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Sustainable Alternatives: how to reuse a satellite dish

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taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 1, 2007
1:28 PM

Post #4146436

what do i do with all of these darn satellite dishes.
We had to upgrade our old satellite dish, but it cost to much to do that, so we got a new ISP, now we have to move ! and they wont take the brandnew one to the other location ? why , i have no idea.
So i m stuck iwth 3 of these things. The new owner of our house doesn't want ours . SHe is getting her own ISP and wont need ours. Great... not
So any ideas on what to do with these things ?
I was thinking of making junk art with them. Like a mushroom. Paint it and put it upside down to look like a mushroom
or a roost for our chickens.
any other ideas are greatly appreciated
sue
MitchF
Lindsay, OK
(Zone 7a)

November 1, 2007
6:58 PM

Post #4147590

What about a planter for annuals? I have seen them used for sedum dishes too...

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 1, 2007
9:50 PM

Post #4148043

yes that is a good idea.
sue
MitchF
Lindsay, OK
(Zone 7a)

November 1, 2007
9:54 PM

Post #4148064

I am not sure how cold the soil would get for you there but here they work great - infact I keep trying to find a big one to work with here.
snapple45
Holland, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 1, 2007
10:01 PM

Post #4148084

I saw two stacked one above the other and used as a cascading fountain with a third one at the bottom on/in the ground as a bird bath. They used a small recirculating pump hidden in a plastic pail buried under the bottom dish. The bottom dish had a couple of tiny holes drilled in it to let the water continue to flow. Once it was algae covered it was really attractive. Lots of birds and squirrels drink from it. They drain it, pull the pump, and put a garbage bag over it for the winter. Not much work or expense involved.
garden_mermaid
San Francisco Bay Ar, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 2, 2007
12:14 AM

Post #4148441

Is it strong enough to use as a snow saucer? You could put rope handles on it and then go sledding in it.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 2, 2007
12:58 AM

Post #4148632

snapple that sounds realy cool
hmmm a snow dish. ? huh could work. I bet my 4 yr olds could make a sled out of it
I wonder if i could attach lights and make a christmas deco out of it. If i have three of them , I could do a snowman statue .
ooh ideas are comming in and they are all great ! giving me inspirations thanks
sue
CajuninKy
Biggs, KY
(Zone 6a)

November 2, 2007
3:14 AM

Post #4149108

You must be talking about the small ones?
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

November 2, 2007
2:33 PM

Post #4150105

I saw one of the large ones used as a roof to a pergola - certainly a piece of garden art is quite possible with it.

Do you mean like the ones that Dish Network currently use? Or one of the big old ones?
roybird
Santa Fe, NM

November 3, 2007
1:26 AM

Post #4152168

L.O.L. Go for the snowman sculpture! I love all these ideas.
podster
Deep East Texas, TX
(Zone 8a)

November 3, 2007
1:54 AM

Post #4152267

A larger one could make a shallow water garden... Have also seen two here that were used as roofs for gazebos.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 3, 2007
2:00 AM

Post #4152288

yes the small ones
we have a neighbor down the road iwth the humungous one, SHe painted it iwth a pretty mural. Im not that artistic lol
I could make a big clam shell lol :)
sue
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 18, 2007
2:15 AM

Post #4205100

I have a giant one - I have lots of ideas, but not a clue how to do it. There must be a truckload of concrete under it and the pole is as big as my calf (on my leg)...can you see it?

Thumbnail by 4paws
Click the image for an enlarged view.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 18, 2007
4:28 AM

Post #4205562

hmmm that is a tough one 4paws
How do you get it out of the ground
Well how about christmas lights ? :) or Hannukah candles :)
plant a vine around it ?
wow it is big
oh big bunny ears for easter iwth big whiskers
sue
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 18, 2007
4:31 AM

Post #4205570

It's a long way from electricity. I've pulled most of the cable to it in the last three years, but still run into parts of it.

Happens to be in line with what used to be the river path gate. It's just low enough to hit me in the head-don't know why I don't see it. :-)

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 18, 2007
4:38 AM

Post #4205587

paint it neon orange . Maybe that will help you see it lol :)
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 18, 2007
4:51 AM

Post #4205614

oh yuck! I have a different path now.
This is the full view from the house - neon orange! lol It's almost dark enough to disappear.

