| Author | Content |
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)
March 29, 2007
6:33 AM Post #3332244
| Without goinging into politics - Fidel Castro just made the news with his prediction that 3 billion people will die due to biofuel projects. Here is a link to the brief article on MSN [HYPERLINK@www.msnbc.msn.com] .
Already the price of corn tortillas (a nutritious staple for the poor) has risen in Mexico even though the corn diverted to biofuel is not the same corn used in tortillas. [HYPERLINK@laborstrategies.blogs.com]
Here is a link to an orginization that I know of that touts hydrogen as a source of renewable, non-polluting energy [HYPERLINK@www.cleanpeace.org] .
What do you have to say about the increasing use of biofuels? |
threegardeners
North Augusta, ON
(Zone 5a)
March 29, 2007
6:43 AM Post #3332273
| I know we need to come up an alternative to gasoline, but the thought of hydrogen scares the daylights out of me!! Isn't it highly explosive? I have visions of some drunk driver crashing into a pole and taking out 5 city blocks. |
darius
Marion, VA
(Zone 5b)
March 29, 2007
6:53 AM Post #3332315
| Is there really a possible alternative? We are SO wedded to the automobile.
I could ride a bicycle but certainly not on a 1,000 mile trip to see my sister. |
spot8907
Ida, MI
March 29, 2007
9:16 AM Post #3332807
| From what I understand about the whole ethanol thing its not sustainable. Using land that is needed to grow food to "grow" energy is a poor tradeoff and as much as I don't like Castro he is right in that ethenol has and will continue to increase food prices and availability, its a no brainer. There are lots of other options such as methane that should be utilized more instead IMHO. Its only when we utilize something that is considered waste that we are truly on the track to sustainability. Ethanol isn't even economicly viable, its being propped up with tax dollars so that makes it even more unsustainble. But there are other "bio-fuels" such as methane that hold great promise but unfortunately thats not where our government is looking. Go figure huh. |
darius
Marion, VA
(Zone 5b)
March 29, 2007
10:21 AM Post #3333070
| Plus, corn itself is not sustainable as a crop. |
MQN
Salt Lake City, UT
(Zone 6a)
March 29, 2007
2:56 PM Post #3333987
| To make 1 gallon of ethanol requires 1 gallon of oil - does that make sense? Plus corn is a very heavy feeder + monoculture has been proven to be a very bad chemically dependant form of stupidity.
I loved the West Wing episode that dealt with this.The lobbiest in the West Wing episode where so sure their method was the way to go, whatever happened to moderation in all things. I would like to see them use a little of each method to get to where we want to be. Does it make sense to use solar energy up north? Half the year maybe kinda, but what about the other half? I would like to see more solar, wind, methanol, hydrogen still needs some work in my opinion.
What chaps my hide, is that its our tax dollars at work subsidizing corporate America. Like they need it! I think that we should be able to check a box on our tax returns to say where we want the $ to go, I mean its ours right? Why should some lobbiest have this kind of control over our lives. I like the saying "You vote with your dollars" - why I have boycotted certain companies. |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
March 29, 2007
3:04 PM Post #3334009
| Ethanol is farm welfare. Has been for thirty years. It decreases vehicle efficiency. Ethanol made from cellulose instead of corn is much better. Hydrogen is in its infancy - who knows what will happen there. People need to carpool more, use mass transit where possible and walk / bike. And with almost every job being computer based - way more tele-commuting! |
threegardeners
North Augusta, ON
(Zone 5a)
March 29, 2007
3:07 PM Post #3334020
| I run a french fry truck, we go through a lot of grease(oil) for deep frying...a company comes and takes the used stuff and uses it to make diesel...what is this called?? |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
March 29, 2007
3:11 PM Post #3334030
| This is it.
