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Invasive Plants: Coral Bells ... invasive? common?

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pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 5, 2006
2:57 PM

Post #2787999

I planted a purple coral bell variety in my experimental perennial bed and now I have 20 million of them. I didn't know they spread and so quickly. Is this common?
Kathleen
Panama, NY
(Zone 5a)

October 5, 2006
5:32 PM

Post #2788512

If they like whehre they are, they will "expand" but I don't think I'd call them invasive. Just enthusiastic. Think of them as gifts for your gardening friends.

There ae no listings in the USDA Plants Invasives site. http://plants.usda.gov/
Type in Heuchera.
Equilibrium

October 5, 2006
6:28 PM

Post #2788621

I can't find any reports anywhere of Heuchera spp. being invasive on our continent where one species or another of Huechera (Coralbells) is indigenous/native. Interstingly enough, looks as if it isn't even deemed aggressive anywhere here on North America. It must be very happy where it is planted by you so consider yourself very lucky. That's a wonderful plant.

I love the idea of thinking of them as gifts for gardening friends.
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

October 5, 2006
7:02 PM

Post #2788697

Or is it maybe something else other than Heuchera? I'm not familiar with any other plants that go by that common name, but I'm sure there's at least one other plant out there that someone somewhere calls coral bells.
Equilibrium

October 6, 2006
12:34 AM

Post #2789457

Yes, that's the problem with common names.
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 6, 2006
5:03 PM

Post #2791290

Well, yes, it is Heuchera, purpura - common I think. Anyway, I planted it in 6 hours of sun, by mistake. It looked so droopy that I trimmed it back and left it's little stems with the "bells" on the ground around it. OMIG! I now have tons of little purple Heuchera all over that same spot - some are even blooming! I had no idea they did this, no matter how happy they are. I'll have to get a shot of them and post. At work right now. Keep your eyes peeled this weekend for an updated pic. thanks all.
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 6, 2006
5:05 PM

Post #2791296

next to the weeping cherry, on the right, at the back of this little fence is where they are multiplying. Close up to come.

edit: You can see the 'parent' there behind the Star Flower bush (new). Thank goodness this is my experimental plant bed, except for the trees and the rose bush. :)

This message was edited Oct 6, 2006 12:07 PM

Thumbnail by pegdog
Click the image for an enlarged view.

Equilibrium

October 6, 2006
8:34 PM

Post #2791877

Hey pegdog, I couldn't help but notice your driveway. Extremely environmentally friendly. Good for you! Great driveway! I don't see too many like that any more but wish I did.
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 7, 2006
8:12 PM

Post #2794527

thanks, we share drive with our neighbors. We were going to redo it, but it's got a bit of charm we like with these 100 year old homes. The drive goes back to the 40's, I think.
SO,
Here are the little devils. I don't have that collage (sp?) thing going, so excuse the single photos.

Thumbnail by pegdog
Click the image for an enlarged view.

pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 7, 2006
8:15 PM

Post #2794539

here they are surrounding my star flower bush
edit: if these aren't Heuchera, what did i plant? Oh, and ignore the clover weeds! those are invasive.

This message was edited Oct 7, 2006 3:17 PM

Thumbnail by pegdog
Click the image for an enlarged view.

pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 7, 2006
8:45 PM

Post #2794610

One more,these little guys are to the right of the "parent" plant.

Thumbnail by pegdog
Click the image for an enlarged view.

sallyg

sallyg
Anne Arundel,, MD
(Zone 7b)

October 7, 2006
9:14 PM

Post #2794695

IMHO, they look like my baby (sage) Salvia lyrata 'Burgundy Bliss" that are all around their parents. Don't they seem to be missing the thin stem of heuchera that holds the leaf up, but rather these leaves start to widen right from the center point? I got my salvia a couple of years ago.
Equilibrium

October 7, 2006
10:01 PM

Post #2794798

Huechera 'Purpurea' is a cultivar of Heuchera villosa. Heuchera villosa is indigenous to Virginia so I think the cultivar should fare well by you. The leaves of your volunteers seem all wrong for them to be Heuchera. Maybe if you get some close up photos we could all take shots at identifying what you really have over there. Also too, paalexan (sp?) is the best of the best at identification in my opinion... maybe if you post the photos you have over in our plant id forum he will know what you've got even without better photos.
notgrnjean
Southern, NJ
(Zone 6b)

