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Invasive Plants: The buddleia has to go, doesn't it?

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MaryMD7
Chesapeake Beach, MD

March 3, 2006
7:37 PM

Post #2084280

I planted it before I knew better and I deadhead, but I know it's bad and it should go. It's almost time for the late winter pruning. I could use y'all's encouragement to do it with a shovel rather than a shears.
Soferdig
Kalispell, MT
(Zone 4b)

March 3, 2006
7:44 PM

Post #2084291

Boy why! I did not know Buddleia was invasive anywhere. Here it just grows and grows in the same spot. SAVE THE BUTTERFLY BUSH!
DanaDW
Pahrump, NV
(Zone 8a)

March 3, 2006
7:46 PM

Post #2084294

Interesting. First time I've heard buddleia dissed. Though I've noticed that at least half the plants that are being called invasive here you could not even grow where I live. Several that are constantly warned against are actually sold by our extension service and are recommended in and by the state of Nevada.

Guess it all depends on where you live.
MaryMD7
Chesapeake Beach, MD

March 3, 2006
7:48 PM

Post #2084299

Oh b. davidii is invasive in many parts of the U.S. It's also one of the top invasive weeds in the U.K. Remember that invasiveness does not necessarily have anything to do with what it does in your garden. Invasive plants aren't necessarily garden thugs. And don't necessarily trust state agencies. For years, state highway departments would plant rosa multiflora and autumn olive -- plants that are now thugs being battled by ag and natural resources agencies in those same states.
DanaDW
Pahrump, NV
(Zone 8a)

March 3, 2006
8:07 PM

Post #2084346

No, it has to do with if it can escape into the wild and displace native flora & fauna, destroy habitat, etc. Very few things are capable of doing that here.

Buddleia most definitely can not survive here without assistance. Nor can the oh-so-dreaded mimosas. Good luck even attempting to grow something like loosestrife, ain't gonna happen. Foxglove? Sure, if you want to stand over it with a hose all day.

The world-eating evening primrose makes a lovely garden plant here...with care and protection from rabbits and chipmunks. Left out to it's own devices it is either eaten to death or dies of dehydration...as is nearly anything else.



This message was edited Mar 3, 2006 1:19 PM
Equilibrium

March 3, 2006
8:22 PM

Post #2084372

Hey MaryMD7, I planted many things before I knew better and my MIL "gifts" me plants that are trouble. Don't beat yourself up over it, big deal. Here's what I arranged that might interest you. I have some plants in up tight around my house. Either I deadhead them or sometimes my neighbor comes over and deadheads them when she's got time during the day. Yes, I know... but my neighbor is into wildlife and she likes to poke around over here so she wanders over and I can always tell when she's been over because plants will have been noticeably deadheaded. Anyway, I walked around and pointed out to my husband exactly which plants to dig up if I got struck by lightening tomorrow and I e-mailed photos to my best friend and she promised she'd send her gardener (must be nice) over here if I died tomorrow in a car accident. I don't have many that are exotic and aggressive but I do have a few in this courtyard type deal by my front doors. And, I have one Bradford Pear left that is an exotic invasive species like the Butterfly Bush that Vic promised me would be first on her hit list because she knows my husband likes it and wanted to keep it for just a few more years. I'm covered if I croak because either Maria or Vic would get over here and remove that Bradford as well as a few others and I know they would follow through because it's important to me. They also know my husband would never deadhead any of them because the biggest problem child plants over here were gifts to me from his Mother. That being said, I make a few of her "gifts" go to plant heaven every year that I feel I can nuke them without getting caught. A little spritz here, a little spritz there, here a spritz, there a spritz, everywhere a spritz spritz. I used to feel guilty because her heart is in the right place but after she bought me "different" Burning Bushes when she knew I had removed 12 of them from here, I lost all pangs of guilt. I love my MIL dearly but she only buys roses and garbage plants for me and I can't get her to quit "gifting" me. And, she bought me 2 Humming Bird Bushes (Butterfly Bushes) to flank an arbor once. Great for Humming Birds she told me as she pointed to the tag with the cute little Ruby Throated Hummer on it.

You seem torn up over the Butterfly Bush you have. Maybe you could tie a ribbon on your Butterfly Bush and let your husband know that if you die, he is to remove it and then keep deadheading it and enjoy it where it is. Just a thought.

Best wishes to you. Welcome to DG too, I clicked on your user name and noticed you were new.

This message was edited Nov 16, 2006 11:00 PM
Calalily
Deep South Coastal, TX
(Zone 10a)

March 4, 2006
3:32 AM

Post #2085222

Dana, same here! Buddleia, mimosa, foxglove, loostrife...those barely survive in gardens and don't stand a chance in the wild. Oenothera is native here and the pink ones are pesky in the garden.
Clerodendron bungeii, C.philippinum and potato vine(the one with the big potatoes) won't live even in gardens!
escambiaguy
Atmore, AL
(Zone 8b)

March 4, 2006
4:54 AM

Post #2085321

I disagree with the comment about mimosa, it does survive without any assistance around here. I have some growing right across the road from my house by the railroad tracks. It is very invasive. But back to the Butterfly bush...
Equilibrium

March 4, 2006
5:30 PM

Post #2086209

Pahrump Nevada is a hop skip and a jump from Spring Mountain National Recreation Area, Carpenter Canyon, Trout Canyon and Wheeler Pass. Several issues exist in those areas already- http://www.library.unr.edu/subjects/guides/range/invasivespecies.html
I had to look on a map for Bayview and found that down in Cameron County. Texans have several issues too- http://fireant.tamu.edu/antfacts/pdf/texas1.pdf#search='Texas invasive species'
“Once a species is moved to a new ecosystem, it must find a suitable niche to become invasive.” The sad reality is that both Texas and Nevada have incredibly diverse terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems. Toss other factors into the mix such as those cited in the above PDF- “urban sprawl, already stressed ecosystems, and the overuse of chemicals” and the odds of an exotic invasive species getting a foothold increase dramatically. The fact remains that a small percentage of exotic invasive plants are escaping to more hospitable ecosystems where they are colonizing as a result of having been planted in seemingly inhospitable environments. Many exotic invasive species are polyploidy. That’s a big time adaptive trait of noxious weeds that can be hashed around another time but these plants can and do mutate (many are now fire adaptive and chemical resistant thanks to gene mutations). Another lovely adaptive trait shared by many of these plants is their ability to set seed. One Purple Loosestrife plant can pump out over a million seeds. Here’s what’s interesting, many stressed plants can and will redirect all of their energies to seed production to ensure their survival. It is as if they know they are dying and are going for that final push before they are exhausted to perpetuate their species. Unfortunately, there are people who lovingly nurture and water these plants in desert regions. Once that plant sets seed; wind, water, and critters help disperse it. So while it is true that many ecosystems will be inhospitable to an exotic invasive species, given all that we know regarding seed dispersal is it really prudent to continue promoting the worst of the worst plants being that the next County over by bird’s flight might not be as inhospitable? http://www.issg.org/
Quoting:Buddleia most definitely can not survive here without assistance. Nor can the oh-so-dreaded mimosas. Good luck even attempting to grow something like loosestrife, ain't gonna happen. Foxglove? Sure, if you want to stand over it with a hose all day.
Buddleja lindleyana, Buddleja davidii, as well as other Buddleja spp. are getting all the assistance they need to not only survive but thrive because we Americans have a fascination with all that is exotic. There are people willing to stand over them with a hose all day and they are doing just that which in part is why the maps provided by the Feds show them as having naturalized- http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=BUDDL2 and that Mimosa Tree has naturalized too- http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ALBIZ
Quoting: Buddleia, mimosa, foxglove, loostrife...those barely survive in gardens and don't stand a chance in the wild
They can and do survive in the wild because good intentioned people repeatedly underestimate a pathetically feeble weakly looking plant’s ability to reproduce by setting seed that ends up in hospitable ecosystems. One thing is for certain, there is a lag factor associated with these maps. As time goes on and data regarding naturalization of some of the worst of the worst species becomes available, the area of the maps infested will expand. Please know that I'm not singling you two out by quoting you, your sentiments were so representative of my own personal belief system from 10 years ago that it was uncanny.

Ecosystems change but we humans are accelerating that change and when we unwittingly choose to stand over a plant with a hose (I've done this), the unlikely can occur. I don’t believe it to be unreasonable to express concern regarding the impact of exotic invasive species. Fear of invasive species is not misguided once we learn more about their impact.

http://www.issues.org/13.4/schmit.htm

I truly believe in this statement, “The tendency of man’s nature to good is like the tendency of water to flow downward” –Meng Tse
It is for this reason that I would be a proponent of a non-regulatory approach to these issues in which educating the public is pushed to the forefront so that these very complex issues can be discussed without all the polarization of sides. We all call this planet home.
http://www.brown.edu/Research/EnvStudies_Theses/full9900/mhall/IPlants/Non-Regulatory.html
DanaDW
Pahrump, NV
(Zone 8a)

March 4, 2006
9:14 PM

Post #2086618

I don't grow anything on our list of invasives, in fact several were on my property initially and they have all been removed. Notice our list is quite different overall than in many places.