Thumbnail by 4paws
Click the image for an enlarged view.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 18, 2007
2:55 PM

Post #4206464

Hey that is really pretty 4paws.
so have you decided on what to do with it.
the sattalite dish
sue
CajuninKy
Biggs, KY
(Zone 6a)

November 18, 2007
3:03 PM

Post #4206489

Those big ones can be used for duck ponds, roofs over small animal houses such as goats, roofs over round chicken pens, roofs over round hay bales, ect.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 18, 2007
3:15 PM

Post #4206530

hey thats an idea CajuninKy
how would you make a pond ? put the plastic over then fill . I assume. :) lol just answered my own question lol :)
sue
CajuninKy
Biggs, KY
(Zone 6a)

November 18, 2007
3:19 PM

Post #4206544

Actually, if it is one of the solid fiberglass jobs, you just fill the couple of holes with silicone. No liner needed. I believe the folks I saw who did it even put in a plumbing kit in a larger hole in the center and made a pipe for draining the pond for cleaning.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 18, 2007
3:36 PM

Post #4206594

wow cool
i guess i just assumed ( bad thing to do) that plugging the holes would be hard
hmmmm must seek out these things for more projects
sue
CajuninKy
Biggs, KY
(Zone 6a)

November 18, 2007
3:40 PM

Post #4206607

I've never looked closely at the small dishes but mayhap some of you would know. Is there enough "dish" in them that they could be used for tiers in a cascade into a large pond or container such as a barrel?
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 18, 2007
5:02 PM

Post #4206864

Looking at the little one left by DirectTV, I would guess yes, it's deep enough for a tier.

The one in the field is solid metal: SOLID. It doesn't move. I thought about turning it upside down to use for a roof, but I haven't the muscle power. At least six people have expressed their desire to own it, but no one has taken it in 3 years. :-) Otherwise, the potential is unlimited, in my opinion, but then, I see potential in nearly everything.

I should put it on craigslist, but being out here slows down potential takers of any considerably.
:-)

snapple45
Holland, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 19, 2007
12:46 AM

Post #4208079

4paws - What you need is a "sawzall", 2 guys and a pickup truck. The scrap metal value out of that thing could finance Christmas!

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 19, 2007
1:10 AM

Post #4208167

snapple could be right on that one :) never thaought of that.
good call snapple
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 19, 2007
1:14 AM

Post #4208179

I have a truck and a sawzall, though the extension cord would have to be mighty long...200'. I've actually considered that, too, but haven't run into the muscle who wants to do it. I think the distance to wherever it gets scrapped has something to do with the reluctance, as well. I'm situated somewhat remotely.

Come and get it if you want it...lol!
podster
Deep East Texas, TX
(Zone 8a)

November 19, 2007
4:15 AM

Post #4208719

Might look into an inverter to run the sawzall off your truck battery ~ lol
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 19, 2007
4:23 AM

Post #4208749

still lacking muscle...come on up! lol I've got all sorts of treasure here, but no muscle.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 19, 2007
5:11 PM

Post #4210225

hmmm I got mucscle, just dont have gas money lol :)
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 19, 2007
11:17 PM

Post #4211384

No kidding - especially at $3.40/gallon!

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 20, 2007
2:38 AM

Post #4212221

Ha i pay 3;49 a gallon i got me a diesel truck . Just paid $90 to fill it yikes !!!!
The only reason i have a truck is for work and we have a farm lol :) Maybe i should start thinking horse and buggy. ?
sue
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 20, 2007
4:52 AM

Post #4212651

That's about what it is on the coast - Hoopa is some of the cheapest gas.I drive a truck as well, though I would like to have a little car for when I don't need all that power and utility, which is most of the time.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 20, 2007
11:25 PM

Post #4215093

Where is Hoopa ?
I m from Northern CA , Palo Atlo.
I have a new idea for my satellite dishes
I am going to take the small ones and paint faces on them or suns. Then hang them on my trees out in our woods .
sue

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 20, 2007
11:27 PM

Post #4215096

OHOHOHOOOOO
had another idea
blow up a pic of my kids and deco pouge clear glue and use as a wall hanging.
sue
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 21, 2007
4:22 AM

Post #4216048

taynors, to getto Hoopa from Palo Alto it is a 350-450 mile drive north and then inland east about an hours drive. When 4-Paws said she is in a rather remote area she was not exagerating in the least!
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 21, 2007
6:45 AM

Post #4216251

:-)
And you would know, Zanymuse, being one of my closest DG neighbors. I got my birkenstocks fixed in Fortuna.
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 21, 2007
7:39 AM

Post #4216278

LOL and I'm a ways away but we do drive out your way during the summer when we want to experience heat for a few hours. We usually take the scenic route out past Lady Bird Johnson and over the fire road. Takes hours and I enjoy it.