[HYPERLINK@www.greasecar.com]
My solar guy converted his truck and gas gotten 1500 miles on one tank. |
threegardeners
North Augusta, ON
(Zone 5a)
March 29, 2007
3:20 PM Post #3334054
| well, it's a good example of recycling, but I guess it doesn't fall under the sustainable alternatives, although, with all the burger kings, mcdonalds and restaurants making tons of used grease, it's not too bad. |
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)
March 29, 2007
3:46 PM Post #3334141
| My "favorite" source of biodeisel is algae. Excerpt from [HYPERLINK@www.eco-farm.org]
Algae Biodiesel: So, what about algae?! While most current research is focused on terrestrial plants, algae produces substantially greater rates of bioenergy. The per unit yield of oil from algae is 7 to 31 times greater than the next best crop, palm oil! According to Michael Briggs of the University of New Hampshire Biodiesel Group, algae is one of the most photosynthetically efficient plants, has extremely fast growth rates, can use human or animal waste as a food source, and can grow in a wide range of conditions. By-products can be used as agricultural fertilizers. Photobioreactors, closed system vessels which provide controlled habitat for cultivation, are the current focus of research, but remain too expensive for commercialization. The University of New Hampshire and the University of Hawaii, however, both have programs that continue to see promise in algae. The Hawaii group recently published a paper on a system that combines open ponds and photobioreactors. Ecogenics, a small research non-profit in Tennessee (www.ecogenicsresearchcenter.org) claims to have created a closed loop eco-system that uses animal waste to create methane, which fuels an algae culture green house. The algae is fermented to create biodiesel and the solids are used as animal and fish feed. Other private companies are working on photobioreactors that harvest CO2 from smoke stacks to feed the algae. Briggs estimates that we would need 3.85 million hectares and $308 billion to build enough algae farms to replace all petroleum transportation fuels with biodiesel. He estimates that it would cost $46.2 billion per year to maintain and suggests we compare that to the $100-150 billion that the US spends each year on crude oil from foreign countries. All of the current algae research is privately funded while corn ethanol continues to get billions of dollars in subsidies. Hmmm… |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
March 30, 2007
9:45 AM Post #3336904
| Fresh off the presses and predicted on this forum! Corn production will increase by 15%. At the cost of what crops? Don't believe the part about lower prices later on.
[HYPERLINK@www.marketwatch.com] |
garden_mermaid
Sunnyvale, CA
(Zone 9b)
March 30, 2007
9:44 PM Post #3338807
| Biodiesel is a sustainable fuel. It can be made from waste vegetable oil and you don't need to do a greasecar type converstion to run on it. Any regular diesel engine can run on biodiesel. The caveat is that on older diesel engines, there is a buildup of gunk from the petro diesel. When the car/truck is converted to biodiesel, the biodiesel scrubs the gunk off the engine and you'll need to replace your fuel filter a few times after you switch fuels. The other issue with biodiesel is that it gels at a higher temperature than petrodiesel. That is not really an issue in warmer climates, but in colder climates they have needed to run B90 or B80 instead of B100. I also heard that a small amount of alcohol can be added to the fuel in cold climates to deal with the gelling issue. I'd like a hybrid diesel passenger car that I could charge from a solar panel and run on biodiesel when it needs more oomph.
Maybe someday.
Hydrogen cars are in the same boat as ethanol - it currently takes more energy to produce the hydrogen for fuel than is recovered by using it.
