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Soil and Composting: Green Manure/Cover Crop

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Ozark
Ozark, MO
(Zone 6a)

September 18, 2007
4:38 PM

Post #3989372

I'm taking out parts of my summer garden now. Yesterday I took out the bush bean plants, fertilized and tilled that area, and planted beets. I have another section with old melon vines to take out, and will soon harvest fall corn and take those cornstalks out too.

As those areas become open, I'd like to till, fertilize, and plant a nitrogen-fixing cover crop. We've got 5 or 6 weeks before hard frost, and that should be enough time to get something up. I'd let it stand all fall and winter, till it under about March, and plant veggies there again in May.

I did this with winter rye one time, but I don't think that accomplished much except putting organic material in the soil. What could I plant now that would do better, and would maybe add some nitrogen when I plow it under?

I've got a good farm supply store nearby and could probably get most any kind of seed. I'm looking for suggestions. Thanks.
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 18, 2007
7:21 PM

Post #3989995

Down here they use rape seed. I think you can also use fava beans.
I think you can also use clover, but there are specialized types.
Your local seed source should know, especially if you have a farmer's coop. Otherwise, check with your state extension office.

paulgrow

paulgrow
Allen Park, MI
(Zone 6a)

September 18, 2007
9:10 PM

Post #3990411

We use buckwheat up here.

Vetch is another good source of N also.


Paul

This message was edited Sep 18, 2007 5:12 PM
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 18, 2007
9:58 PM

Post #3990620

Vetch is invasive here. It doesn't go away. Buckwheat is great for conditioning soil because it has hollow stems. It takes air into clay soil.
It is a summer crop here.
ezgroonly
Fountaintown, IN
(Zone 5b)

September 19, 2007
1:02 AM

Post #3991172

Previous owners added a deck with swimming pool to the property I now own. The potter's clay that they dug out was dumped right where I want my flower garden! How inconsiderate!!!
Please tell me what to add to heavy clay to make it something in which plants will thrive.
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 19, 2007
7:46 AM

Post #3992108

esgroonly: some people recommend adding gypsum to clay to improve the soil structure. I think the best thing to do is to build raised lasagna beds. The more humus you add, the better your soil will be.

For larger areas you can cover crop with buckwheat. Buckwheat has hollow straws so it takes air into the soil. But any cover crop will add humus and that's what you want to improve clay soil. Ask your local extension agent about good winter crops for your area.

paulgrow

paulgrow
Allen Park, MI
(Zone 6a)

September 19, 2007
10:24 AM

Post #3992213

Organic material, and compost, you can never get enough

Paul
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 19, 2007
1:59 PM

Post #3992746

Ive heard that clay soil, once it gets some humus into it, is really the best garden soil there is because it retains water. Don't forget to collect leaves this fall.
Ozark
Ozark, MO
(Zone 6a)

September 20, 2007
4:10 PM

Post #3997298

I picked up 2.4 lbs. of buckwheat seed yesterday. What a deal - it only cost $1.47.

Buckwheat's not what you'd think of as wheat at all. The seeds are black and triangular, they kinda look like little Brazil nuts. Pictures of the buckwheat plant show that it's more like clover - with a spreading habit, broad leaves, and blooms. I'm going to try it and see what happens.
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 20, 2007
4:27 PM

Post #3997373

It is usually a summer crop, but it does come on quickly so you might be able to get in a crop before freezing weather. the blossoms invite bees. And, you can use the seeds for pillows!

ezgroonly
Fountaintown, IN
(Zone 5b)

September 20, 2007
5:35 PM

Post #3997608

SO NICE for so many to respond!!

What about peat moss? That seems to be a readily available form of organic matter, and I don't have to wait for it to grow before I incorporate it.

Will also use gypsum; WHAT is a lasagna bed? Sounds delicious, but not too comfy!

I'll also look for buckwheat...at Ag One? Garden supply? Other?

Many thanks,
Carol
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 20, 2007
5:54 PM

Post #3997671

What is a lasagna bed?

Here is a start:

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/685261/

paulgrow

paulgrow
Allen Park, MI
(Zone 6a)

September 20, 2007
6:53 PM

Post #3997907

You should be able to find buckwheat at any feed store.