You must have gone to Strehls? They do great work.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 21, 2007
4:06 PM

Post #4217261

I have a pair of Birks. Do they do out of state fixings :) ? lol
AAAhhh your a "out in the boonies person."
We live far out in the country, well what i consider far out . 15 miles to the nearest store hahaha
I think i have gone as far as Tahoe. I remember that lake .
Zany i guess not much sun in Fortuna.
Your areas sound like a beutiful place's to live.
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 21, 2007
5:44 PM

Post #4217585

They are very lovely.
Yep, that's the store, Zany. I bet you can find a repair shop closer, Taynors.

If you have an inclination to drive out this way, I'd love to have you adopt plants from my garden. I'm probably going to be leaving here by early summer and I have a lot in pots and in the ground that will need new homes. I'll only leave perennials that don't need much water and that will be easy for whoever follows to care for right from the start. I have a rather haphazard gardening manner, so it would be hard for anyone to figure out what I've got on their own anyway.

If you shop in Eureka or Arcata, I could meet you there, too, with plants. :-)
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 21, 2007
6:08 PM

Post #4217660

That is a very generous offer and if possible I'll take you up on it. I'll let you know when we are going out that way again. The problem is that I can't use anything that gets too large because my whole garden area is only 15' X 25' and already includes a small pond, 3 butterfly bushes I try to keep tall and narrow, and a future planting bed that is currently acting as a huge compost bin! LOL I am trying to squeeze all I can into this little apartment garden of mine.

I lost track of your move cause the thread is too fast for me. Did you decide where you are going?
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 21, 2007
6:58 PM

Post #4217772

Well, at this point I think I'm heading to North Carolina, however I continue to harbor hope of not having to go so far...I'm teaching at Burnt Ranch for the rest of the year, but beyond that, I don't know exactly what's going on.

I am reducing and sending things to new homes, and sometimes "foster homes" with the idea that sometime "down the road" I'll get divisions or offspring for wherever I am. I do tend to grow plants that get really big eventually. I'll look at your wish list. :-)
MitchF
Lindsay, OK
(Zone 7a)

November 21, 2007
7:19 PM

Post #4217833

4paws I have been doing the same thing - will be moving to OKC in the Spring and filled my MILs beds there for cuttings latter and gave the rest away local. Not fun - not fun at all...
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 22, 2007
4:33 AM

Post #4219359

You're moving, too? Where is OKC?
The moving is not going to be fun, nor the sorting, but in a way...I like giving away to the right place. The worst is thinking about leaving the land...my worms...the soil...*sigh*

Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 22, 2007
4:57 AM

Post #4219405

Aw Paws, those poor worms! I sure hope they get themselves another good caretaker.
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 22, 2007
5:17 AM

Post #4219439

Oh, the trees take good care of them...that's why they're so happy here, from all the leaf litter.
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 22, 2007
5:21 AM

Post #4219448

Well where ever you go I wish for you the best piece of garden land and the happiest worms in the land!
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 22, 2007
3:42 PM

Post #4220081

:-) Thank you.
MitchF
Lindsay, OK
(Zone 7a)

November 22, 2007
7:46 PM

Post #4220489

Oklahoma City - OKC... sorry learning the local short hand already..
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 22, 2007
10:42 PM

Post #4220714

Leaving behind a garden is like abandoning a child or losing a beloved pet for me. It hurts! I know that sounds pathetic but when I had to do it that is how I felt and I still find myself thinking about it and wishing I could have brought it all with me!
MitchF
Lindsay, OK
(Zone 7a)

November 22, 2007
11:18 PM

Post #4220768

I did get to meet new friends.. then I posted on Freecycle and Craiglist. Worst mistake of my life - they were picky, wanted me to dig everything out myself, pot and tell them how to care for it...

and a few of them also were theives...

never again.
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 23, 2007
2:44 PM

Post #4221993

That's good information, Mitch. I've posted on craigslist and in general, haven't been all that successful, partly because of my distance. I did sell two doghouses to someone in town, but I delivered them. He gave me the cash and I drove off, not even counting it, but discovered later that it was $15 short.