October 7, 2006
10:40 PM

Post #2794885

All I can make out is what looks like my ajuga, and clover. Is it the purpulish plant you are asking about? That's what looks like my ajuga.
Equilibrium

October 7, 2006
11:09 PM

Post #2794951

Ajuga reptans is invasive. I sort of thought the color of her little volunteers matched Ajuga 'Chocolate Chip' but the leaves don't seem quite right. They don't seem narrow enough.
notgrnjean
Southern, NJ
(Zone 6b)

October 8, 2006
1:09 AM

Post #2795238

Yes, Equilibrium, you warned me about the ajuga. (Thank you.) I have removed part of it that was my temporary erosion control. I will get to the rest. So maybe we are looking at the same plants in the pics - you know my plant disability so I thought I was not seeing right. That definitely is MY ajuga I see in the pics. It's old and may well antedate any cultivars! It has big fat leaves like that and the purplish color, and gets the nice blue spikes.

Maybe within pegdog's original heurchera (if it was that) was some ajuga? I can't see the mother plant well enough to say if it too looks like my ajuga.
Equilibrium

October 8, 2006
2:26 AM

Post #2795473

I really don't see all that well but I can pick out that the shape of the leaves is inconsistent with Heuchera. I did spot what looked to me to be Oxalis in her flower bed also but again, I can't tell from the photos. I definitely did spot her little decorative ceramic urn things and I like those very much.

ViburnumValley

ViburnumValley
Scott County, KY
(Zone 5b)

October 8, 2006
2:54 AM

Post #2795586

All the little purple foliaged plants in the pictures look like Ajuga to me too. None of your closeups indicate any Heuchera to me. Patrick may be able to finalize the ID here. BTW, good looking drip hose in the beds there, pegdog.

I'm a little surprised at no recommendations about terminology here. Let's continue to describe what we mean. No offense intended; knowledge advancement is the intent.

Weedy (garden foes): plants that seed themselves excessively where we don't want them, as gardeners, making us remove them in order to achieve an aesthetic that we desire and reduce competition with those plants we want to have around.

Invasive: plants that never would have occurred in an environment on their own; causes a severe allelopathic change to that environment hydrologically, chemically, with regard to fire behavior, etc. and reduces/eliminates the ability of indigenous plants to exist or reproduce. These are typically plants from another continent, and usually introduced via the actions of the species Homo sapiens var. gardeneriensis.

These are really different terms, and should not be used interchangeably.
Equilibrium

October 8, 2006
3:45 AM

Post #2796042

Ajuga reptans and cultivars are invasive.

Are those decorative urns functional as well as decorative? I don't see a drip hose. Where is it? Are those decorative urns somehow part of her drip hose? If so, I like them even more.

Kathleen
Panama, NY
(Zone 5a)

October 8, 2006
11:29 AM

Post #2796435

pegdog, the second photo of the three shows flower stems above the purple leaves and it is indeed a salvia of some kind. The parent plant in the third photo does look like a heuchera. If you go out and pick a leaf off the "parent" and on off the mystery plants, I think you will find that they aren't the same. Salvias will scatter themselves about, but, again, I don't believe they are considered an invasive.

What color is the flower on the plants in question?

ViburnumValley

ViburnumValley
Scott County, KY
(Zone 5b)

October 8, 2006
12:48 PM

Post #2796541

Spotted the soaker snaking through the second snapshot.
Equilibrium

October 8, 2006
8:22 PM

Post #2797535

Ah ha! I see it now!
notgrnjean
Southern, NJ
(Zone 6b)

October 9, 2006
1:58 AM

Post #2798701

I recognize the drip hose! It's in the second AND fourth pictures! I now can identify: (1) Hedera helix; (2) Vinca major; (3) Vinca minor; (4) Ajuga reptens; and (5) a drip hose.