Doubtful that any one alternative source will solve our energy needs, but a portfolio of differing energy sources suitable to terrain probably will (ie, wind generators in the windy areas, solar panels where the sun shines, hydro where the water flows and methane harvested from sewers, dumps etc). |
Soferdig
Kalispell, MT
(Zone 4b)
March 31, 2007
5:46 AM Post #3339360
| I think that we need to divide up the US into say 4 countries and make border crossing difficult. That way we wouldn't have the tendency to coast to coast every year. :] The only concerns with biodiesel is the fact we are still using hydrocarbons and adding CO2. Electrical is the cheapest and renewable resource. And it can be created in variable ways. Hydrogen is also a concern because of byproducts of fusion = Lots of H2O right. Which is the worst green house gas. Correct me if I am wrong. Steve,. |
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)
March 31, 2007
6:17 AM Post #3339458
| Water is a "greenhouse gas"? I have been told that you could drink the water coming out of your tailpipe from a hydrogen powered car - so the water wouldn't have to get into the atmosphere - it could be used to restore depleted water tables. |
Soferdig
Kalispell, MT
(Zone 4b)
March 31, 2007
8:11 AM Post #3339762
| Yes actually the Global warming in the prehistoric times was primarily water and CO2. Most of the heat retention in the atmosphere is from water in the atmosphere. I am not an expert but only report what I have read. All of that carbon stored under ground in the form of oil today were created in the Pre/post Jurassic (I think) global warming. This is an article on primary greenhouse gas. (natural of course) You are right that the primary man-made greenhouse gas is CO2.
[HYPERLINK@en.wikipedia.org]
This message was edited Mar 31, 2007 10:23
This message was edited Mar 31, 2007 10:27 AM
This message was edited Mar 31, 2007 10:28 AM |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
March 31, 2007
3:21 PM Post #3340985
| Steve - electric vehicles have to be frequently charged, using electricity that is produced primarily by fossil fuels. Fusion does not take place in hydrogen cars. Fusion does not take place on earth, period! We're working on that and hopefully someday it will have some promise but there is radiation issues with that as well. Water coming out of hydrogen cars is not a problem. Hydrogen is in its infancy and is very expensive, not to mention possibly dangerous.
|
Nebraska_Jewel
southeast, NE
March 31, 2007
3:26 PM Post #3341004
| Victorgardener - you state "Ethanol is farm welfare" Curious - what do you mean by that?
|
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
March 31, 2007
3:32 PM Post #3341014
| It's a government giveaway to farmers. It's not even the best way to get ethanol - cellulose based ethanol is more efficient (using grasses). And ethanol is not the great salvation we've been told. See the Consumer Reports article on it. It decreases auto efficiency, is NOT cheap and can cause maintenance problems. To boot, it is increasing the price of corn to the consumer and luring farmers, who now see it as a cash crop, to stop planting other veggies and switch to corn. None of this is good. |
Soferdig
Kalispell, MT
(Zone 4b)
March 31, 2007
8:58 PM Post #3342051
| All our electricity is produced by gravity and falling water. We also have large amounts of electricity produced now from wind. No fossil fuels here producing electricity. I suppose it is in your neck of the woods. We have a potential for tons of electricity produced by wind on the eastern front of the Rockies. |
garden_mermaid
Sunnyvale, CA
(Zone 9b)
March 31, 2007
9:03 PM Post #3342064
| Steve, B100 can be used in warm climates, eliminating the hydrocarbon aspect of biodiesel. The newer engines are tuned to burn the fuel at a higher temperature, which minimized the NOX and they have particulate matter filters on them. We have B100 available at three pumps locally. The alcohol additive to eliminate the need for the fraction of petrodiesel can be plant based from materials more efficient than corn. While the kinks are being worked out of the cold weather gelling issue, a switch to B80 will greatly reduce the amount of petroleum used.
I agree that electrical engines can be a cheaper renewable resource, but they don't get the milage or have the torque currently. |
garden_mermaid
Sunnyvale, CA
(Zone 9b)
March 31, 2007
9:05 PM Post #3342068
| There is a tremedous amount of untapped electrical generating capacity from wind in the mountains and coastal regions. I'm hoping to see more vertical axis wind generators replacing the propellor type horizontal ones. The vertical axis ones are more efficient and more importantly, they are quiet and less obtrusive. |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 1, 2007
6:02 AM Post #3342867
| Steve, Montana still gets (2005) 44% of its electricity from coal. The approx 50% from hydro is impressive but actually down a fraction compared to 1990. 3% from other renewable is probably mostly wind. GM's point on mileage and output are major. At present, it's just too much of a nuisance to have to re-charge so often, and outside of city driving, people need / want power to accelerate / pass on hwys.