Spring Mountain- I'm very much afraid is going to be destroyed without any assistance from gardeners. They are currently planning to turn it into a major tourist attraction complete with paved roads and RV camping areas. I'd go see it now if interested, much will be gone or altered within the next 2 years.

You missed the preserve in the Amargosa valley which has been incorporated into the Death Valley national park system. That one may go the way of the dinosaur should the Yucca Mountain project get the green light...can you say groundwater contamination?

You will notice that per the USDA maps mimosas do not exist anywhere in the state. On the other hand they also claim some things do not exist here which do, and others are here which are not. Frankly, people here are not great fans of the federal anything...Mr. Cheney's recent speech in which he refers to our geographic location, and I quote, "is unpopulated, barren and lacking in natural resources". Pretty much sums up the treatment we've come to expect.

I will now return to my unpopulated, barren, resourceless, rabbithole and go feed some Gambel's Quail (which incidentally I'd wish you best of luck trying to shoot from a roadside LOL).



This message was edited Mar 4, 2006 2:49 PM
sugarweed
Jacksonville & Okeec, FL
(Zone 9a)

March 5, 2006
2:15 PM

Post #2088154

Calalilly, Please don't think these things that you listed won't grow there in Bayview.
That nasty potatoe vine may not grow in your yard, but I guarantee it will grow where you don't want it. There is a beautiful 40 foot circle of Indigenous Azeleas acrosss the street. Are they loaded with beautiful bright purple blooms? No!
They are strangled with air potato and southern brambles. I found a gift of a potato beween two fence wires in my yard and told the "gifter" to never return to my property again.
Please be grateful for what God gave Texas and don't encourage these terrible Bullies.
Sidney
Calalily
Deep South Coastal, TX
(Zone 10a)

March 5, 2006
2:49 PM

Post #2088237

I planted an air potato two years ago, the first year it got about a foot tall. It is dead. I have not seen any here anywhere, but the strangler vines(milkweed family), love in a puff, old man's beard and other vines are pests to me. The tamarisk tree and cottonwood/tallow tree(popcorn) are bad. I pull up seedlings all the time from my neighbor's tree(that she won't cut down even though she knows it is a trash tree). Nurseries sell tallow trees and tamarisk trees.
There are no buddleias here, they will not grow, but an out of place native plant has completely ruined hundreds of wetland acres in Olmito. It is now a baren swamp full of morning glory bush(ipomoea carnea).
Water hyacinth costs the water district thousands of dollars to remove and they are still losing the battle. Some idiot intentionally planted water lilies in the Bayview water district resacas and they can't get rid of them because any little piece of tuber grows a new lily. They suspect a nursery owner, but can't prove it.
Someone brought in diseased coconut palms and caused a virus in our native palms, and almost wiped them out. The fire ants have disturbed our native ants causing a decline in the horned toad/lizard population(horned toads eat harvester ants almost exclusively).
All I was saying is that things that cause problems in one area, aren't a problem all over the country. I have not seen one single mimosa plant here...and my job takes me all over the county. I know water hyacinths are not a problem in areas where temperatures go below freezing, but they are horrible here. If I see a foxglove growing anywhere, I'll let you know!
sugarweed
Jacksonville & Okeec, FL
(Zone 9a)

March 5, 2006
2:59 PM

Post #2088259

They do get my dander up for sure. Am thinking of trecking to Texas RU, as I'm a native and like to hear my native tongue every now and then.
Sidney
Calalily
Deep South Coastal, TX
(Zone 10a)

March 5, 2006
3:09 PM

Post #2088272

Sidney, I know what you mean! When I see the tallow trees for sale in Home Depot(and other nurseries) it really irritates me. And don't even get me started on castor beans!
I was at a man's house and he had illegally imported coconut palms from PR. He didn't know if they had a virus, probably didn't care. He just wanted his coconut trees.

ViburnumValley

ViburnumValley
Scott County, KY
(Zone 5b)

March 5, 2006
3:24 PM

Post #2088300

Calalily and DanaDW:

By your statements you are making the overall point of others debating here. Just because a plant is well-behaved or struggles to survive for you, doesn't mean you shouldn't consider that it IS invasive (or potentially so) elsewhere. The "you" is generic; it applies to anyone, not specific posters here.

You've probably already read this thread (see contributions), but others reading here may not have:

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/575124/

What I'm getting at is: use of plants that are known invasives (especially in their region), especially by those that KNOW of the problem, sets examples for those who know nothing about the issue, or worse, for those who wish to not be inconvenienced with any semblance of conscience about growing/distributing these problem plants.

People read about plants, people want plants, people trade plants. That's how things move from relative harmlessness to ecological extirpators.

The postings above reflect quite a deep understanding of the issues and definitions of terms. Use of plants that are known problems elsewhere, maybe unwittingly, gives tacit support to the actions of criminals who would plant invasive species in a municipal water supply. I can imagine the statements in defense of the action:

•It didn't grow like that in my yard
•It always died in my flower bed
•I couldn't grow it well enough to make any money (so now I'll get paid to harvest/remove it from the resacas, resell it, and make money coming and going

I'm not looking to harp on anyone's previous statements, only drawing a parallel.

I don't expect to change any entrenched opinions, but if one or two see some value in this position, there'll be that many fewer potential problems for posterity.
escambiaguy
Atmore, AL
(Zone 8b)

March 5, 2006
4:56 PM

Post #2088518

Calalily, you have seen Tallow trees for sale at home depot? They are one of the worst trees to deal with here. Florida has made it illegal to sell them (Alabama should too). Man, that would make me mad to see that too.
Calalily
Deep South Coastal, TX
(Zone 10a)

March 5, 2006
7:28 PM

Post #2088815

Yes, they had tallow trees for sale. I couldn't believe it! They said "fast growing shade tree." They should also say "plant in the dark so your neighbors don't see what you're planting!"
sugarweed
Jacksonville & Okeec, FL
(Zone 9a)

March 6, 2006
3:17 AM

Post #2090019

Whoa Nelly, the mighty Cottonwood is not a tallow tree!
http://davesgarden.com/pf/search.php?search_text=cottonwood tree&images_prefs=both&Search=Search
isn't anywhere near http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/32151/index.html
I just wrote the only nursery advertising them for sale this email;

For God's sake please quit selling these trees!!!!!!!!!
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/32151/index.html
Please read these reports and don't add to the proublem.
You have a good rating with Dave's garden Watchdog.
We think you want to be responsible nurserymen.
Please quit selling these immediately.
Thank you,
Sidney
Calalily
Deep South Coastal, TX
(Zone 10a)

March 6, 2006
3:35 AM

Post #2090042

There goes common names again, lol. The tree at HD was "Chinese Tallow Tree" also called "popcorn tree" and I've heard some people here call them cottonwood. Heart shaped leaves, seeds blow all over the place...and every one of them must come up! I will be pulling them out again this summer. They grow 5-6 ft tall in one year. The Brazillian pepper tree is another pest, but folks keep planting them and I keep pulling them out.
leaflady
Hughesville, MO
(Zone 5a)

March 20, 2006
10:43 PM

Post #2126270

Well, I'm suprised Blk. Walnuts, Redbuds, most oaks and maple trees, Osage Orange, both black and honey locusts and many others have not been put on the list. Good grief, we do want something besides bare ground, concrete, and artificial turf outside our homes.

It took me years to get one or 2 buddleai d. to live thru the winter and even longer to get one seed from a 50 year old Mimosa to survive. Now we do have a lot of Mimosa and I kill any we don't want. Giant Reed Grass? It is grown in Botanical Gardens and it took me 3 trys over a period of 3 years to get even a small clump.
Equilibrium

March 21, 2006
3:15 AM

Post #2126956

Quoting:Well, I'm suprised Blk. Walnuts, Redbuds, most oaks and maple trees, Osage Orange, both black and honey locusts and many others have not been put on the list. Good grief, we do want something besides bare ground, concrete, and artificial turf outside our homes.

