My father-in-law has said that zucchini and summer squash will cross polinate to create a combo veggie squashchini (well he didn't really call it that, but it sounds funny lol ). Anyhow, I am planting squash and zucchini as well as some iceboxwatermelons, smaller variety of melons (canteloupe and honeydew), 3 different varieties of pumpkins and 2 different cucumbers. Do I need to place the different varieties of each type in opposite areas of the garden? I had planned to have one section for watermelon and canteloupes, one section for cucs, and the pumpkins I am going to plant among my corn and other veggies for weed control since my space is limited and they grow like mad!
Anyone have experience with this or have knowledge on how I should plant these fruits and veggies?
Thanks so much in advance. I have to go out for a bit, but will check back later. :)
Unless you are saving seeds for next year, I don't think you need to worry. I've done some checking on this, and there are some good articles on the web. They seem to indicate that this years crop will be "normal" but next years might be bizarre. I'm guessing that the squashes would cross with the squashes, the watermelons with the other melons, and cukes with cukes. This is very simplistic, and I hope Farmerdill or someone else who has a clue will clarify this:)
That is basicly it. No need to worry unless you are savings seeds. If you are saving seeds, most squash and pumpkins will cross with each other. Cantaloupe will cross with each other and Armenian cukes. Regular cukes only cross among themselves. Ditto with watermelons
hmmmm. Maybe I'll save some seeds. I spent quite a while today trying to figure out what vine was what. In one spot I have Sweet Dumpling, Butternut, and Spaghetti squashes all tangled up with a Connecticut Field Pumpkin. The Butternut and the Spaghetti look as if the are together on the same vine, and the Sweet Dumplings and the little pumpkins are within a foot. Might be fun to grow them out, could any crosses be harmful, or just atrocious tasting?
Sweet Dumpling, Spaghetti, and Connecticut field pumpkins will cross, They will also cross with your summer squash ( like crooknecks, zucchini, and scallops. Butternuts are a different species. None of the crosses will be harmful, but may not be good eating, especially the winter squash-summer squash crosses.
Sorry I didn't make it back on yesterday. Thank you so much for your help. I didn't think it would be a problem b/c I have seen people with very small plots grow summer squash and zucchini in close proximity and they produced their normal fruit. My father-in-law is very helpful at times, but he is the most stubborn man when it comes to trying something new (Even if his way is not working). I guess I will be set in my ways too when I get old, but sometimes it frustrates me. Example:
Every year at least half the tomatoes produced by his plants have blossom rot. I worked in the college library at the time as an intern and found an enormous amount of literature they were throwing out pertaining to tomatoes and other vegetables. One of the articles said to mulch the plants. I told him this and offered the literature to read. He didn't want to read it. He insisted that the plants would get diseases from the mulch. That was ten years ago. Every year he does the same thing he did the year before, and every year he and my mother-in-law complain about the blossom rot on their tomatoes. Their philosophy applies to any and everything including medical issues. Sorry I got way off on a tangent.(guess I needed to vent) BTW, they live next door/in front of us, so I deal with this sort of thing daily. I know they are going to die off when I begin mulching my garden in the next few days. :)
Thank you again!! Now I guess I need to think about saving seed for next year, hmmm . . .
Sorry if once again I'm heisting someone else's thread, but I DO have a question on this topic. Several days ago we noticed an odd shaped zucchini forming on our plant nearest the yellow crookneck squash plant in the garden. At the time I assumed it was just an oddity and thought no more about it. However, since then, I've begun to realize that it looks just like a green zucchini with the shape of a yellow crookneck squash! All the other zucchini have formed very straight except this one. I believe we may indeed have a "squashchini" on our hands!!! Is this possible for them to cross-pollinate, and if so, would this be a likely result?
They do cross polinate, but it does not affect the first year crop. I f you save the seeds and plant, then you will have mixed squash. If you used fresh, pure seeds than your crooked zuchinni is just an abberation. They will sometimes grow misshapen for various reasons including incomplete pollination, physical damage, etc. I plant multiple zuchinni, crooknecks and scallops in the same patch with no problems.