I'm pretty lousy at handling money. It's my own fault for not counting it on the spot.
MitchF
Lindsay, OK
(Zone 7a)

November 23, 2007
11:15 PM

Post #4223341

For myself - I will post on here and never ever on Craigs list again... just not worth it. If someone really wanted something and would as we would give it to them in a heart beat - just the type of people weare - but dont steal.
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 23, 2007
11:18 PM

Post #4223354

My Grammy used to say "If your gonna steal from me steal a kiss"
MitchF
Lindsay, OK
(Zone 7a)

November 23, 2007
11:21 PM

Post #4223366

yep.. I heard that one a lot over here too...

I can take a lot but not a theif...
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 24, 2007
5:08 AM

Post #4224218

Yep, I understand.
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

November 24, 2007
5:53 PM

Post #4225317

Leaving my plants in Phoenix was about the toughest parts of my move to Tennessee. Compared to that, all else was nearly a breeze. I still whine about it, quietly, to myself. But succlents like the ones I had just don't do too well in this wet of an environment. And it would have doubled our moving costs to bring them, so...

... but those 50 gallon, mottled blue ceramic pots I gave away... ahhh! I will *never* move again, I'll burn the place to the ground, first!
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 24, 2007
6:02 PM

Post #4225342

I know how you feel! It broke my heart to leave 99% of my plants behind when we moved into town. And to compound the pain we drove back out later to drive by and see what the new owners had done with the garden only to see they had taken a bulldozer to the whole thing and put in cement and rock! The neighbor said they didn't even bother to save a single rose bush, plant or bulb of any kind. Just dozed them into a pile and destroyed every single plant.

I actually cried at seeing it and still get mad thinking about it.
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

November 24, 2007
8:56 PM

Post #4225694

OMG. I can only imagine how awful that must've been.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 25, 2007
12:27 AM

Post #4226177

oh zany how awful
I know when we moved in our house . The lady was a master gardener. Her landscape was pretty but . I couldn't keep up and all her trees were in straight rows !! I had to downsize. I did give away alot to DGers and neighbors . I gave them to good homes
Pagancat you can grow plants in AZ ?? !! lol :) who knew. When yo mean plants you mean cactus right ? lol :)
I lived in AZ for 5 yrs
sue
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

November 25, 2007
1:46 AM

Post #4226383

Ha - I didn't say it was easy, but...

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 25, 2007
1:54 AM

Post #4226406

its a dry heat lololol :)
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

November 25, 2007
4:05 PM

Post #4227654

Yeah, but after it goes above 110, who cares? A blast furnace is dry, too...

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 25, 2007
4:37 PM

Post #4227762

I hated it when people would say that to me.
I always wanted to answer "DUUUUHHHH, ITS THE DESSERT"
I always thought it was the stupidist question LOL :)
your right once hit 110 who cares if its 110 melting is melting
I remember when it wa 122 my DD shoes started to melt on the sidewalk !! she had on those jellies way back when they where popular.
sue
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

November 25, 2007
5:18 PM

Post #4227892

LOL - I always wanted to actually *try* to fry an egg on the pavement, never got around to it...
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 25, 2007
7:21 PM

Post #4228284

Years ago when I lived in the desert we had a long heatwave that was miserable. I dropped an egg onto the sidewalk and it cooked to a hard center in less than 3 minutes. I don't recommend it though because it was impossible to clean up! I scraped all I could and the rest just had to wear off over time.
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

November 25, 2007
7:23 PM

Post #4228291

Heh - no Pam, eh?
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 25, 2007
7:23 PM

Post #4228294

lol no I didn't think of that ;~)
garden_mermaid
San Francisco Bay Ar, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 25, 2007
7:24 PM

Post #4228296

Pavement? Try the hood of the car...on one of those days when you need potholders to open the car door and need to remember to leave the windows cracked at the top so they don't break from the expanding air pressure.

Guess I'm just not succulent enough to handle that type of climate. I feel dessicated just driving from the rental car lot to the office I'm visiting. Wouldn't it make more sense for Hertz to paint the tarmac white with black parking stripes to keep the cars cooler?
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 25, 2007
7:28 PM

Post #4228313

Hmmm, wonder what that would do to the finish on the car?
[quote]I'm just not succulent enough [/quote] Great line!
garden_mermaid
San Francisco Bay Ar, CA
(Zone 9b)

November 25, 2007
7:45 PM

Post #4228348

Hee hee! How many desert mermaids have you seen? If the rivers don't flow all year long, we're toast (literally)!