It took me years to get one or 2 buddleai d. to live thru the winter and even longer to get one seed from a 50 year old Mimosa to survive. Now we do have a lot of Mimosa and I kill any we don't want. Giant Reed Grass? It is grown in Botanical Gardens and it took me 3 trys over a period of 3 years to get even a small clump.
Please help me understand what you were trying to say.
leaflady
Hughesville, MO
(Zone 5a)

March 30, 2006
3:06 AM

Post #2149385

I'm saying that just because something does overly well in one area does not mean it will everywhere or that because something did not grow here before some foreign entity introduced it some way or another should not mean everyone everywhere has to give it up. Many individuals and agencies are not known for being reasonable. This is just one more example.
Equilibrium

March 30, 2006
5:48 PM

Post #2150626

Black Locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) is on several lists. The Norway Maple (Acer platanoides) and the Sawtooth Oak (Quercus acutissima) are also on several invasive species lists but that still leaves hundreds of other Oaks and Maples out there that have never exhibited invasive characteristics.

I would definitely agree with you that many plants don't exactly thrive in some areas. Unfortunately, many noxious weeds and invasive species have a built in "work around" for just these types of situations.
Quoting:many stressed plants can and will redirect all of their energies to seed production to ensure their survival. It is as if they know they are dying and are going for that final push before they are exhausted to perpetuate their species… Once that plant sets seed; wind, water, and critters help disperse it. So while it is true that many ecosystems will be inhospitable to an exotic invasive species, given all that we know regarding seed dispersal is it really prudent to continue promoting the worst of the worst plants being that the next County over by bird’s flight might not be as inhospitable?
I think what I was trying to say in the above is that just because people who grow these plants don't see the spontaneous seedlings, doesn't mean they aren't out there. And then there is another wild card that aggravates the situation... polyploidism. Many invasive species are polyploids.

Back at the beginning of this thread sofer posted “SAVE THE BUTTERFLY BUSH”. I feel relatively confident he was joking but I’m getting a little frustrated lately with the very small percentage of people who live around me who aren’t joking as well as the chain stores in my area actively marketing and selling plants that are documented as being highly invasive when more “reasonable” plants could be marketed and offered for sale.

A sizeable amount of scientific data irrefutably classifying Buddleia davidii as an invasive species is out there for the taking. If MaryMD7 chooses to remove her Butterfly Bush because it was planted "before I knew better and I deadhead, but I know it's bad and it should go", I personally applaud her for researching the plant and choosing to remove that particular species from her property but she certainly doesn’t have to. It’s her property and she presumably pays the property taxes on it and to the best of my knowledge, there is currently no law on the books for her State dictating she has to remove it.

I don’t applaud people who remove exotic plants just to be PC claiming they are doing so for the “greater good” because they are not native and need to go. This supports your comments, "just because something does overly well in one area does not mean it will everywhere or that because something did not grow here before some foreign entity introduced it some way or another should not mean everyone everywhere has to give it up". A small percentage of people are conscientiously choosing to classify all introduced species as "bad". Where’s the scientific data stating that all introduced species need to go? It doesn’t exist. This school of thought defies logic in that there are literally thousands of introduced species out there that don’t wreak havoc in the environment that some refuse to acknowledge actually stay put where planted thus respecting property lines. I think these are the people you were referring to when you said, “Many individuals and agencies are not known for being reasonable”. Many who choose to remove invasives struggle with the removal process. I know I always seem to get hung up with the price of the plant. I paid for it and wouldn’t have purchased it if I didn’t like it so it stings me in the wallet when I determine a plant I bought and planted in the ground has to go. We’re only human and many of these plants are absolutely beautiful and when we don’t see the spontaneous seedlings, destroying a plant is a difficult decision to make. Sometimes even when we see the spontaneous seedlings, destroying a plant is a difficult decision to make. The fact remains that the vast majority of people have never been afforded the luxury of viewing spontaneous seedlings in natural environments. Most unfortunately, some people could care less if the offspring of their plants ends up on other people’s properties or in natural environments. Out of sight, out of mind.
MaryMD7
Chesapeake Beach, MD

March 30, 2006
6:25 PM

Post #2150696

Well said Equil!

I love native plants and have personally placed more emphasis on them in my gardens, but I am by no means one of those people who say no exotics period. There are many wonderful, well-behaved exotics that are lovely additions to our gardens and landscapes. And there are also some exotics that are well-behaved and appropriate in some regions and not in others -- perhaps another way of saying that not every exotic plant merits a big red "do not plant anywhere in the country" sticker on it, just as there are a few native plants (like robinia) that are exotic invasives outside their native range in north america.

The problem isn't exotics per se -- it is exotic invasives. Likewise, the problem really isn't whether those exotics are thugs and invasive in YOUR garden (still a problem, but a different problem) -- it is whether they spread in natural areas to the detriment of native flora and biodiversity more generally.

So, while I unquestionably have the right to grow b. davidii since it hasn't YET made a noxious weed statute, and while b. davidii certainly isn't invasive in my garden itself, the science (and my own eyes observing the woods, fields and ditches around me)increasingly shows that it is a problem exotic invasive in my region of the country. Should I continue to cultivate it? Probably not. I've pulled one already.
Equilibrium

March 30, 2006
8:30 PM

Post #2150976

You know, I have grown to love native plants. I love a lot of exotic plants too.

Bear with me here for a moment while I vent. When my grandmother was a little girl, they had a dog. They never put the dog on a leash. Leashes were basically unheard of and nobody used them. Oh what a difference 90 years has made. Today, most areas have leash laws. I know my neighbors certainly wouldn’t want my dogs running loose. Not that my dogs are biters and not that my dogs aren’t fixed but when they pee they leave a huge brown spot in the lawn and when they poop they leave the equivalent of a cow pie that somebody has to pick up. These are my dogs, and cleaning up after them is my responsibility. Back when I was a little girl, we had cats. Keeping cats inside was for “city folk”. Leashes for cats were unheard of and nobody used them. Today, my County has leash laws for cats. Oh what a difference 45 years has made. I know most of my neighbors would not want my cats running loose to hang out underneath their bird feeders or to pee and poop in their plantings and kid’s sandboxes. My cats are my responsibility and I keep them as indoor pets for their safety as well as to ensure they don’t become a nuisance to my neighbors. We have leash laws for dogs and leash laws for cats and I’m afraid that in the next 20 years when my kids grow up and have children of their own, they’ll be reminiscing about the days when they were kids and nobody had ever heard of leash laws for plants. The sad reality is that my neighbors are planting some of the worst of the worst and those plants are repeatedly ending up on my property and I am having to “pick up” after their parent plants. I keep my mouth shut where I live in favor of repeatedly pulling up the Burning Bush, Purple Loosestrife, Garlic Mustard, Norway Maple, Miscanthus, Dame’s Rocket, Shasta and Oxe-Eye Daisies, Queen Anne’s Lace, Calleryana Pear, Russian Olive, White Mulberry, and most recently Japanese Barberry seedlings because I have to live here and there’s no sense even suggesting that any of my neighbors remove their beloved plants but it is getting real old real fast and I’ve got better things to do with my time than to be forced to continuously scout out spontaneous seedlings from their parent plants. Now for the devastating blow- Across the main road from me, two new subdivisions will be rising up out of the earth. I stopped in (curiosity) at a sales trailer they have at another development in the area to see what the homes they would be building across from me looked like. Very attractive homes. I was offered a folder of brochures to take home with me. I brought the sales packet home to be able to show my husband the floor plans and frontal elevations of the nice homes that were going up. I looked at the floor coverings available in the packages and I looked at the cabinets and vanities and lighting offered in the packages and it was looking very good. It was then that I caught the landscape package that came with each home. I was so upset tears were in my eyes when I read what the developer was offering. It was almost as if the developer had perused the Fed’s Invasive Species List and picked which plants would be offered to buyers from Invasive Species Lists. Each buyer gets their choice of any combination of plants from the list not to exceed $10,000. There were many native Ash offered as well as a few native Oaks, Redbuds, and I also noticed a few Viburnums as well as Diabolo Ninebark. The rest of the list included several Norway Maple cultivars ('Drummondii', ‘Crimson King’, 'Emerald Queen', “Summershade’), Sawtooth Oak, White Mulberry, Privet, Burning Bushes, European and Japanese Barberry, several Callery Pear cultivars (‘Bradford’, ‘New Bradford’, ‘Redspire’, ‘Cleveland Select’), Russian Olives, and European Mountain Ash. Buyers get a choice of ground covers which include Vinca, English Ivy, and the Ajuga cultivar “Chocolate Chip’. There are a growing number of people who do not want to “pick up” after other people’s dogs or cats or kids or plants. I can't begin to tell you how very upset I was when I read the list of plants offered because I know that plant material is going to end up over here by my house as well as in the Forest Preserve where I volunteer removing these types of plants. It will only be a matter of time.

