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We received three emails this morning calling for us to create a new auctioning place based on the Dave's Garden system. I'd like some feedback from the sellers out there who are petitioning us here at DG to create this. Please discuss your ideas in this forum and let's see where this goes.
...oh wait...only thing that might get weird is the fact that, because this is a community, people might be reluctant to give neg. feedback to an active member. I personally have had at least one occasion pop up where I had a really bad experience with a vendor and I would promptly have given a negative review in Garden Watchdog...but it was an active DG member, and that would have been awkward. So I didn't. I 've heard similar situations from other folks. Just a thought
but that's from a buyer's perspective :) And I still love to buy from decent vendors...
I hope this becomes a reality.I would love to move Country Garden's Ebay sales to Dave's.I believe it would be a better sales platform as well as keeping everything in the family.Possibly make DG membership a requirement for sellers but not for buyers.
I'm ALL for it. And I believe anyone who belongs to a plant society, horticultural discussion forum, has a favorite plant vendor, or a gardening buddy should inform them of this forum, offer them a link and instruct them to pass it on.
Let's do it people!
I would love to add Arghya Gardens in total to Dave's.
I was in the process of writing a letter to Dave's about this very subject. Now I will just post here.
I too would love to add Seed Sprout Nursery's eBay sales to an auction for garden related items on Dave's. There is a need for it now more than ever. Almost every gardener knows about Dave's Garden and who doesn't know eBay? Dave's has always been a pleasant place to visit and to the best of my knowledge all members are treated fairly.
As a buyer,...I too think it's a great idea! The chance of an opportunity to sell such items on DG via such an auction is very interesting to me.
I'm not currently a seller of plant - related items but I have considered it.
Since I have tried/still try to buy related items on Ebay,...it seems more appealing to have a similar venue right here at DG.
I think it would be a great idea if there were a way to hide the person's actual garden web identity when bidding and giving feedback. This would help to keep people's feelings from being hurt via being outbid by another member or having thier gw rep ruined by neg feedback etc. I don't personally have a problem with it but I *know* these issues will probably come up once it got going. This would also protect people's actual identity which is listed under the address exchange (which is linked to the GW IDs).
Other than that it would prob be good revenue for the site and great all around since it brings plant buyers and sellers together.
Im new here but one reason i joined is that it seems like a big family. I think an auction would take some of the "kindness" out of daves. I think if you want to sell there is the classified or Ebay. If people start selling i think the seed swaps and plant trading would start to decrease just for the fact that auctions are contajus. I have and do sell on ebay. Just my opinion i dont like the idea of selling to my family and i would have a problem with leaving anyone neg feedback. I there is a system there needs to be feed back to warn of problem buyer/sellers or there will lots of new members trying to take advantage of the "i screw you and you cant tell" way of selling.
Isn't there a feedback system in place already,... that addresses interactions between two DG members (trades)...and interaction between a DG member & an outside vendor ? How could it be much different ? I mean,...the purpose of such feedback is, at least, two-fold.
1st-to alert DGers of the potential of a problem...and 2nd, to hold the
vendor or DGer accountable for their actions
The only problem I could see is the failure by anyone,... to be honest/factual about any transaction. The feedback system on Ebay is generally suseptible to that possiblity...so the ability to "respond" and tell/explain the other side of the story is in place.
Gordo, that is what I was thinking. That would eliminate any problems in breaking up the family like atmosphere.
Willis, The difference is when people are merrily trading or actually spending money..somehow *some* (not me LOL) people get real competitive with auctions and very angry when it comes to money being involved. Just having separate IDs would prevent any escalations..I think that is why ebay makes personal info unavailable to the general public. When you are buying something I think it is between you and the seller and not really anyone else's business who you are, where you live (where the merchandise might be etc.)
Since the trading of items or outright giving away of items would likely be between those of us who are not vendors...why not have the opportunity of obtaining a plant/seed etc via an auction offered by an "on DG site" vendor? As angel_tree_baby mentioned,...and like some auctions on Ebay have,...the identity of any bidder could remain
unknown...(DG identity or any other).
It sounds like a good idea. As long as it is in a separate forum, and the sellers specify right up front if they are willing to ship to other countries.
I find myself agreeing with Mike. I think if Dave's starts an auction area, it would detract from the friendly trading that goes on.
However, as an occasional seller on eBay, I think the fees they - and paypal - charge can be a bit high. IF Dave's has an auction area, would there be seller fees involved? (I know, too early to tell, but I had to put it out there)
I think there should be a buyer/seller alias. I also think there should be feedback . . . I count on that, to tell me that I'm either doing something right - or that I need to work on something. It's like spinach - feedback can make you stronger (if you choose to eat it!).
I would wonder how that might affect the forum chats. for example if someone was asking for a recommendation for a plant and someone recommended one and mentioned that they or someone else on the forum just happened to have one listed in the auction. It would seem very awkward to me. would the discussions degenerate to selling forums or remain as unbiased comments and suggestions?
I think it is a great idea, and one that I know Dave and his team can work out the details where everyone is 'safe' from repercussions and 'infecting' family relations here on DG. My main thought that comes to mind right now is that I would hope that there would be some rule on the amount charged on shipping. eBay is known to have many people that gouge so hard on their shipping charges.
MY NEWBIE 2 CENTS,
I do think it is an interesting idea. But I am concerned about the trading and sharing that happens to be the best part of this community. It seems as soon as you add DOLLARS to the mix or the chance to make dollars to a happy community it ceases to stay the SAME!!
It happens in families and I fear it could happen here.
The "ON SITE" knowledge that every plant has a price changes the trade. It is no longer "a plant or two for what YOU'VE got "but "a BUCK or two" or "why trade when I can PROFIT" !!
It also takes the easy going, share your experience and pull up a chair flavor of Dave's to a place where after I buy from YOU I may never want to answer, or message you, or wish you a sad or happy comment because of some failure in the DEAL!
An Old saying " don't do business with family" maybe the right adage for this venture.
I think after this bit of analysis I am NOT for this here. I think it better played out in already available OTHER sites!
Julie
I think having a DG auction area is a WONDERFUL idea! Since the new changes at Ebay, I'd like to not sell/buy there anymore at all. Ebay is getting WAY too big for their britches, and needs a reality check.
I don't believe having auctions would detract from the trading that goes on at all. Considering the fact that as of now, anyone can sell anything, at anytime on Ebay, but there are still TONS of people trading, and giving away plants for postage. I don't think that would change.