Maybe PAM or an olive oil spritzer should be a standard glove compartment item in such hot climates? That would probably save the finish if one felt the need to fry eggs by the side of the road.
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

November 25, 2007
11:06 PM

Post #4228975

Or on your forehead, for that matter... I can't say I miss it one bit.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 26, 2007
1:43 AM

Post #4229449

I don't miss the desert either
Dry heat , you can have it. yuck.
Then again i live in Ohio and it is quiet humid. that is a yuck too. can't win ,can i lol :)
just go get some reynolds wrap aluminum foil and fry them eggs up oh get the stick free foil.
Sunnyvale has good weather. I am from Palo Alto . SHhhhh don't tell anyone.
YOu can't put anything in your glove box in Az it will EXPLODE !!! HAHAHAH learned that the hard way ! :)
I do miss the food in AZ. but not the traffic.
sue
podster
Deep East Texas, TX
(Zone 8a)

November 26, 2007
2:34 AM

Post #4229622

We lived in "the AZ valley" in the early 70s and learned to keep towels draped over all things metal in the vehicle. One coworker had neglected to vent her car and the windshield was neatly laid out on the hood. OTH, I drove a VW with no a/c. It wasn't all that grim. Vent windows did serve a purpose!

What I couldn't get over was the monsoon season. Photos of us standing knee deep in water on the patio! Once a year the total annual rainfall came down in a few hours...
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

November 26, 2007
5:09 PM

Post #4231289

Mmm - but the nights were much cooler in the 70's, Pod - everything there has heated up and just doesn't cool like it used to. I never had a/c in a vehicle in my life - even in Tucson - but I broke down and got one installed in my little truck when I moved to Phx. I was working in an office at the time and just couldn't handle sweating like I had been working out before I even got to work in the morning. No exaggeration.
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

November 27, 2007
4:24 AM

Post #4233706

I had to give up my aquarium in the desert - didn't want to pay for air conditioning to keep the fish from boiling! I rented a place with lots of windows - I love light - and within a couple of weeks, put insulation over them. I couldn't believe the heat that still radiated from those windows! That was in Bullhead City.

I very much like the desert, but probably not to live there again - especially after experiencing the dirt I have here and had in Wisconsin before here. It's a bit addicting.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 27, 2007
2:55 PM

Post #4234808

Bullhead city that is hot. almost as hot as Yucca ? i think that is the town i m thinking of in Az ?
boiling fish hahaha. i m sorry but it sounds funny.
Solar heating is the way to go in AZ.
We lived in Utah , not hot but your alot closer to the sun at the altitude level 8,200 . So even when it was 50 it felt like 65 and you could still get a sunburn at 40 degrees HA.
:)
sue
Pagancat
(Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN
(Zone 6b)

November 28, 2007
1:44 AM

Post #4237326

Yuma. Yuk.

Ugh, bullhead... remember a gal on the "other" forum who wanted geraniums there in the summer... heh...

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

November 28, 2007
9:33 PM

Post #4240191

thats it Yuma
ha Yucca is in CA i think hahaha
Ok that would have been interesting ! ? geraniums in AZ . Maybe by the term drought tollerant she thought that ment Desert tolerant lol ol :) i know i m bad.
Yuma get what 362 days of sun yrly the other two are rain haha
sue
4paws
Citra, FL
(Zone 9a)

December 2, 2007
7:52 PM

Post #4254129

BHC was hot; 123 degrees in the car - I kept my garage clear for the car and never forgot to put up the shade in the windshield, otherwise my skin would fry on the steering wheel.

I liked the sun and the Colorado River. I had a nice spot that I went to with the dogs that was usually free of any other folks, other than boats going by. The streets in Bullhead are sloped, some really dramatically, so that when the rain does happen, it can be diverted safely, because the clouds open up and the earth can't soak it in fast enough.

taynors

taynors
Urbana, OH
(Zone 5b)

December 2, 2007
9:01 PM

Post #4254445

Colorado is pretty, skin melting yah that is pretty much the state logo
sue

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Welcome to the sustainable alternatives discussion forum! dave 136 May 17, 2012 9:36 PM
Do you have green roofs in your city? frostweed 45 Apr 26, 2011 9:19 AM
First post! Home made organic fertilizer renwings 76 Mar 22, 2012 1:21 PM
Permaculture? darius 234 Mar 22, 2008 11:13 PM
Anyone use rainwater or grey water? spot8907 151 Jul 22, 2013 5:23 AM


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