The buddleia has to go, doesn't it?

Chesapeake Beach, MD

I planted it before I knew better and I deadhead, but I know it's bad and it should go. It's almost time for the late winter pruning. I could use y'all's encouragement to do it with a shovel rather than a shears.

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Boy why! I did not know Buddleia was invasive anywhere. Here it just grows and grows in the same spot. SAVE THE BUTTERFLY BUSH!

Pahrump, NV(Zone 8b)

Interesting. First time I've heard buddleia dissed. Though I've noticed that at least half the plants that are being called invasive here you could not even grow where I live. Several that are constantly warned against are actually sold by our extension service and are recommended in and by the state of Nevada.

Guess it all depends on where you live.

Chesapeake Beach, MD

Oh b. davidii is invasive in many parts of the U.S. It's also one of the top invasive weeds in the U.K. Remember that invasiveness does not necessarily have anything to do with what it does in your garden. Invasive plants aren't necessarily garden thugs. And don't necessarily trust state agencies. For years, state highway departments would plant rosa multiflora and autumn olive -- plants that are now thugs being battled by ag and natural resources agencies in those same states.

Pahrump, NV(Zone 8b)

No, it has to do with if it can escape into the wild and displace native flora & fauna, destroy habitat, etc. Very few things are capable of doing that here.

Buddleia most definitely can not survive here without assistance. Nor can the oh-so-dreaded mimosas. Good luck even attempting to grow something like loosestrife, ain't gonna happen. Foxglove? Sure, if you want to stand over it with a hose all day.

The world-eating evening primrose makes a lovely garden plant here....with care and protection from rabbits and chipmunks. Left out to it's own devices it is either eaten to death or dies of dehydration....as is nearly anything else.



This message was edited Mar 3, 2006 1:19 PM

Hey MaryMD7, I planted many things before I knew better and my MIL "gifts" me plants that are trouble. Don't beat yourself up over it, big deal. Here's what I arranged that might interest you. I have some plants in up tight around my house. Either I deadhead them or sometimes my neighbor comes over and deadheads them when she's got time during the day. Yes, I know... but my neighbor is into wildlife and she likes to poke around over here so she wanders over and I can always tell when she's been over because plants will have been noticeably deadheaded. Anyway, I walked around and pointed out to my husband exactly which plants to dig up if I got struck by lightening tomorrow and I e-mailed photos to my best friend and she promised she'd send her gardener (must be nice) over here if I died tomorrow in a car accident. I don't have many that are exotic and aggressive but I do have a few in this courtyard type deal by my front doors. And, I have one Bradford Pear left that is an exotic invasive species like the Butterfly Bush that Vic promised me would be first on her hit list because she knows my husband likes it and wanted to keep it for just a few more years. I'm covered if I croak because either Maria or Vic would get over here and remove that Bradford as well as a few others and I know they would follow through because it's important to me. They also know my husband would never deadhead any of them because the biggest problem child plants over here were gifts to me from his Mother. That being said, I make a few of her "gifts" go to plant heaven every year that I feel I can nuke them without getting caught. A little spritz here, a little spritz there, here a spritz, there a spritz, everywhere a spritz spritz. I used to feel guilty because her heart is in the right place but after she bought me "different" Burning Bushes when she knew I had removed 12 of them from here, I lost all pangs of guilt. I love my MIL dearly but she only buys roses and garbage plants for me and I can't get her to quit "gifting" me. And, she bought me 2 Humming Bird Bushes (Butterfly Bushes) to flank an arbor once. Great for Humming Birds she told me as she pointed to the tag with the cute little Ruby Throated Hummer on it.

You seem torn up over the Butterfly Bush you have. Maybe you could tie a ribbon on your Butterfly Bush and let your husband know that if you die, he is to remove it and then keep deadheading it and enjoy it where it is. Just a thought.

Best wishes to you. Welcome to DG too, I clicked on your user name and noticed you were new.

This message was edited Nov 16, 2006 11:00 PM

Deep South Coastal, TX(Zone 10a)

Dana, same here! Buddleia, mimosa, foxglove, loostrife.......those barely survive in gardens and don't stand a chance in the wild. Oenothera is native here and the pink ones are pesky in the garden.
Clerodendron bungeii, C.philippinum and potato vine(the one with the big potatoes) won't live even in gardens!