There would *have* to be some kind of fees to cover the additional administrative costs. It would be a large undertaking. I wouldn't mind paying, as long as it was reasonable.
As far as there being any bad blood between buyers, and sellers, I think it would be just the opposite! I'd think that the two people knew each other, it would HELP keep everything on the up and up. Why would anyone want to screw over someone they knew? That's just NOT what plant people do.
Everyone must remember that Dave & Team strive hard to keep this a family oriented site and things wouldn't change because of this because it would not be allowed. I can see both sides, but I think that people here would work hard to make sure that their name stays 'clean' because they do care about this site.
Many of the qualities essential for a secure trading environment are already here at Dave's. The Watchdog is in place, and buyers would have the advantage of researching honest retailers from within their midst. Disagreements would be hashed out as they have always been.
As far as selling to family goes, I would rather know my family members are making safe, secure transactions among one another, rather than from unknown entities that might rip them off without conscience. The familial relationships here are a more compelling reason to deal honestly with friends and customers alike. That kind of motivation is missing on some of the major auction sites.
Auctioning at Dave's gives the shopper the advantage of research information for plant species and sellers, and it offers sellers the unheard of opportunity to listen to their customer' comments and criticism via the Watchdog and discussion forums.
With both a member ID and a seller's ID, identities would remain separate and distinct from discussion and selling.
The cost of placing items for auction, processing sales, payment, etc., can be worked out after the membership decides whether they wish a Hoticultural Hub to exist or not. Why prowl the web for what you need, when you can use one stop stopping to your advantage? You want rakes? We've got rakes. You want books? We've got books. Greenhouses? Plants? Pots? Soil? Special sales notifications? We've got them AND a place where you can inform your gardening pals if you were treated with respect or sent a box of mushy bulbs and given an argument.
I personally think that it could take away part of the reason I joined. I found the kind free offering of seeds for newbies. I found that plants that I had were desired by others going to th RU's. I found that I met lots of nice people at the RUs and came home with many plants.
I believe that trading would become more money biased. If you had a plant that would give off lots of new plants quickly and easily like for instance a brug, you would be inclined to "list" it instead of trade it.
If you met a newbie online, you would point him/her to the auctions to get started instead of the friendly offerings now made to newbies.
In a trade, you would be tempted to see what the "value" was in the auctions instead of just enjoying the yours for mine or yours for postage attitudes we have now.
I got brug cuttings for $1 from the classifieds here. At an auction, I probably couldn't have afforded them.
Everyone here had the same chance I did to check the classifieds and many others bought the cuttings.
The seller was obviously not out to "get rich". The buyers were obviously very happy to get the cuttings at such bargains.
At the RU's people don't take count of item for item and value for value. If we had an auction going it would be tempting to only trade for equal values or to save the "good" things for the auction.
The most fun on this site can be had at the RU events. The trading going on before an RU can be so much fun and no one keeps count, and everyone is happy about the trades given and recieved.
As far as Dave goes, there would be much more money in an auction than currently made now. It is a matter of what kind of site is desired. I came here for the friendliness and knowledge I found while browsing. I joined because I liked what I saw and wanted to see more.
On auction sites it is all about making money by the sellers and finding bargains or hard to find items by the buyers. Here we can find the bargains and the hard to find items often for the trade of something we have propagated ourselves at no additional cost.
I have often yearned for something like this. Like the Lily Auction, but with a wider variety of garden plants and items. I actaully think to make it work, it needs to be bigger than just Daves or the Daves community. If someone is going to leave ebay to sell on it, they want a wide range of customers I would think, you should not have to have signed up and paid to join Daves to shop the auction. I would imagine, If anyone has talked to Mike Longo at the LA, Im sure he would have some input. Or maybe its a little on his turf, I dont know...certainly it is with daylilies.
If anyone interested in buying on the auction site has to:
1. pay a small fee to register and receive a purchasing number (that should take care of our identities). Also maybe Dave could set up a login for that forum using our registration number.
2. The only place for complaints or recommendations would be on that forum which a registration number or login is required.
3. Make it a rule that auctions or purchases can not be discussed in any manner, for any reason,(good reviews or bad) on any forum, that should take care of inner family gossip or problems. If the rule is broken, the party or parties involved would lose their registration number or login number.
I think it would be great to be able to bid on items and save money.
And of course, if you don't want to participate, then you continue on with Daves as usual.
While I was typing Dave posted the fact that the whole idea would be put into a separate website.
I think I would like that idea quite well. As it would be not too different from how it is now with ebay's availability to us as well as the normal trading done here.
I quite selling on Ebay because they just got too greedy.
I would love to have a place to list some hatching eggs like I used to do on ebay. I would love to list some of my plants that no-one requests from my offerings of trades at RUs or on RRs.
Keeping it separate would be the key to keeping this site just what it is. I really like this site and was very happy to find it as it is now.
So, as a completely separate website, both buyers and sellers would be able to choose usernames other than their DG usernames, right? That might answer some of the concerns expressed above.
I like the idea, especially if it can be done with lower fees/overhead than eBay... but will you be willing to undertake the conflict resolution stuff, or will that just be handled through feedback & rebuttal with a "buyer beware" approach? (My eBay experience is really limited, you can tell.)
You wouldn't be able to discuss "Dave's Auction" business (or whatever name it was given) on DG as a seller any more than you can now discuss your eBay or LA or other types of sales. But perhaps people (sellers especially) could, if they wished, list their auction names on their DG home page... that way, if I think somebody I "know" on DG might be selling daylily seeds, I'll know how to find them!
I'm getting the sense that many gardeners feel they are destined to be mistreated by merchants and they are simply out to make enormous profits. Many eBay sellers grow and sell just to keep their gardens producing. Their profits, for the most part, are invested BACK into their gardens with whatever is left over used to supplement their income. They buy from other gardeners as well. It is not so much a method to gain wealth, rather it is a way to become somewhat independent, network with gardeners around the world, preserve rare species, send their kids to college, whatever.
If you've been made to feel your complaints have been unheard among the large plant companies, you're more likely to find comfort and resolution where the overall motivation is to do whatever is civil to accomplish your overall goals. Small sellers do listen and try to make it right. They have more to lose than the fellow with 20,000 customers.
Generosity of spirit certainly will not dissolve among the membership. Trading and RUs will not disappear. Our hearts will not harden, because we sell plants in a responsible manner to people we wish to treat with respect and wish to come again and visit.
