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Our resilent [vinyl] floor is to be replaced under a manufacturers warrenty, but the warranty does not cover replacing a subfloor [1/4 plywood, whatever].
The warranty covers other labor and materials.
The flooring retailer whom we have contacted to do the work states that our subfloor must be removed, that they do not do such work and it is not covered by the manufacturer's warranty. They have advised us to get a contractor to make the floor read for the vinyl replacement.
Our dishwasher was replaced and we were told that it had a leak. The seven year old vinyl began showing stains near the washer which we assume was the cause of the stains. The people who say we must replace the
have not cut into the old vinly nor made a moisture test. They have walked over it stating that it seems squashy, etc. The original people who did the work are out of business.
Should we accept the conclusion about the need for replacing plywood subfloor, or would you recommend that we contact another vinyl retailer?
A subfloor is almost always 3/4" plywood or boards,maybe with 1/4" plywood underlayment on top of that. If the dishwasher leaked, it's possible, even likely that some of the plywood has delaminated. If the floor doesn't feel soft to you, maybe they're just playing hardball to avoid fulfilling their warranty obligation, or maybe just protecting themselves. You know, maybe they're concerned that someone else might associate a spongy floor with their company.
You shouldn't have to replace the whole floor, just any rotten parts. If another retailer might honor the warranty, give it a try. They might say the same thing, or maybe you could tell them you don't care if the floor is squashy.
The hard part about this is it might be rotten under the cabinets. Can you see this floor from underneath, maybe from a basement?
I'm not surprised that your floor warranty only covers the vinyl and not the subfloor, that seems reasonable since that's the part that the manufacturer made and could be held responsible for. And it also doesn't surprise me that the flooring retailer who will install the new vinyl doesn't do subfloors. I also don't think they were trying to mislead you by telling you the squashy floor needed to be replaced--when the floor gives like that and you know there was a leak there, that's the conclusion that most people would come to. Since these guys don't deal with subfloors in any way, they probably don't have the correct tools/training to assess the water damage, so I wouldn't worry about the fact that they didn't get out the moisture meter, etc--that's not their job so they did the right thing by telling you to call a contractor.
It's very likely that the section of subfloor that got wet during your leak is rotten and will need to be replaced, but the good news is unless the leak spread out over your whole room, it's also very possible that you only need to replace a small portion of the subfloor near the leak rather than the whole thing. If you're handy at all, that should be a relatively simple DIY project, just cut out the damaged piece, cut out a new piece of plywood to fit, and nail it in place, then use wood filler or something to even out the small gap between old and new plywood (you do want to make sure the surface between old and new is very smooth, otherwise the vinyl won't be smooth when it's installed).
The other thing I would question is on your warranty...if the subfloor was damaged during the dishwasher leak because the vinyl was defective in some way, then I think the manufacturer could be held responsible for replacing the subfloor too, but if the vinyl wasn't defective then you're probably stuck.
The trickey part of this is that the local floor company we have contacted has stated that they do not put in sub-floors. The manufacturer's form has a place for, "New Underlayment [includes cost of material & labor] full spread". Elsewhere, manufacturer states that new underlayment would not have to be replaced for one type of their flooring [we don't have that type] as the old vinyl could be removed without doing damage to the existing underlayment. This is leaving me with the impression that the replacement of underlayment is covered by the warranty, but the floor people whom we have contacted are using the term, "sub-floor".
The floor people we have been talking to are telling us that the contractor we hire and pay for should have the floor completely level, sanded, etc. ready for them to lay the new vinyl. It seems to me that I am paying someone else to remove the old vinyl and underlayment [not the carpet people who would be reimbursed by the manufacturer for removal of vinyl and getting the floor ready].
It seems to me that I need to contact the vinyl manufacturer and find out if they do reimburse for replacing of the underlayment which their paperwork to me implies they do, and with that find out exactly what the local carpet people mean when they are telling me that the vinyl manufature will not pay a new subfloor while the paper
work from the manufacturer says they will pay for new underlayment.
The salesman of the local carpet people doesn't appear to be the happies person in town on this matter. We have worked with him on his schedule, made only one trip to his store and he has made only one trip to our home for measurement. Their technition came one time to appraise us on the "subfloor?" problem. The local flooring people are supposed to obtain the material direct from the manufacturer's claims dept. Could it be that this is a commision free job for the salesman?
How do I determine what is sub-floor and what is underlayment? The manufacture says they will not be responsible for excess sub-floor preparation and other points which don't apply here.
