We will be rolling out several small fixes mid-day today (Jan 29.) We do not anticipate any disruptions or problems, but f you spot any unexpected issues after 12 noon (PST), please report them in the designated thread in the DG Site Updates forum.
Close-up of the seeds. Now maybe Ron can enlighten us on what these may be. Would anyone like to join me on the challenge of trying to get these to germinate? I don't want to be the only one on this project, someone else might have some good ideas for germination. If you would like to try, I can send you some of the seeds,
Well,glad to see that you got about 100 seeds...they look like Ipomoea purpurea and/or the smaller sized Ipomoea nil that Thompson & Morgan provide in their 'Early Call Mix"...the flowers(should any sprout) would probably be about 3"...
From what I can see in the photo there seems to be about 8 to 13 seeds that look potentially(!) sproutable...so my guesstimate would be about a 20% germination rate at best,and perhaps 8% might be a more realistic percentage > but I'd consider yourself lucky if any sprout...most look 'kinda' dried out >especially around the edges...
I've sprouted Ipomoea tricolor that were in a paper container in a cool dry basement that were 20 years old...and I've sprouted Ipomoea nil that were in cold storage that were 40 years old,but I've never sprouted Ipomoea nil or Ipomoea purpurea that were 59 years old under less than optimal or otherwise 'unknown' conditions...
My main concern would be from pre-emergent type of "damping off" seedrot...therefore > useage of long-fibered sphagnum moss and air circulation for prevention(?)...Damping off preventative soaks can sometimes by slightly phyto-toxic and although the slight amount of phyto-toxicity would ordinarilly not be of much consequence >in very dormant seeds >it might be...the fungus/slimes may get to the seed(s) before they can germinate and develop immunity and the pre-emergent soaks may also be 'too' toxic for the old seeds...
Warm water > about 90 degrees,...I'd give 'em 75-80degrees during the day with 70-75 degrees at night...
The gibberelic acids that Deno has used are not the GA's most prevalent in Ipomoea seeds...GA's are not always stimulating to germination and can be inhibitory...
Yeah .. throw a few my way if you like. What's a few more morning glory's added to the 15+ already growing in the greenhouse. (Come March I'm going to need a machete to get in there I think, Ron's Xenostegia is intimidating the brugmansia at the moment, I have to keep unwinding it from the poor things and back onto it's sticks. Ron, that thing grows at least and inch and a half a day!) I'm in the addy.
Beth, if your offer still stands, I'd be honored to join in the project. I'm wondering if it makes sense to slowly hydrate the seeds rather than the "nick and soak" routine? Seems like I've read that a slow wake up is good after a long sleep...but then Ron's concern raised about the damping off may lead on to try a speedier approach to minimize the vulnerable stages. Hydrogen peroxide is another thought...though that may be too harsh..
One thing is certain - this will be interesting to see unfold.
Haha! Actually we have a National Clonal Germplasm Repository run by the USDA here in Corvallis. I think they are more interested in heirloom agricultural species, though. I was hoping someone at Oregon State University in the Seed Lab might be interested.
Mine came today. They look good. I nicked one and I see what looks like what I`m supposed to see and planted it in a clean pot with new dirt and watered it. I have planted one seed and saving others for Spring 2007.
Well, after one day it appears the seed has hydrated and there is something inside there...hopefully a living baby plant curled up inside. I have the dirt evenly moist and not too soggy. It is in a good spot so this should sprout if it is alive.
Hey Beth, got the seeds today. Thanks so much!!! I'll plant two seeds this weekend and save the others for a second attempt. You were so nice to send out the seeds to all who asked. Hope we all have success!
Nothing with mine. It looks the same after days and days. My doubt is increasing with the passing of time. I really had doubts any of the 50 plus year old seeds would sprout as Ron mention there is no way of knowing what they have been through. They could have been baked in a hot moving van,exposed to extremes of temperature,some of the seed coats could have tiny cracks from being shaken around or from passage of time that dried them out and what not. I still cling to hope some of them Will sprout!
Lotus seeds are robust and have very thick seed coats and I have read they have sprouted up to 500 years later but the plants had abnormalities.
Sorry to report the two seeds I was pre-soaking before planting fell apart with no visible sign of anything inside. I will go ahead plant the remaining seeds directly in soil, but it looks likely none of these seeds will germinate.
just got my seeds. and its really too cold right now to even try to start them inside or outside. last night it got down to 31 degrees and rainy. i am thinking of trying it on the tv where its warmer at.
will soak one today in cup of water and one the towel method and see what happens. i only have 5 seeds so want to save one for spring which hopefully it will make it.