Here's another thing to consider.Many "plant related" sellers are leaving Ebay this month
and many of you depend on Ebay for your new varieties.Those of us who are sellers,and who leave Ebay,will have to hope you wander through our websites from time to time.
One other thing to consider.You don't usually find the "latest and greatest"for nothing.These come from the websites and from the auctions.I doubt that you would see much difference in the amount of trade for cuttings and seed.The four major players in
brug sales also trade cuttings and give away lots of free seed.
I really don't know if ebay's fees can be justified by their costs, but I really don't think so. I know they are very big and have a lot of employees. They went public with their stock several years ago and so now they are goverened somewhat by stockholders interests. I started out with them when they were only a few months old. I quit selling with them because it got to be difficult to make a profit anymore due to their high fees.
If you do an auction site Dave, you will have a greater start than ebay with all of your faithfuls here on this site. It is something that will get bigger than we can imagine if opened to the general public. People are always looking for places to list their items for sale at fair prices and for fair fees. There is no doubt that it would be a complete success.
Would you still be interested in spending the time it takes to run this site if you were making "BIG" bucks from a "better than ebay" auction site?
In fairness to you, I know you would make it a great site for all, I just hope you would be able to maintain both sites.
Pros -
- A natural site for it - we have vendors and buyers in the same place, all passionate about
the same things.
- I think it would be good for the vendors and excellent for DG as long as it is done well
- This is a good time to do this! A lot of sellers are very dissatisfied with eBay right now, and would be happy to switch to something better.
Cons -
- Bad feelings among people who are bidding on the same item (I like the idea of hiding bidder names in this case)
- People feeling compelled to give good feedback for bad transactions because they are dealing with "friends" (I think anonymous bidders are also a good thing in this case)
- Anonymous bidders are hard for sellers, though. If a bidder has a bad buying history, the seller needs to know. I like the idea of assigning people numbers when they sign up to the site.
- If you don't do anonymous bidding, the addy exchange needs to come down. Even if there is a sister site, many many people are going to use their same ids on both sites (even though they know they shouldn't), and that becomes a safety issue.
Thoughts -
- There needs to be links somewhere on the site to what plants can/can't be shipped to
different states/countries. It is obviously not the site's responsibility to monitor all of the transactions to make
sure the wrong person didn't buy a plant, but the information needs to be there for people to find.
- Is any subscriber welcome to sell anything, or is that limited to registered/vetted vendors? Can they sell "anything", or does it need to be garden related? How broad is your definition of "garden-related"? (Is this going to be "dBay", or something limited to vendors who are already in the Garden Watchdog?)
In many ways, the eBay model is a good one. List your item, sell it, receive feedback (buyer and seller), block problem buyers, boot out irresponsible sellers, hash out problems in a sane and civil manner.
As far as listing goes, pay for your ad and photo at a flat rate then hand over a small percentage to cover the processing fee.
The model works. The problems arise when imbalances in protection for buyer, seller, or both during the resolution process are ignored, explained away without true resolution, or abused by being excised completely, because the enterprise is so enormous civility is overlooked for the bigger fish (profits) to fry.
The other problem is jacking up listing fees and commission without reason. The auction format is a non-tangible entity that cannot be transported here or there. Thus, no extra fees because the cost of fuel is in the region of Orion! I don't need to pay for seminars on how to sell, TV ads, catalogs of other sellers' wares, special services and someone else's ad below my counter. I just want to get my plant from point A to point B as smoothly and agreeably as possible.
The administrators here have shown themselves to be intelligent, thoughtful mediators with a view to satisfying the needs of the gardening community as a whole. I cannot see that either diminishing or disappearing unless the ills being suffered at eBay are contagious. If anything, it is a stern lesson regarding what NOT to do to individuals who have placed the meat on your table.
Traders will still be trading, and sellers will still be selling...except in a better place. I think Dave's got the right idea about setting up separately.
And, frankly, let's not forget that Dave's employers would love to make some money, and there's certainly nothing wrong with that. Seems like a good way to do it. I foresee the DG plant auction site becoming the horicultural eBay. I think it would also become an international site.
I`d like it if they could keep it really seperate and the auctions and anything to do with auctions wouldn`t become a every day topic of the regular discussions of gardening topics.
Ebay has a forum just for buyers and sellers and other topics of interest concerning ebay and ebay auctions so maybe a similar kind of seperate forum set up for Daves Garden auctions would be a suggestion.
Those who set it up/run it (Dave?) should have an internal system whereby they rate sellers and buyers based on valid and invalid criticisms lodged. For example, if a buyer unjustly negs a seller (based on a private inquiry by admin), that buyer would get an internal neg from the system. Eventually, that buyer would be banned by the system admin if they continued the unjust behavior. Similarly, a seller who repeatedly stiffed or otherwise shortchanged a buyer would get negged by the system admin and eventually might be banned from selling altogether.
We could start with the working model, then tweak it to suit the memberships needs.
Maybe we could call it "The Horticultural Hub at Dave's Garden".
If you can't find it here...it just ain't to be found! LOL!
I just want to add, if it is as user friendly as DG is now, I'd even consider selling. I have always wanted to on e-bay, but frankly, it scares the daylights out of me.
I appreciated this point:
"The model works. The problems arise when imbalances in protection for buyer, seller, or both..."
Ebay does balance anonymity with accountability. Because feedback goes both ways, and becuase it's a major site, people have a lot invested in one user name and are motivated to keep it clean. I've been a victim of shill bidding by vendors and appreciate that Ebay's system helped catch them. I'm worried that with multiple user names here that accountability goes away, and abuses like shill bidding, buyer non-payment, seller non-performance, etc., would skyrocket; then it's no longer a true auction site.
I would vote for keeping the same user name. I think it keeps both buyers & sellers honest when they can't hide so easily.
In order to draw the masses I think security is a priority; 'bid with confidence' has to really mean something.
I would really love to see one big horticultural auction site here. :^)
- Tom
Hello All,
I think a separate site IS absolutely the way to go "Dave's Garden Auctions" OR???
I read all of above and everyone has great input. So true that most of what is traded is everyday
garden material. No one is going to take a Dark Blue ( Like it would ever happen) day lilly and trade it!!