Atmore, AL(Zone 8b)

I disagree with the comment about mimosa, it does survive without any assistance around here. I have some growing right across the road from my house by the railroad tracks. It is very invasive. But back to the Butterfly bush.....

Pahrump Nevada is a hop skip and a jump from Spring Mountain National Recreation Area, Carpenter Canyon, Trout Canyon and Wheeler Pass. Several issues exist in those areas already- http://www.library.unr.edu/subjects/guides/range/invasivespecies.html
I had to look on a map for Bayview and found that down in Cameron County. Texans have several issues too- http://fireant.tamu.edu/antfacts/pdf/texas1.pdf#search='Texas%20invasive%20species'
“Once a species is moved to a new ecosystem, it must find a suitable niche to become invasive.” The sad reality is that both Texas and Nevada have incredibly diverse terrestrial and aquatic ecosystems. Toss other factors into the mix such as those cited in the above PDF- “urban sprawl, already stressed ecosystems, and the overuse of chemicals” and the odds of an exotic invasive species getting a foothold increase dramatically. The fact remains that a small percentage of exotic invasive plants are escaping to more hospitable ecosystems where they are colonizing as a result of having been planted in seemingly inhospitable environments. Many exotic invasive species are polyploidy. That’s a big time adaptive trait of noxious weeds that can be hashed around another time but these plants can and do mutate (many are now fire adaptive and chemical resistant thanks to gene mutations). Another lovely adaptive trait shared by many of these plants is their ability to set seed. One Purple Loosestrife plant can pump out over a million seeds. Here’s what’s interesting, many stressed plants can and will redirect all of their energies to seed production to ensure their survival. It is as if they know they are dying and are going for that final push before they are exhausted to perpetuate their species. Unfortunately, there are people who lovingly nurture and water these plants in desert regions. Once that plant sets seed; wind, water, and critters help disperse it. So while it is true that many ecosystems will be inhospitable to an exotic invasive species, given all that we know regarding seed dispersal is it really prudent to continue promoting the worst of the worst plants being that the next County over by bird’s flight might not be as inhospitable? http://www.issg.org/

Quoting:
Buddleia most definitely can not survive here without assistance. Nor can the oh-so-dreaded mimosas. Good luck even attempting to grow something like loosestrife, ain't gonna happen. Foxglove? Sure, if you want to stand over it with a hose all day.
Buddleja lindleyana, Buddleja davidii, as well as other Buddleja spp. are getting all the assistance they need to not only survive but thrive because we Americans have a fascination with all that is exotic. There are people willing to stand over them with a hose all day and they are doing just that which in part is why the maps provided by the Feds show them as having naturalized- http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=BUDDL2 and that Mimosa Tree has naturalized too- http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ALBIZ
Quoting:
Buddleia, mimosa, foxglove, loostrife.......those barely survive in gardens and don't stand a chance in the wild
They can and do survive in the wild because good intentioned people repeatedly underestimate a pathetically feeble weakly looking plant’s ability to reproduce by setting seed that ends up in hospitable ecosystems. One thing is for certain, there is a lag factor associated with these maps. As time goes on and data regarding naturalization of some of the worst of the worst species becomes available, the area of the maps infested will expand. Please know that I'm not singling you two out by quoting you, your sentiments were so representative of my own personal belief system from 10 years ago that it was uncanny.

Ecosystems change but we humans are accelerating that change and when we unwittingly choose to stand over a plant with a hose (I've done this), the unlikely can occur. I don’t believe it to be unreasonable to express concern regarding the impact of exotic invasive species. Fear of invasive species is not misguided once we learn more about their impact.

http://www.issues.org/13.4/schmit.htm

I truly believe in this statement, “The tendency of man’s nature to good is like the tendency of water to flow downward” –Meng Tse
It is for this reason that I would be a proponent of a non-regulatory approach to these issues in which educating the public is pushed to the forefront so that these very complex issues can be discussed without all the polarization of sides. We all call this planet home.
http://www.brown.edu/Research/EnvStudies_Theses/full9900/mhall/IPlants/Non-Regulatory.html

Pahrump, NV(Zone 8b)

I don't grow anything on our list of invasives, in fact several were on my property initially and they have all been removed. Notice our list is quite different overall than in many places.