Quoting:It is for this reason that I would be a proponent of a non-regulatory approach to these issues in which educating the public is pushed to the forefront so that these very complex issues can be discussed without all the polarization of sides.
In light of what is evidently going in across the street from me and given this area has several thousand acres of natural areas as well as being an upper watershed of the Des Plaines River Basin, I am re-thinking the statement I made. Perhaps it is time for some of the worst of the worst to be officially banned in my State. I feel beaten. I work so hard clearing my property of exotic invasives. I have been trying not to whine too much about some of these exotic invasive plants but the heartbreak and extra work they have caused me has given me reason to re visit gardening. I still enjoy it, but right now I am envisioning lots and lots of effort getting destroyed here once these homes go up across the street with their “landscape packages”. I can’t clear out what I’ve already got here fast enough to replant disturbed areas and now there will be several hundred new construction homes going up and excavation is going to start here in the very near future??? And that's just the one subdivision. I have no idea what landscape packages the other subdivision will be offering. I am really wondering if it is worth all my time and expense. Workshops to clear invasives from public land will be gearing up very soon. Volunteers will be asked to help. I will be one of the volunteers asked to help. Right about now I am totally demoralized. Just when I was making headway over here on my property. You have no idea how much disturbed ground I have from removing exotic invasives. I’m feeling like a sitting duck.
escambiaguy
Atmore, AL
(Zone 8b)

March 31, 2006
5:24 AM

Post #2152105

I know very well how you feel. I cannot begin to tell how many weekends I have spent trying to clear out Chinese tallow, Chinese privet, camphor, jap. honeysuckle, etc.,etc.,etc. I work manual labor all week long and the last thing I feel like doing on my time off is clearing invasives from my property. It's even more frustrating during the spring and summer because the snakes are crawling and the poison ivy is growing, so I can't even get access to the invasives. So I just have to let them do thier thing until next fall (after they have produced thousands more seeds). I get aggravated with my neighbor every time I look at his property. He lets the invasives run rampant, so I will always have to pull seedlings. The sad thing is, he probably doesn't even know that they are exotic invasives. I guarantee I could ask 100 people around here about Chinese privet, and about 95% of them would not even know that it is not a native plant.
dodecatheon
Wauconda, IL

April 2, 2006
3:21 AM

Post #2156898

I always thought that your right to do what you want ends at your property line. And if what you want to do spills onto someone else's property...you shouldn't get to do it any more!

The only way we will get the green industry to start acting responsibly is regulation. Just call me sick and tired of pulling hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of the neighbors buckthorn seedlings out of my yard every year. Or the Japanese Honeysuckle. Or the Wiegela. Or the barberry.
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

May 25, 2006
5:46 AM

Post #2315301

After reading this thread, I feel demoralized as well, and I've not even started to address invasives here, mainly because I'm learning what is here and what are invaders.

Our three acres are covered in black locust.They just bloomed, snowed their seeds, and are rapidly rooting in the spring rain we've had. They root fast, even on my car. I've spread hundreds of the seeds between here and the coast because they were plastered to my car.

Huge areas of purple loosestrife are getting ready to bloom. I'll hack as much as I can before that happens. I didn't know until last month they were a problem (thanks to being part of DG).

Ivy looked interesting when we moved in two years ago, climbing up the dogwood, pepperwood, and old tree stumps, but then I soon realized it was killing the trees and rapidly crawling down the hillside. I've at least hacked it off at the bottoms of the trees nearest the house. It's helped down huge locust trees in the wintertime.

Butterfly Bush grows wild here...I don't know if it is a native or not yet. I planted two, not knowing they were so terrible. So far my dogs have deadheaded them for me...before they actually flowered.

Miscanthus is a problem? And Russian Olive? Why did the forestry service (or whichever governmental agency) sell Russian Olives to me in Colorado when I lived on forty acres?

There is no way I'll physically or financially be able to remove these invaders, at least not for many years, and I live in the middle of a wild area, with an overall poor population that would not be able to deal with them either.

The more I know, the more I know I don't know, and the more worried I get about doing stupid things...like buying and planting butterfly bushes. In fact, one just arrived from Bluestone Perennials just last Friday. Drat.

Ignorance is bliss...
Calalily
Deep South Coastal, TX
(Zone 10a)

May 27, 2006
3:02 PM

Post #2322102

I passed a fairly new house the other day...they'd lined the property with chinese tallow trees. They had to come from a nursery, they were almost identical size, about 6 -8 ft tall.
I'm still pulling seedlings from my neighbor's tree.
Equilibrium

May 27, 2006
11:07 PM

Post #2323241

Chinese Tallow? And people wonder why we're probably headed smack dab into plant regulation beyond our wildest dreams.
escambiaguy
Atmore, AL
(Zone 8b)

May 27, 2006
11:09 PM

Post #2323247

If they were in Florida they could be fined or arrested for planting Tallow trees. They are a huge problem for me here.
Equilibrium

May 27, 2006
11:10 PM

Post #2323252

They're a huge problem in Texas too. That's what I don't get, why keep selling them?
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

May 27, 2006
11:25 PM

Post #2323287

Capitalism at it's best. It makes someone money in several arenas. Growing and selling, then eradicating. Call me cynical.
Equilibrium

May 27, 2006
11:30 PM

Post #2323299

Well, you can call me cynical too then because I am the one who called it double dipping. It goes something like this- Oh here buy this beautiful shrub/tree/perennial. Oops, it's banned? No kidding. If only we would have known we would have never sold it. Here, just go and dig that bad plant up and we'll sell you this nice replacement that is safe.
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

May 27, 2006
11:45 PM

Post #2323339

I forgot about that last leg of the cycle - another sale. (plus the tools/chemicals/services to destroy the first one).

ViburnumValley

ViburnumValley
Scott County, KY
(Zone 5b)

May 27, 2006
11:51 PM

Post #2323351

Capitalism at its best is supplying the demand, especially hitting the niche that derives from governmental intervention, and overcoming the obstacles thrown up. Capitalism at its worst is selling things because there isn't a law against it. Citizen apathy in participatory government allows the worst of all forms of politics.

I am no fan of idiots who continue to produce known invasive exotics (in the true definition of the term, not garden weeds) nor of the equally nonsensical who insist that it is their right to plant anything anywhere. These two groups deserve the governmental hammer (laws and penalties) that will befall them when they refuse to participate voluntarily.

These people remind of those who believe it is fine to pour their used motor oil down drains; to continue to use lead paint; to throw trash out their car windows, over a embankment, or into a sinkhole.

When the laws are finally passed, and the perpetrators caught, tried, and sentenced...I hope they get community service like happens to the graffiti-ists that deface public property. They get to clean up other peoples' messes around here (toilets, parking lots, other graffiti). I have just the place for them to repay society. It really is too good for them -- fresh air, birds chirping, sounds of children playing, splashing running water. It is Louisville's park lands, and these folks will get to start with Ailanthus, Alliaria, Euonymus, Hedera, Lonicera, Morus alba, Rosa multiflora, and Vinca.

And things will improve.
Equilibrium

May 28, 2006
12:10 AM

Post #2323396

Ah, consequences for one's actions. Now there's a novel concept. I'm sure all of us common folk working under all the land stewards would love to have some help cleaning up some of these messes on public land.
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

May 28, 2006
12:16 AM

Post #2323409

Bravo, VibernumValley!
I stand corrected - capitalism at it's best means the consumer is educated and participatory in the workings of the world around them...

And being a bonified, forever-since-I-was-born, save-the-world ,environmentally-protective, rabble-rouser that I am, I say, "LEARN, TEACH, BOYCOTT!"

It's all part of the same soapbox: we're all connected.



Equilibrium

May 28, 2006
12:58 AM

Post #2323507

Uh oh... ;)
dodecatheon
Wauconda, IL

May 28, 2006
9:01 PM

Post #2325879

"I don’t applaud people who remove exotic plants just to be PC claiming they are doing so for the “greater good” because they are not native and need to go. This supports your comments, "just because something does overly well in one area does not mean it will everywhere or that because something did not grow here before some foreign entity introduced it some way or another should not mean everyone everywhere has to give it up". A small percentage of people are conscientiously choosing to classify all introduced species as "bad"."

Equil, I peronally haven't seen anyone here say that all introduced species are bad news. I agree with Viburnum Valley in that you shouldn't knowingly plant something that is invasive in your area. I love my snapdragons and Iris. Balloonflower. Tomatoes, lettuce and green beans. Huechera and pulmonaria. Toad lillies. I have lots of non-native stuff. I just make sure it's not invasive, because I know more now than I did even 5 years ago.

