get the information out quickly it looks like it is all allready there. I'm gonna try a few more species.
Sounds good. My only comment regarding too much linking is that people like me might tend to get lost along the way with a lot of link hopping. I did check on of the ones on my Texas list and I did find it as invasive in Texas, but it took quite a few clicks to get to that information. I think if the target audience is gardeners who are seed or plant sharing to other locals, that there still needs to be a more user friendly way for them to easily and quickly determine all areas where a given species is invasive rather than checking each state, region, or country separately for each species.
Nevermind...scratch what I said before. Navigating that Global Invasive data base just takes a little bit of getting use to. It does look like it might all already be there. Have you figured out what it means when it says "Administrative Unit" next to a state?
The best way to search is to open the all speices list (long load even w/broadband connection) then use the edit - find on this page trick works well, I have found every invasive I have looked for so far. Except the ox-eye dasiy. I saved a copy of the list to my hard drive for faster searching.
man Dyson..stick with us here...I thought we were just doing invasive plant life...it is 1:30 in the morning and it is all I can do figure out how to find a plant in Texas right now...don't overload my brain with grey and red squirrels to boot LOL
Although ya know, given the way that DB is organized, doing a spreadsheet by state maybe isn't the way to go. Maybe the top level should be scientific name and within that all the locals where it has been reported as invasive?
If you want to parse the species up in some way, it might make more sense to go about it that way. We could each take a section of the alphabet for genus/species name and build the location list from there. Locations, Source, Occurance, Status, and Invasiveness would probably be suficient for now with a single link per species for more info, images, etc.
How did you come up with the 249 btw? I haven't been able to figure out how to come up with a single total number. It is requiring me to put at least a country in the search even if I check all for everything else and leave the species blank. For USA I get a search return of 99 for example.
if you call up the "all spiecies list" from the drop down menu that appears when your curser is over the icon (top left)
there are 249 entries. Like I said long load - i started it then went for a cup of coffee.
the 249 includes animals as well as plants. So what if for now, we divy up just the plant life forms (haven't counted up how many of the 249 that is) build a spreadsheet for Locations, Source, Occurance, Status, and Invasiveness for those, add the DB link to the detail page by species and location and use that for a starting baseline?
State by State listing should be easy in excell I've got va covered and will start a sheet for each state form their state web site how bout if you start w/tx and work west and ill concentrate on east of the missippi and we can converge the data later?
I see a single sheet with states, listed alphabeticlly top to bottom species across the top left to right and a single marker to indicate presence in the corrisponding space. but to gather the data individual sheets for each state.
there in lies the rub though...I don't think that is the case...my thinking is to strictly use the global DB for the baseline and then backfill with verification sources by state if need be...Texas has multiple organizations that handle invasives...Park and wildlife fisheries handle aquatics, TAMU (Tx Agriculture something or other) handle edible plants, and so on...I don't think their is a single all inclusive list for Texas.
ok...lets look at the primary usage for the data. Is it for someone to determine if a speicies is invasive in their home state or to determine where it is invasive if they want to export it from their home state?
Duh...nevermind...I get it now...just a basic XY axis on species and state. Ok...I can do that...but I think it would be easier for me (for Texas at least) to use the ISSG DB and just see which of the plant subset of the 249 pertain to Texas since I don't think their is a single Texas list put out by a Texas gov. org. Once the first state is done, I can just keep copying the previous spreadsheet, or better yet, just copy it to a new worksheet in the same spreadshet for each state since I think a lot of the same species will be common to most of them.
Ok Equil you have definately peaked my interest with, bogs only use rain or distilled water which you generally gather yourself by placing collection barrely under your downspouts. Collection of rainwater water here is illegal so I'd have to be creative with camo-ing a kiddie pool!! Tell me more!
I like the idea of the genus and species and then the "rating". However a few notes...