Spring Mountain- I'm very much afraid is going to be destroyed without any assistance from gardeners. They are currently planning to turn it into a major tourist attraction complete with paved roads and RV camping areas. I'd go see it now if interested, much will be gone or altered within the next 2 years.

You missed the preserve in the Amargosa valley which has been incorporated into the Death Valley national park system. That one may go the way of the dinosaur should the Yucca Mountain project get the green light...can you say groundwater contamination?

You will notice that per the USDA maps mimosas do not exist anywhere in the state. On the other hand they also claim some things do not exist here which do, and others are here which are not. Frankly, people here are not great fans of the federal anything....Mr. Cheney's recent speech in which he refers to our geographic location, and I quote, "is unpopulated, barren and lacking in natural resources". Pretty much sums up the treatment we've come to expect.

I will now return to my unpopulated, barren, resourceless, rabbithole and go feed some Gambel's Quail (which incidentally I'd wish you best of luck trying to shoot from a roadside LOL).



This message was edited Mar 4, 2006 2:49 PM

Okeechobee, FL(Zone 10a)

Calalilly, Please don't think these things that you listed won't grow there in Bayview.
That nasty potatoe vine may not grow in your yard, but I guarantee it will grow where you don't want it. There is a beautiful 40 foot circle of Indigenous Azeleas acrosss the street. Are they loaded with beautiful bright purple blooms? No!
They are strangled with air potato and southern brambles. I found a gift of a potato beween two fence wires in my yard and told the "gifter" to never return to my property again.
Please be grateful for what God gave Texas and don't encourage these terrible Bullies.
Sidney

Deep South Coastal, TX(Zone 10a)

I planted an air potato two years ago, the first year it got about a foot tall. It is dead. I have not seen any here anywhere, but the strangler vines(milkweed family), love in a puff, old man's beard and other vines are pests to me. The tamarisk tree and cottonwood/tallow tree(popcorn) are bad. I pull up seedlings all the time from my neighbor's tree(that she won't cut down even though she knows it is a trash tree). Nurseries sell tallow trees and tamarisk trees.
There are no buddleias here, they will not grow, but an out of place native plant has completely ruined hundreds of wetland acres in Olmito. It is now a baren swamp full of morning glory bush(ipomoea carnea).
Water hyacinth costs the water district thousands of dollars to remove and they are still losing the battle. Some idiot intentionally planted water lilies in the Bayview water district resacas and they can't get rid of them because any little piece of tuber grows a new lily. They suspect a nursery owner, but can't prove it.
Someone brought in diseased coconut palms and caused a virus in our native palms, and almost wiped them out. The fire ants have disturbed our native ants causing a decline in the horned toad/lizard population(horned toads eat harvester ants almost exclusively).
All I was saying is that things that cause problems in one area, aren't a problem all over the country. I have not seen one single mimosa plant here........and my job takes me all over the county. I know water hyacinths are not a problem in areas where temperatures go below freezing, but they are horrible here. If I see a foxglove growing anywhere, I'll let you know!

Okeechobee, FL(Zone 10a)

They do get my dander up for sure. Am thinking of trecking to Texas RU, as I'm a native and like to hear my native tongue every now and then.
Sidney

Deep South Coastal, TX(Zone 10a)

Sidney, I know what you mean! When I see the tallow trees for sale in Home Depot(and other nurseries) it really irritates me. And don't even get me started on castor beans!
I was at a man's house and he had illegally imported coconut palms from PR. He didn't know if they had a virus, probably didn't care. He just wanted his coconut trees.

Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

Calalily and DanaDW:

By your statements you are making the overall point of others debating here. Just because a plant is well-behaved or struggles to survive for you, doesn't mean you shouldn't consider that it IS invasive (or potentially so) elsewhere. The "you" is generic; it applies to anyone, not specific posters here.

You've probably already read this thread (see contributions), but others reading here may not have:

http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/575124/

What I'm getting at is: use of plants that are known invasives (especially in their region), especially by those that KNOW of the problem, sets examples for those who know nothing about the issue, or worse, for those who wish to not be inconvenienced with any semblance of conscience about growing/distributing these problem plants.

People read about plants, people want plants, people trade plants. That's how things move from relative harmlessness to ecological extirpators.