No it would be sold to the highest bidder. But to those who say "we are more considerate than those at eBay"
Most of the eBay sellers of plant material belong to DAVE'S! The fact that people don't want to replace a plant or blame the seller or customer rightly or wrongly for plant failure is just a fact of life. Whether it is our fault or theirs there always seems to be bad feelings. If WE believe WE are RIGHT and the other party is to blame no amount of repairing ever makes you TRUST as you once did.
And lets face it we trust each other with lots of facts of our lives and homes. Showing pictures of animals, kids, yards, professions and having a great deal of our guards down!
Add money, a bad deal, a bum rating, a negative experience and well ANY THING COULD AND WILL happen.
I say keep it separate. keep it anonymous and keep it far from the LOVELY GARDEN BENCH I call Dave's!!
Julie
I really like the idea of anonymous bidding (using numbers or whatnot so sellers can keep track, which I agree is necessary). Although I don't really want to bid against my buddies, it's not really fair to the seller either if I drop out of the bidding and they end up getting a lower price for the item... taking names out of the system takes care of some of that... although some people may figure out over time that #978527 = critterologist = Jill, it's not so immediately obvious.
I realize I could choose a userID for the auction site that's completely unlike my DG username and just keep it to myself... but I think Marylyn is right that a lot of people won't do that, and I'm just trying to prevent conflict if possible.
Or am I wrong in thinking that anonymity is either useful or a workable means of avoiding conflict spill-over into DG?
Tom, does accountability go away as long as an anonymous number always translates to the same username internally? I'm not suggesting that the system only know me by a number, just that it's a number and not my username that shows when I place a bid or maybe even when I leave feedback... the system knows who I am, and the seller knows who I am, but everybody else does not need to know who I am... ?
I think a lot of you have too many fears. I sell on eBay and my web site. I also belong to the Plant Scout here on Dave's Garden and several other organizations. I probably have only made 2 or 3 post on the forums since being a member of Dave's but I do read a lot and enjoy the photo's and plant files. Although I am a seller and own my own nursery business. I still attend round-ups. I still give away tons of seeds and plants each year. I am not out to make a killing...only a living. I know many people on Dave's Garden and many of you have been one of our customers for several years.
Feedback keeps a buyer and seller honest unless either or both parties are posting for spite or retaliation. I am sure if Dave and staff go ahead with this idea they will do it in the same spirit as Dave's Garden was created. I don't think it needs to be a part of this site but a sister company off site as Dave has mentioned in an above post. Ebay owns a lot more than their auction site and there is no reason Dave's can't branch out if so desired.
I admit I am the worst when I see something someone else has that I want. Then I initiate a trade...worse yet, i couldn't find the plant to buy for the person wishing for a certain plant (this morning).
The bottom line is: this trading among our friendly community wears thin in a hurry. It is very time consuming and have been thinking about not posting anymore on Dave's even though I love the people. It is my own fault that I get involved in too many trades taking the fun out of belonging to the site.
I would rather buy on Dave's. An auction or a 'buy me now' would be great and know that we would all benefit from such a site at great prices. (both as a buyer and as a seller)
Just my two cents worth but if we don't adopt such a plan, I feel I have to drop out as I can't seem to control my 'want' for plants and initiating trades which are just too expensive and time consuming for me. Remember that sometimes the person sending to me gets the short end of the stick and sometimes I get the short end of the stick.
I will be watching closely to see where this might lead for all of us. I hope it is a possibility. I paid on ebay not long ago 65.00 plus shipping for strep leaves which are great, but I assure I also have strep leaves that I would gladly sell for less than I paid on ebay.
****edited to say that it is hard work to post pictures for everyone to enjoy and I don't think that Dave's gardens is a place to "earn a living". To me buying and selling for less than ebay would benefit everyone who puts so much effort into Dave's site having these beautiful pictures to share all the time.(I hope no one is offended but i don't think if you don't post pictures all the time and trade that anyone can know how much fun and hard work it is)
I sell iris on ebay every year I believe I would be very interested in another place to auction them.Ebay fees are going to extreme right now what with listings and final value fees. Paypal fees are not as bad.
I think a new selling id is good, but also I believe a member should keep their original DG member joining date. That way you know how long someone has been a member here.
I completely agree with gordo's comments,everything I make selling is put right back in every year plus a whole lot more,lol
Another interesting prospect is inviting the best hundred of Dave's finest from the Watchdog to participate. Same listing fee and percentage across the board, regardless of company size.
Whether you sell three kinds of Brugmansia from Georgia or 10,000 bulbs from Chicago, the rate remains the same. You succeed or fail of your own merit. Merchants who have proven their way to the top of Dave's best hundred list should be available to the membership in a more expansive way as well. They've helped to butter everyone's bread as we've done theirs.
They've earned the right to sell to a targeted group as much as even the least member.
Tired of hunting for trusted bulb sellers? Find them here.
Can't find an Amorphophallus Titanium at a decent price? Check out The Hub.
Separate makes sense. Yet, aren't the discussion forums already doing business in disguise? We're recommending sellers and sources to each other all the time. Why? Because we care about our fellow gardeners, and we know where to send them. We're constantly rewarding business to sellers who struggle to please us. They, in turn answer us with good product. We need to unite in one place.
Think about this as well...How many varieties of Brugmansia are offered by the large plant nurseries? And how many new varieties are being produced there? Very few, indeed. It is the little guys who are producing the new double flowering varieties, the seed from them and the cuttings of them for your garden. The same, I venture to suggest, is true of many other plant species. And what of Passiflora! Where have the long unavailable species seed come from? The little guys. A few bucks here and there, and you've participated in preserving a species as well as financed a fellow plant lover's opportunity to climb around on the Organ Mountains in Brazil collecting P. kermesina seeds in the wild.
There's more to this than exchanging plant material for profit. It is also about a movement of people toward the preservation of what is best in their world. It is about retired guys doing mad science and producing Hibiscus to die for, or a middle aged lady making phantasmagoric quadruple Brugmansias right in her own backyard. It's about escape into the wonderful and forgiving world of nature for relief from anxiety and maybe, finding the company of a like minded friend. It's about retired ladies in Florida sharing precious pollens with a young and generous family man in Germany. The progeny of our collective curiosity will hopefully delight our fellow gardeners and perhaps, become the genetic foundations upon which those coming after us will build. If we are careful, considerate, diligent and wise, our work and plants that have come from our work will survive us.
I believe many of us have this view and despite the frailties of our humanity, it will continue to thrive in this venue or any other. If it predominates, if everyone hold that standard high, success is assured and this world is just that much more attended to and cared for. Generations to come will see something of YOUR face in the flowers they anticipate each Spring or leave to the care of THEIR children. Obstacles on the road to fulfillment of those possibilities can surely be removed if we work together.