Or you can watch a rerun of the Little Rascals.

Paul
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

September 21, 2007
5:22 PM

Post #4002084

Heh - you're cute.

Carol, peat moss is good stuff.
Katye
Sammamish, WA
(Zone 7b)

September 23, 2007
5:01 AM

Post #4007250

Hi from the Pacific Northwest.
I have used buckwheat with excellent results, and another that was great for my clay is Crimson Clover. We don't normally get extreme winter temps, so it does overwinter, albeit, looking a bit haggardly by February. It is very easy to till under & for the stray seedlings that come up later, easy to pull.
Favas work well, but for earlier plantings. Vetch made nice soil, but ditto to Gloria's comment.
As an aside - are you all ready for winter? We had such a cool/wet summer that many of us are in radical denial here...Hope it's not a repeat of Winter 2006.
Take care!
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 23, 2007
12:19 PM

Post #4007569

We are so hung up on "global warming" that we forget it is also extreme winters. I understand there have been frost warnings already in Michigan. Here, it was mid-September before it was fit to be outside because of the heat. I don't think its going to make for a mild winter. We are finally getting some rain because of the tropical storms in the gulf.

paulgrow

paulgrow
Allen Park, MI
(Zone 6a)

September 23, 2007
1:14 PM

Post #4007722

In Ann Arbor Michigan it got down to 30 one morning last week.
Very unusual for this time of year. Back in the 80's now.

Paul
Ozark
Ozark, MO
(Zone 6a)

September 24, 2007
12:10 AM

Post #4009717

Here, we're in the zone between real cold winters and warmer temps. That's bad in a way, because we get ice storms. That happens when the clouds up above are warmer and raining, and the rain falls into sub-freezing temps at ground level.

Last year an ice storm here broke so many trees down that some people were without power for weeks. I don't like cold winters, but I think up north where it's really cold they don't get so much of that.
Indy
Alexandria, IN
(Zone 6a)

September 25, 2007
1:57 AM

Post #4013959

Speaking of peat moss...I just got 2 yds. today from a local bog. It comes premoistened and is such a good and cheap amendment.
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 25, 2007
12:01 PM

Post #4014827

There have been arguments that peat is a nonrenewable resource.
There really is no replacement for it in potting soil that I know about anyway.
Indy
Alexandria, IN
(Zone 6a)

September 26, 2007
12:58 AM

Post #4017303

I don't think that it is a non renewlable resourse. Apparent;y it is regenerating faster in the wilds of Canada than we are using it. I think that the arguments start with the disruption of the native purity and such like issues

Again, my peat came from a local Indiana bog with little transportation.
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

September 26, 2007
12:56 PM

Post #4018645

Good - I did google it before putting my comment up - looks like there's a group of folks in Canada who are managing it in a responsible way - I wish I could have found a similar group in the US.
garden_mermaid
San Francisco Bay Ar, CA
(Zone 9b)

September 27, 2007
3:52 AM

Post #4021780

We bought a block coco coir and used that instead of peat this past year. It seems to work as well in potting mixes and as an amendment.
Katye
Sammamish, WA
(Zone 7b)

September 27, 2007
4:31 AM

Post #4021855

GM - how was it to work with? I had heard about using coir, but since peat moss is "known" to most people, the stores don't stock it.
I'm sure it's available at one of the specialty nursuries. Will check out.
garden_mermaid
San Francisco Bay Ar, CA
(Zone 9b)

September 27, 2007
7:44 PM

Post #4024167

I find coir easier to work with than peat moss. We buy the large size dried blocks from stores that carry hydroponic supplies (yes, your friend and neighbors *will* wonder what you intend to grow when you inquire about hydroponic supplies! LOL!).
The dried coir bricks expand A LOT! So break up the bigger blocks or be sure to put them into a really large container when you rehydrate them.
TARogers5
Kingston, OK
(Zone 7a)

September 27, 2007
7:59 PM

Post #4024211

Use Turface to break up the clay soil, so it drains
I get mine at the feed store here.
The cheapest is to buy the stuff the schools use on ball diamonds.
Ozark
Ozark, MO
(Zone 6a)

September 28, 2007
12:40 AM

Post #4025080

I think I'm going to like buckwheat as a green manure crop.