I`m freaking out here. I checked and I see the seed has broken around the edges and I see little white barely tinged green folds of cotyledon in there!!! I do not see any root so I worry something is amiss here. I`ll keep waiting.
I am waiting to start mine in the spring. I hope all of you trying don't get discouraged because there may be only a few seeds in the mix that are viable. There is always the possibility that YOU may have that seed.!
i posted on the prayer forums for Imzadi so that is why you all havent heard from her. she says she knows she was supposed to start these but now with her being laid up it will have to wait. hope this is okay. Jade her friend
The following is the reply I got as to these 1949 seeds from the government agency. Looks like we are on our own!
The best advice I can give is to nick the seed coat, use a fungicide to treat the seed, and keep them warm until they germinate.
You can reach me at 770 228 7303.
------- Forwarded message follows -------
Organization: Plant Genetic Resources Conservation Unit
Date sent: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 11:19:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Beth Olvera
I do not have a complete mailing address so I will just file the paperwork unless you want to contact her for an address.
On 4 Jan 2007 at 10:56, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
Date sent: Thu, 04 Jan 2007 10:56:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Beth Olvera
On 4 Jan 2007 at 9:27, email@example.com wrote:
> I was just checking on the status of this request.
> Please let me know how you would like me to proceed and if you
> any questions.
> On 13 Dec 2006 at 16:09, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
> From: Self
> To: email@example.com
> Subject: Beth Olvera
> Copies to: firstname.lastname@example.org
> Date sent: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 16:09:22 -0500
> We received this email below forwarded by Maryann Loftus from a
> cooperator asking about "morning glories". I just wanted to pass it
> on for your information since it is your crop. If you correspond with
> the cooperator please cc' me for the files.
> Please let me know if you have any questions.
> Date sent: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 14:32:36 -0500 (EST)
> From: Maryann Loftus
> To: Lee Ann Chalkley
> Subject: question (fwd)
> Lee Ann,
> Thought you might like to give this one a whirl since you all are the
> site for morning glories.
> Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 13:24:53 -0600
> From: "Olvera, Beth A"
> To: email@example.com
> Subject: question
> I am looking for assistance in sprouting a number of morning glory
> seeds stored since 1949. These seem to be in good shape and
> for these seeds ranges from 50 to 100 years. Is there anyone in the
> college that would be interested in assisting in this endeavor. Due
> to the high mutability and genetic drift of morning glories we may
> "rediscover" heirlooms.
> Beth Olvera
Dr. Robert L. Jarret
Plant Genetic Resources
1109 Experiment Street
Griffin, GA 30224
------- End of forwarded message ------- Dr. Robert L. Jarret USDA/ARS/SAA Plant Genetic Resources
1109 Experiment Street
Griffin, GA 30224
"My main concern would be from pre-emergent type of "damping off" seedrot...therefore > useage of long-fibered sphagnum moss and air circulation for prevention(?)...
Damping off preventative soaks can sometimes by slightly phyto-toxic and although the slight amount of phyto-toxicity would ordinarilly not be of much consequence
>in very dormant seeds >it might be...the fungus/slimes may get to the seed(s) before they can germinate and develop immunity and the pre-emergent soaks may also be 'too' toxic for the old seeds..."
Many pathogens reside on the seedcoat but virus, bacterial and fungal pathogens can be pre-existent and reside deep within the seedcoat as well as gaining access by penetration of the moistened swollen seed coats,rotting the seed before or as it attempts to germinate and emerge...Cracked or damaged seeds allows pathogens increased pre-access to the embryonic tissue...
These pathogens particularly the fungi can spread and destroy seeds during cold-stratification and during germination causing the diseases known as seedrot, pre-emergency damping-off and post-emergency damping-off.
The pathogens may be seed-borne,soil-borne,water-borne,air or sail-borne...
The presence of organic debris e.g., dead infested seed,empty seedshells,leaf and stem matter,seed wings,serves as reservoirs for pathogens.
The infected seeds are turned into a rotten mass consisting primarily of fungus and plant substances such as suberin and lignin, which the fungus cannot break down.
The host plant seeds or seedling tissues exudates serve as nutrients and germination mediums that can be cleansed or draw and dissperse the exudates away from the germinating seed will help to prevent pathogenic infection >especially of slow starting or dormant seeds...