I applaud other people who give up their cherished and beautiful invasive plants that they have nurtured and fretted over, for the "greater good"...they're better men than I am, and if they love their plants, it's actually difficult, mentally, to put that spade in and dig it up. I understand why they planted them, because I've planted some of the same stuff myself. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing something for the "greater good." It's not PC, it's honorable.

I planted lots of bad stuff when I was ignorant of the ramifications of planting bad stuff. Even though I have been involved in restoring prairies and woodlands for going on 30 years, on and off...I didn't study stuff back then as much as I do now. And, to give myself a tiny break...information on invasives and what was invasive and the damage they do was not easily come by. We just cut down shrubs (mostly that autumn olive crud)and burned and collected seed. The benefits of burning prairies was not even that well understood at the time.

It is going to hurt a lot to dig up and dispose of my patch of yellow flag Iris, even though I faithfully deadhead the things. I WILL feel guilty. I have decided that they are going to go away, even though I love irises. I'm going to let them bloom out, take lots of pictures, deadhead them, and then they're gone. Something in me has a hard time killing healthy plants...but, I must. If I'm going to talk the talk, I gotta walk the walk.

It will hurt even worse when I have to dig up and dispose of my buddleia, because it makes these gigantic white blooms about a foot long every growing season, all growing season. I faithfully deadhead that thing, too. I might not be able to make myself do it this year, to be honest, but I will do it. In the meantime, and ever since I've had the thing, I will continue to make sure it doesn't make seeds ever. I will take lots of photos, and dig it up next March, before it has emerged from dormancy. Believe me, I will feel guilty as all get out for doing so.

I wish I could find a native shrub that had even similar properties. I was thinking Clethra, but it gets too big for that spot, and it's too full sun for a Fothergilla. I'm open to suggestions, LOL!

This message was edited May 28, 2006 4:16 PM
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

May 28, 2006
9:35 PM

Post #2325996

Maybe we should have a funeral thread next spring for the buddleia we folks have to sadly exterminate.

Fortunately for me, I've only had a buddleia for about a year, so haven't become as attached. But the reason I planted it was that I'd seen it growing in the woods, and thought I was just going with the flow. I'm not sure how much my action will impact the local area, or anyone but me, but why add to the problem? As you say, VV, I want to walk the walk, not just talk the talk. OR I have to shut up. (not possible, more than likely :-)

Equilibrium..."Uh oh... ;)" ???

ViburnumValley

ViburnumValley
Scott County, KY
(Zone 5b)

May 29, 2006
1:05 AM

Post #2326577

dode:

I would really find it hard to believe that a Clethra is going to get too big for any spot in northern IL. Unless you've actually seen one get bigger than your butterflybush gets each year, I'd go with the summersweet. They aren't identical, but that's not the point.

Additionally, if you HAVE seen summersweet exceed, say, 6'x6', it would not be out of the question to remove occasional stems (it is a slow colonizer unless you live in relative constant moisture and loose soils) to manage it at a certain height and width. And all those excess stems (if any) are among the easiest woodies to root and distribute.

4paws:

Boycott: maybe. Take your business to those who advance the positive and the right: better. And tell the less than savory that you (and all your friends and their $$, ££, €€, and ¢¢) have done so.
dodecatheon
Wauconda, IL

May 29, 2006
2:16 AM

Post #2326804

Viburnum,

I've not seen clethra up here, period. My understanding was that it was a suckering shrub that produced small colonies. Since I don't have the room for small colonies of anything...

The butterfly bush gets about 5' high by 4' wide. I will check out the clethra! I was also thinking buckeye, but they get huge. Thanks, VV.

ViburnumValley

ViburnumValley
Scott County, KY
(Zone 5b)

May 29, 2006
2:32 AM

Post #2326853

At least one nursery (Beaver Creek) that I buy from in your part of the world is field-growing Clethra; you might also ask Kevin_5 about his experience with this plant's performance.

It'll want wet; I always suggest this as a "downspout" shrub (or Ilex verticillata), for those people that kill everything else around those spots.
Equilibrium

May 29, 2006
12:06 PM

Post #2327610

Clethra and I. verticillata are both good downspout plants? Cool, I've got a few that aren't diverted or connected up to a rain barrel around here. I have always avoided planting anything by downspouts and those areas are void of plantings. Glad you mentioned that. I will probably do a raingarden one day by one too.

Next time you come up this way to go to Beaver Creek, I'm going to drive with you and see what they have. You said it wasn't that far from my house so I better get my butt over there. I still like Great Lakes Nursery though for field grown.
Equilibrium

May 29, 2006
9:45 PM

Post #2329266

I just ran across this thread and thought it was rather ironic given this thread over here-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/608415/
Calalily
Deep South Coastal, TX
(Zone 10a)

May 30, 2006
3:31 PM

Post #2331435

Butterfly weed is asclepias tuberosa, not buddleia. Asclepias tuberosa is a native plant.
Equilibrium

May 30, 2006
3:49 PM

Post #2331499

A. tuberosa is still a little weedy out my way. A. verticillata is weedy out my way too but I do have to admit that I didn't catch that they weren't talking about Buddleia. We refer to Buddleia as Butterfly Weed out here and Asclepias as plain old Milkweed. My bad for not looking at her photo or paying attention in general.
Calalily
Deep South Coastal, TX
(Zone 10a)

May 30, 2006
5:04 PM

Post #2331735

I remember the A. tuberosa from Tennessee. I liked them, but they didn't like to be dug up and moved. Here we have A. curassavica which can be weedy too, but the monarch cats love it.
Equilibrium

May 30, 2006
5:08 PM

Post #2331749

Yes, I leave them alone for that reason. The Monarch caterpillars do love them so!
joepyeweed
Peoria, IL

May 30, 2006
5:22 PM

Post #2331807

Asclepias is not an invasive plant. Leave them be... great butterfly habitat.

I just posted the following statement on gardenweb and I am going to post it here also.

I think when we confuse or misuse the term invasive when referring to aggressive plants, we trivialize the damage caused by true invasives.

Butterfly Bush is invasive. (Buddleia davidii)

Butterfly weed - asclepias tuberosa is rarely aggressive and not invasive. And its quite picky in site selection.

Other Asclepias species - swamp milkweed or common milkweed may be aggressive and spread readily in the right conditions but they are not invasive.
Equilibrium

May 30, 2006
7:14 PM

Post #2332180

You are correct.
bensjd
Spokane, WA

May 31, 2006
1:57 AM

Post #2333749

Here's a link to a Maryland Native Plant Society
http://www.mdflora.org/
I didn't see your plant on their admittedly short list of invasive shrubs; here are some native plants they recommend
RECOMMENDED NATIVE SHRUBS
Spicebush (Lindera benzoin), which is covered with tiny yellow flowers in March, is our most common native shrub. It needs rich soil, as does strawberry bush (Euonymus americanus). Maple-leaf viburnum (Viburnum acerifolium) is suited to dry shade and thinner soil, while the arrowwoods (Viburnum dentatum, V. recognitum, V. nudum) grow in moist soil. Wild hydrangea (Hydrangea arborescens), parent of some cultivated varieties, is a somewhat vining shrub. Highbush blueberry (Vaccinium corymbosum, the parent of cultivated blueberries) and lowbush blueberry (V. vacillans) need very acidic soil. They tolerate shade but fruit best in sun. Both turn red in fall.
dodecatheon
Wauconda, IL

May 31, 2006
3:48 AM

Post #2334192

I think once the fact that the Tallow Tree has human health implications gets out...they'll FINALLY stop selling them.
Calalily
Deep South Coastal, TX
(Zone 10a)

June 1, 2006
12:12 PM

Post #2339042

Dodecatheon, what does the tallow tree do to humans? Those things are everywhere down here!
kenrnoto
Westminster, MD
(Zone 7b)

August 28, 2006
3:52 PM

Post #2667895

When I lived in Owings Mills Maryland we had three large (7 ft tall) Butterfly bushes in our townhouse backyard. Many of our winters there were mild so they didn't die back much. Because of that we cut back the plants severely, but they always grew back.

When we moved to upper Westminster in March 2005 we purchased new Buttlerfly bushes; one for the front just off our front porch and one in the back off the patio. We wanted to be able to see them and watch all the activity.

And boy, did we have activity! Monarchs, Yellow Tigers, Mourning Cloaks, Baltimore Skippers, Hummingbird Moths and of course Humming birds. We were delighted that one simple bush gave us so much enjoyment.

2005 ended and Spring 2006 came fast. The bush in front began to grow early; the one in back late. Summer came and so did the blossoms and the butterflys. Many more than in Owings Mills. Out here in Westminster its a much more agricultural community. Again we had Monarchs, but so many I lost count. They would come in from every direction swirling on the wind. Sometimes a pair would meet and dance around each other for a minute or so before landing on a raceme. Big Yellow Tigers, the largest I've seen, were well fed from visiting the Butterfly bush many times each day. It was wonderful watching them each day from my chair on the porch or my chair inside my den.