In my garden, I've taken out everything but the tomatoes and peppers around the outside fence. I planted a couple of rows of beets, but I've tilled and fertilized the rest of the garden and planted buckwheat.

The buckwheat came up four days after planting. It's a big plant with a big seed, and it's growing fast. In spite of the name, it's not a grass like wheat. It looks more like clover.

The blue pellets between the buckwheat seedlings are a slow-release fertilizer I scattered, it's pretty weak stuff.

Thumbnail by Ozark
Click the image for an enlarged view.

Katye
Sammamish, WA
(Zone 7b)

September 28, 2007
5:00 AM

Post #4025862

Ozark - I really liked the Buckwheat - it was so easy to deal with & when sowed early enough gave great results in regards to speed/rate of germination, and tilth when worked in early spring.
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 28, 2007
12:34 PM

Post #4026326

Ozark: most people I know who grow buckwheat also have bees.
Katye
Sammamish, WA
(Zone 7b)

September 29, 2007
3:32 AM

Post #4029433

Gloria - "have bees" as in keeping them or as visitors?
I don't keep any, but they seem to love my property. We are very concerned about the diminishing Honeybee population. I was getting worried last Spring - the numbers were way down. But about the beginning of July they were all over the place. The Varoa mite & CCD have taken their toll.
Ozark
Ozark, MO
(Zone 6a)

September 29, 2007
4:33 AM

Post #4029597

If buckwheat is as useful as I think it is, it's got me thinking about another project.

We live on a six-acre place. About half of it is woods and the rest is "pasture", though I don't have any animals on it. It's just grass I mow 4 or 5 times a season with a tractor and brushhog.

About half an acre of that is "bottomland" at the bottom of our hill. It's a natural drainage with black clay silt instead of the poor red rocky stuff on the hillside. The grass always grows a lot higher in that area.

I'm thinking about poisoning out the fescue and Johnson grass down there, plowing it under, then planting buckwheat. I'd keep turning the buckwheat under and maybe build some good soil in time. Also a friend already keeps beehives on our place, so maybe we'd get more good honey.

Yeah, I know, Johnson grass is tough to get rid of. With my tractor and turning plow, though, I ought to be able to keep ahead of it. The idea is to plant buckwheat for the bees and also make a new patch for melons, which now take up so much room in my vegetable garden.
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 29, 2007
12:25 PM

Post #4030032

katye: they keep bees and grow buckwheat because the bees love it when it blooms. I think most people try to turn under the buckwheat before it blooms if they are just growing it for soil improvement purposes.

Ozark: I wonder if you couldn't just cut that johnson and fescue grass and plant buckwheat on top of it, using the buckwheat to crowd out the other grasses?
Ozark
Ozark, MO
(Zone 6a)

September 29, 2007
7:59 PM

Post #4031200

"Ozark: I wonder if you couldn't just cut that johnson and fescue grass and plant buckwheat on top of it, using the buckwheat to crowd out the other grasses?"
--------------------
I doubt it. Fescue grass puts a toxin in the soil that keeps other plants from growing. Fescue has to be dead before that toxin starts to diminish.

Johnson grass spreads with side roots in the soil as big around as a pencil. It comes back over and over again after spraying it with herbicide, and I doubt there's anything that can crowd it out.
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 29, 2007
9:33 PM

Post #4031404

They are tough grasses all right. Down here they use rape seed to crowd out weeds. They use a lot of poisons, too though.
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

September 30, 2007
11:35 PM

Post #4034846

Ozark, my extension officer said to keep cutting the Johnson grass as low as you can - if it gets no leaves, it produces no energy to keep the *&*@#$^ root alive, and that's the best way of killing it that she knew of.

I have the same infestation, myself.
rutholive
Tonasket, WA
(Zone 5a)

October 3, 2007
3:07 PM

Post #4044357

I planted buckwheat on the first corn growing space in my garden about 6 weeks ago. It is in bloom now and I will have my fellow mow it today and leave it in place to decompose over winter. I have used buckwheat whenever I had space for it for many years. i used to till it in but now I don't till the soil very much, just dig my trench or whatever to plant seeds in the spring . That way I don't kill the very helpful worms, or dig out a toad. that method has worked pretty well for me now for several years. the rest of the corn bed has had the shreds from my own shredder spread about 2 " deep on the area. There is still some corn stalks standing with good ears. As soon as they are harvested the stalks will be cut down to ground level. My fellow takes the stalks home to feed his horses. Then the area will have more shreds spread over.