However, I do still lack a solid grasp of "invasive". As VV says on another thread: [QUOTE] I don't think scientists studying the matter disagree on what invasive MEANS; there may yet be some disagreement on exact terminology to explain this to lay persons who don't know lots of scientific and botanical verbiage.[/QUOTE]

I am one of those "lay persons". To me, the definitions given in the Lycoris thread http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/652320/ and a previous DG thread referenced within the Licoris thread don't give me a useful explanation. I feel like Justice Potter Stewart trying to define pornography: [QUOTE] ... I know it when I see it . . . [/QUOTE] Not a good working standard.

Edited to add "standard" in place of "definition".



This message was edited Oct 9, 2006 2:07 AM
Equilibrium

October 9, 2006
3:00 AM

Post #2798880

Unlike pornography, you won't necessarily know an invasive species when you see it. And, scientists don't generally disagree on their collective interpretation of the term invasive species however much confusion does appear to exist amongst others.

Let's go back to this statement regarding an invasive species, "a species that does not naturally occur in a specific area and whose introduction does or is likely to cause economic (harm) or environmental harm or harm to human health."

You reside in New Jersey. You will be able to go to research stations and university libraries as well as local native plant societies to determine which species occurred naturally in the ecosystems in which you garden. By occurring naturally, the vast majority accept plants that occurred prior to European settlement in a specific area as being native or indigenous which is the term preferred here at DG.

From here-
http://www.usna.usda.gov/Gardens/invasives.html
[quote]What is an Invasive Plant?
An invasive plant has the ability to thrive and spread aggressively outside its natural range. A naturally aggressive plant may be especially invasive when it is introduced to a new habitat. An invasive species that colonizes a new area may gain an ecological edge since the insects, diseases, and foraging animals that naturally keep its growth in check in its native range are not present in its new habitat.

Some invasive plants are worse than others. Many invasive plants continue to be admired by gardeners who may not be aware of their weedy nature. Others are recognized as weeds but property owners fail to do their part in preventing their spread. Some do not even become invasive until they are neglected for a long time. Invasive plants are not all equally invasive. Some only colonize small areas and do not do so aggressively. Others may spread and come to dominate large areas in just a few years. Below are some categories to illustrate degree of invasiveness.[/quote] For the record, I believe Lycoris radiata is invasive. If I lived down south, I wouldn't plant it. In my zone, it's not going to survive unless I lift out the bulbs and store them for the winter. To what degree Lycoris radiata is invasive is open to debate based on the above working definition. Simply stated, each and every introduced plant that survives and thrives in a specific area where it is not indigenous takes up "space" an indigenous species could be occupying. Habitat is shrinking and our NA fauna depend upon the integrity of ecosystems to sustain them.

Therein lies the issues. There are those who attempt to redefine the term invasive to tailor it to their specific gardening style. An invasive plant is an invasive plant is an invasive plant and lop their cultivars into that category too.

I don't know if I have helped or confused you more. I will keep trying to explain and sooner or later I will stumble upon something that will click for you. It's probably not you but me as I take the definition for granted given I work with invasive species.

This site discussed saltmarsh cordgrass and concerns regarding the existence of this plant in areas where it was introduced and I think it might help clarify the term invasive species for you a little bit-
http://www.state.va.us/dcr/dnh/native.htm

The Nature Conservancy is probably the best site on the web to begin familiarizing yourself with the issues of invasive plants. You might want to start with this link-
http://www.nature.org/initiatives/invasivespecies/about/

Let me know how if your head is spinning yet. Invasive is a real tough concept to grasp. At least for me it was.
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 9, 2006
4:13 PM

Post #2800255

Not only is my head spinning, but I am LMAO at all this friendly banter about my little plants. I'll get some better close ups and go back to my journal to see what I "bought" and put in the ground. OR, what the nursery sold me ... it may not be what I actually have.

I don't know ajuga or hedera helix, or vinca major/minor (unless it's the window box kind that trails like ivy - which I know is weedy and invasive, depending on where you live!).

The "parent" plant does get long stems growing up and little "bells" that were pink. I have another heuchera that is in the foreground of that first picture, with the driveway. It is doing well and no little offspring at all.