The postings above reflect quite a deep understanding of the issues and definitions of terms. Use of plants that are known problems elsewhere, maybe unwittingly, gives tacit support to the actions of criminals who would plant invasive species in a municipal water supply. I can imagine the statements in defense of the action:

•It didn't grow like that in my yard
•It always died in my flower bed
•I couldn't grow it well enough to make any money (so now I'll get paid to harvest/remove it from the resacas, resell it, and make money coming and going

I'm not looking to harp on anyone's previous statements, only drawing a parallel.

I don't expect to change any entrenched opinions, but if one or two see some value in this position, there'll be that many fewer potential problems for posterity.

Atmore, AL(Zone 8b)

Calalily, you have seen Tallow trees for sale at home depot? They are one of the worst trees to deal with here. Florida has made it illegal to sell them (Alabama should too). Man, that would make me mad to see that too.

Deep South Coastal, TX(Zone 10a)

Yes, they had tallow trees for sale. I couldn't believe it! They said "fast growing shade tree." They should also say "plant in the dark so your neighbors don't see what you're planting!"

Okeechobee, FL(Zone 10a)

Whoa Nelly, the mighty Cottonwood is not a tallow tree!
http://davesgarden.com/pf/search.php?search_text=cottonwood+tree&images_prefs=both&Search=Search
isn't anywhere near http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/32151/index.html
I just wrote the only nursery advertising them for sale this email;

For God's sake please quit selling these trees!!!!!!!!!
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/32151/index.html
Please read these reports and don't add to the proublem.
You have a good rating with Dave's garden Watchdog.
We think you want to be responsible nurserymen.
Please quit selling these immediately.
Thank you,
Sidney

Deep South Coastal, TX(Zone 10a)

There goes common names again, lol. The tree at HD was "Chinese Tallow Tree" also called "popcorn tree" and I've heard some people here call them cottonwood. Heart shaped leaves, seeds blow all over the place....and every one of them must come up! I will be pulling them out again this summer. They grow 5-6 ft tall in one year. The Brazillian pepper tree is another pest, but folks keep planting them and I keep pulling them out.

Hughesville, MO(Zone 5a)

Well, I'm suprised Blk. Walnuts, Redbuds, most oaks and maple trees, Osage Orange, both black and honey locusts and many others have not been put on the list. Good grief, we do want something besides bare ground, concrete, and artificial turf outside our homes.

It took me years to get one or 2 buddleai d. to live thru the winter and even longer to get one seed from a 50 year old Mimosa to survive. Now we do have a lot of Mimosa and I kill any we don't want. Giant Reed Grass? It is grown in Botanical Gardens and it took me 3 trys over a period of 3 years to get even a small clump.

Quoting:
Well, I'm suprised Blk. Walnuts, Redbuds, most oaks and maple trees, Osage Orange, both black and honey locusts and many others have not been put on the list. Good grief, we do want something besides bare ground, concrete, and artificial turf outside our homes.

It took me years to get one or 2 buddleai d. to live thru the winter and even longer to get one seed from a 50 year old Mimosa to survive. Now we do have a lot of Mimosa and I kill any we don't want. Giant Reed Grass? It is grown in Botanical Gardens and it took me 3 trys over a period of 3 years to get even a small clump.
Please help me understand what you were trying to say.

Hughesville, MO(Zone 5a)

I'm saying that just because something does overly well in one area does not mean it will everywhere or that because something did not grow here before some foreign entity introduced it some way or another should not mean everyone everywhere has to give it up. Many individuals and agencies are not known for being reasonable. This is just one more example.

Black Locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) is on several lists. The Norway Maple (Acer platanoides) and the Sawtooth Oak (Quercus acutissima) are also on several invasive species lists but that still leaves hundreds of other Oaks and Maples out there that have never exhibited invasive characteristics.

I would definitely agree with you that many plants don't exactly thrive in some areas. Unfortunately, many noxious weeds and invasive species have a built in "work around" for just these types of situations.