Seed can generally be effectively disinfected with a 2 - 5 minute soak in a bleach(sodium hypochlorite) solution diluted 1:10 with water and containing a drop of wetting agent such as dish detergent and I personally would not recommend soaking in dilute clorox for longer than 5 minutes due to increased potential harm to the embryo...the 5 minute soak may not be able to reach pathogens that are deeply imbedded in the seedcoat and/or in the embryonic tissue...therefore a less phyto-toxic anti-fungal like the copper or oxine benzoate would be potentially more useful as a deeper soak and/or as a longer term anti-fungal...
A fungicide that penetrates into all cracks and crevices of the seedcoat and penetrates deeply into the seed to disinfects sprouting germ tissue >killing internal fungus spores besides killing organisms on the surface of the seeds and in the local environment is ideal...
These seed and seedling diseases e.g., seed rot (of the embryo while still encased in the seedcoat),pre-emergent/premergence(before the seedling emerges above the surface) and post-emergent/emergence(after the seedling breaks the surface of the medium) tend to be more problematic in cool soils,. particularly from Pythium ultimum, ...but there are pathogens that prefer warmer soils > so there are no absolutes...
Planting should generally be done when temperatures are favorable for fast plant growth >but there are ambivalent environmental factors when addressing dormant seeds...
Cool and wet may be required to remove certain germination inhibitors...modulating denaturing chemical changes in proteins and fatty acids...
seed coat injury,compacted mediums,poor air circulation and poor drainage > wet soggy conditions contribute to various "damping off" diseases...planting depth,seed age/viability and genetic resistance are all also relevant factors contributing to germination sucess...
shallow planting allows for better aeration...
There are some studies that indicate that the seedcoat modulates the effects of potassium (K) on the germinating embryo...so removal of the seedcoat is not always a good thing,but basically if I see germination >I try to very carefully assist the sprout in removing the seedcoat...
Some of the seed rot and seedling disease pathogens include:
Fusarium sp - mostly seed-borne but also soil-borne seed rot favors cool wet soils - often(but not always) pink tinged - produces zearalenone, vomitoxin et al mycotoxins
Pythium - mostly soil-borne seed rot favors cool wet soils - considered water molds similar to algae with spores that can move on their own (zoospores), swim through moisture often brown to black in color
Phytophthora sp - more active in warm soil.
Diplodia maydis / Stenocarpella et al species - prefers warm moist - tan proceeding to dark brown and black - Diplosporin mycotoxin
Penicillium - favors high temperatures
Rhizoctonia sp -
Gonatobotrys sp -
Phomopsis sp -
Hemiparasitic bacteria -
I've used preventative anti-fungal for the initial soak and in all followup hydration applications with excellent results...but all anti-fungals have some phyto-toxic/germination inhibiting qualities...
The copper sulphate and copper octanoate are usually effective against both cool and warm temperature pathogens...the No Damp is also an excellent product...
Ron, your post has got to be the most comprehensive, useful post on germination I have ever seen. Must be quite a metabolic dance going on in those seeds which such a host of bad guys. Thank you. A deer just busted through our fence (This balmy weather has prolonged a great crop of chard that's been taunting it for some time now) - will cross-post this in some other forums later this eve.
I've been lurking here and just wanted to let you all know that I am facinated. I've gleaned so much information on seed propagation, while anxiously hoping that some of the seeds will not only germinate but eventually flower.
Paul - We Want To See It(!)...We Want To See It(!)...We Want To See It(!)...
chanted indefinitely until 'radical'(!) closeup pictorial demands are met...
Hi marie(!) - Glad to hear from you...we were all just 'lurkers' at some point...but you may find enjoying these as a passive 'spectator' sport doesn't quite do the trick...remember these are invasive plants that actively 'get into your blood'...for life...it is inevitable...the seed has been planted in your mind...
P.S. - Paul...don't lose any of the historical parts like the 'actual' historical seed casing...
ill get some pictures this morning all i did to this one was stick it in some vermiculite and it was out side on my porch in the mini green housei thought it was a weed at first but its a mg it looks a bit odd to me
Congratulations on having the first seed to germinate! We will all be watching the story as this one grows. I am going to plant mine as you did (in vermiculite) and hope I get one also. Please keep us updated.
That doesn't really look like a MG. If it is, it should be well on it's way now. We'll know in a few weeks. I call first seeds on that if it's a MG. This is interesting, Dave's could be the first web site with it's own speciality plant.
The cotyledons look like an definite Ipomoea to me...although the taper of the lobes looks atypical for either Ipomoea purpurea or Ipomoea nil...closer to Ipomoea obscura,I.ochracea or Ipomoea lobata...
Will be interesting to see what it turns out to be...'jokers' are always a bit 'wild'...