Thanks again, Farmerdill! This is the first year for the garden, and so we did use true zucchini seeds. I have to say I'm a little disappointed that it's not a "squashcini. I was looking forward to cutting it open and trying it! Oh well...I guess I'll just save some seeds if I want to turn out some unusual vegetables!
I wonder if someone could clarify something for me: It has always been my understanding that cross-pollination between different species (as mentioned above in this thread) has no effect on the fruit but does affect the seed. That is confirmed in a couple responses above. However, the following quote from above throws me off a bit...
"None of the crosses will be harmful, but may not be good eating, especially the winter squash-summer squash crosses."
Farmerdill, are you saying that the fruit produced by the cross-pollination can affect the taste of the fruit that year or are you saying that it can affect the taste of fruit produced the next year if the seed produced from the cross-pollination is is planted the next year?
Next year. and cross pollination rarely occurs between species. Summer squash (zucchini, scallops, crooknecks , straight necks ) are all C. pepo as are many winter squash and pumpkins. The C. moschata group ( butternuts, some other winter squash and pumpkins) don't normally cross with C. pepo.
We actually manually pollinated a zucchini plant with pollen from a pumpkin plant by accident. We thought the zucchini plant was a pumpkin plant. We are getting 4 zucchini now but they are all yellow instead of green. So we indead have a zucchinikin. Any idea if that will be edible or if we should just use it a decoration? We will not be saving any seed from this plant.
You probably had a yellow zuke to start with. Many pumpkins will cross with zucchini and pumpkinis are common, but it only occurs in the second generation . There are dozens of cultivars of yellow zucchinis.
Farmerdill a question for you, watermelon and cantalope cross? If not can a seed from an Ambrosia cantalope revert to what it was bred from? Got a volunteer in my compost pile that has huge cantalope looking melons. It could only have come from a rotten cantalope or two I threw on the pile last year. These jokers already measure 9 inchs in diameter and are still green and growing. That is much bigger than the original cantalopes were.
Thanks Farmerdill, I was thinking that this thing had reverted back to something else because it was so much larger that the mother cantalope it had to have come from. I'm going to let them ripen and see what it tastes like. I suspect the taste is not going to be very good. We'll see.
This is in response to lookinforoz. The problem that you have with your father-in- law is the exactly the same problem that I had with my father. My dad was a hard headed fellow who did not listen to anything I said. He threw out a multitude of tomatoes because they had rotten spots. I was the bookish child who told him that his problem was called blossom end rot and was caused by a lack of calcium in the dirt. So the next time I saw him throwing a rotten tomato away I asked why his tomatoes had rotten spots, and he responded that the soil was diseased. I have now inherited access to his "diseased soil", and have ammended the dirt with all kinds of mulches and bone meal which takes away the calcium deficiency and adds phosphorous for the watermelons and tomatoes.
However, this last year I told my mother that I was going to grow watermelons. and she responded, "Your father never could grow watermelons on that land." Then I got on the intermnet and learned all I could about watermelons to see what else my hard headed father was doing wrong besides not using bone meal or some other calcium adding ammendment. I learned that his biggest problem was the clay bed. So I dug a trench with my shovel and filled it with rabbit manure that a nice lady let me have if I cleaned out all of her rabbit hutches. Of course I added lots of bone meal and spared no expense there either. Now I have Sugar Babies that have almost reached their peak and are beginning to show signs of growing all that they are going to grow. However, they are still growing strong. They are planted next to some Desert King (yellow) watermelons which are just beginning to produce the largest prettiest watermelons that I have ever grown. I have eaten one, saved the seeds, and already planted a few as I hope that these vines will produce watermelons quickly as the Sugar Babies and make a few by October if we have a late ending warm Mississippi growing season as we sometimes do. I only came to this thread hoping that someone could tell me what to expect if I planted some Desert Kings next to Sugar Babies and saved the seeds as I have. Does anyone know what the outcome might be like?
My guess would be that it could be like either parent, or somewhere between them both. If either of those varieties is a hybrid, than there is no telling what will result.
Since they're both watermelons, I'd be hugely tempted to try...:)
Farmerdill, one more question if you can stand it --
Many people say that growing hot peppers and bell or other sweet peppers together will result in the sweet peppers (that growing year) being hot. I've never had this happen myself, although I always grow both, but could the seeds from the cross possibly be hot? (But then, who eats the seeds from a bell pepper?)