I think subfloor and underlayment are two different things. The subfloor is the plywood or cement slab that forms the base for your floor, then underlayment is something that is put between the subfloor and the flooring you're installing, either to create padding or to even out the surface or to give you something better to attach your flooring to. The case where I'm familiar with these terms is in the context of floating floors made of laminate/engineered wood--the underlayment is this layer of sort of padding stuff that goes between the wood/cement and the new floorboards. I have no idea if an underlayment is something that's typically done with vinyl flooring or not.
Have you considered the option of just having them install new vinyl overtop of the old vinyl? I've seen this done before and while it may not be quite as ideal of a way to install it, it might be easier. Your vinyl surface needs to be really smooth though, if it's not you might be able to buy something to apply to the surface to smooth it out--seems to me I saw something like that on some home improvement show. I wouldn't recommend the install overtop approach if you do indeed have rotting/damaged subfloor, that is something that should definitely be fixed and if you do that then the surface probably won't be level enough and you'll have to peel off the old vinyl.
Yeah, like in the first line of my first post, subfloor is almost always 3/4" plywood, (older houses have similar thickness boards), or concrete like ecrane3 said. If you walk into any lumber yard and ask for underlayment, they'll show you 1/4" (or 5/16ths) luaun plywood. I can't swear to the spelling, it's southeast Asian wood related to mahogony (plant files?) cheap stuff. Once or twice I've seen and used a new product that was ground corn byproducts and glue, but almost universally in a kitchen especially, underlayment is1/4" plywood, occasionally masonite. It's used, like ecrane said, to even irregularities in the subfloor. It has no knots, very smooth, you'd probably recognize it if you saw it. Lots of hollow-core interior doors are made of luaun. (pronounced loo - on)
It's possible both sub-floor and underlayment are damaged, but the usual scenario is the underlayment takes the beating and the subfloor's OK. I wonder if you have a lawyer freind or maybe a state consumer protection board that might go to bat for you. One more thing, the stuff ecrane is referring to is called floor leveling compound, simple to use. It's like plaster, runs out to find level, dries quick, and sands easily. Good luck, let us know how things go
PS Any way to determine the condition yourself?
I don't need a lawyer as there is no fuss. I just need to find a local vinyl retailer that handles my manufacturer's product that also does sub-floor replacement, if needed. The local and largest retailer here tells me they don't do sub-floors and even if my manufacturer will pay for removing the old vinyl and underlayment [which I believe is a felt like product] they don't want to do this, then make a final determination if sub-floor replacement is necessary and to what extent as they would entail sending their men out two times, the second time being after the sub-floor has been replaced and is in proper condition for their application of new underlayment and vinyl
There is no fuss or problem between myself and the manufacturer. From day one they said they would replace the vinyl and underlayment and pay the labor. After walking over the floor the local flooring retailer said that I would have to get a contractor to remove the vinyl, underlayment and replace the entire sub-floor before they would lay the vinyl as they did not do sub-floors. Also, they said they would not send a workman out to remove the old vinyl [covered by warranty] then arrive at a determination of how much sub-flooring needed replacing by another contractor. They wanted me to have all this done and just have a new sub-floor ready for their application of underlayment and vinyl. All sanded, etc. ready for them to lay the new vinyl.
I'm going to look around and try and find another vinyl installer that is willing to come out and remove the vinyl, then if needed let me pay for whatever sub-flooring is needed [all or part], then proceed to install new vinyl with new underlayment. I feel like the local flooring company just doesn't want to fool with this job where they will have no mark up on it other than the labor mark up.
As to the leak in the dish washer. I never new it was leaking until it was replaced because of a breakdown that made it not worth fixing. I had my clothes washer checked. It had a small leak, but no visual damage to the old vinyl and I doubt this leak got under the vinyl as the clothes washer is installed over the vinyl while the dishwasher was under the cabinet and it's leakage had a path to get under the vinyl and that is where the discoloration of the vinyl appeared. The dicoloration is limited to just in front of the dish washer.
We were told by the vinyl manufacture that water damage was covered this time, but that if there was a second circumstance of water damage there would be no coverage. So, we purchased a new dishwasher and clothes washer, for correction of the source of our problem and a new refrigerator and clothes dryer for visual purposes. I just don't want to contract for an entire sub-floor without having the opportunity of examining the sub-floor. So, again I am going to look for someone who is willing to withhold judgement on an entire subfloor until after the old vinyl has been removed which should be at the expense of the vinyl manufacturer. They offered that to me, I didn't ask for it. The local flooring people just said they wern't going to send their men out to remove the old vinyl then come back at a later date after the sub-floor has been replaced to do only the laying of the new vinyl. Someone has suggested that removal of the old vinyl might take three men one half of a day. This would be at my expense per the local flooring installers.