Then one day, in my front garden bed, on the other side of the porch, I noticed three small butterfly bushes growing. I let them grow. In August the largest bloomed with white flowers. I thought that odd since my front butterfly bush was purple flowering and the one in back was sort of a pinkish white. I still let them grow because I want to transplant them along my fence.

Anyway, I really like this plant because it does feed many different types of butterflys and of course ruby throated hummingbirds. As for being invasive in the wild, I've never seen one growing on the roadsides here in north central maryland, never!
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

August 28, 2006
4:04 PM

Post #2667925

Well, they have totally made themselves at home here in the forests, as have mimosa and foxglove (and ivy).

I dug mine up and burned them this spring, and am saddened (and maddened) by all that are sold by the nurseries and so called "environmentally minded," politically correct, organic (etc. etc) growers.

Ironically, a root I put in a pot thinking it was pineapple sage turned out to be one of the buddleias I burned. Bloomed on its 6" stem. I pulled it.

People more knowledgeable than I could probably talk about whether or not they are good for the butterflies, etc. There are other plants that draw both the butterflies and hummingbirds very nicely, without spreading to the woods. They are good for easy human entertainment.

The timing for this thread to be bumped is good - when I saw that buddleia blooming in my wine barrel, I thought to go looking for this thread, but hadn't yet.





This message was edited Aug 28, 2006 9:07 AM
Equilibrium

August 28, 2006
5:49 PM

Post #2668295

Quoting:There are other plants that draw both the butterflies and hummingbirds very nicely, without spreading
Most would agree and there are many websites that list plants that are considerably more eco-friendly than a known exotic invasive species.
Quoting:Then one day, in my front garden bed, on the other side of the porch, I noticed three small butterfly bushes growing. I let them grow. In August the largest bloomed with white flowers. I thought that odd since my front butterfly bush was purple flowering and the one in back was sort of a pinkish white. I still let them grow because I want to transplant them along my fence.
Thank you so much for sharing this kenrnoto. Just because we don't see consequences of irresponsible acts doesn't mean they don't occur. Many gardeners who grow species that are known exotic invasives often aren't afforded the luxury of seeing the consequences of their own acts first hand. It would appear you were just provided with seeing first hand how an exotic invasive species is able to get a foothold in the environment. I suspect the three "volunteers" you found growing on your property are nothing more than offspring of plants growing in your vicinity. Just as those plants volunteered on your property, there are others volunteering in natural areas which means the volunteers are displacing native flora. I can't thank you enough for pointing out the color of your blooming volunteer Butterfly Bush.

I found several volunteers from the plant I had here. I did a little bit more research and determined there was no way I could keep up with dead heading it so I dug it up and tossed it on the burn pile. I loved the plant and I loved the butterflies and such that visited it but I've been planting many well behaved plants that will fill the niche once occupied by that plant. Next year I will add even more species that will attract butterflies and hummers and moths. I love the hub of activity.
joepyeweed
Peoria, IL

August 28, 2006
6:15 PM

Post #2668419

As I read this thread I was reminded of the hummingbird yesterday that was feeding on the hosta flowers in my back yard.

As a native enthusiast, I would not have planted hostas, but they were there when I moved in, so I left them. I think the hummingbirds were glad I left them, because the cardinal flower that they had been feeding on is just about done blooming. The Royal Catchfly that would normally be blooming right now was decimated by rabbits... so the hostas have helped fill a gap...
Equilibrium

August 28, 2006
6:19 PM

Post #2668433

You know, I saw a hummingbird zipping around here when I was watering plants on Saturday. He was hanging out around the native Hydrangea I've been planting. I have lots of Asian Hosta here and I never quite pay attention to what visits them because they're all over on the north side of the house. I'll have to try to take notice of what hangs around those plants.
joepyeweed
Peoria, IL

August 28, 2006
6:27 PM

Post #2668451

I was a bit surprised to see the hummingbird feeding on the hosta flowers, but he kept going back there - so I assume he was getting some satisfaction there.

What type of hydrangea have you planted? I just put some in this year too. I put in three annabelles and one oak leaf.

The annabelle's bloomed nicely but they needed a lot of water - I hope that is just because they were new transplants. I won't be too happy with them, if I have to keep watering them in perpetuity.

The oak leaf seemed to adapt well to the new conditions. No blooms yet but it has some new growth and didn't seem to need as much water input as the annabelles.

ViburnumValley

ViburnumValley
Scott County, KY
(Zone 5b)

August 28, 2006
9:56 PM

Post #2669039

joepyeweed:

You probably don't have much issue with pesky hosta seedlings crowding out your local flora, either. And, I'd imagine that you are always looking for additional local flora to supplement what you currently have that contributes to other parts of other local fauna's life cycles.

That's the main beef I have with the concept of butterfly bush (and other plants like it); they don't contribute anything else, AND, the North American butterflies and hummingbirds managed to exist for eons without them. Plant what they are used to, and see how much more benefit is provided to the whole system. It's not that difficult.
Equilibrium

August 28, 2006
10:12 PM

Post #2669100

No V V, Hosta doesn't do much here. I do have to divide it every few years but they burn nicely. No seedlings escaping cultivation from parent Hosta plants.

Hey Joe, I planted the same native Hydrangeas that you planted as well as a few exotic species. Bad news, I use my Annabelles to judge when all of my plants need water. Two of my Annabelles have been in the ground for 3 years now and they are the first to wilt. I suspect you will be watering them for many years to come. Now, the Annabelles that I have planted down toward the wetlands are doing fine without supplemental waterings. Have you any downspouts you could relocate yours to?

Do you have any Clethra alnifolia? I just bought two more of those on the way home and I tossed in two more Fothergilla major. Those are veritable butterfly magnets.
joepyeweed
Peoria, IL

August 29, 2006
2:07 PM

Post #2671237

I don't have the alnifolia or any fothergilla.

I have plenty of butterfiles and hummingbirds that already hang out in my yard - so I have been pleased with what I do have growing. I am anticipating stuff to fill in and mature.

Most of my downspouts are in spots that are not conducive to plantings. (access to the back yard is an issue)... I have planted a rain garden at one downspout - perhaps the rain garden would have been a better choice for the annabelles. I do have two cephalanthus occidentalis at the edge of my rain garden. One is thriving, one is struggling.

I have been thinking about adding a cornus alternifolia, an amelanchier and a few rosa setigera to the landscape. I have the Rockford Wild One's Tree Sale form all filled out but I haven't sent it in yet.

Though I am hesitant to add any more trees. I am really confilicted about the next steps to take with my landscape right now. I want to add some more stuff, but I think I need to do more prep work... and I have been frustrated with some of the shade stuff that I put in - its not filling in as I would have hoped.

The hostas are holding their own against some boneset and tick trefoil. But they are not spreading.
Equilibrium

August 29, 2006
2:38 PM

Post #2671349

Quoting:Though I am hesitant to add any more trees. I am really confilicted about the next steps to take with my landscape right now. I want to add some more stuff, but I think I need to do more prep work... and I have been frustrated with some of the shade stuff that I put in - its not filling in as I would have hoped.
I struggle with the same issues which is why I stick garden.
joepyeweed
Peoria, IL

August 29, 2006
2:50 PM

Post #2671396

I am stick gardening also :-)

When we bought this house two years ago - the front yard had nothing except 7 very large oak trees and one hickory tree. The trees are big - and the rest of the yard was nothing but patchy grass. I figured it was a blank canvas that I could work in. I've planted alot of woodland type stuff in the shady areas - but its not doing as well as I had hoped. I've used leaf mulch - and I think the woodland stuff - needs a few more years of leaf mulch to restore the soil back to something that is "woodland" type soil. (Rather than the compacted - chem laden lawn soil - that had been beaten into submission.)

4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

August 29, 2006
3:01 PM

Post #2671432

Stick gardening? Please explain.
Equilibrium

August 29, 2006
3:38 PM

Post #2671561

Oh, stick gardening is really a rather simple process.

You see a plant you like.

You buy the plant without having the first clue of where you will plant it.

You get home and stick it anywhere you think it might have a chance of surviving.