[HYPERLINK@www.eia.doe.gov]
This message was edited Apr 1, 2007 10:17 AM |
Tammy
Barto, PA
(Zone 6b)
April 1, 2007
7:58 AM Post #3343222
| I hadn't realized this forum was here! How interesting.
I believe wind power coupling with highly efficient electric cars is in our future.
I just (skimmed) an article about under water turbine generators as well. I think if
we could just unleash the creative energy of this nation on solving this problem we'll
be fine. But we've got a lot of corporate interests wanting to preserve the status quo.
I heard an analysis a few months ago that if we added up all the costs in protecting
our shipping routes and various other misc "hidden costs" paid for by our government
for the oil industry, it would be several dollars per gallon. If we taxed that directly to
the consumer instead, it would make the prices of alternatives more fair economically.
Tam |
Soferdig
Kalispell, MT
(Zone 4b)
April 1, 2007
8:18 AM Post #3343289
| I agree that 44% of production is from coal but we use less than 30% of our generation here in our unpopulated state. We sell lots of electricity to the rest of the planet. We wished more of our coal would go east to heat NY and other demanding communities. Though it is better for the environment to produce it here where the coal is unfortunatly for all. Electricity travels cheaper than coal. :] |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 1, 2007
10:22 AM Post #3343716
| What is your average cost per kWH, if you don't mind my asking, Steve? |
darius
Marion, VA
(Zone 5b)
April 1, 2007
10:29 AM Post #3343736
| Victor, interesting question for all of us. Mine is 5.4˘ since a recent rate hike of 30%. The state Utility Commission may get the hike repealed, or reduced. |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 1, 2007
10:37 AM Post #3343769
| Wow, that is low. Did VA de-regulate electricity like the geniuses in NY?? Our rates have gone through the roof ever since. Mine varies due to a number of factors but my last bill shows about 14 cents. Much higher in the Summer. See why I've gone solar?? If not I would have gone ballistic. And keep in mind that our bill shows our consumption compared to the average household in the utility's customer base. I am consistently about 60 - 65% lower than everyone else and my house is probably bigger than the average - about 2800 sq feet, with two kids to boot! |
darius
Marion, VA
(Zone 5b)
April 1, 2007
11:18 AM Post #3343904
| Victor, mine was 4.2˘ when I moved here last summer. I have no history with VA so I can't address de-regulation. |
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)
April 1, 2007
12:13 PM Post #3344076
| I'm running about 20 and 1/4 cents during peak hours which is just about everything except Sunday (includes all the distribution fees). Off-peak is 4 cents less. AND I have an 80 gallon water heater which I rent from the electric company for one, fairly frugal person. |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 1, 2007
12:31 PM Post #3344120
| Yankee, do you have a time of use rate?? It seems so. I do too but didn't want to complicate things in my post. In Summer (June through September) there are three distinct periods / rates. Weekdays noon - 7PM is the highest. Weekdays 10A - noon and 7P - 9P is the middle and everything else is the lowest. But those three rates are for transmission and distribution (t&d) only. The supply charge is constant for all three periods and varies each month. Before de-reg, the time of use rate was much better for me. But it is still good and is the deciding factor for me to go solar. I will generate the most at mid-day when I use the least so I will sell back at the highest rate. |
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)
April 1, 2007
12:46 PM Post #3344158
| Looks like we have Summer and Winter rates. On peak as been going from 9 am to 8 pm and the letter from UI says that weekends are off-peak. Starting tomorrow they are changing so on-peak starts at noon during the week. Gee off peak distribution is going up 6/10 of a cent starting tomorrow too. The summer rate is about half a cent more an hour on and off peak. I buy my electric from another vendor and get it at the equivalent of UI's off peak rate all day. |
DiggerDee
Ffld County, CT
(Zone 6b)
April 1, 2007
6:35 PM Post #3345298
| Yankee, what other vendor do you buy electricity from? I wasn't aware we had a choice! Do you get it from that small company in Norwalk?