Hmmmm...Thought I had a spaghetternut squash on my hands...it must be my imagination since this is their first year. My most recent butternut squash have been showing up with stripes which I don't remember on the first few, but which I did notice on the spaghetti squash. I suppose I should pay closer attention. :)
I KNOW that this is not supposed to happen, had a big argument with my exMIL. I have a degree in Biology and she couldnt stand that I contradict her in anyway. BUT I have seen zuke x yellow croakneck squash on the same vine as normal fruits. I understand that this shouldnt/cant happen but the fruit was definately not normal. I cant explain it but Ive had it happen.
I'm pretty sure zukes and crooknecks can cross, both being C. pepo. So if the plants you saw, Lisa, came from seeds of crossed plants I'm sure you'd see some variants and quite possibly on the same plant. Right?
Shoe-Yes, that could have been it. It was in my neighbor's garden, a few years back. I remember being under the impression that these were store bought seeds and that these weird looking fruit were a direct result of X pollination, at that time. I dont know...
I have also been told that hot and sweet peppers dont "show" the X until the seeds are grown out. But I can say that Ive been caught off guard by some very hot, sweet peppers.
However, I now realize it must have been the seeds (next generation) that made those sweet peppers so dang hot.
Hi, I've been reading the info concerning cross pollination of squash. I have a spaghetti squash plant that I planted next to my zucchini squash plant. Interesting that some on the forum are saying that a cross pollination of the two plants wont affect that years fruit. I have three normal looking Spaghetti squash on the vine and on spaghetti squash on the exact same vine that has the same markings as the zucchini squash it is green with speckles and really looks like a cross between the two it is the same exact shape as the other spaghetti squash. So how is that possible if it wont affect this years fruit? there has never been a garden planted at any other time in the area I made my garden this year. Can anyone explain this?
I had the same thoughts (thread "a spaghetti squash of a different color") but the suspect squash grew up to be quite normal :). Looked and tasted just like the others from the same planting once it matured. If it's just an odd fruit on a vine with normal fellows, I'd just think it's a mutation. I'd probably save seeds from it just to see, but then, I sometimes have too much time on my hands...
One thing to consider, is whether it's possible that the seeds had come from a place with possible cross-pollination. I'm betting this is possible more often than we might think, even in big operations. Unless everything is grown in a flow controlled greehouse, or every flower hand pollinated and bagged, I'll bet accidents happen :)
"I only came to this thread hoping that someone could tell me what to expect if I planted some Desert Kings next to Sugar Babies and saved the seeds as I have. Does anyone know what the outcome might be like?" - JAnnetteW
Yes. If those two watermelon varieties cross, and if you save seeds, then the plants and melons grown from those seeds will be F1 (first generation) hybrids. There will be two dominant genes or a dominant gene and a recessive gene in each pairing for each characteristic, and dominant characteristics will always display in that generation.
That is, if one of your melon varieties is yellow inside and the other is red inside, and if red is dominant over yellow (red is dominant in tomatoes, anyway), then all your F1 hybrid melons would be red inside. In fact, all your F1 melon plants and melons would be identical in every way to each other, with dominant genes, uh, dominating in every pairing.
But if you save and plant seeds from those F1 hybrids, then the next (F2) generation would be unstable. Some recessive genes could pair up, and different plants could display different characteristics in unpredictable ways. Sometimes new and desirable qualities arise in this way, and when that happens seeds are saved and planted from successive generations until those qualities stabilize. That's how new OP vegetable varieties are created.
But doesn't that assume that at least one parent has two dominant genes? Isn't it possible to have two varieties that each have both a dominant and a recessive? Which would give you possibilities that don't resemble either parent? I know when I've crossed tomatoes that F1 isn't always identical, but then, I've never been very scientific about it...
I have gotten some very odd F1 squashes (and I don't know which of my squash varieties contirbuted genetic material), but have yet to carry it any farther, conditions this year were not helpful :(.