Donna
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

October 3, 2007
3:12 PM

Post #4044372

I love buckwheat. So do the bees. I sleep on a buckwheat pillow. I guess you don't get seed to make pillows from if you cut it and lay it down for mulch.
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

October 3, 2007
3:47 PM

Post #4044484

Donna, can I borrow your fellow? Mine is great with a computer but with gardening... mmm... not so much!
rutholive
Tonasket, WA
(Zone 5a)

October 4, 2007
2:49 PM

Post #4047882

The fellow who works for me drives 15 miles from their place to here and has worked for me when he has the time and I have the money for about 20 years now. With my angina problem, I would have to give up even more of my garden if I didn't have him to help. Pulling big weeds and carrying anything heavier than 10 lb. is my greatest problem now. You can borrow him but might be a bit of a drive from his place to yours.

Donna
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

October 4, 2007
3:24 PM

Post #4048015

That would be quite a drive. But he must be a real treasure if he knows to pull the weeds and not the plants.
rutholive
Tonasket, WA
(Zone 5a)

October 4, 2007
3:42 PM

Post #4048083

My biggest problem is keeping my labels in place. Charles is not real careful no matter how often I remind him to find the label before he pulls or cut something down. After all these years he pretty much knows the weed from the good plants.
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

October 4, 2007
9:06 PM

Post #4049236

Finding a guy you can depend on is a real prize, isn't it? I have a 'handyman' kind of guy here, luckily - if he can't do it, he knows who can.

But he had no idea what a hosta was, so I think I'll keep him working on other stuff, lol!
Ozark
Ozark, MO
(Zone 6a)

October 16, 2007
1:39 AM

Post #4087480

That buckwheat is great as a green manure crop - I'm impressed.

Here's my vegetable garden only 3 weeks after planting buckwheat. The buckwheat has buds and it's about to bloom already. We have at least another week of non-freezing weather in our forecast, so maybe it'll bloom before the big chill.

Question - should I till it in this fall after it freezes, or should I let it stand dead all winter and till it under in the spring? Are there any advantages or disadvantages to doing it either way? Thanks.

This message was edited Oct 15, 2007 8:41 PM

Thumbnail by Ozark
Click the image for an enlarged view.

Katye
Sammamish, WA
(Zone 7b)

October 16, 2007
3:06 AM

Post #4087833

Ozark - I usually till mine in, and then get another sprouting of seeds; you know - the lazy ones that didn't bother the first time around!
But we don't freeze here, so I don't know what the outcome would be for your zone.
sawpalm
Winston Salem, NC

August 14, 2011
9:22 AM

Post #8755744

Has anyone used sorghum sudan grass? We are getting ready to cut ours down. I would like to know if you have experience with it.
DoryDee
Dallas, TX
(Zone 8a)

August 16, 2011
4:20 AM

Post #8758982

To prepare for fall, would you remove pole beans, or turn them under?
Ozark
Ozark, MO
(Zone 6a)

August 16, 2011
8:30 AM

Post #8759393

To prepare for fall, would you remove pole beans, or turn them under?
-----------------------

Remove them, for sure.

Many things we grow carry fungus diseases over in the soil from season to season, and beans are among the worst about that. I not only remove the plants, but I make sure I pull the roots up and remove as much plant debris as possible. Bean plants don't go in the compost pile, either - they go in the burn pile. Same thing for cucumbers, melons, anything in the squash family, and tomatoes.

I till other plants under, the ones which (as far as I know) don't carry disease. Those include corn stalks and debris, anything in the cabbage family, okra, beet tops, etc. - most anything that's not a bean, a squash, or a tomato is OK to plow under.

pbyrley

pbyrley
Port St Lucie (+ Wk , FL
(Zone 9b)

August 21, 2011
2:02 PM

Post #8769158

Isn't sudan grass the stuff that is good for cattle feed and poisonous for horses?

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

August 22, 2011
4:37 PM

Post #8771687

I agree that organic matter, compost, and cover crops are great for improving clay. It really needs lots of organic matter, humus, call it what you will.