This, my friend, is called stick gardening ;)
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

August 29, 2006
4:11 PM

Post #2671661

Ohhhh...I thought it was haphazard gardening. I'm definately a stick gardener, then. lol
beautifulchaos
Indianapolis, IN
(Zone 5b)

August 30, 2006
8:01 PM

Post #2675990

Great thread : ) And very infomative. It's ironic to me that my friends call me the 'plant doctor'...yet there are ALWAYS sooo many new things to learn : )
sempervirens
Northern, NJ
(Zone 6b)

November 12, 2006
9:17 AM

Post #2906476

Well I had one left that was so beautiful, trimmed up to a small tree shape, full of Monarchs this fall. It was slated to go next spring, or at least be potted and kept small so the deadheading wasn't such a chore. But the Monarchs and Hummers were starting to make me waver. A heavy rain storm came through, it was too top heavy and that was that. Now I can be ruthless and pull it out.

Thumbnail by sempervirens
Click the image for an enlarged view.

sallyg

sallyg
Anne Arundel,, MD
(Zone 7b)

November 12, 2006
3:56 PM

Post #2907081

I'm also conflicted on where to go next in this yard. I also do a lot of stick gardening!! Is there a name for the followup to that, you know, when the plant doesn't do well and you take it ona series of jaunts, trying other spots on your property, to see if you can get it to thrive? although, by the time I decide to move one, it's already weakened, decreasing it's chances of ever recovering...
my BBes are getting old and have not reseeded for me so that will open up two spaces for Sticks...
Equilibrium

November 12, 2006
7:56 PM

Post #2907664

Stick gardening II?

Have you any idea what you are going to plant after you waste your Butterfly Bushes?

Everyone has always teased me for what I'm about to say but I generally buy plants in threes or sixes or nines. I do this so I can test out different areas of the property. It has been my experience that by the time a plant is in decline due to poor siting, it was already too late to even attempt to move it. No sense wasting energy relocating a goner as by then the plant was destined to end up in plant heaven no matter what I did.

Sally, you might want to start a new thread and post photos of your property if at all possible. Show specific areas that you are interested in planting and see what people come up with. I've gotten a lot of really great ideas from other DGers. The one that stands out in my mind was to add height. I've had combinations suggested that I would have never even dreamed of. Some of the strangest suggestions really worked for me.
MaryMD7
Chesapeake Beach, MD

November 27, 2006
5:29 PM

Post #2947947

Since this thread was bumped recently, a little update on my buddleia dilemma. I've pulled and burned two of the bushes now. One was simply replaced with more wildlife friendly perennials (maryland wild senna, phlox and boltonia) and the other I replaced just last weekend with a red buckeye which the hummingbirds and butterflies will love.

B. davidii is a nectar plant for butterflies, true, but there are many other excellent nectar plants and it has absolutely no value for butterfly larvae. A true butterfly garden provides habitat for butterflies in all stages.

And, it is spreading in Maryland. I've found seedlings on an abandoned lot right in my neighborhood and Iand see them in other areas, particularly dry gravelly waste sites, as well.
joepyeweed
Peoria, IL

November 29, 2006
4:41 PM

Post #2953409

I can relate to much of the last few posts.

I always buy plants in multiples of three. I have a philosophy that if I just plant one plant in a spot and it dies, I am not sure why it died. But if all six plants die in one spot, well then that is definitely not the right spot for that species.

And there is that mass planting theory, where a plant will have more visual impact if its in a clump rather just one lone plant...unfortunately I have had enough plants die where only one is left which then ruins my clump plan... and yes by the time I decide I want to move a plant, its usually too late... and I am too lazy... there goes another one.

sallyg

sallyg
Anne Arundel,, MD
(Zone 7b)

November 29, 2006
6:33 PM

Post #2953612

there's the patient cheapskate method- buy only one, if it does well and multiplies, after some time you get your clumps. (shortly thereafter, you're begging for people to take your excess)
joepyeweed
Peoria, IL

November 29, 2006
8:56 PM

Post #2953959

I am waiting for the days when I can give people my excess...

At my previous home, I had beautiful sandy loam soil and I could grow almost anything. And I was constantly giving away plants. We moved a couple years ago and in this home the soil is icky clay and I am slowly figuring out what will grow here and what won't...

Gardener's Moral to the story: never buy a home without doing a soil test first.
Equilibrium

November 29, 2006
11:23 PM

Post #2954347

or a perc test ;)

sallyg

sallyg
Anne Arundel,, MD
(Zone 7b)

November 30, 2006
1:01 AM

Post #2954630

gotta admit, this coastal plain soil here is nice!!! I can always stick a shovel in w/o breaking a foot.
BTW, ripped out a Butt. Bush last week. Thinking I'll try Nicotiana Only the Lonely in its place next year.
joepyeweed
Peoria, IL

November 30, 2006
2:12 PM

Post #2955791

Oh yes, a perc test would have been good. I have dug holes to plant trees and filled them with water to pre-moisten the hole before I put the tree in (1 gallon size). The hole sat full of water for two days. grrr...

I put in a service berry and a pagoda dog wood this year. We shall see...

I keep adding organic matter to help improve the soil, but there is only so much OM and only so much time.

I guess the bright side is that many of the tough praire plants that like clay are doing well.
terryr
Bureau County, IL
(Zone 5a)

December 15, 2006
3:01 AM

Post #3000175

Really need to check this forum more often...

I used to buy in multiples. Then, well then after a series of events, and now little money, I only buy one of each, maybe 3 or more if it's a shrub and it's small enough = less money. I'm doing exactly what sally said and doing it the cheap way. Waiting for plants to fill out so I can dig and divide and spread em around. joe, some day my plants will spread and since you're so close, you're more than welcome to any excess I have.
Equilibrium

December 17, 2006
2:32 PM

Post #3006130

Quoting:BTW, ripped out a Butt. Bush last week
Way to go!

With all the people who are ripping this plant out and replacing it, we should start a club.
"Just say no to Buddleia"
terryr
Bureau County, IL
(Zone 5a)

December 17, 2006
2:33 PM

Post #3006132

You could make a t-shirt...I'd buy one :o)
wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

December 26, 2006
10:44 PM

Post #3026790

Gosh, this forum is depressing... I try to be good about avoiding invasives, but now I see that I've still got plenty. It makes me frustrated that the garden centers don't post more disclaimers to help buyers make more informed decisions. I know, I know, I know, Buyer Beware. Ugh.
sempervirens
Northern, NJ
(Zone 6b)

December 26, 2006
11:21 PM

Post #3026853

I agree wrightie, the garden centers don't help and really add to the problem. There has been many times I've been attracted to plants and and have questioned employees and have purchased plants I've had to throw out when I've looked them up. Part of the problem for me is that many of the great garden writers are British and following their concepts lead to problems here.
I just had to post the photo of my uprooted butterfly bush. Replacement will be Joe-pye-weed cultivar "Little Joe". I will miss the silvery leaves this winter though, if we do finally have winter.

Thumbnail by sempervirens
Click the image for an enlarged view.

MollieB55
Landrum, SC
(Zone 7b)

February 5, 2007
9:46 PM

Post #3160961

I asked about the Butterfly Bush on another invasive thread. I have had one for about 15 years. Just one. The last few years I have been ill and not deadheaded and there is still just one Butterfly Bush in my whole area. However, I have watched as the Butterfly WEED has marched down the roadside totally unaided by mankind. But then the Joe-pye-weed comes into bloom and that is all you can see anywhere! It takes over! I hear that Queen's Anne Lace is so invasive but the original settlers in this area often used it. I don't have a single one and there aren't any for a couple of miles around me although they do show up along the roadsides farther away from my house.

I live in the foothills of the Blue Ridge and keep hearing about "native" plants and trees. There are practically NO virgin forests along the Appalachian Mts. They were practically clear cut as settlers moved in and built homes. Not many of those settlers took the time to write down the species of trees and plants they were killing or what they had brought with them. We really have little proof of what is "native" and what is not.

I have been studying this for about 20 years. I got interested when I moved to the area and became fascinated with its history. I am sure each area of our country has it own special twists and turns in its history that effects our current environment.

Supposed the Sweetgum tree in "native" to where I am. It is also annoying, sheds large, burr-like seeds and is very, very invasive. It's roots stay close to the surface and constantly send up suckers and is very extensive. But it is NATIVE. It is a very, very hard wood and few people will take them out.

I think we are talking about two different problems. Invasive and/or native? Native does not necessarily mean good!
Equilibrium

February 5, 2007
10:41 PM

Post #3161114

It's really hard to comprehend that such a beautiful plant can pose such a threat. Perhaps your plant hasn't set seed however others have and they've done so in South Carolina. Butterfly Bush has in fact naturalized in SC so somebody's plants are escaping cultivation and it's not just one or two doing it but groves-
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=BUDA2
So has Daucus carota-
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=DACA6

I disagree that we have little proof of what was native and what wasn't in that region and there are several research stations that share just this information. I've visited Clemson as well as other centers myself. They're out there and they're open to the public yet how many people know they are there?