Ah, Mendel's Experiment #1. It reminds me of high school biology class about 1963 with the teacher droning on endlessly and me thinking more about that cute girl in the front row than about my work. Hmmm - what the heck was her name, anyway? LOL
You're right. That simple example (having to do with the shape of peas) assumes that one parent carries two dominant genes (SS) for that trait and the other parent carries two recessive genes (ss) for the same trait. In that case, the F1 hybrids would all have the (Ss) pairing and would all exhibit the dominant trait (round peas). However, since the F1 hybrids all CARRY the recessive (s) gene, the F2 generation would be of four (really three) different kinds - (SS), (Ss), (sS), and (ss). Three because (Ss) and (sS) are the same. In that generation, 3 of 4 plants would grow peas that are round, and only (ss) plants would grow wrinkled peas as there would be no dominant (S) gene present in those.
Now, if both parents carried only the recessive (ss) pairing then the F1 generation and all the ones after would bear wrinkled peas, since no dominant (S) was ever present. What I'm unsure about (should have paid more attention in that class) is how that works if the original parent combination is (Ss)(ss) or (Ss)(Ss). I know that F1 hybrids are supposed to be identical to each other, always, with all the dominant genes that are present in either parent displaying in each characteristic.
That's how it's worked for me. I made a "wide cross" of two very dissimilar tomato varieties in 2009. Last year I grew F1 hybrids from the crossed seeds and the hybrids were all identical to each other. The hybrids displayed all the dominant traits in size, shape, foliage, color, everything. This year I grew F2 plants from seeds saved from the F1's and they're all over the place, as they should be. I've got red hearts, pink hearts, gold semi-hearts, red semi-hearts, pink oblates, thick foliage, wispy foliage - all grown from the same seeds. Lots of variation, and I'm selecting for superior flavor to carry, it looks like, 3 strains to the next generation. Fascinating stuff, I think!
Not really a current issue around here, but yes, I find it very unsettling, in many ways. This thread is more about accidental (probably harmless) garden variety cross-pollination resulting in, um, interesting progeny :)
Well, IF there's a problem with that (and I'm not going to get into such a political issue here) - the issue is that the growing of Round-Up resistant crops is causing a lot more Round-Up to be used in commercial farming. Any problems associated with that would come from possible over-use of glyphosate herbicides, not the existence of food-plant strains that can tolerate those herbicides.
MrPappyG - fortunately I live in a neighborhood far from where (hopefully) GMO crops are grown. I do, however, fear that I might inadvertently purchase GMO seeds without the information being given before hand.
The only possibility at present of round up ready crossing in vegetables is sweet corn crossing with field corn or edible soybeans (edamame) crossing with field soybeans. Of course Syngenta has Bt sweet corn on the market, the only GMO presently available in vegetables. Not much danger at present of getting a GMO vegetable seed. Syngenta will only sell to commercial growers and there is considerable paper work.
I was just going to add what Farmerdill said. The veggies we are discussing here arent available as GMOs (corn and soybeans are to commercial growers) and you cant just buy GMO seeds off the self. Although you can buy food off the shelf that is made from GMOs. So unless you live somewhere where there are huge commercial growers your chances are slim to none of your veggies getting X with GMOS and that would only be an issue if you were growing corn or soybeans.
I love this thread about "Who's your Daddy?"LOL I hope it doesnt go in the direction of misinformation.
"So unless you live somewhere where there are huge commercial growers your chances are slim to none of your veggies getting X with GMOS and that would only be an issue if you were growing corn or soybeans."
AND, if the slim chance happened (getting your garden corn crossed with GMO corn), it wouldn't make any difference unless you saved seeds and planted them. In that case, the corn of that next generation would be resistant to herbicide - not a big deal, I think. Anyway, I doubt many people save their own corn seeds as most varieties are hybrids.
I'm not going to stick up for Monsanto and big farming corporations, though, when it comes to wholesale spraying of Round-Up because their GMO crops are resistant and that's the cheapest way to control weeds. I don't have the expertise to know, but instinct tells me that practice probably isn't good and somebody who's qualified needs to figure it out for sure.
At the very least, I betcha they're going to cause a bunch of weeds to become Round-Up resistant in time. Nature has a way of getting around adversity, you know.