The way this thing is going our kitchen will be out of commission far to long in the unnecessary complexity of the matter.
The felt is not called underlayment, it sounds like 'builder's paper' or 'roofer's felt', not expensive at all. The flooring dealer's installers definitely have to deal with felt or paper.
I find it extremely hard to believe the entire subfloor needs replacement. The whole thing should not take more than a couple days. I'd try to get the manufacturer to press their dealer to get busy...
You may end up having to pay something if you want the floor people to come out twice, once to remove the vinyl and then once to install the new stuff after the subfloor's fixed (if needed). The mfg warranty is probably very limited in what they'll reimburse the installer for and coming out twice may cost more in labor than what they'll get reimbursed. Or even if it wouldn't cost them more than what the mfg would reimburse them for, I'm sure the mfg won't reimburse them until the job's totally done, so then they're in a tough position if you drag your feet and take months to get the subfloor fixed, or if you end up changing your mind and putting in ceramic tile or having someone else install new vinyl after they've done the work to rip the old stuff up, they would then have no way to get reimbursed for the tear-out work that they did. I would talk with them--if it's the first case, then you're going to have to pay if you want the work done, but if it's the second case they might be willing to work something out where you pay something up front for the vinyl removal so they're not stuck if you back out before finishing the job, and then assuming you proceed with them for the whole job, they could refund that amount at the end when the manufacturer reimburses them.
Things are improving. Talked to another retailer of the manufacturer who suggested I work directly with their sub-contractor who would remove the vinyl and underlayment and install replacement underlayment as required. Manufacturer advised me that they considered the underlayment the 1/4" plywood. The sub-floor would be previous layers of vinyl, the real wood floor, etc. which they would not be responsible for cost of removal or replacement]. There is a place in their proposal form for cost of handling required underlayment.
Manufacturer said they would have no problem with my directly using the installing sub-contractor their retailer uses. So, I see the this sub-contractor completing the manufactures requirement for pre-approved labor rates, removing the vinyl as underlayment as required and replacing the the same all in one trip.
I'll say this manufacturer has been most flexible and you people have helped me understand the task ahead. I talked to another flooring man earlier who would have been able to remove the vinyl and plywood. He opined that he sensed softness only near the location of the old dishwasher, not the entire floor. [I am assuming that there is plywood under the vinyl, but for all I know maybe the present vinyl was placed directly on top of an old vinyl floor, and I'm hoping the softness near the dishwasher is underlayment and not the old vinyl floor. I'll know soon enough.
I am really not excited about the original retailer that I talked to who at best suggested that I just call them when the old vinyl was removed, new plywood properly sanded was down, then they would install the vinyl that would then have to be ordered. Now, we will have the vinyl here and ready for the man I will meet with tomorrow who will handle the entire job.
Thanks to all of you and the cooperation of the manufacturer things are beginning to move.
What was the outcome of this situation? I am interested because I believe I have a similar problem. In one room, some of my vinyl tiles have cracked, and in another room I found tiny beads of moisture coming up between tiles. (The moisture is only present intermittently.) The floor does not seem even near the cracked tiles. I have been wondering whether I have to hire a home inspector to tell me what is wrong. I pulled up a tile in the spot where I found the beads of moisture. I seem to be down to a concrete base, so I wonder whether this room is built on a slab. If that is the case, is the slab cracked and will a major repair be necessary?
In the other room, I am pretty sure there are boards underneath the vinyl tiles, so I imagine the situation is like Jim_Bean's.
If the cracked tiles and the moisture were found in different rooms, then there's a good chance (although not 100%) that they're not related to each other. Especially if one room is concrete slab and the other one has a plywood subfloor, they're very likely to be unrelated. The tear in your vinyl could be from any number of things, mostly wear and tear related. If they were regular tiles and they cracked it would probably mean the subfloor underneath wasn't level, but that shouldn't have the same effect on vinyl becuase it'll conform to the uneven surface (unless it's really old and brittle maybe?). As for the moisture, a little more info on what room you found it in would be helpful--if it's in a kitchen, bath, laundry, etc where you'd expect moisture around, then it's most likely an appliance of some sort leaking. Otherwise, there are a number of possibilities, could be a broken pipe under the house somewhere, could be a cracked slab, could be the vapor barrier that's put down with the concrete slab has gone bad (or was installed wrong) and is allowing moisture up, could be a leaking roof and that's the low point where the water's ended up, and probably several other things too! Was the concrete slab wet when you looked at it, or was the water really just on the surface? A home inspector could be helpful, but if you can give us some more information, people here who are more knowledgable than me may be able to help you narrow it down on your own first.