I am glad you finally found that soaker hose, Equilibrium! And the decorative "urn" is indeed useful. It is my gardening hose guide. It helps keep the hose (obviously) from running over and breaking my wanted plants.

I do think I have weeds (clover) and if this purple "junk" - that's a techincal gardening term! - doesn't qualify as "invasive" then we'll just say it is INVADING my good, new experimental bed!

I'll get a better picture of the parent and the little newbie leaves. THANK YOU.
Equilibrium

October 9, 2006
4:15 PM

Post #2800264

Where'd you get those urns? I love those urns and if they're functional, I love them even more!
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 9, 2006
4:42 PM

Post #2800360

Well, it's another passion of mine: Catalog shopping. I do believe I ordered these from Front Gate. I also bought the 'frog' from them. They had several different types and shapes to choose from.
Equilibrium

October 9, 2006
10:23 PM

Post #2801327

HI,

This Front Gate?
http://www.frontgate.com/

Do you per chance recall what they were called so I can try to find them? I'm not a catalog shopper and I'm afraid I'll get lost in there. I do order on line if I find something that tickles me and I love those urns.
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 10, 2006
8:14 PM

Post #2804485

E - I looked. Maybe they were seasonal. I'll check my journal. :)
Equilibrium

October 10, 2006
10:31 PM

Post #2804818

Thank you. I'm sort of tired of the hose going over plants and flattening them.
terryr
Bureau County, IL
(Zone 5a)

October 10, 2006
11:02 PM

Post #2804889

Going simply by the picture, they remind me of a sage I had when we lived in TN. It was a Lyreleaf sage (Salvia lyrata), but there was also a weed that looked a lot like the picture also. When little, both were that purple color.
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 11, 2006
1:58 PM

Post #2806778

Well, my camera is not giving up the pictures I just took. I'll try this afternoon. I took some of the spreading monster, and some of the EXACT plant that is on the other side of the house - not spreading. Stay tuned ...
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 11, 2006
4:13 PM

Post #2807206

Parent plant as close as my camera would let me get.

Thumbnail by pegdog
Click the image for an enlarged view.

pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 11, 2006
4:17 PM

Post #2807224

offspring ... in same bed.

Thumbnail by pegdog
Click the image for an enlarged view.

pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 11, 2006
4:20 PM

Post #2807234

Same plant (it was when i planted them together/at the same time) and NO offspring nearby!

Thumbnail by pegdog
Click the image for an enlarged view.

Kathleen
Panama, NY
(Zone 5a)

October 11, 2006
7:25 PM

Post #2807752

This is definitely a salvia, probably lyrata or lyre leaved. They have pale blue flowers? Not invasive, but they do like to move around in the garden. I must tell you that when things like to seed themselves around, I let them, but they can make you a litle crazy if you're into neat.

This message was edited Oct 11, 2006 5:37 PM
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 11, 2006
7:30 PM

Post #2807768

Thanks, Kathleen. I don't need neat beds - as you can see with all the leaves and clover about, just ones that have some planning to them.

however, these do not have blue flowers; they have light pink/white flowers. and the last picture I posted has ZERO seedlings / new sprouts near it.
notgrnjean
Southern, NJ
(Zone 6b)

October 11, 2006
8:29 PM

Post #2807903

Those don't look like the Coral bells that I've seen in nurseries, but I'm sure there are many variations.

Equilibrium says use Latin names because a common name may be several things to several people. I've really found that to be true in the past couple of months. I used Latin names in my earlier post to show off, and also because they are the only names and only plants I know! Pitiful.

I took some pics of my Ajuga today. I will try to post them tonight. It does not look like your most recent pics, but it sure looks like your first ones.

sallyg

sallyg
Anne Arundel,, MD
(Zone 7b)

October 11, 2006
9:17 PM

Post #2808063

I again saysecond the salvia lyrata. Mine burgundy bliss is sparsely reblooming now, pink flowers
Kathleen
Panama, NY
(Zone 5a)

October 11, 2006
9:38 PM

Post #2808131

Sally, you're right - lyrata, not lutea. I was talking and typing - heavens knows what I said!
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 11, 2006
11:12 PM

Post #2808321

You guys are great. I'll see what Latin I can find...
Here is the other bed/side of the house ... same plant, no babes. I keep posting b/c it's so weird how one "invaded" and these are just hanging out with not one offspring. I better just start pulling those other darn seedlings this weekend.