Quoting:
many stressed plants can and will redirect all of their energies to seed production to ensure their survival. It is as if they know they are dying and are going for that final push before they are exhausted to perpetuate their species… Once that plant sets seed; wind, water, and critters help disperse it. So while it is true that many ecosystems will be inhospitable to an exotic invasive species, given all that we know regarding seed dispersal is it really prudent to continue promoting the worst of the worst plants being that the next County over by bird’s flight might not be as inhospitable?
I think what I was trying to say in the above is that just because people who grow these plants don't see the spontaneous seedlings, doesn't mean they aren't out there. And then there is another wild card that aggravates the situation... polyploidism. Many invasive species are polyploids.

Back at the beginning of this thread sofer posted “SAVE THE BUTTERFLY BUSH”. I feel relatively confident he was joking but I’m getting a little frustrated lately with the very small percentage of people who live around me who aren’t joking as well as the chain stores in my area actively marketing and selling plants that are documented as being highly invasive when more “reasonable” plants could be marketed and offered for sale.

A sizeable amount of scientific data irrefutably classifying Buddleia davidii as an invasive species is out there for the taking. If MaryMD7 chooses to remove her Butterfly Bush because it was planted "before I knew better and I deadhead, but I know it's bad and it should go", I personally applaud her for researching the plant and choosing to remove that particular species from her property but she certainly doesn’t have to. It’s her property and she presumably pays the property taxes on it and to the best of my knowledge, there is currently no law on the books for her State dictating she has to remove it.

I don’t applaud people who remove exotic plants just to be PC claiming they are doing so for the “greater good” because they are not native and need to go. This supports your comments, "just because something does overly well in one area does not mean it will everywhere or that because something did not grow here before some foreign entity introduced it some way or another should not mean everyone everywhere has to give it up". A small percentage of people are conscientiously choosing to classify all introduced species as "bad". Where’s the scientific data stating that all introduced species need to go? It doesn’t exist. This school of thought defies logic in that there are literally thousands of introduced species out there that don’t wreak havoc in the environment that some refuse to acknowledge actually stay put where planted thus respecting property lines. I think these are the people you were referring to when you said, “Many individuals and agencies are not known for being reasonable”. Many who choose to remove invasives struggle with the removal process. I know I always seem to get hung up with the price of the plant. I paid for it and wouldn’t have purchased it if I didn’t like it so it stings me in the wallet when I determine a plant I bought and planted in the ground has to go. We’re only human and many of these plants are absolutely beautiful and when we don’t see the spontaneous seedlings, destroying a plant is a difficult decision to make. Sometimes even when we see the spontaneous seedlings, destroying a plant is a difficult decision to make. The fact remains that the vast majority of people have never been afforded the luxury of viewing spontaneous seedlings in natural environments. Most unfortunately, some people could care less if the offspring of their plants ends up on other people’s properties or in natural environments. Out of sight, out of mind.

Chesapeake Beach, MD

Well said Equil!

I love native plants and have personally placed more emphasis on them in my gardens, but I am by no means one of those people who say no exotics period. There are many wonderful, well-behaved exotics that are lovely additions to our gardens and landscapes. And there are also some exotics that are well-behaved and appropriate in some regions and not in others -- perhaps another way of saying that not every exotic plant merits a big red "do not plant anywhere in the country" sticker on it, just as there are a few native plants (like robinia) that are exotic invasives outside their native range in north america.

The problem isn't exotics per se -- it is exotic invasives. Likewise, the problem really isn't whether those exotics are thugs and invasive in YOUR garden (still a problem, but a different problem) -- it is whether they spread in natural areas to the detriment of native flora and biodiversity more generally.

So, while I unquestionably have the right to grow b. davidii since it hasn't YET made a noxious weed statute, and while b. davidii certainly isn't invasive in my garden itself, the science (and my own eyes observing the woods, fields and ditches around me)increasingly shows that it is a problem exotic invasive in my region of the country. Should I continue to cultivate it? Probably not. I've pulled one already.

You know, I have grown to love native plants. I love a lot of exotic plants too.