Thanks so much for the reply and information! The moisture was not in a room which has appliances. It was in a small room which is separated from the attached garage by an interior wall. The garage has a plaster wall, and at the foot of that wall which it shares with the small room, the plaster is deteriorating. Since the plaster is not deteriorating at the top of that wall, I assume the water is not coming from the roof. (Or is that a wrong assumption?)
When I lifted the tile, there were some small beads of moisture on the dark-covered surface of what I assume is concrete. I am ashamed to admit that the tile was lifted a year ago, and not replaced. I have not found moisture in that open space since then. I would very much like to replace the tile, but I am afraid to since the source of the problem was not found. There does not seem to have been further deterioration in the garage, but I am not certain of that. (I guess I should be finding someone to repair the plaster wall in the garage once the problem is solved?) Soon after I lifted the tile, I got rid of my old refrigerator which was in another room that shared a wall with the garage. The appliance man told me that the refrigerator had been leaking. (And the other room, with the cracked tiles, is the kitchen.) Could the moisture have traveled under the wall to the small room?
Just because the leak was on the ground doesn't mean it wasn't the roof, but if you had a leaky fridge that's been removed and you haven't had the problem since that would be my lead suspect. But when tracing leaks, remember that water follows gravity, I had a roof leak at my old house, and the first place I always saw water was on the floor and around the baseboard in my spare bedroom. Only when it rained really hard did I see it up around the ceiling area too. Sometimes the low point where water collects will be at the ceiling, I think this is what most people expect, but since my leak was in the roof right above a wall, the water actually dripped down inside the wall and came out on the floor instead. I still think the fridge is your lead suspect, but how long ago was it removed? If you've had significant amounts of rain since then, then that's even more evidence in favor of the fridge, and if you've gotten through a winter with snow on the roof and ice blocking stuff up and didn't notice anything then either then I'd say almost for sure it's the fridge. But if it's only been a short time since the fridge was moved, you may want to wait until after the winter and see if you notice the moisture again before you do anything.
Thanks again, ecrane3. Yes, the floor made it through a winter with snow on the roof and some recent heavy rains without showing any sign of moisture. So maybe the refrigerator (replace about a year ago) was the culprit.
I must admit that I am still worried about a possible crack in the slab that seems to form the floor for both dining room and garage. If there is a crack in a slab floor, what is the remedy?
Sorry to try your patience, but anxious to hear a reply,
DP
I'm curious what makes you think there's a crack in the slab? I tend to feel that the first most obvious thing (the refrigerator) is the most likely cause. If you got rid of the fridge a year ago and haven't seen any moisture since as you went through all your seasons, then I don't think that a cracked slab was the cause, you would have seen signs of it again after you got rid of the fridge. Honestly slabs and foundations are outside my area of expertise--I would think you could just use cement patch for smaller cracks and maybe need to get a pro in for larger ones, but unless the vapor barrier has been compromised you may not really need to do anything unless it's a massively huge crack. But like I said at the beginning of the post, I don't believe that's your problem, if it was you would have had trouble again since getting rid of the fridge.
sorry it's taken me a while to check in...I wonder whether there is a crack in the slab because: 1) the room in which I actually found beads of moisture is right behind the garage. The garage is on a slab, and I can see cracks running through it.
2) The above-mentioned room has a sliding glass door. It is harder to open it now, and the floor seems uneven near the door.
3) The pavement in front of the house, near the kitchen, has changed levels in places.
What you say is reassuring. I don't know what the vapor barrier is, though.
My impulse at this point is to hire someone to pull up the tiles and see what is happening underneath them, but I wonder whether this is opening a can of worms. I wonder whether I have to find a flooring expert who will be able to handle an unusual situation if it comes up, or whether a handyman will know the right thing to do.
Houses settle over time, that probably explains most of what you're seeing. Honestly, I would not do anything unless you see more moisture, you said before that you've gotten through rain and snow seasons since the leaky fridge was moved and haven't seen any issues, why rip up all your tiles and create a huge headache for yourself if nothing's leaking! If a cracked slab is what was causing your moisture, then you should have seen it again since you moved the fridge. My advice is don't mess with things unless you find another moisture problem. If you're worried about the amount of uneven-ness in pavement, garage, house, etc you could call in someone just to take a look at that and make sure that the amount of unevenness you're seeing is just normal house settling or whether there's a bigger problem like the house being on unstable ground and parts are sinking or something like that, that can likely be checked out without ripping anything up.