So a Polar Bear walks into the tavern, not long after ham sandwich, and sits down at the bar. The bartender asked "What'll it be?" to which the bear leaned on his arm, stared at the ceiling and thought and thought and thought. The bartender then asked "Why the big PAUSE?" LOL
Charles Dickens walks into the tavern, on the heels, as it were, of the Polar Bear, and sits down at the bar. The bartender asked "What'll it be, Chas?". Mr. Dickens replied "I will have a martini" to which the bartender asked "olive, or twist?".
We were hit with freezing weather and ice on the roads (okay, people who live in REALLY cold weather can laugh) and the pipes have been frozen for three days. I'll get to the PO today to get the next round of seeds mailed out.
I am starting them as I do any other MG, I chipped the seed coat, then soaked these overnight, and now have the seeds in moist paper toweling in a ziploc bag. Several of the enlarged seeds do not look so good. They have the look of the seeds that have gone to that big trellis in the sky look.
I can't keep my mouth shut anymore. Folks, we need to revisit the sensitivity of a germinating seed as mentioned several times at least by Ron. We should take a closer look at a germinated seed and look more closely at what we are seeing. We need to see what we are looking at and learn some of the jargon that goes with potting etc. I would like us to take a closer look at the recently germinated seed. What is there? Brand new roots barely bigger than they were in the embryo before germination. Stem? I should say not!!! That thing you are probably calling a stem is a hypocotyl, the umbilical cord between the rootlet and the cotyledons where the rootlets are still getting their nutrition. The hypocotyl needs to get it's own recognition, because of it's extremely high level of vulnerability. If you don't think it is vulnerable, just bruise one. I might be going out on a limb, but what the heck, bruises to the hypocotyl ARE DEATH. They are so easily injured. The main purpose of the hypocotyl is to transmit nutrients from the cotyledons, down to the rootlets. When the cotyledons have sent all they have, then having developed enough chlorophyll, they now can send food UP to the new leaf and other organs begining to develop. By the time you have grown two or three real new leaves, the hypocotyl has developed a good rind on it and the cotyledons are about to fall off, their job finished. This completes the most vulnerable period in this plant's life, SURVING BIRTH. Whoever we are, man or woman, we are the mothers of these seedlings, and like a cow we have to protect the new born from the predators. We need to provide temp, moisture, light, so simple for us. The cow has to eat the afterbirth to keep the coyotes from getting the calf the night of its birth. We do this with sterile seedling media. Yes, STERILE, STERILE, STERILE, or at least as sterile as you can get.. If you cannot replace the seeds, it would be stupid to think any other way. If we have 2# of last years seeds, then we can gamble and start over again and again. I have spent over $5 per seed on special seeds and failed at temp because I didn't take the time to find out the temp in the windosill, below 60 degrees! I hope you can profit from my mistakes, through this place to share.
I had better post this now before my "CUSSED 350" freezes again, and I can continue with these rantings about seedlings and their vulnerablility later. We need to endorse a protocol of planting mix terminology so that we are all on the same page. What is compost, dirt, soil, potting mix, top soil etc. Later Frank
BRILLIANT, Beth. necessity is the mother of invention. I once wrapped xmas lights around the water pipes to keep them from freezing. It worked. Now all you need is one of those $40 thermostats to keep the temp where you want it for sure. Ace Hdw has them. Something else you might get inventive with, is one of the hot rocks for lizards at the local pet store. They come in different sizes and they are designed to keep the lizard around 80 degrees, with a 6' cord. This puppy can do a lot of things for you when you are working with irreplaceable seeds.
I just got from Park seeds two boxes of the styrfoam blocks with cone shaped holes and dig this, some kind of sponge plugs the color of peat. They are outstanding. Very very strong plastic, not disposable. They are a little pricey, but, you only live once. One of the bags of extra plugs tore open and some of them went onto the floor, and they didn't expload and make a mess, so I had to take a closer look. WOW, a sponge like fibery thing that stays in one piece. Now I can get serious about my fried egg poppy seeds. I think I will even get some more. You stirred up the inventor in ME. Good luck with the crock pot method. Frank
I awoke this morning to find five seeds still intact, and two have burst open. One has a little 'tail' and one split in half. I'll be planting them in Jiffy peat plug pots and keeping them in a warm, bright room. This is what I did with my morning glories that I started early last spring.
I want to mention that when I started my seeds last spring inside, some germinated right away and it seemed that some didn't germinate at all. I put the potting soil of those that didn't, right back into the bucket of it that I keep in the garage, and some time later, I used that potting soil to stuff my topiary turtle. Imagine my surprise when much later, I had morning glories growing out of my turtle! So even if it seems like they aren't going to germinate, some are just slow. Don't give up!