Colorado has 80+ species written into the weed law with a legal definition=noxious. The list is three sections A, B anc C species. This has nothing whatsoever to do with the level of invasiveness of the specific plant but rather the extent of infestation and trying to prioritize both time and money it would take for eradication or containing the species. List A are species are those (with a few exceptions) that are not yet found in the state, could easily migrate here but with rapid detection and treatment will be completey eradicated. List B species are widespread but not thru the entire state, eg...a few counties have big problems with Russian knapweed but the total area is small when compared to total state area. List C are those that are so widespread the control would be good if you have nothing else to deal with (like for bindweed).
Are you trying to find oxe-eye daisy on a list? It's on our "B" list.
Are you going to deal with our federally listed species? They are not generally (at least that i can find) included on state listings.
If you want help let me know especially for some of the western states.
Here is the colorado link: http://www.ag.state.co.us/DPI/weeds/statutes/weedrules.pdf
caron...for now Dyson and I have divied up the states. He is staring with east fo the Mississippi and I'm west. I think initially we want to come up with a by state invasive list as a baseline and not try to initially do any kind of A, B, C rankings on degree of invasiveness, just that it is invasive.I am starting with those those IDed at http://issg.appfa.auckland.ac.nz/database/welcome/ which includes the federal list (I think) and then verifying it against whatever state lists I can fine so thanks for the Colorado list.
I'm taking a few days to put up the clear plastic to protect my many plants. Meanwhile think about what you want for a "Invasive Weed Warrior" uniform. I see yellow and black, bee colors?? (BUT then again I didn't get much sleep last night. lol lol )
thanks for the clarification-you all were really busy last night so I didn't get to do anything but scan the newer posts, lol! Just pointing out that all lists are not always organized with degree of invasiveness in mind.
checked out that link you posted and find it very curious.
Peganum harmala is and has been a big problem in Australia and is on various lists in the US. But it's not in the database at all either under common name or scientific name for anywhere in the world!
I think a more subtle pale green shirts and or jackets with Weed Warrior Patrol emblem embroderied left of our lapels, with green slacks for our Media presentations, and then long sleeve green jumpsuits for hand to plant combat. ??? Is that better Ms Pville?
heck caron...we didn't know what we were talking about half the time last night...certainly wouldn't expect any body else to LOL
Exactly on the list organization...that's what we were finding when we started checking into different states.
I'm not sure how current that DB is. I also found a couple from Texas that are not in their DB. I'm just using it as a start point since in Texas there are multiple organizations that have responsilbity/authority for different types of invasives so using that one is a convenient baseline to build an initial list from and then do some verification. Let me know if you find others that are MIA from that DB.
When I pulled up a search on Peganum harmala, this is what the USDA database has in it. Unfortunately, this is for the U.S. only.
Noxious Weed Information:
Peganum harmala L.
This plant is listed by the U. S. federal government or a state. Common names are from state and federal lists. Click on a place name to get a complete noxious weed list for that location.
African rue, Syrian rue Prohibited noxious weed
harmel A list (noxious weeds)
African rue Noxious weed
African rue Noxious weed
African rue Class B noxious weed
African rue "A" designated weed
African rue Quarantine
I want a Weed Warrior Patrol emblem embroderied jacket.
I am thinking it is long over due that we go to Dave and ask specifically for a forum on North American Exotic Invasives to cover Identification, control, management, and eradication for any one who is interested. I am told that if 5 or more people request the forum that it gets added so here goes- http://davesgarden.com/forums/pf.php
You will have to express an interest to get that forum added by posting in it that you are game and would like to see a forum added. At least we will all be able to move ourselves out of main stream forums.
Cool links Equil! I guess I will have to research what's growing in our naturally occurring fens for this region.
I'm thinking I have the perfect area for this.
Also, why not tap water if it's from a well and there is no added stuff like flouride and chlorine??
Many a person has gathered rain water and purchased distilled water only to later learn their tap water contained no harmful minerals. Have it tested and see what elements are found in it. My water is treated. We have an iron curtain, and several other gadgets as well as water softeners and that knocks us out from being able to use our well water. Bummer. I gather rain water and I haul in bottled distilled water by the gallons.
Wow, I've been stuck on an invasive hit list for Florida and down loading my personal album to identify these by. http://www.fleppc.org/
If you live in Florida, scroll down the left menu to Capt. Good Plant. They've done alot of the work towards our goal.