Many acres of land convert to weeds annually. With all we have learned about invasive species, it's a shame. We can do what we can to address the mistakes of the past but we need to move forward. Screening plants for invasiveness is going to be a tremendous help. This type of legislation is coming.

Perhaps someday in the not too distant future, we may be able to enjoy some virgin forests along the Appalachian Mts.
Equilibrium

February 8, 2007
8:21 AM

Post #3168616

This for wrightie-
When one jumps on, others will follow.

Link to The Nature Conservancy-
http://www.nature.org/wherewework/northamerica/states/michigan/news/news2223.html
Quoting:Meijer donates $450,000 to fight spread of invasive plants
The Nature Conservancy and Meijer stores are joining forces to battle the spread of invasive plants. The effort is the first of its kind for The Nature Conservancy, according to spokesperson Melissa Soule.
Under the partnership, Meijer is donating $450,000 during the next three years to discourage invasive plants and to protect Lake Michigan’s shoreline.
Starting next spring, it will also put special tags on non-invasive plants sold in Meijer stores and offer video and written materials to educate shoppers about the benefits of planting non-invasive species, whether native or introduced.
Meijer has also agreed as of next year to stop selling two invasive plants, Norway maple and Lombardy poplar, and will review other plants it carries for invasive potential.

Interestingly enough, it is my understanding they won't sell Bradford Pear, Butterfly Bush, or Burning Bushes!
greenkat
Crofton, MD
(Zone 7a)

February 9, 2007
7:26 PM

Post #3172915

MollieB55- You sound sort of angry or maybe a bit scared. Are you worried that butterfly bushes might become illegal to own? Or that you will have to deadhead your bush by law? I don't think that's going to happen. Sorry that you have been ill. You must miss working in your garden, I know I would.

You are wrong about butterfly weed (I assume you mean Asclepias syriaca or Asclepias incarnata) being "totally unaided by mankind". It marches down the roadside exactly because humans have created the ideal conditions for it. First, when the road was made, we scraped away all the other plants. Because rainwater washes off roadways and collects in troughs and ditches by the side, plants that tolerate standing water thrive there. Asclepias spreads there first by seed. But then it multiplies by rhizomes. It can not be eradicated by roadside mowing. Cut one down and it will pop up in two more places.

I agree with Equilibrium as to having evidence of what was native and what wasn't. There was plenty of interest in new species of plants. Although the first explorers to the new world were looking for trade routes to the far east, they took back plants and seeds as well as other potential trade goods. Where do you think Europeans got corn, tomatoes, tobacco, potatoes, sweet potatoes from? All of these plants originally came from the new world. Many originated in South America but were traded by Indian tribes until they became ubiquitous through out the new world. And although early settlers were very busy just surviving, they didn't have computers, ipods, TVs and the like to spend their time on. Some were self educated. They read what ever books they could find. They studied their surroundings including plants. Here is a link to a short piece about Humphry Marshall, an American botanist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humphry_Marshall
MollieB55
Landrum, SC
(Zone 7b)

February 11, 2007
8:42 AM

Post #3177154

greenkat, I am not scared about the butterfly bush. I do know that I can read everything available but it will not hold as much water as what I have lived with for 31 years. The botantist you refered to was born a hundred years anfer the first Amercan settlement. And Europe did not get potatoes from us, we got them Euorpe.
I have a vine that I see people asking for all the time and calling native. It probably it. It is second only to kudzq for being invasive however. It will choke the life out of huge trees.I had a lovly poplar stand and didn't realiz the top of it was riddlled with musgutine vine. Lighting hit that vine one night and travled long it and I lost 7 beautuiful trees. I constantly check my works for it. Now I hav neighbors building arbors for them. The birds will eat those grapes and leave me with the vines to keep under control. It easily escapes into the wild but noe cares.

Since this has come up, I have ased around and no within 50 miles of me has any trouble with the butterfly bush. NO on deadheads.I do just so I can get more blooms. I am ready the diaries of several families that settled along the Blue Ridge and try to complie a list of plant that they knew that were here when then arrived. as well as plamts and animals that they brought with them.

South Carolina got rich on rice and indigo before the Civil War. Both crops brought over by the African slaves who then had to teach there owners how to plant and care for them

I guess my main cripe is that I don't care how NATIVE it is, if it invasive, I don't want it! I don't know where the Butterfly Bush came but it is staying i get myy garden up and growing. I am looking into joining the closest Native Plant society.
Equilibrium

February 11, 2007
12:33 PM

Post #3177378

Interesting comments, "no within 50 miles of me has any trouble with the butterfly bush".
Quoting:greenkat, I am not scared about the butterfly bush. I do know that I can read everything available but it will not hold as much water as what I have lived with for 31 years. The botantist you refered to was born a hundred years anfer the first Amercan settlement. And Europe did not get potatoes from us, we got them Euorpe.
I have a vine that I see people asking for all the time and calling native. It probably it. It is second only to kudzq for being invasive however. It will choke the life out of huge trees.I had a lovly poplar stand and didn't realiz the top of it was riddlled with musgutine vine. Lighting hit that vine one night and travled long it and I lost 7 beautuiful trees. I constantly check my works for it. Now I hav neighbors building arbors for them. The birds will eat those grapes and leave me with the vines to keep under control. It easily escapes into the wild but noe cares.

Since this has come up, I have ased around and no within 50 miles of me has any trouble with the butterfly bush. NO on deadheads.I do just so I can get more blooms. I am ready the diaries of several families that settled along the Blue Ridge and try to complie a list of plant that they knew that were here when then arrived. as well as plamts and animals that they brought with them.

South Carolina got rich on rice and indigo before the Civil War. Both crops brought over by the African slaves who then had to teach there owners how to plant and care for them

I guess my main cripe is that I don't care how NATIVE it is, if it invasive, I don't want it! I don't know where the Butterfly Bush came but it is staying i get myy garden up and growing. I am looking into joining the closest Native Plant society.

http://www.scnps.org/PDFs/SWU_map.pdf

Best wishes to you Mollie.

MollieB55
Landrum, SC
(Zone 7b)

February 11, 2007
3:01 PM

Post #3177802

Equilibrium, Hi there! Remind me not to write at 5 in the morning ever again! Everyone, please, forgive that wretched spelling. And I did not mean to come off sounding so snippy at all! Believe me, I know i made and still make lots of gardening errors! But when I moved into this area it is so different from my place of birth - SC vs Ohio, and I loved it so, that I began researching its beginnings and history. Then I taught SC history for 8 years. Plus, I have lived in 4 states and SC is the first place that I ever had to battle invasive plants. (Probably just go lucky there)

My first few gardens here died because I was trying to make it an Ohio garden. Then I got intested in the lists of Natives. Muscadine was the first thing I learned to hate - especialy after losing the poplars and having a huge tree fall on my house during a storm. It had been choked out by the Muscadine vine! I had onel live in the house a few months.

Believe me, I spend more time getting rid of invasive plants that anything else. I sure don't want to contriubute to the problem! And after reading how the settlers stripped the land bear, I do want to bring as many natives as I can - if they don't take over my entire yard!
greenkat
Crofton, MD
(Zone 7a)

February 11, 2007
3:57 PM

Post #3177980



I know what you mean about the native grape, the Muscadine. We have it here in MD. It is tenacious once established and very hard to uproot. We also have Virginia Creeper, another native that has invasive tendencies.

I

This message was edited Feb 12, 2007 7:07 AM
Equilibrium

February 11, 2007
5:51 PM

Post #3178431

My husband refers to it as typing while impaired. Mostly happens to me when I am overtired or when I have a cat in my lap that I am trying to type around or when I wake up in the middle of the night bored out of my gourd because I fell asleep too early.

I never make gardening mistakes... no not me... never ever ever- ha!

Vitis has a look alike that is exotic that many mistake for the native however, even the native can get a little weedy when the flora and fauna that historically occurred with it that kept it in balance are absent from the equation. The Poplars you referred to may or may not be native.

You're so close to the NC border that you might want to check out this native plant society too-
http://www.ncwildflower.org/

ViburnumValley

ViburnumValley
Scott County, KY
(Zone 5b)

February 11, 2007
7:25 PM

Post #3178765

Mollie:

Did you send your muscadine up north for vacation? Here's one cohabiting with Platanus occidentalis in Ghent, KY.

That is its trunk on the left.

Thumbnail by ViburnumValley
Click the image for an enlarged view.

wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

February 11, 2007
11:21 PM

Post #3179517

NO WAY - that is huge.

ViburnumValley

ViburnumValley
Scott County, KY
(Zone 5b)

February 12, 2007
2:07 AM

Post #3180144

Way.

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