I believe that it also benefits from adding some long-lasting coarse stuff, to provide mechanical "structure" while the clay is mellowing enough to form clods and clumps and maintain open air spaces and good drainage pores.

Someone mentioned Turface, but isn't that expensive?

I really like shredded or chipped pine bark. Mulch can be cheap, but you might want to screen out the very biggest pieces and chip them down to 1/8 - 1/2" for maximum drainage benefit. It lasts much longer than peat, and is coarser than peat or coir - all good things. I think that all sizes of bark help some, especially long fibers, chips & shreds.

Bark "powder" mixes intimately with the clay and encourages some penetration of air into small clods, while larger bark pieces prop things up so that air and water have a chance to perk between clods (unless the clay is still so plastic and goopy that it just squeezes into all the gaps).

You really do need "enough" OM for soil to work at all, but while that's marginal, I think that grit & bark help, too.

I also like very very coarse crushed rock or grit, like 2-3 mm or 1/8th inch. Sand is "rounder" than crushed rock so it doesn't help open up soil structure as much as crushed rock..

Many will say that adding coarse stuff doesn't help unless you can add ENOUGH of it that the gooey clay can't just ooze into all the gaps. They are probably right. You might need up to 40% coarse stuff to get much drainage benefit from that ALONE.

But it seems to me that AS you are improvng the OM content of the clay with cover crops and compost, say for the first 2-3 years, ALSO adding as much coarse structure as you can afford does help SOME with improving drainage and aeration.

I've had clay with insufficient OM revert to soupy pudding the second year (some of the compost was digested, and there just was never enough in the first place). Bark and grit kept it usable so I could grow in it while continuing to add OM.

Corey

pbyrley

pbyrley
Port St Lucie (+ Wk , FL
(Zone 9b)

August 23, 2011
8:30 AM

Post #8772746

Does anyone know about pH requirements for buckwheat? My backyard seems to be a sandy which I believe is just ground up rock. It's about 6" deep and then there is a layer of red clay. I had the sandy stuff soil tested by the state ag school people (sampled about 10 or 12 places) and it range from pH of 4.2 to 4.6 - pretty acid. They told me how many tons (or some big measure) of dolomite to add to the soil per acre to get to neutral pH or grow fescue - I forget. I don't think I can spread that much lime. with my lawn spreader.

I think the buckwheat would really improve the "sandy soil". It's all sloping so it tends to either run off or drain over the red clay bottom.
Indy
Alexandria, IN
(Zone 6a)

August 23, 2011
2:57 PM

Post #8773395

In a few days I am sowing forage radishes [Daikons] as a winter cover crop in an area that is cleared now. the radishes will finally winter kill and leave good and deep OG with nitrogen.
MaryMcP
Phoenix, AZ
(Zone 9b)

August 23, 2011
7:51 PM

Post #8773904

OG??
Indy
Alexandria, IN
(Zone 6a)

August 24, 2011
12:24 PM

Post #8774809

ogm rather...organic matter.
mauryhillfarm
Vashon, WA
(Zone 8b)

October 23, 2011
9:23 AM

Post #8860228

Help! I planted buckwheat as a cover crop this Summer and then went back to school in addition to working full time, so left everything in the garden to go to seed, Will all that buckwheat seed sprout again next year if left to fall to the earth or should I try to collect some of it to dry inside?
Ozark
Ozark, MO
(Zone 6a)

October 23, 2011
11:03 AM

Post #8860317

mauryhillfarm - I've always tilled my buckwheat under while it's in bloom to prevent it forming seeds. I'm sure you'll be seeing a bunch of buckwheat come up in the spring, now that it's gone to seed. That shouldn't be a problem - just let the buckwheat seedlings sprout then till them under before planting your garden.