I can stay busy without a drop of petro, if you know what I mean.
Very interesting forum!! As a landscape designer I deal with customers who want plants that are attractive, low maintenance and frequently 'deer proof'. Rarely do I get a customer who understands the importance of using native plants.
It is frustrating to work in a business where few nurseries deal in native plants and fewer landscape contractors are willing to plant them. When you find a contractor who is willing to plant natives, then the challenge becomes finding customers who understand the value of native landscpaing.
As a new member to DG, I have not done any trading yet. Traders could start with offering trades to members who reside in the plant's native range. It would be a start.
As many above have stated, education is the key to change.
Welcome to you Secludedgardens. If you are sincerely interested in a forum such as the one I recommended, please go on over and post that you would be interested as I was sort of thinking it would be great too and it appears to be getting shot down by a few gardeners! Here's the link- http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/468765/
I have to admit that I giggled to myself when I saw a post on burning bushes over in Garden Foes. Tee he, burning bushes ARE the foe. I was thinking to myself that I saw nothing in that thread that a good acetylene torch wouldn't take care of post haste. I don't think that was the type of help that poster was looking for though. Ugh, I had 12 fully mature and fruiting burning bushes planted here 5 years ago. The landscaping firm we hired to "help us out" over here suggested the first 10 because they "would really make a statement in my front yard". I liked them so much that I bought 2 more. Oh they really made a statement in my front yard over the next few years. They also made a statement in my neighbors' yards and I ended up with a note in my mailbox. I also ended up removing and burning all of mine last fall and then I had to go out and seek out the little seedlings in my woodlands that were continuing to make a statement on my property. The seedlings were easy to spot because of their brilliant red fall foliage.Will wonders never cease! I had at least 50 seedlings in under 4 years. I did a little research on Euonymous alata and oh boy was I hopping mad. The landscaper came over to check on his plantings (he had alsosold me the Bradford Pears and Russian Olives planted here) and I took it upon myself to ask him why he had selected burning bushes for me. His comment was that they weren't against the law yet in Illinois. I originally selected him as he indicated he would select appropriate plants for my yard. He never said word one about those burning bushes yet he knew. Turns out there was a fire sale on them so to speak. Nurseries are dumping them off around here in anticipation of the Governor adding them to the list of noxious weeds because of their "undesirable" characteristics and the clean up costs. Oh well, live and learn. That landscaper's contract was terminated and I lost hundreds and hundreds of dollars that could have been spent purchasing appropriate shrubs that I wouldn't have to remove such as Fothergilla.
You said this. "It is frustrating to work in a business where few nurseries deal in native plants and fewer landscape contractors are willing to plant them." Do you have any idea how frustrating it is for a homeowner new to gardening to have to deal in that environment? I was about ready to pull my hair out. The same landscaper had recommended purple loosestrife to me. I am thankful right about now that I didn't have money left over to buy any from him right about now as I would have at the time. There are countless nurseries around me now specializing in native plants so I am very lucky. There are also countless nurseries on line specializing in natives. Their numbers have grown dramatically in just the past few years since I started gardening. I like the looks of native plants myself personally but I didn't know they were out there and available until I began running into people like you.
Keep up the good work with your customers! They'll most assuredly thank you some day.
Hi Secluded and welcome. I sure wish your had been the landscaper when my house was first built (I was not the original owner but bought it about 2 years after it had been built). Ten years later I am still fighting with invasives that were put down buy the builder because they were fast growers and easily available and highly adaptable...i.e. invasive!
Howdy, well, I might go into Un-Landscaping and "Plant Management". This of course would enable me to trim back good plants, (Shuuu) and remove bad plants. It would feed my "Where can I plant that?" compulsion with new secret dirt and Native goodies. Florida has plenty.