Dee |
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
5:07 AM Post #3346298
| Yes I do. I think that the name is Levco. The rate all the time is the same as UI's lowest rate. I still have to pay all the distribution fees - but it does save some money. |
DiggerDee
Ffld County, CT
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
6:10 AM Post #3346459
| Thank you. Maybe I'll look into it. I hate changing things like this, especially to a company I never heard of until a few weeks ago, but this UI hike is ridiculous. I've been in touch with a few solar companies, but this rate hike is speeding up the process for me!
Dee |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
7:20 AM Post #3346701
| I changed suppliers a couple of years back. Same one for gas & electric. Saves more on gas - they guarantee the supply charge is 5% below the utility. For electric, they simply guarantee it is lower. It averages about 0.1 cent per kWh below. Digger, the rates only will go up! |
DiggerDee
Ffld County, CT
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
8:30 AM Post #3346966
| Yeah, don't I know it, victor, lol! We just got a 50% rate hike here. Which is why I've been following your solar installation thread with much interest! If only I could get my husband to be a bit greener, but as it is I need to talk in terms of money, not environment with him. At least he is not totally against it, and since he likes the electric company about as much as I do, hopefully persuading him to go solar won't be as hard as I anticipate!
Thanks!
Dee |
Nebraska_Jewel
southeast, NE
April 2, 2007
8:41 AM Post #3347000
| Reply to "It's a government giveaway to farmers. It's not even the best way to get ethanol - cellulose based ethanol is more efficient (using grasses). And ethanol is not the great salvation we've been told. See the Consumer Reports article on it. It decreases auto efficiency, is NOT cheap and can cause maintenance problems. To boot, it is increasing the price of corn to the consumer and luring farmers, who now see it as a cash crop, to stop planting other veggies and switch to corn. None of this is good. "
While I'm not saying that the whole ethanol thing is good or bad - there are definitely pros and cons. It is definitely a major boost to Nebraska's economy. I am still not sure what you mean by the government giveaway. In the past, the USDA Farm Service Agency program has issued loan definicieny payments (LDP's) based on the prices. However, the price last year was in the $1.95 range. So when farmers receive(d) more than $1.95 for their corn, they would not receive a LDP. So in essence, with the high price of corn, the USDA is saving money.
I remember the days (pre ethanol) when the rains were good and corn was yielding high bushels, (an corn was selling at $1.50 a bushel) there were stockpiles of grain on the ground. No one seemed to worry about the amount of corn being sold to other countries at that time.
On another note - Nebraska signed an agreement with Cuba last week to export many of our agricultural products to that country. |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
10:29 AM Post #3347436
| Sounds like whatever the price of corn, the government is subsidizing, no? When prices are low, you say that the gov gives payments. Then, with ethanol, the gov 'creates' demand for the corn, thus driving up the price. |
Nebraska_Jewel
southeast, NE
April 2, 2007
11:16 AM Post #3347564
| So how is the government creating demand for corn?
|
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
11:17 AM Post #3347567
| By mandating ethanol use. |
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
11:37 AM Post #3347630
| Exactly. |
Nebraska_Jewel
southeast, NE
April 2, 2007
12:00 PM Post #3347723
| I must confess that I haven't heard that the government is mandating use. I work for a government agency and we are encouraged but not mandated.
The original subject is that we are taking food from the hungry to use for fuel. So that being said, how are farmers supposed to be paid. Don't get me wrong - I do not believe in the subsidy program. We need some type of pricing system so that farmers get a fair price. |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
12:09 PM Post #3347758
| See the first line of this article.