Bear with me here for a moment while I vent. When my grandmother was a little girl, they had a dog. They never put the dog on a leash. Leashes were basically unheard of and nobody used them. Oh what a difference 90 years has made. Today, most areas have leash laws. I know my neighbors certainly wouldn’t want my dogs running loose. Not that my dogs are biters and not that my dogs aren’t fixed but when they pee they leave a huge brown spot in the lawn and when they poop they leave the equivalent of a cow pie that somebody has to pick up. These are my dogs, and cleaning up after them is my responsibility. Back when I was a little girl, we had cats. Keeping cats inside was for “city folk”. Leashes for cats were unheard of and nobody used them. Today, my County has leash laws for cats. Oh what a difference 45 years has made. I know most of my neighbors would not want my cats running loose to hang out underneath their bird feeders or to pee and poop in their plantings and kid’s sandboxes. My cats are my responsibility and I keep them as indoor pets for their safety as well as to ensure they don’t become a nuisance to my neighbors. We have leash laws for dogs and leash laws for cats and I’m afraid that in the next 20 years when my kids grow up and have children of their own, they’ll be reminiscing about the days when they were kids and nobody had ever heard of leash laws for plants. The sad reality is that my neighbors are planting some of the worst of the worst and those plants are repeatedly ending up on my property and I am having to “pick up” after their parent plants. I keep my mouth shut where I live in favor of repeatedly pulling up the Burning Bush, Purple Loosestrife, Garlic Mustard, Norway Maple, Miscanthus, Dame’s Rocket, Shasta and Oxe-Eye Daisies, Queen Anne’s Lace, Calleryana Pear, Russian Olive, White Mulberry, and most recently Japanese Barberry seedlings because I have to live here and there’s no sense even suggesting that any of my neighbors remove their beloved plants but it is getting real old real fast and I’ve got better things to do with my time than to be forced to continuously scout out spontaneous seedlings from their parent plants. Now for the devastating blow- Across the main road from me, two new subdivisions will be rising up out of the earth. I stopped in (curiosity) at a sales trailer they have at another development in the area to see what the homes they would be building across from me looked like. Very attractive homes. I was offered a folder of brochures to take home with me. I brought the sales packet home to be able to show my husband the floor plans and frontal elevations of the nice homes that were going up. I looked at the floor coverings available in the packages and I looked at the cabinets and vanities and lighting offered in the packages and it was looking very good. It was then that I caught the landscape package that came with each home. I was so upset tears were in my eyes when I read what the developer was offering. It was almost as if the developer had perused the Fed’s Invasive Species List and picked which plants would be offered to buyers from Invasive Species Lists. Each buyer gets their choice of any combination of plants from the list not to exceed $10,000. There were many native Ash offered as well as a few native Oaks, Redbuds, and I also noticed a few Viburnums as well as Diabolo Ninebark. The rest of the list included several Norway Maple cultivars ('Drummondii', ‘Crimson King’, 'Emerald Queen', “Summershade’), Sawtooth Oak, White Mulberry, Privet, Burning Bushes, European and Japanese Barberry, several Callery Pear cultivars (‘Bradford’, ‘New Bradford’, ‘Redspire’, ‘Cleveland Select’), Russian Olives, and European Mountain Ash. Buyers get a choice of ground covers which include Vinca, English Ivy, and the Ajuga cultivar “Chocolate Chip’. There are a growing number of people who do not want to “pick up” after other people’s dogs or cats or kids or plants. I can't begin to tell you how very upset I was when I read the list of plants offered because I know that plant material is going to end up over here by my house as well as in the Forest Preserve where I volunteer removing these types of plants. It will only be a matter of time.

Quoting:
It is for this reason that I would be a proponent of a non-regulatory approach to these issues in which educating the public is pushed to the forefront so that these very complex issues can be discussed without all the polarization of sides.
In light of what is evidently going in across the street from me and given this area has several thousand acres of natural areas as well as being an upper watershed of the Des Plaines River Basin, I am re-thinking the statement I made. Perhaps it is time for some of the worst of the worst to be officially banned in my State. I feel beaten. I work so hard clearing my property of exotic invasives. I have been trying not to whine too much about some of these exotic invasive plants but the heartbreak and extra work they have caused me has given me reason to re visit gardening. I still enjoy it, but right now I am envisioning lots and lots of effort getting destroyed here once these homes go up across the street with their “landscape packages”. I can’t clear out what I’ve already got here fast enough to replant disturbed areas and now there will be several hundred new construction homes going up and excavation is going to start here in the very near future??? And that's just the one subdivision. I have no idea what landscape packages the other subdivision will be offering. I am really wondering if it is worth all my time and expense. Workshops to clear invasives from public land will be gearing up very soon. Volunteers will be asked to help. I will be one of the volunteers asked to help. Right about now I am totally demoralized. Just when I was making headway over here on my property. You have no idea how much disturbed ground I have from removing exotic invasives. I’m feeling like a sitting duck.