So far as saving buckwheat seeds, I wouldn't bother. $3.85 worth of seeds from the farm supply is enough to sow my whole 35' x 50' garden.
sawpalm
Winston Salem, NC

October 30, 2011
3:44 PM

Post #8869537

We planted field peas and green beans in our garden to harvest and also to plow under as a cover crop. I have read the message here which says you should remove all the beans lest they harbor disease. Another message says to plow them under. What do you all recommnd and why?
Indy
Alexandria, IN
(Zone 6a)

October 31, 2011
2:59 PM

Post #8870851

I have a luscious cover crop of tillage radishes [daikons] They make a lot of organic matter both in the soil and above. They winter kill in the north.
http://www.tillageradish.com/history.php

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

October 31, 2011
3:45 PM

Post #8870900

My Daikons put up a lot of foliage, flowers and seeds, but the roots were very disapointing: 1.5" x 3/4" radish plus a skinny tail. I expected them to be 10 times as long and twice as thick.

That's despite planting them in the my second-most amended, least-heavy clay raised bed!

They were reccomended to me as a way to "break up heavy clay soil". Instead, they didn't even pentrate heavily-amended soil!

Corey
Indy
Alexandria, IN
(Zone 6a)

October 31, 2011
4:05 PM

Post #8870935

Corey, What kind of daikons did you sow?

I have one that is nearly 4 inches in diameter. It is that large for 6 inches above the ground and likely that for a foot in the ground plus the taproot on down.

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

October 31, 2011
4:55 PM

Post #8871010

Hazzard's for 2011
Radish R8639
Raphanus sativus
Daikon Minowase
Pure white 16" x 3" < - - - - - ten times longer and 4 times times thicker than I got.
sow summer or fall, 52 days

The closest I see in DG Plant Files is 'Mino Early Improved',
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/105989/

Kitazawa Seeds has #103 "Minowase Summer Cross Hybrid", distinct from their #091 "Mino Early". They say each veriety would form roots 10-16" long.

I'm assuming that the problem is that even the soil I have improved the most is still heavier than what most people think of as "heavy clay soil". But several people suggested Daikon raidishes for "busting" or "drilling" "heavy clay".

And yet, Bok Choy, some other brassicas, and flowers have grown in it - very vigorously, last year and fairly vigorously this year. Snow Peas grew very vigorously in it this year, after they got past the very slow, cold spring.

From the tall stalks and profuse flowers, I thought they were doing wonderfully, until I pulled a few.

Maybe "profuse flowers and seeds but no roots" are radish's version of "bolting", but I never heard of radishes bolting. Do they need heat to be happy? My summers are cool, especially this last summer!


I might have guessed that the roots were drowning, and yet the "skinny tail" went down quite deep and the soil was fairly loose (by my yard's standards).

Also, these were planted within 8" of the 16" tall wall of a raised bed - loosely fitting concrete pavers stood on end, so both drainage and aeration were assured.

Maybe Dailkon needed lots more compost, and this bed hasn't had much compost added in a year.

I might have thought that skimpy roots meant OVER-fertilization, where the plant didn't NEED any more roots to get mineral nutrients ... but this bed has had even less fertilizer added than it has compost, like 1 light sprinkle in early spring. .

Pathetic!

BTW - my Bok Choy in this bed was much less vigorous this year than last year, and bolted MUCH sooner than last year, until I started one batch of Bok Choy in mid-summer. Too cold?

Corey
Indy
Alexandria, IN
(Zone 6a)

November 1, 2011
8:54 AM

Post #8871787

Corey,

It could be the timing for a good root cover/manure crop. I planted at the end of August and some more in early September. These will not go to seed here at that time of year, but will winter kill. If yours went to seed, they were planted too early in the season for maximum root development.
Mine were raphanus sativus var. niger from Fedco Seed and were called forage radishes [daikon].

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

November 1, 2011
10:21 AM

Post #8871896

>> too early in the season for maximum root development.

That would make a lot of sense. This summer was so cool that most of it was "too early" for anything that needs warmth.

I'll try again next year, with several smaller sowings, later in the summer.

Corey
Indy
Alexandria, IN
(Zone 6a)

November 1, 2011
11:58 AM

Post #8872017

Corey, Since you are listed as zone 8a, it could get tricky as yours might not winter kill.

RickCorey_WA

RickCorey_WA
Everett, WA
(Zone 8a)

November 1, 2011
12:11 PM

Post #8872035

Thanks, but my spaces are small enough that hand-weeding is very practical.

Indeed, in the heavy-clay areas I'd like to amend on the cheap, I should BE so lucky as to have something overwinter and come back!

Corey

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