Equilibrium: So sorry to hear about your landscaping dilema. Unfortunately this is common place in the industry. As an independent landscape designer my preference is working directly with customers. When hired by the customer, I am able to design gardens to meet the customers needs as well as proper environmental conditions. However, until my business expands (and I can comfortably afford to pay my mortgage) I will have to continue to take on projects referred to me by contractors. The contractors I work with are good people and do quality work but don't necessarily have the same committment to plant selection that I do. There are many reasons that contractors choose non-native or invasive plants. 1) These plants are available at more nurseries than their native counterparts; 2) Invasive plants are easier to propagate, therefore increasing availibility and decreasing the price; 3) Customers are looking for landscapes that look 'mature' upon installation and many of the less desirable plants are faster growing. This means a contractor can install larger plant sizes for a lower cost. In the last two years I have had only 2 customers who were interesed in using native plants. 4) Customers are usually looking at price for the deciding factor when hiring a landscape contractor to install the project. If I spec. a single trunk White Fringetree and the contractor can save the customer $200 by substituting a 'Bradford' Pear in 99% of the cases it's a no-brainer!; 5) Contractors lose a lot of money on plant warranties...needless to say they want to plant something that is going to survive!!!
Sorry...I know that was long. If I want to get work from contractors (which I do), then I need to strike a balance between plants that are available & contractors are willing to use, and plants that I feel can meet the design objective and be controlled. Contractors will tell me something is a great tree but is too expensive to purchase and too slow growing for customers to appreciate. Contractors are driven by the market (customers). Obviously anyone on this website is different from they typical landscape design customer. Everyone here has a love of plants and at least the desire to learn about plants. Unfortunately most DG members would not hire a landscape designer because they are gardeners themselves!
Glad to hear you planted Fothergilla...it's a great 4 season plant (good form, fragrant white flowers in spring and excellent fall color). Some native plants I love and never use on designs because of availability problems etc. are: Oxydendron arboreum (Sourwood), Enkianthus campanulatus (Redvein Enkianthus) & Kalmia latifolia (Mountainlaurel)
Hopefully gardener to gardener and then outward we can spread the message! (please excuse my spelling...not used to being without my spell check!!)
Yup, you just about summed up what happened by me. Bradfords are a swear word around here because of the incredible nightmare they create for insurance companies when they start self disintegrating at about 12-15 years long after the contractors have pulled off the job and left the homeowners to their own devices. You should see the people upset around here when their Caleryanas go down and take a chunk of their homes or their cars with them. Not happy campers. These trees grow fast and their lives end fast. I had no idea there were so many issues with that tree and I can't believe that landscaper planted one 10' from my family room plate glass windows. I am replacing it with a Kentucky Coffeetree. A suggestion from a member who is here in these forums. That Mt Laurel is a plant I have been trying to get my hands on in a white flowering form to replace the white mulberries I took out. Where do I get that plant? Great suggestion. Thank you very much for that one and I am hoping you know a good online source as that white flowering Mt Laurel has alluded me for a while. I am also looking for white bud. Nobody up here growing those two or the American Yellowwood I need to replace the Russian and Autumn Olives that were taken out.
I know what you mean about customers. I sure as heck got what I asked for to a certain degree. I didn't know any better at the time as I never anticipated a change in guard around here with the homeowners association being turned over to the homeowners and a few unreasonable people getting into positions of authority.
Nope, I ordered the Fothergillas and won't receive them until next spring. I replaced the others with an assortment of viburnums and a host of other really attractive flowering shrubs. Ninebark comes to mind as well as that really nice flowering New Jesey Tea. Both suggestions from other gardeners right here in my area. I did my best but would have loved to have been able to get my hands on mature Fothergillas.
I am not familiar with this at all- Enkianthus campanulatus (Redvein Enkianthus). Tell me about that plant please.
Wow...can't believe I forgot Yellowwood! Such a beautiful native tree and seldom planted! Contractors in my area don't use it because it is weak-wooded and short lived, also not readily available. If I could have a tree like Yellowwood for even 10 years, I would consider myself lucky!!!