Why does it have to be an auction? I'd much rather see something along the lines of the online stores that were available on the old garden.com of years ago (or the ebay stores.) Because of the high price of shipping these days, I would be more likely to shop in a store where I could buy several items and combine shipping than bid on a single item.
I would love to have a one stop shop for plants and other garden items vs having to scour the internet looking for a particular plant.
GREAT IDEA!!! I have lots of items I can auction or do some type of buy it now. It would bring alot more traffic to the site too. I am ready to sign up!
I appreciate Seed_Sprout's observations as well as Gordo's...as well as others
Many good recommendations and observations have been made
Overall,...the spirit of goodwill among the vast majority of the gardeners
has been the driving force that has made DG such a success. Why should that change? The point have been made that a number of sellers on Ebay are DG members...reputations among them AND among DG members are directed/determined by their interactions with others in a fair, honest manner...with goodwill OR their lack of doing so.
I tell ya,...every level/facet of society will contain the potential of wrong doing...it exists on Ebay...but I still buy things there,...it exists among the enormous list of Vendors...but I still buy plants,seeds,etc. from these sellers...(in both these cases,...obviously,..if something dishonest or undesirable occurs... "I won't be fooled again" (The Who) It exists at the work place,...yet, I still go to work there...it exists outside of this "sanctuary of normality & goodwill"...(t least for me)..at DG...and ,yes,... occasionally inside.
Maybe some of you will laugh and think me too idealistic...but I believe that the very nature of the majority of DG members...of friends and acquaintances I've made here at DG...their desire to share information, empathy and support...as well as the organic gifts...That's what makes DG what it is.
I'd like to point out:
Money is exchanged when seeds or plants or whatever is offered...for postage being paid by the recipient...the trust is there regardless of the amount agreed upon. I can't recall seeing a thread(s) that alerted all of us of the dangers of offering seeds or such for postage paid...and the person(s) being ripped off...maybe it has happened...
I doubt that it is often. My point is,...that money being involved in a transaction - whether as a DG member's offer as described,...or as a transaction on a DG-related auction site...does not have to mean rampant dishonest transactions need be expected...because of the very NATURE of the majority of DG members. We can & will police this "sanctuary"...to protect it...as will Dave & all the staff...for sure...that is,...if it becomes reality.
I just can't bring myself to believe that the "down-home/family"
goodwill among members,...the sharing, caring, trading of all kinds,etc. will diminish because an auction venue...(affiliated with DG) becomes a vehicle/supplier of what we want/need to enhance our hobby/passion/fascination ...however you choose to describe what brought you here to begin with.
I believe there will be a way to protect all of us...to make it work.
I whole heartedly agree with Gordo's posts (especially the last 3-4 before this post) My 4 cents worth
I have lots of plants that folks want that I would like to sell to help out my project. I personally do not like the idea of an auction on DG.
I think like a few have mentioned that feelings are gonna get hurt. Folks using a different name is not going to help cuz as soon as transactions are completed folks have names and addys and even as much as everybody trys to keep on an even keel here on threads. , bad words and gossip do go on behind the lines.
There are also alot of folks that don't know how to take care of a plant or what to expect and I have seen some really good folks have their reputations and plants trashed just because of somebody thinking they was getting a bandbox plant and not one grown from a home gardener. Lots of folks have different ideas of what they expect and can be very vocal when it doesn't go there way unfortunately.
I have things and as soon as ready that I will be posting on the classified. I have noticed lately that it getting a bit busier and some new folks posting things. I think the classified is a good idea. What I would like to se e possible is the classified expanded.
Have the classified section where folks can pay their five bucks for the two weeks advertisiment lie now. For those of us that small businesses or organizations trying to get going, have off the classified a store place where folks can rent spots and post their items and prices they have. Have a link from off the classified for those that have little stores from off the classified.
Have those stores for only folks selling plants and garden things, all other stuff have it stay on the classified. For the little stores have like on the co-op that it a buyer beware and no feedback. That way if there a problem at least it can be done privately though those folks private emails and not reflect negatively on DG and the community atmosphere here.
If business want feedback let them put themselves on the big list where they have web sites and such for folks to go to like now.
Have the little stores for those of us that have some stuf f to sell but don't have web sites .
I think the classifieds are enough, but if it is something you decide to go with, then I like that you would keep it as a separate site. Another thought might be that sellers use a screen name that is completely separate from this site. That would eliminate the feelings of posting negatives about active members. Am I correct in assuming that the rules here would stay the same, that sellers would not be able to promote their business on the threads?
Another point. Those of us who work hard producing websites are forbidden by eBay to list the address of our websites if they offer sale items. We are also forbidden to contact customers to inform them of sales, etc. I have written a few letters to eBay asking that the list of customers who have us bookmarked as "Favorite Sellers" might be made available to us so that we may at least contact them if we have items we think they may be interested in, or if we're running a special sale on items we have in multiple, whatever. All are verboten. We earned Favorite Seller status, but can't offer our customer any reward for it. If you do, you're bounced if found out.
Individuals who have toiled to create websites are restricted from posting a single seed on them simply because we sell on eBay. We are refused access to the greater world community of gardeners. Having paid the price of advertisement, I am still beholding.
If this kind of merchandising were the norm, any retail establishment that placed an ad on TV, the newspaper, radio or even a handbill would be disallowed business beyond the scope of the advertiser's ability to reach a limited audience. When you place merchandisers between yourself and what you think you can deliver, cause dependency, then fiddle with service and billing, you're not creating business opportunities. You're creating business prisoners, who grow when YOU say they grow...or not.
I want to keep my website and offer what I wish from it, and I also want to have a source where I can target as many people of like mind as myself. I don't like being punished for attempting to expand my creative energy beyond the scope of someone I've hired to do just that. eBay is not the world. It is part of a greater world where individuals are just as interested in my product.
It is Sophie's choice. I get to be punished by the hirelings, or risk being shunned by the megalith. It is a mindset I neither accept or believe. Like the Donald says, its business, and I am not satisfied with peanuts while the elephant awaits. My goodwill, as expressed through my business, should not be subject to either fetter or abuse...and neither should anyone else's.