I appreciate all of your responses, I truly do, I live in Southern New Jersey, from Boston and Maine originally, ( Maine is the Family Farm, everyone in the family spend's time there), I'm not a Shy Person, and Recently I went to nearby Farm's and asked what type of seed they used, this was around 4 year's ago, I was shocked to find most of the Commercial Farmer's in the area were using Round-Up Seed, I'm not trying to make this a Political debate, or anything more than it is, I love my 4 Organic Garden's, but I am concerned about cross pollination. I just recently Planted Organic Potato, they're already sprouting, I think I see an emergence of Broccoli, My Brandywine Beefsteak,s are amazing, and I just Planted Cauliflower, Nantes, Bloomsdale, Detroit Red's, and Cos, for a (Hopefully Abundant), fall crop, any other suggestion's would be appreciated.
Ya know, I re-thought something I said above, and I think I was wrong.
In the veggies I deal with most, like tomatoes, there's no need to be concerned with possible cross-pollination unless you're saving seeds for the next generation. That is - a tomato growing on a vine of a certain variety will have all the characteristics of that variety, even though the seeds inside it may be crossed.
But that's not true with corn - because it's the corn SEEDS we're eating, not fruits surrounding the seeds. Gardeners have to be careful about planting different corn varieties next to each other because of cross-pollination problems that will affect THAT year's crop.
And I've even noticed that in tomatoes. When I crossed a variety that normally has small dark seeds with one that has large light seeds I got tomatoes in THAT GENERATION with seeds of the same appearance as the "father" plant. So I'm gonna say that when a cross occurs, fruits surrounding seeds are still of the present generation but the seeds themselves (as in corn) are already of the next. There's a profound thought, huh?
Lisa, that's got to be right. I hadn't thought about it before, but if seeds inside a fruit are already of the next generation, then sure, a sweet pepper that got crossed with a hot pepper would have hot seeds.
That's kinda mind-blowing to me - to think that every seed in every tomato I harvest now, in 2011, is already a complete, live, 2012 tomato plant! The next generation starts when the seed forms, not when it's planted. Wow.
I think those are excellent observations, ya'll, and I believe them to be true. Great going, great perspectives.
PappyG: >>"but I am concerned about cross pollination. I just recently Planted Organic Potato, they're already sprouting, I think I see an emergence of Broccoli, My Brandywine Beefsteak,s are amazing, and I just Planted Cauliflower, Nantes, Bloomsdale, Detroit Red's, and Cos, for a (Hopefully Abundant), fall crop, any other suggestion's would be appreciated."
No need to worry about crossing of your "organic" potato since you've not planted any other variety, and if you had they wouldn't cross unless you collected flower seed, which very few people do. You'll be saving, if you choose, your potatoes for your next crop for "seeding".
You only list one tomato, Brandywine (normally just called that, not 'Brandywine Beefsteak', by the way) so no chance of it crossing with another tomato.
All your other plants listed won't cross unless you leave them till next spring to flower. Hopefully by then you'll have harvested and enjoyed the good eats you have planted.
Hope this helps.
Shoe (still chuckling at Lisa's ability to kill plants before growing them...but it's true, eh!?) :>P)
Horseshoe, I also grew, Certified San Marzano, Early Girl, Best Boy, Variety's of Tomato, and was Lucky enough to know some College Kid's who are attempting to bring back the True Jersey Tomato, the Rutger's, and grew some of their seed's this Year, NOW THAT'S a Tomato, lol...I tried some Grape Tomato's, B.I... wasn't impressed really, anyone that has a really sweet suggestion for Grape Tomato Seed, Please let me know,Basically this year was an experimental hence the Four Garden's one was Strictly, seed testing.
I can't complain though, I'm eating my Celery, Tyee Spinach, Nante's Carrot's and Rothschild, Early Bull's Blood Beet's were amazing, some Cos, but a wet Season, Tomato's all season, Cucumber's and then Pickled already in the Jar, Corn was sweet but not full ear's, had trouble with corn early, after the Hurricane, and Tropical Storm, (a Week Apart), Thing's worked out ...I think I've eaten the Best String bean of my Life this year, just had some with dinner, a Haricot Verte, still picking 11 1/2 inch sweet juicy cucumber's, I'm doing something right and still a few thing's wrong I'm sure, but no Complaint's.
Sounds to me like you're having a good time gardening, PappyG. Go for it.
Glad to hear you survived Irene and the storms.