Enkianthus is a beautiful narrow upright deciduous shrub. Habit is rather open and loose, growing 12-18' tall by 10-15' wide at maturity. This shrub is EXTREMELY slow growing. I think this is one of the main reasons it is not popular in landscaping. However, if you love dainty plants and appreciate natives, this is a wonderful shrub/small tree. Multi-stemmed or low branching, whorled leaves, layering effect, slow growing, off-white bell shapped flowers w/red veins in May or June, bright red fall foliage, nice winter form. We planted one at my parent's home about 10 years ago and I would guess it has grown maybe 2'. So it you are looking for a good small upright near a patio where you can see and appreciate the flowers please consider Enkianthus. Grows in zones 4-7 loving acid soils in full sun to part shade (maybe the deep shade accounts for the slow growth we have seen with our specimen).
"Participation in the Weeds Gone Wild project is open to anyone interested in getting involved and includes federal, State, and local government agencies, non-governmental organizations, universities, private firms and individuals. If you are interested in writing a fact sheet or otherwise helping with this project, please write to: Jil Swearingen, Chair, Alien Plant Working Group, 4598 MacArthur Blvd., NW, Washington, DC 20007, or send an e-mail message. To find out which plant species are in need of fact sheet authors, please check the Scientific Names list in the Plant Lists section. "
Hi Dyson, Mt Laurel is supposedly difficult to start from cuttings. I tried, friends tried, everybody tried and everybody failed. Not that this is saying much mind you as you have to consider the skill set of those who were trying but we all literally coddled these cuttings with and without hormones and zip nadda zilch nothing! I am thinking that we did something wrong but what that something was is beyond me. I was able to get seed to germinate though. If you have little seedlings, they transplant well. I just can't get my hands on the white flowering Kalmias and it isn't for lack of trying. Tell me you have a white flowering Kalmia! If you do, may I please have some seed next year?
Hi Secludedgardens, Are we both talking about the same tree... Cladrastis kentuckea? It has a relatively slow growth rate and I was always under the impression its wood was strong. It rarely exceeds 70' but has a very nice spread of around 45'. It's a tree that was used around here for buffer zones for many years until it became scarce. I know it isn't particularly tolerant of pollution and I know it likes well drained soils. Under cultivation, the tree is allegedly not only hardy but healthy. It is not prone to any common insects or diseases which is desirable in and of itself as this prolongs its life span. I was led to believe that these trees needed basic corrective pruning when young to avoid weak branch forks later on down the line. I thought the name Cladrastis meant "brittle branch" because of this. The only actual issue I heard about this tree was that it has thin bark so lots of kids like to carve in it which could leave it vulnerable to pathogens so I was told to keep the kids and pocket knives away from the trees. There are many specimens of this tree supposedly planted decades ago at universities throughout the midwest that are not only surviving but thriving. I loaned my Dirr's to somebody and I can't remember who has it and now you've got me somewhat concerned as I ordered 3 B&Bs of this tree for delivery next spring. What is your experience with this tree in your region? I thought I did my leg work on this beauty before I placed my order but now I am kicking myself for not remembering who has my Dirr's. I need my darn book back as I wanna look up your Enkianthus campanulatus too! Let me know please why you are stating the Yellowwood has only has a 10 year lifespan. I'm hoping you were referring to a foundation lifespan but even that should easily be 25 years. Please get back to me if you were. Thanks!
Are you talking about Texas Mountain Laurel Sophora secundiflora? They are somewhat difficult to establish initially and are some what slow growers. I use to have 2 but lost one to cotton rot last summer :-( Here is my remaining one.
Equil -There are (were) some white flowering laurel across the creek from my mothers house at the cabin (haven't been to the cabin in years). I will try to get over there next week end and see what kind of shape they are in. - Dyson
If what you have is Kalmia latifolia they can be propagated by seeds or cuttings.
I know the Texas Mountain Laurel does not like being transplanted and typically takes a long time to recover from a transplate if it does at all, but not sure if that is true for the ones you have there.
Dirr's comments on Cladrastis kentukea (lutea):
30-50' x 40-55' spread; zones 4-8; medium rate of growth; prune only in summer or tree will bleed profusely (winter or spring pruning); often develops bad crotches which can split or crack in storms; supposedly can fix atmospheric nitrogen; transplant b&b into well drained soil; tolerates high pH soils and acid situations, native on limestone cliffs and ridges; full sun; very few problems w/this tree; excellent tree for flowers and foliage; choice shade tree for smaller properties...(nothing else negative)
Most contractors in my area are hesitant to use it because of the breakage around here and their responsibility of plant warranties. I didn't mean it only had a ten year life exp. only that if it broke up in just 10 short years, I still think the tree would be worth having. Sorry to mislead you!!!