[HYPERLINK@www.cnbc.com] |
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
12:14 PM Post #3347775
| In Connecticut a certain percentage of ethanol in the mix of gas for personal cars is defined by law. It differs from winter to summer as well.
Re: The farmers - I could be wrong - but in a "market driven" economy isn't payment for goods produced received from the buyers of the goods? Mentioning Cuba again - they are what 40 miles away and have millions of people who could make good use of our agricultural products. If I remember a lecture I attend a couple years ago correctly - we are actually Cuba's second largest trading partner even though it is extremely difficult to get through the paperwork to sell agricultural goods to Cuba. Open up that venue and US farmers will have a much larger market for their goods. |
Nebraska_Jewel
southeast, NE
April 2, 2007
12:23 PM Post #3347802
| Will need to study the mandate more. The article doesn't really answer the question as even in Nebraska we still have gas being sold that doesn't contain the 10% ethanol and there are very few stations that sell E85. I still wonder what the answer is to the initial subject and that is if we don't use corn for fuel, how do we pay farmers to feed to world? |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
12:25 PM Post #3347810
| It's been in gas for all these years and now they want to increase its use. They are encouraging E85 - 85% ethanol!
As for farm subsidies, I don't like them (don't like any gov subsidies to prop up businesses) but the fact is just about every farm product exporting country does it too. If country X is heavily subsidizing their wheat farmers, for example, allowing them to sell to the world at lower prices, then what are we to do? Watch our wheat farmers go out of business?? The playing field has to be level. At the same time I find it obscene that our tax dollars have gone to paying farmers NOT to grow things, while we were also paying for welfare and food stamps, etc. And to subsidize tobacco growers knowing their product was costing us billions in healthcare costs. Does this make any sense??? |
darius
Marion, VA
(Zone 5b)
April 2, 2007
1:03 PM Post #3347946
| It's a conundrum.
(btw, Cuba is 90 miles offshore.) |
spot8907
Ida, MI
April 2, 2007
1:24 PM Post #3348038
| Retracted.
This message was edited Apr 2, 2007 6:02 PM |
darius
Marion, VA
(Zone 5b)
April 2, 2007
1:31 PM Post #3348068
| Spot, I didn't mean the issue is a conundrum... only that the solution is. I agree we need changes to many of the things you mention above. I proudly display a bumper sticker that says "Buy Local Food... Thousands of miles Fresher". |
Terry
Murfreesboro, TN
(Zone 7a)
 April 2, 2007
1:32 PM Post #3348076
| Ahem.
This thread is no longer staying on the "safe" side of the no-politics rule, which is in effect for this forum just as it is for others.
Anytime members start debating government programs (including subsidies) and characterizing subsidies as "welfare", that's a pretty good indication that the line has been crossed.
This subject is interesting - and of obvious interest to a lot of members, but if it can't be discussed without bringing politics into it, the thread will have to be scuttled. |
darius
Marion, VA
(Zone 5b)
April 2, 2007
1:35 PM Post #3348086
| Ahh, The Watchdogs are still working! (LOL) |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
1:44 PM Post #3348117
| Well first of all, those days are simply over. We are in a global economy and there is no going back. Forget it. The genie is out! If we start doing the trade wars thing it benefits no one. 1970's style inflation is the worst scenario possible - especially for people on fixed incomes. What's the bottom line lesson of your scenario, spot? If you want a living wage, if you want a good reliable job you MUST be more educated, learn new technologies, adapt, etc. You can't force American companies to pay higher wages for a skill that is available much cheaper somewhere else. Why? Because now that co.'s competition is not down the street or in the next state - it's across the globe. And that competition is using cheaper labor somewhere else. Bottom line for the American co. - cut labor costs or go out of businesses and provided NO jobs for anyone. That is the cold reality. Educated people are in demand, especially in the high-tech industries. If you're lucky enough to work for someone like Google, you have more than a living wage. |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
1:48 PM Post #3348130
| Oops - I was busy writing while the teacher was talking!! |
spot8907
Ida, MI
April 2, 2007
1:53 PM Post #3348155
| I'm deleting this and my last post but this all ties into sustainability, its difficult to talk about this issue without the politics coming into the question. All models of sustainability point to decetralization and close to consumer production and that is the opposite direction we are going.