Atmore, AL(Zone 8b)

I know very well how you feel. I cannot begin to tell how many weekends I have spent trying to clear out Chinese tallow, Chinese privet, camphor, jap. honeysuckle, etc.,etc.,etc. I work manual labor all week long and the last thing I feel like doing on my time off is clearing invasives from my property. It's even more frustrating during the spring and summer because the snakes are crawling and the poison ivy is growing, so I can't even get access to the invasives. So I just have to let them do thier thing until next fall (after they have produced thousands more seeds). I get aggravated with my neighbor every time I look at his property. He lets the invasives run rampant, so I will always have to pull seedlings. The sad thing is, he probably doesn't even know that they are exotic invasives. I guarantee I could ask 100 people around here about Chinese privet, and about 95% of them would not even know that it is not a native plant.

Wauconda, IL

I always thought that your right to do what you want ends at your property line. And if what you want to do spills onto someone else's property....you shouldn't get to do it any more!

The only way we will get the green industry to start acting responsibly is regulation. Just call me sick and tired of pulling hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of the neighbors buckthorn seedlings out of my yard every year. Or the Japanese Honeysuckle. Or the Wiegela. Or the barberry.

Citra, FL(Zone 9a)

After reading this thread, I feel demoralized as well, and I've not even started to address invasives here, mainly because I'm learning what is here and what are invaders.

Our three acres are covered in black locust.They just bloomed, snowed their seeds, and are rapidly rooting in the spring rain we've had. They root fast, even on my car. I've spread hundreds of the seeds between here and the coast because they were plastered to my car.

Huge areas of purple loosestrife are getting ready to bloom. I'll hack as much as I can before that happens. I didn't know until last month they were a problem (thanks to being part of DG).

Ivy looked interesting when we moved in two years ago, climbing up the dogwood, pepperwood, and old tree stumps, but then I soon realized it was killing the trees and rapidly crawling down the hillside. I've at least hacked it off at the bottoms of the trees nearest the house. It's helped down huge locust trees in the wintertime.

Butterfly Bush grows wild here...I don't know if it is a native or not yet. I planted two, not knowing they were so terrible. So far my dogs have deadheaded them for me....before they actually flowered.

Miscanthus is a problem? And Russian Olive? Why did the forestry service (or whichever governmental agency) sell Russian Olives to me in Colorado when I lived on forty acres?

There is no way I'll physically or financially be able to remove these invaders, at least not for many years, and I live in the middle of a wild area, with an overall poor population that would not be able to deal with them either.

The more I know, the more I know I don't know, and the more worried I get about doing stupid things...like buying and planting butterfly bushes. In fact, one just arrived from Bluestone Perennials just last Friday. Drat.

Ignorance is bliss....

Deep South Coastal, TX(Zone 10a)

I passed a fairly new house the other day...........they'd lined the property with chinese tallow trees. They had to come from a nursery, they were almost identical size, about 6 -8 ft tall.
I'm still pulling seedlings from my neighbor's tree.

Chinese Tallow? And people wonder why we're probably headed smack dab into plant regulation beyond our wildest dreams.

Atmore, AL(Zone 8b)

If they were in Florida they could be fined or arrested for planting Tallow trees. They are a huge problem for me here.

They're a huge problem in Texas too. That's what I don't get, why keep selling them?

Citra, FL(Zone 9a)

Capitalism at it's best. It makes someone money in several arenas. Growing and selling, then eradicating. Call me cynical.

Well, you can call me cynical too then because I am the one who called it double dipping. It goes something like this- Oh here buy this beautiful shrub/tree/perennial. Oops, it's banned? No kidding. If only we would have known we would have never sold it. Here, just go and dig that bad plant up and we'll sell you this nice replacement that is safe.

Citra, FL(Zone 9a)

I forgot about that last leg of the cycle - another sale. (plus the tools/chemicals/services to destroy the first one).

Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

Capitalism at its best is supplying the demand, especially hitting the niche that derives from governmental intervention, and overcoming the obstacles thrown up. Capitalism at its worst is selling things because there isn't a law against it. Citizen apathy in participatory government allows the worst of all forms of politics.