There's just so much in this thread-but wanted to let everyone know since it was mentioned previously...
on or around Oct 30, President Bush signed SB144, Noxious Weed Control Act of 2004.
However, there are no appropriations for the bill as of yet.
Somebody else had a Dirr's too thank goodness. I need my Dirr's!
The USDA site states it is a long lived tree.
I see what you mean about contractors being hesitant to use it as it does require some pruning when young to thwart off issues you mentioned. It is my understanding that if this tree is pruned properly, future issues will be next to nothingness. What do I know... I haven't even received mine yet!
Thanks for getting back to me, I am not canceling my order! I was starting to think these were self destructing trees like the Bradfords.
Sugarweed...let not your lower lip quiver. I have ox-eye daisies in my little prairie. They're no problem there...shallow root systems, small leaves. They aren't shading or crowding anything out. And I have seen it at the roadside. Yes, lots of daisies...BUT and a big BUT, lots of natives, too. April
Welcome and thank you! I would be happy to send you some photos of my back yard...but right now...it's kind of dead, LOL! We've had a couple of hard frosts. It's in progress...I plan to add more native woodland plants, and a bog and a pond. Can't decide whether I want a peat bog, or a calcareous fen. Sorry to be such a geek, LOL! We have both in this area. I will go with what is most endangered in this area, which is probably the fen. I will be enlarging the woodland garden next weekend, by scooping off the sod. I will be enlarging the little prairie next spring, via Round-up of the existing kentucky bluegrass. I don't have the time to or money to go with the more organic methods, I'm afraid. Wish I did.
I love plants that are bright red, hence my love of silene regia, lobelia cardinalis, fire pinks. I'm trying to attract humming birds, and especially, rare moths and butterflies. I have bright red monardas and morning glories in my front yard! (where the non-natives dwell) It's all about the nectar...well, and host plants. I keep intending to plant some spicebush, but I have really small suburban lot. If I had more land, believe me, more trees and shrubs would be going in! I really loved the Enkiansis (sp?). It's not native to my area, so I wouldn't plant it, but it's very lovely! Wish I lived in an area where I could plant it. I must take credit for Equil's devotion to Fothergilla, by the way, LOL!
I will look for some photos of my back yard last spring...but, really, spring ephemerals are kind of about being subtle. Unless we're talking masses of mertensia! Which, sadly, I don't have, as I have dry (silver maple)shade. April
dode, well, I've cheked the USDA 's list and Oxe-eye daisy, Luecanthemum Vulgare Lam., is imported, but not considered Invasive or Nauseous in Florida, so I am still wanting some seeds.
This desire was really bugging my conscience, so I decided to let the list answer this ethical issue for me.
Sugarweed, perhaps your climate is too hot for oxe-eye to thrive. After all, the definition of a weed is 'any plant that grows where you don't want it it.' I think it is the responsibility of the person who plants seed to determine if it is a hazard to the environment in their area. If you don't see oxe-eye daisy in the wild where you are, it may not even do well in cultivation.
Weeze, you are very possibly right. I am in North Florida, but it may still be too warm here as it is for some of my other favorites like lilacs.
I haven't really had the time here that I had in years past. If I can get this retirement thing down, I'll travel those ole roads less trod again.
You may be right. However, we do have this native one, a photo obtained from the USDA site.
I still like the white oxeyes too. I have also addressed this question at: http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/469196/
It is pretty, and i only wonder what the dimensions of these are, I have tiny daisy like weeds I have zoomed in on and they look big, so I don't really know any more or possibly as much about this plant as you do.
Just to let everyone know that has been posting to this thread, Terry has offered to move it to the Garden Foes forum which has become the home forum for invasives and I have asked her to go ahead with that.
Hey folks, sorta dis-heartened at this point? Yes that plant is beautiful in bloom, I know it is not supposed to survive our winter temps, you are putting it in a pond less than four yards from the lake?