Not to start an argument or anything... but you CAN mention/advertise your outside website on your My eBay page. You just can't do it in your auctions. And I regularly get newsletters or e-mails from sellers on my favorites list about things that they have for sale on eBay. You can set that up through eBay. Of course they aren't going to let you use their system to advertise specials on your own website.
gordo, I know I must be very old. I did not understand a thing you just said. Must be for the young folks. LOL
starlight please don't tell me that gossip goes on behind the lines at DG. Everyone here is so friendly.
The reason I don't go on ebay, is because I am oldfolks and don't understand everything, I don't trust it. That's why I would love to have an auction associated with DG, because I trust it.
Aren't there already auctions at DG? I think so. And I've never heard anything negative about them. Maybe I am just naive.
I may not be the sharpest knife in the kitchen, but I am getting lost in all this discussion. What do you mean by saying, "Take the top 100 list under Garden Watch dog" to participate. I thought this was about members of DG selling and buying...not necessarily vendors who have been in business all their lives????? Someone help me, please in understanding what Gordo meant.
I for one am very leary of the idea of auctions. I wouldn't mind a separate yet related site as some mentioned, but I don't want a marketplace in my internet home just like I don't want to live next to the Costco going up next door to my neighborhood.
True, it would probably become HUGE and draw more subscribers, etc, but at some point Dave has to draw the line to maintain his mission of "by gardeners, for gardeners." What would be do if it became as big as ebay? In the past, 'large' scale arguments have turned me off of Dave's for months and years at a time, I don't want something like this to do it again. I know that it's not necessarily going to go bad, I'm just scared of new things obviously. My two cents is, if it's going to happen make it completely separate and seller/buyer id's need to be the same as here.
If Dave decides to exclude flea collars, Nintendo Wii, and naughty lingerie, I'm sure it will still be by gardeners, for gardeners and a great place to be.
;-)
gessiegail wrote..."I may not be the sharpest knife in the kitchen, but I am getting lost in all this discussion. What do you mean by saying, "Take the top 100 list under Garden Watch dog" to participate. I thought this was about members of DG selling and buying...not necessarily vendors who have been in business all their lives????? Someone help me, please in understanding what Gordo meant."
If I understand Gordo's post correctly,she meant to have the "top 100" invited as well as DG members.Many of those are large companies and not necessarily members.I assume this was to increase the size of the auction base.
I think an auction would be great. If I want to participate, I can. If not, I don't have to. With the awesome way Dave has set up DG and it's governing rules, I'm am sure he can take care of the details to accomadate us all.
If it is completely separate from DG, then seller/buyer id's can/should be different.
Also, if someone wanted to sell something garden related on the other site, I don't think it should be a requirement that they be a member of DG. If someone lists something for sale, maybe there could be a review period prior to the item being displayed on the site. That could give the people who are chosen to work the site time to verify that it is a garden-type product.
Oh man, no flea collars and naughty lingerie?? ;^)
Gessie I think it would be a site for both vendors & for individuals. The small-time vendors you find in the gardening business are the best place to find the really cool unique plants that we all love so much.
Ebay just raised the prices on vendors, so it is they who actually started this revolt and it was their emails that got this discussion started. :^)
- Tom
Just following this with some interest. I do believe anyone selling anything on DG should be a member of DG. Otherwise I believe we leave ourselves open to having our e-mail addresses sold or used by outside vendors to sell us more stuff. The last thing I need is more junk e-mail.
Well, they have proven to be reliable, responsible sellers. If their products and service are top notch, disallowing their participation withholds good opportunities for members to be exposed to great buying experiences and stellar plant material.
The discussion forums are rife with members recommending sales from those same vendors; sales they've stumbled upon and reported about. Why not let them participate?
It is fair to offer them an opportunity as well. They've been in the trenches, handled themselves well, and made the top 100.
Gordo,
It's for good reason that ebay sellers are not supposed to contact buyers. I do both but as a buyer, I would not want to be inundated with emails from every seller I have ever purchased items from. I would never get done reading. LOL
We were typing over each other. I don't understand your reasoning in selecting just the top 100 vendors. If a vendor is a member of DG, they should be allowed to participate regardless of their ranking. I am not a vendor as in a business but I do sell on Ebay to support my dirt addiction and would be interested in selling through an auction on Dave's. I do limited trading only because I already have so much that I don't need much more but I put alot of time and money in them and can't afford to give them away for postage all the time.
Jan...
Yes, I know Jan, but you WOULD want to hear from a seller you've developed a good business/ somewhat personal relationship with. Someone who knows you would absolutely love a quadruple, blue Brugmansia and has one saved just for you! ;-)
I think the only way for it to work is to let everyone participate. If you limit participation in any way then it will eventually limit the overall pool of buyers. A smaller pool of buyers means lower sale price, less profit, and less sellers (both individuals & vendors) will choose to come over from ebay.
This is a classic business model where "go big or go home" applies.
Liz I would love to get sale notices from you personally (plants@hulsetile.com put me on your list!), but not really as a general ebay policy from others. Unsolicited = spam.
I've been selling on eBay for three years -- but not garden related items or plants. I sell only Buy It Now store items as I can't afford the auction fees. But even so, the BIN listing fees have gone up 300% in 3 years. That listing fee is charged every single month that the item is listed as a store inventory. I always combine shipping, but I am being forced out of eBay by those who don't combine shipping and then charge a nominal fee for the item. I can't do both -- low combined shipping and non-existent "profit" in the selling price. After I have paid the monthly listings fees and my monthly store rent, then my Final Value Fee to eBay is 10%, soon to be raised to 12%. On an item that with shipping totals just under $6.00, my PayPal fee is 18%.
I have opened on another venue, and as soon as I get things rolling there I will be exiting eBay stage left. The venue I have gone to requires sellers to combine shipping, thereby leveling the playing field for us all. Also, they do not charge a listing fee, continuing or otherwise, just a monthly "space rent" type fee. The the sale fees they charge are half of eBay's and only a fraction of PayPal's.
I have never left a neg feedback for anyone, even the non-paying buyers. However, now eBay has decided that sellers leave neg feedback too often and thereby intimidate buyers -- I suspect that the high rate of neg feedback from sellers is for non-paying buyers, but apparently eBay does not take that into consideration. So, new policy on eBay is that a buyer can ONLY receive positive feedback. I do not think this will work very well.
You all should go take a look at what people are paying for auctions fees -- it's outrageous -- if you're selling small items, it's almost impossible to make a profit. The auction listing fees are totally out of sight, and not to be believed. Remember, too, on eBay auctions if the item doesn't sell, the seller has to pay those fees all over again. For sellers it is always a gamble with "their" money, never eBay's as they just keep collecting and collecting.