I am no fan of idiots who continue to produce known invasive exotics (in the true definition of the term, not garden weeds) nor of the equally nonsensical who insist that it is their right to plant anything anywhere. These two groups deserve the governmental hammer (laws and penalties) that will befall them when they refuse to participate voluntarily.

These people remind of those who believe it is fine to pour their used motor oil down drains; to continue to use lead paint; to throw trash out their car windows, over a embankment, or into a sinkhole.

When the laws are finally passed, and the perpetrators caught, tried, and sentenced...I hope they get community service like happens to the graffiti-ists that deface public property. They get to clean up other peoples' messes around here (toilets, parking lots, other graffiti). I have just the place for them to repay society. It really is too good for them -- fresh air, birds chirping, sounds of children playing, splashing running water. It is Louisville's park lands, and these folks will get to start with Ailanthus, Alliaria, Euonymus, Hedera, Lonicera, Morus alba, Rosa multiflora, and Vinca.

And things will improve.

Ah, consequences for one's actions. Now there's a novel concept. I'm sure all of us common folk working under all the land stewards would love to have some help cleaning up some of these messes on public land.

Citra, FL(Zone 9a)

Bravo, VibernumValley!
I stand corrected - capitalism at it's best means the consumer is educated and participatory in the workings of the world around them....

And being a bonified, forever-since-I-was-born, save-the-world ,environmentally-protective, rabble-rouser that I am, I say, "LEARN, TEACH, BOYCOTT!"

It's all part of the same soapbox: we're all connected.



Uh oh... ;)

Wauconda, IL

"I don’t applaud people who remove exotic plants just to be PC claiming they are doing so for the “greater good” because they are not native and need to go. This supports your comments, "just because something does overly well in one area does not mean it will everywhere or that because something did not grow here before some foreign entity introduced it some way or another should not mean everyone everywhere has to give it up". A small percentage of people are conscientiously choosing to classify all introduced species as "bad"."

Equil, I peronally haven't seen anyone here say that all introduced species are bad news. I agree with Viburnum Valley in that you shouldn't knowingly plant something that is invasive in your area. I love my snapdragons and Iris. Balloonflower. Tomatoes, lettuce and green beans. Huechera and pulmonaria. Toad lillies. I have lots of non-native stuff. I just make sure it's not invasive, because I know more now than I did even 5 years ago.

I applaud other people who give up their cherished and beautiful invasive plants that they have nurtured and fretted over, for the "greater good"...they're better men than I am, and if they love their plants, it's actually difficult, mentally, to put that spade in and dig it up. I understand why they planted them, because I've planted some of the same stuff myself. I don't think there's anything wrong with doing something for the "greater good." It's not PC, it's honorable.

I planted lots of bad stuff when I was ignorant of the ramifications of planting bad stuff. Even though I have been involved in restoring prairies and woodlands for going on 30 years, on and off...I didn't study stuff back then as much as I do now. And, to give myself a tiny break...information on invasives and what was invasive and the damage they do was not easily come by. We just cut down shrubs (mostly that autumn olive crud)and burned and collected seed. The benefits of burning prairies was not even that well understood at the time.

It is going to hurt a lot to dig up and dispose of my patch of yellow flag Iris, even though I faithfully deadhead the things. I WILL feel guilty. I have decided that they are going to go away, even though I love irises. I'm going to let them bloom out, take lots of pictures, deadhead them, and then they're gone. Something in me has a hard time killing healthy plants...but, I must. If I'm going to talk the talk, I gotta walk the walk.

It will hurt even worse when I have to dig up and dispose of my buddleia, because it makes these gigantic white blooms about a foot long every growing season, all growing season. I faithfully deadhead that thing, too. I might not be able to make myself do it this year, to be honest, but I will do it. In the meantime, and ever since I've had the thing, I will continue to make sure it doesn't make seeds ever. I will take lots of photos, and dig it up next March, before it has emerged from dormancy. Believe me, I will feel guilty as all get out for doing so.

I wish I could find a native shrub that had even similar properties. I was thinking Clethra, but it gets too big for that spot, and it's too full sun for a Fothergilla. I'm open to suggestions, LOL!

This message was edited May 28, 2006 4:16 PM

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