As for the "true jersey tomato", it's been back in production for several years now. You'll find it listed as Ramapo in many circles. "Rutger's" is its predecessor and you may like it also. Another Rutger's introduction, much better liked by many is Moreton. You should try them all. (I bet you'll like Moreton best but then again individual taste buds come into play here.)
I do Love the Garden's, and I have tried Ramapo last Year, very nice tomato, I'll see the BOy's from Rutger's this year at the Philadelphia Flower Show, actually my Daughter is attending Rutger's this year, and Penn State next semester heading for her Veterinary Degree, anyway I will try the Moreton next season, any Ideas on a great Grape tomato Seed...???
I was sorry to hear that Landreth Co. one of the oldest seed houses in the country might be closing, I only met them last year. they have some amazing heirloom seed pack's, and how to grow section that's very informative. Thanks for the Kind Word's Horseshoe, any Suggestion's on seed's, especially Eggplant and Grape tomato's I'm all ears. Enjoy.
I know this thread has been dead a while but I just wanted to say thanks for everyones posts because they answered a question of mine.
I want to grow two different watermelons this year but I was worried the melons would be different if pollinated by each other. If it only affects the seeds for the next generation then thats fine with me because most of what I grow are hybrids and I rarely save seeds from my veggies.
I guess I should have known the answer already since I'm currently taking a genetics course :p oh well haha
Please also keep in mind, if you DO want to save seeds from watermelon or anything else in the cucumber family, it's very easy to hand-pollinate, and then bag your female blossom until the fruit starts forming.
I was actually told to do that on DG, or a qtip. What do you mean use my hand? I get pollen from a male flower and pollintate all the female flowers that are open. When I do this I get a much higher rate of pollination and they are O/P so they come true to seed, so I can save the seeds and get a lot of cukes.
Sometimes I break off a male bloom and pollinate the female blooms with it. Most of the time I just let nature take its course.
So the zucchini I just harvested with the extremely hard skin/shell, firm yellow-ish flesh, and huge seeds is probably a hybrid? This is the third generation of compost volunteers, acorn, zucchini, and cantaloupe were what came up the last two years. The last zucc I harvested (from a different plant) was abnormally fat, but otherwise typical. I'll eat just about anything so I'm not upset, just curious what to expect next year. Will the seeds fruit be highly variable? The weather this year was odd, so flowering has been erratic. It started in May and I'm still getting flowers the last week of August. Also, has anyone had experience with squash send up new growth from the nodes (with flowers and tendrils) after fruit has matured?
I found this forum when I googled, "cross between spaghetti squash and buttercup squash." I purchased a winter variety pack of squash from groworganic.com. It was supposed to contain spaghetti, butternut and buttercup. I have butternut and spaghetti squash growing but also had a mystery squash growing more than the other two combined and no buttercup ;( I have attached pics of it from a few weeks ago, many of them have since turned orange/yellow.)
I sent a pic to the company and was told it is probably a hybrid cross between the spaghetti and buttercup. I picked one yesterday to see what it is like inside, spaghetti like or solid. Haven't cut into it yet. I am disappointed that I ended up without any buttercups. I will have to see if this cross squash is any good to eat. Anyone else ever have this happen?
Agree that it is a cross. But NOT between a buttercup (C. maxima) and spaghetti squash C. pepo). Butternut is C. moschata. Three different species that don't cross under normal conditions. What ever it is happened before you got the seeds.
has anyone tried a cross of trombolini and butternut? If both cross pollinate,next year will the seeds from the cross pollinated trombolini be a different fruit from the seeds cross pollinated from the butternut,or both be the same kind of hybrid?
That will explain that each parent donates genes for certain characteristics. Lets say you were trying to follow the color and texture of the skin of these squashes.
One parent might donate the tan-pink color and smooth skin.
The other might donate the speckled skin and bumps
The F-1 (first filial, or children) can only inherit these traits, but which is dominant? Which is recessive? I have NO idea. The F-1 generation will carry all those genes, and might pass some of them on to the F-2 generation. (Grandchildren of the original parents). This is where it really gets mixed up. You have only a few clues as to what was dominant and what was recessive, so only a few hints of what the F-2 genotype is like.
This is what Gregor Mendel spent a lifetime figuring out, using peas.