Thumbnail by pegdog
Click the image for an enlarged view.

sallyg

sallyg
Anne Arundel,, MD
(Zone 7b)

October 12, 2006
2:23 AM

Post #2808910

Kathleen- I'm just so happy that somebody agrees with me! I thought the flowers were not ajuga like...
My salvia has lived in a couple parts of the garden, trying to find its niche. This year it croaked in one spot (maybe too dry from root competition) but has thrived in the other,(less roots and some light protection from butterfly bush) and that's the spot where I'm now having quite a few babies.
notgrnjean
Southern, NJ
(Zone 6b)

October 12, 2006
4:02 AM

Post #2809185

Your last picture at 7:12pm - That looks like a single Ajuga plant. I should have photoed a single plant. Here are several bunched. Each single plant grows into layers like an African Violet.

Thumbnail by notgrnjean
Click the image for an enlarged view.

notgrnjean
Southern, NJ
(Zone 6b)

October 12, 2006
4:06 AM

Post #2809195

Here are some single leaves

Thumbnail by notgrnjean
Click the image for an enlarged view.

pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 12, 2006
12:02 PM

Post #2809679

Very similar, ngj, if not the same. i think mine are less shiny, but that may not make a difference.

So, why would a nursery sell "Ajuga" or "Salvia" as Palace Purple Coral Bells?? Now I am bummed about this little nursery down the street. It's been in business for decades.

sallyg

sallyg
Anne Arundel,, MD
(Zone 7b)

October 12, 2006
7:29 PM

Post #2810935

salvia- they sure are similar!!

Thumbnail by sallyg
Click the image for an enlarged view.

notgrnjean
Southern, NJ
(Zone 6b)

October 12, 2006
11:14 PM

Post #2811574

sallyg, they sure look similar to me too. Except for the tall stalks on the salvia. As salvia matures, does it grow the leaves in layers? I am really reminded of African violet as far as the way the leaves layer as the Ajuga deveops into a mound. (The roots are totally different though.)

pegdog, maybe an Ajuga made it into just one of your "Coral bells" purchases, and that's why it's only spreading by one of your plants. As to why your Coral bells appear to be either salvia or Ajuga, I dunno. Were your plants labeled only with the common came of "Coral bells"?
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 13, 2006
3:04 PM

Post #2813487

Yep, looks like salvia, except only ONE of them is spreading ... the one I moved b/c i thought it was Heuchera.

NGJ - yep, labelled "Palace Purple" coral bells. bummer.

OK - now, do I pull it? I mean, if I let it sit there and breed, I'll just end up with a bed full of salvia, right? It's almost as bad as wheat celsoia!!
terryr
Bureau County, IL
(Zone 5a)

October 13, 2006
6:26 PM

Post #2814114

It's pretty easy to pull up the ones you don't want. The 1 plant I had in TN spread pretty far and I just pulled up those that I didn't want. They don't spread by roots, they spread by seed. So deadheading helps also. They really like mushroom compost. If it was just one of those sticks in the pot that said Purple Palace, a consumer could of stuck the tag into the wrong pot. I've seen that done a lot around here at my local nursery.

sallyg

sallyg
Anne Arundel,, MD
(Zone 7b)

October 13, 2006
8:26 PM

Post #2814409

NGJ- Plant files has the ajuga and salvia in the same family, not too surprisingly. Twins separated at birth, more like!
The salvia doesn't have the layered look of an african violet; I'd say the leaves are all coming up in the middle, with the new ones sticking up more, sort of randomly, because they are forced up. not as neatly layered as my green ajuga, say.

sallyg

sallyg
Anne Arundel,, MD
(Zone 7b)

October 14, 2006
1:18 PM

Post #2816240

see the IDENTIFICATION forum, is this russian sage, for a top ten why plants are mislabeled.
pegdog
Winchester, VA
(Zone 6a)

October 16, 2006
2:39 PM

Post #2821779

Thank you , sally. And everyone!

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