When I recently ask if a place for "Native Habitat" could be added to the PDB, I got this answer from NOT the administration I expected, but an Uber.
This is the response:
"We have given a lot of thought regarding an origin/nativity of a
plant on several occasions, we came to the conclusion that it will be
practically impossible to do. Our reasons are that very few plants are
confined to one country/regions and humans have moved about a lot and
taken their plants with them so despite some headway in acheological
botany we simply cannot say what is truely native to where for quite
a number of plants.
One of our biggest problems even if we are to take the broad stance
that XXXX is found in the wild in XXXX regardless of nativity or
naturalising, we cannot present the options in a simple manner, we
either need to be very specific and include minute regions which
would make the list impossibly long or conversely the spectrum would
be far too broad as to make it nonsensical."
I realize, this is not something that could be done overnite, but to call it nonsensical. I am beside myself. All it would take is a line or two. We don't see many of the spaces filled in on the PDB as it is. The drive for size has passed the desire for completeness.
Naturalized is not native.
The Uber went on to add this should be put in comments, well that's another needle in a haystack to find.
I am very dissappointed in this flippant attitude!
Why not open your own website to post the information that is so important for you to get it out?
I dont recall when i signed up on Daves reading anything that said the admin had to agree with everything i said or give me all the forums i wanted.
Any other site would have nipped this in the bud way long ago, but not here. Problem is is that you guys keep going and going.
Typical socieity tho, i'm unhappy, its your fault, i'm gonna moan but not do anything about it.
Native range is actually quite easily discerned for the vast majority of plants. Yes, the scientific community does argue from time to time about origin on a few species here and there but they generally can narrow it down to at least the same continent. This is the exact type of information that should be out there for people to easily access. The PDB is a quick reference. Providing space to add the native range of a plant makes sense to me but what do I know any more. The exclusion of information on origin seems sort of counter productive given the scope and intent of the PDB. You might want to let the administration know about this as it seems inconsistent with their sincere desire to grow the Database to attract future subscribers. Seriously, probably just an oversight. This site is constantly evolving and I'm sure they'd welcome your input.
Ooops, walked away before posting and now see comments from MSjen.Is In looking at the post that I responded to, I was led to believe that the comments to nix the addition of native range of a plant were made by another subscriber not the Administration. I apologize for commenting if the addition of native plant range to the Database was already hashed around and nixed by the Administration. I'm sure they had valid reasons for doing so that we may not fully comprehend.
And, was this thread entirely moved over to Garden Foes from somewhere else or is this my imagination?
I guess I'm confused as to why people who do not care for the subject or the length of it feel compelled to comment? I would never go to another forum and post against something I simply didn't care about...If the interest is stopping traffic on the post then why comment further??
Sugarweed, I'm sorry you saw my comment as out of hand and perhaps I should have explained more. Your complaint seems to be centred on this paragraph
"One of our biggest problems even if we are to take the broad stance
that XXXX is found in the wild in XXXX regardless of nativity or
naturalising, we cannot present the options in a simple manner, we
either need to be very specific and include minute regions which
would make the list impossibly long or conversely the spectrum would
be far too broad as to make it nonsensical."
My meaning being that if we were to have a list with such a broad spectrum like N.W China, S.W. France (which would still be a long list) or even simply just continents then we aren't giving full information on the climate and type of soil that a more specific region listing would give, but to get into specifics would mean that the list would be way too long to fit into the PDB and we would need to allow multiple choice.
"Naturalized is not native."
Something of which I am fully aware, however, non native, invasive and non invasive plants are long natrualised in some regions and are even considered native in some cases where they are not, some plants are even found in more abundance in regions where they are naturalised for a whole number of reasons.
"The Uber went on to add this should be put in comments, well that's another needle in a haystack to find."
It seems to me that comments appear to be a fruitless excersize to some members, perhaps if comments were searchable (and that's a question for Dave) it would be helpful?