This message was edited Apr 2, 2007 6:01 PM |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 2, 2007
2:16 PM Post #3348248
| Here's a link on a failed biofuel.
[HYPERLINK@www.livescience.com] |
spot8907
Ida, MI
April 2, 2007
3:38 PM Post #3348552
| Again we are seeing that the palm oil debacle is another result of trying to follow in the confines of systems put into place by the oil industry. They don't want their product to become obsolete which will happen if companies start investing in systems that cant also burn petroleum products. To truly be sustainable we have to be thinking outside the box of petroleum industry and stop thinking about using land that could produce food for fuel production. Another thing not taken into account with the palm oil thing is the transportation issue. Can you truly say that something that must be shipped thousands of miles is sustainable? IMHO the truly sustainable solutions are to be found in utilizing waste products. What's wrong with methane or any other idea for turning trash into treasure? This is where the research and developement should be going. |
phicks
Lakeland, FL
(Zone 9b)
April 6, 2007
6:48 AM Post #3361493
| I still say Methane is the way to go for fuel for cars and heat and many other things i have a freind who has been makeing his own for 30 years i dont like Castro one bit but what hes saying is true i belive . LOL first time ive ever belived a thing hes said |
Nebraska_Jewel
southeast, NE
April 6, 2007
9:08 AM Post #3361928
| Cuba may not be getting any corn from us but they are getting other agricultural products.
[HYPERLINK@news.tradingcharts.com] |
garden_mermaid
Sunnyvale, CA
(Zone 9b)
April 6, 2007
4:56 PM Post #3363328
| phicks, are you thinking methanol for cars rather than methane? I would think that methane, like natural gas, would have some stability issues and be more potentially explosive during a fender-bender on the road than the liquid methanol. Agree that we could harness a lot of methane from our waste products for generation of electricity.
My DH had a permit from the ATF many years ago to brew methanol as a fuel for his motorcycle. It worked very well. Unfortunately he had a difficult time keeping his employees from breaking into the supply and finally stopped making it as he didn't want to be responsible for their adverse health consequences. |
victorgardener
Lower Hudson Valley, NY
(Zone 6b)
April 14, 2007
6:01 PM Post #3392194
| Some news:
[HYPERLINK@news.yahoo.com]
|
Mahnot
DFW area, TX
(Zone 7b)
April 14, 2007
7:45 PM Post #3392705
| You might find this of interest:
[HYPERLINK@www.businessweek.com] |
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)
April 15, 2007
4:04 AM Post #3393186
| Thank you for posting the articles. |
Dyson
Rocky Mount, VA
(Zone 7a)
April 15, 2007
4:34 AM Post #3393263
|
| Quoted: | | I think that we need to divide up the US into say 4 countries and make border crossing difficult. |
Have you tried to fly anywhere since 9/11? |
dave719
Humansville, MO
(Zone 6a)
April 19, 2007
12:02 PM Post #3408953
| I have yet to see anyone say anything about the land that is in conservation holdings that could be put back into production to raise fuel of one type or another theirs a lot of land that could do sugar beets or sun flowers that hasn't seen a crop in years I know theres some in my family that hasn't seen crops on it over 10 years in the last fifty it's good corn ground it was doing 110 bushel per the last time it was used and that has been at least 20 years ago but the government was paying $5 more an acre that it would rent for you folks don't want your food to go on the open market if it did it would take twice as many days work to pay for food as it does now
|
Soferdig
Kalispell, MT
(Zone 4b)
April 25, 2007
9:20 PM Post #3431838
| Yes Dyson and we all know who has won with the attack on 9/11. |