I would love to see a site such as the one being discussed. I buy many plants and seeds from the internet. On eBay my purchases are often Buy It Now, but when I do bid on an auction I establish what I am willing to pay, put that in as my top bid. If I get outbid -- so be it. I would also love a site that charges the sellers reasonable fees and requires combined shipping. This would allow sellers to offer items that perhaps are not on everyone's "hot list", but someone, somewhere would love to have it.
I totally believe that Dave is savvy enough to develop a site like this, run it for everyone's benefit, and still make a profit for his company. Sellers would have a far better place to sell their products, and buyers would have a far better place to buy. I totally understand the possible problems some of you are mentioning, and I agree that these details have to be worked out. But I honestly believe that Dave is capable of doing just that and making this a win-win situation for both sides.
Strongly support an auction capability. We need another outlet for items, and I think the community aspect is actually a good inducement to provide value for customers.
DD
Yes I do and I have asked a few select sellers to put me on a mailing list or let me know if they get a certain item in. I just prefer to have that choice.
What's really interesting is that we've already conquered the fear factor and are working out details.
There's no doubt this community can make it happen.
And Dave's got about 300 CEO's working for nothing! LOL!!!
This is great...
To bring some of you ,who aren't Ebay sellers,up to speed.It isn't the increase in fees that bother most of us.Ultimately you, the customer,get stuck with that.The problems that concern me most are the proposed changes in feedback...no seller feedback to be allowed.The second big problem is that now Paypal (Ebay)may hold our money for 21 days after the transaction is paid for.That won't happen to me but one time.The third thing I just found out about today.Ebay now plans to list by price,in ascending order, instead of their normal list by ending date.That means I can list my 25 cent cutting and Gordo can list her 9.95 brug and I get top billing and stay there.The 9.95 plant goes to the bottom of the pile.Am I the only one who thinks that makes no sense.
We NEED another auction site.I do agree that seperate from Dave's is a good idea.
As one who is familar with the large incidence of ebay scams, I'm a little concerned about policing and how scams will affect the overall reputation of DG.
Lol! I started writing this a while ago, but got distracted and this may be a bit repetative by now...sorry!
I do believe my top 6 favorite vendors on E-Bay for plants are already DG members anyway, so why not shed the E-Bay baloney and just do it here!
As a potential cutomer what I would want and use is this:
1.One site that has everyone's "stores" with only plants/garden related items. All vendors should have "stores".
2.One search engine that acurately searches all the stores. ( A good list of tags with definitions should help this for the vendors and users. I do not get consistent results with the e-Bay search engine even tho I know how to use it.)
3.Auctions are ok by me ...I love multiple item or Dutch auctions.
Buy it Nows are great too.
4.Every vendor lists their town and state. (I prefer to only buy plants from those who have similar growing conditions or those who have plants that I know they have raised successfully in those similar conditions. I don't like long shipping routes in the middle of summer or winter.)
5.Garden watchdog is a very important feature and these "stores" on the new site should be included for feedback.
If you are in business or you deal with people you already know you can't please everyone all the time so just handle it with them and Garden watchdog.
6.Seperate Id's? Word will get out anyway as to who is who especially among groups of friends on DG.The only thing I can think of is doing it for safety reasons since the total membership should be able to use the site to make it worth while for the vendors. Misunderstandings and hurt feelings happen here anyway sometimes and the persons just handle it , or they go away. That's too bad, but we are all adults and the nice communication is what is great about this place and I trust those with good hearts not to abuse someone else. Real concerns should be aired and known about in the proper place which is the Garden Watchdog.
7.Shipping...Rules on what to charge ie: cost plus percentage with built in shipping calculators or stated shipping up front.
I loath those people on e-Bay who offer a really cheap price on something and jack up the shipping to an outrageous amount! I can look up shipping and I expect to pay a reasonable amount for time and packing materials, but not highway robbery in the shipping department! I never buy from them.
If everyone knows what the shipping parameters are supposed to be then the buying public would police this themselves quite well.
8. Payment options .. I always use paypal when possible, I prefer it for sure. However as a vendor I don't know if paypal is cost effective for them. Maybe they would like to offer alternatives. Keep Shopping cart/invoicing the same or similar from vendor to vendor.
8. Keep the site simple easy to use and easy to browse..all "stores" have similar format.
9. Advertise the new site in the DG newsletter and forums so everyone will check it out. The classifieds took a while to catch on, I don't know why. Keep the classifieds for those who want to sell a couple of items and aren't in the "business" or who have other non garden related things to sell.
10. Folks should have a way to contact the vendor easily with questions about the item or transaction.
11. Accurate descriptions of items being offered. I love it when multiple pics of actual item are shown, and when size, condition etc is in description.
Hi,
This is a wonderful idea. I am so excited. I do buy from e-bay once in a while but would much rather buy from DG members. As a matter of fact I do know some of the e-bay sellers from DG and would rather order from their web sights.
I am sort of a shy person and always feel guilty asking for plant cuttings or seeds. I would much rather buy from the auction. I also hesitate to offer cutting or seeds what if the person is disappointed or the seeds don't grow. I don't post often but love DG and feel like part of a family.
I know what ever you decide to do will be honest and friendly. Count me in as a buyer.
Linda
I used to buy from ebay, but I quit. It was just too hard to verify the quality of a whole lot of things that I was interested in. In the end, it was cheaper to buy from a discount place -- like instead of buying books at ebay, I buy them from the booksellers on bookfinder.com. On things like dishes, it is possible to verify exactly what you are getting, but plants? I am less sure of that.
Also, what makes ebay work is the feedback system. Don't even consider a system without feedback.
I don't know how the Lily Auction works, but I know people like that. I haven't tried it though.
Yes, yes, and yes - I would love such an addition to DG.
Funny, but I was just wondering the other day why you
don't have such a feature. Auction, Buy-It-Now, or
whatever. You're a smart cookie and will figure out
whatever is best and easiest to use, and is DG friendly.
I've been ripped off on eBay several times and not once
did I have it resolved where I got my money back.
I've bought from large and small stores in the mall and
been both pleased and agitated. So what's new ?
People are people wherever you go - it's just that a
larger majority of the nice people congregate here.