Nativity of plants in the US might be easier, and I think you mentioned this a little while back in one of the threads (The Dames Rocket one?) in Wild Plants. However, in Europe, North Africa and Asia, this is, in my belief, not the case due to trade and movement of people. I am always willing to be proved wrong and would welcome more information on plants that originate from the old world countries and their nativity. Not just to continents though as I really don't feel that it's helpful to know that something comes from Africa, it provides a very small amount of information and tells me very little about the plant itself, now Equatorial East Africa is a bit more helpful :)
While in our last discussion I wasn't speaking as a DG Admin (because I'm not), I am a PDB Admin, hence my access to the PDB helpdesk, and as such was trying to convey our findings from similar discussions on forum (most recent was in August 2004) not 'nix' anything out of hand. We are always open to suggestions for improvement even if we don't always take them up.
I, too, am also interested in it. Someone posted a link recently about invasives. enature or something? I did the search for my state and found a couple of ones that i didnt know were invasive. Guess what i'll be doing today.
I'm all for saving our planet and i really am interested in this topic.It kills me to go to the horse arena and see the kudzu taking over the tree line.
I come to this thread and the other ones like it because i want to know about the invasive that i didnt know about before. There is a lot of info available that would be so much more effective if it was centralized in one place.
Really, all i was trying to say is that if this info was not going to be put on the PDB, then maybe someone with website knowledge could design a website for it. That is NOT telling someone to go away. Just simply stating that if the info is not put on DG, its still important enough to be put somewhere else.
I found the eNature.com link to be VERY helpful. It gives both invasives and natives by state. It appears that website is provided by the National Wildlife Federation...what better organization to provide that info. Further, if I'm not mistaken it also provided native animals as well.
Well needless to say if I've stepped on anybody's toes. I totally disagree and have had my feelings trompled for thinking this is a vital part of any PDB. But everyone is right. I will keep a dozen or more sites to fall back on for this one detail.
It might be time to reconsider "Native Habitat" if it keeps being suggested regularly.
I am still interested in Baa's comment made in one of these threads recently "everone knows Bellis perennis is ruining the ecology in Texas". I have looked, (in that dozen other sites) and can't find reference as to what she was talking about. Because of this, my opinion of Baa's opinions is a little shaky. I'm from Texas and I still feel protective of her.
I would not have asked her opinion on this, But I did without knowing it.
I didn't realize Ubers were considered administration. I am sorry.
A few comments on the eNature site:
The eNature information overall is very good and very helpfull. However, for Colorado all the plants listed are invasive/agressive AND not all of them are on the official state noxious weed list. I do not know about any other state. If you are looking for general invasiveness then fine but if you are looking for state listed weeds for Colorado, the info is not accurate (we only have 86-not 112). I have not had time to cross reference to see if each noxious species in included...
This site's native plant list are only "garden plants"...there are more than quite a few natives not on the list judging from the cactus section alone.
Same deal for Illinois as pertains to eNature's information but a web site is only as good as those backing it. They do their best to keep it updated however like anything else, allocating the resources to keep it going is an ongoing issue. That was sort of the reason why I like the forum approach here. Many people can leave comments and 5 or 6 heads are always better than 1 or 2.
Hi Baa, I have read your comments to me. Thank you for sharing them with me.
The Daisy I was referring to in the other thread was Bellis vesanus, it's a made up name off the top of my head, I chose that for neutrality and not in anyway to try and confuse anyone, I'm sorry that it achieved the opposite aim to the intention.
Ubers aren't all administrators in the PDB, aside from Dave, Trish and Terry there are 3 others, Poppysue, Mystic and myself, I've been on PDB admin for a couple of years or so but it's not something that everyone will know. You are entitled to your view on my experience and opinions and I will pass on your report to my collegues so they may give you their opinion and address the concerns about my conduct and abilities you have expressed here.
Baa, so sorry this led me astray, being less educated and knocked off base by that "English wit being drier than a Texas wind", I understand now and you have my respect back. We are a little befuddled on this side of the pond.
Sugarweed, perhaps a case of things being lost in the translation *G* my education was abysmal but I have parents with a good sense of puns and silly words, Bellis vesanus translates to Crazy daisy, I really didn't think anyone would look it up, my fault for assuming!