It is encouraging to hear that there are sprouts...I'm very interested to see any closeups of the cotyledons of the new sprouts...and to compare the features to the strains commonly available today...I'm so curious to see if there are any interesting differences...maybe the color of the hypocotyl will portend the color of the flowers
That article on the seeds in London is fascinating! There's no telling how old a seed can be before it's not viable. I recall hearing a story about a lotus seed being found in a pharoh's tomb and being germinated, but I don't know if that's true or not.
Here is a story from 2002 about some 200-500 year old lotus seeds. I`m not sure everything they wrote is true but it sounds like the seeds had problems. The thick seedcoats may be part of the reason they last longer.
I think I found it, but it appears it was in China this happened...
"Lotus is one of the oldest plants in the world. In 1972, archaeologists in China found seedsof the Lotus with estimated ages of 5,000 years in lagoons in Yunnan Province. In 1973, inChekiang Province, other Lotus seeds with ages of 7,000 years were also found (Wu-Han,1987). A large number of Lotus seeds were found in Shan-Tung, Liaoning Provinces andin the Western suburbs of Peking during the period 1923-1951. The age of these seeds was estimated at more than 1,000 years old. Shen-Miller et al. (1995) reported that a1,288±271 year-old (1,350±220 year BP, radiocarbon age) seed of Lotus Nelumbonucifera Gaertn. from an ancient lake bed at Pulatien, Liaoning Province in China, hasbeen germinated and subsequently radiocarbon dated. This is the oldest demonstrably viable and directly dated seed ever reported on."
This other article mentions the Dutch botanist's seeds, as well as the story of the Pharoh's wheat. http://www.alphagalileo.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=readrelease&releaseid=515398
"In the 1990s, sacred lotus seeds recovered from a dried lake bed in China astonished scientists by sprouting: one seed was 1300 years old. The resulting plants, however, had serious genetic abnormalities. The second case was the seed of a South American canna lily, found inside a 500-yearold Inca rattle." (bolding mine)
I believe it about those canna seeds!
I wonder if the morning glory seeds will be okay then, and won't have too many problems with them resulting from age?
If anyone has an incubator for chicks, you might try putting your peat pots in there to keep them warm. This has worked for me before. I really just want to tell all of you that I'm rooting for you in the back here and thanks for all the fun on this forum. I've learned alot.
I`m awaiting spring too. I have been trying to grow some other besides the 1949 morning glories inside and while the ones that didn`t die as a seedling are making it fine I sense they like it hotter and more sunny than is comfy for us. I`m thinking a plant room seperate from everyone else can help accomodate the need for higher temperature and light allowed to come in through the windows.
I might play around with the set up and lighting later. Right now I`m experimenting with some cheaper less rare guinea pigs. :)
I`m going to start mine after the warm weather and plant it in a special secure area to keep it extra safe and nurtured with the needs met.
Just a note on the possibility of genetic abnormalities...this is not always a bad thing, folks! Genetic abnormalities occur in nature on a regular basis. This is how we get our wonderful and diverse plant species. Most of the time a mutation is bad for the plant, and it will not thrive or be out-competed by normal species. Sometimes, however...the mutation is beneficial to the plant, providing a new protection or survival strategy. It can also provide a new and unique type of bloom!
Mine seem to be doing well. They are about 6" high and green and growing. I am debating whether to prune them or transplant and trellis in a one gallon container. Any thoughts from anyone with experience would be welcomed. If these were the ordinary mg seedlings, I wouldn't hesitate to prune them back, but unsure/uncomfortable doing so with these.
KayJones... I recognize those kind of containers they are in. : )
I use those also. SONIC, hot fudge sundae with nuts, please. LOL They are great for starting seeds.
You are doing a good job, they look healthy.
The size of the cotyledons are very large...appreciably larger than what would be seen in an Ipomoea purpurea...and surprisingly large in relation to the size of the seeds...and no signs of any type of seed embryo dehydration damage...the seedlings actually look perfect...
The first leaves present are showing features of early trilobed leaves...as can be seen by the inward cutting and indentations present on the perimeter of the leaves...possibly of I.purpurea var.diversifolia,but the overall look is of an Ipomoea nil...
Looks like the seeds that all had a very consistent look have so far yielded some relatively unforseen surprises...
Certainly will be interesting to check out the continued novelties that come from some of those growing these out...
Very enlightening...(!)...and a wonderful insight into learning...
P.S. - Any closeups of the cotyledons and true leaves would be a most welcome addition to the display...