Like someone said here earlier, there will still be swaps
and RUs and seeds for postage. The kind and generous
folk here will continue to nourish new gardeners and gift
those not in a position to buy, or just send to the many
friends they've made here. But it would be nice to be
able to buy a plant from someone here that you don't
know well but you know is a true gardener and will
accurately describe their plants' habits.
Yes, please, Dave - I will buy and be happy !!!
And thank you for thinking about it.
Thanks people for answering some of my questions about what gordo was saying.
I most definitely think one should have to belong as a subscriber to DG to even be allowed to sale on the site. If someone from Ebay wants to come over and join us, then great. But every subscriber of DG should be able to participate and why do you care if the top 100 watchdog companies should be targeted. They aren't necessarily the best...ratings are all relative. I have gotten a lot better cuttings and plants from DGers than I have the biggest vendors in the US>
I agree the sellers should not have to be subscribers. It's a small price to do business. The buying, though, would have to be open to everybody, even the general public, otherwise the customer base will be too small.
Even though it isn't perfect, the feedback system keeps people more honest. Personally I have never had a problem with the 57 purchases I made on E-bay.. primarily because I always check the seller rating. If they are a poor rate, I go with someone else or wait until something else comes around. Seems to work for me. I am sure people will still have occasional problems, but this is the way of the world. There is no perfect system. Keep us posted, Dave!
I see a lot of comments about not wanting a Dave's auction to interfere with the free exchange of plant material between members.
We sell plants locally and have sold a few on eBay, but we still have sent plants and cuttings to DG members and others, either in trade or for postage reimbursement. That is unlikely to change, for the most part people who garden and love plants are generous.
I know that I set aside: 1) plants for trades and postage; 2) plants for roundups and swaps and; 3) plants for sale, very often in that order of priority. As we come to depend more on the plant business to provide income in our 'retirement' years those priorities may change, but I cannot envision the change that would have to come about my very soul that would lead me to stop trading/giving plants altogether.
That aside, I think there should be separation of auction and discussion forums, but I for one want to stay identifiable as Maggi, whether it's Maggidew here at Dave's or as Maggi's Garden Magic elsewhere. Whatever problems people have had (if any) with my past performance or my plants, I will not hide my identity here or anywhere. I would rather take the knocks from detractors than go incognito.
As for the feedback issue, I believe that an honest exchange between members via D-mail (or email) should resolve any issues of plant quality, timely shipping, etc. There are always folks who will be reluctant to complain about real problems, just as there are those who will complain (ad nauseum) about imaginary problems.
I am sure that as a strong community we can build an auction that is fair and reasonable for all involved, without sacrificing the 'family' feeling here at Dave's Garden.
I know that Dave's discussion forums reach far beyond the garden and I think it would be unwise to exclude from any auction format those folks who have other interests.
I ask for an auction a year ago and I am still in favor of it. If you don't want to buy, don't buy or look. I like being able to sell only to DGer's. They are the best!
Hi everyone,
Although I'm not a seller, I do support maggidew's view and phylosophy on the topic. Though, it's paramount on Dave and his Staffs to navigate this venture into a benificial venues for everyone's interests. At first I noticed the thread's header, I bypassed putting in my $0.2 But, there was a pop-up inviting me here to give my vote.
I vote yes.
Kim
Where are the sellers who initiated contact with Dave? For those people on Dave's who grow unusual plants, there is really not a good place to sell except at plant shows so I am really behind this move.
I am sitting here with gorgeous Sinningia hatschbachii 'Iporanga' and Koellikeria erinodes 'Chopada dos Guimaraes' and would love to have an avenue for all of these plants I grow from seed. (just as an example)
However, I do remember Dave wanting to hear from the sellers who are wanting this move.
I still feel that for that community feeling that anyone who wants to sell should belong to this gardening site.
I have been a buyer and seller on eBay for years. I sell only occasionally and on a small scale. The combination of seller fee and postal rate hike have made it not profitable at all for us "little guys". I would love a less expensive alternative to eBay. I basically sell to finance my buying,lol. as long as they were separate entities I think it would be a great idea! I know there will always be stinkers out there, but I believe gardening folk to be mostly honest, and if you do right by them, they will do right by you. I hope this come together...I need a new place to shop! ; )
I would think that to have an auction site for "gardening only" would probably not be very profitable. It would be somewhat seasonal and still have to be maintained all the time.
Why would it have to be for gardening related items only? I know people sell things on speculation through the winter but if the crop fails then they have to return payments, I don't think it would be fair to limit Dave's ability to make an auction site for certain things only. I know there should be rules as to what does sell, but being only "gardening related" would keep sellers and buyers from good deals on other things too. As long as it has a good search system you could still find the "garden related things" you are looking for easily what would be the objection for looking for a nice lamp-or a historical romance book?
Sandra
What we are asking Dave to do is start another business to help us out. He will need to add additional help to manage this business and he will need to make a profit. That is in fact why businesses are started. If he does start an auction, he has the right to grow as big as eBay if he so desires. There is no reason to ask him to set up an auction and then to restrict him to just plant related items. This is Dave's Garden. The ' shows possession. We may make suggestions but I feel I have no right to ask Dave to restrict himself just to meet our needs only. I do hope he start an auction and I hope he makes a good profit.
There are alot of subscribers here that sell their wares so to speak, weather it be purses, soap, flower arrangments, home made signs, etc... I feel the subscribers should be allowed to sell their wares what ever they may be.
Who knows, I may not go back to selling on ebay (of which I do regularily) but if I don't have an avenue for my soaps and other things I make to sell, then I'd have to go back to ebay to sell those items.
It's hard enough for me to keep up with sales from ebay and when I place a daves garden add. I Don't think I'd want to keep up with all 3 of them.
I'd be more apt to sell my plants and all my other items on one auction site rather than splitting them up giving my self twice as much work that I couldnt' keep up with.
I would hate to see all of Dave's Garden become a commerical site. I know that is not the idea, but it could easily happen. That, is, in fact, what I feared when DG was bought out by this other company. I really use the Plant Files and the correspondence with others doing the same kind of gardening as me. I would hate to think that it would all become commercial.
Frankly, I buy from mail order houses, not ebay because after 3 years, I still want to be able to find the person who sold me the plant. Sometimes that works on ebay, but no guarantee.
That, is, in fact, what I feared when DG was bought out by this other company
Well it's been 13 months since that happened and I think we've done a fine job keeping the original spirit of the site alive, and we are on track to continue to do that for as long as I'm behind the wheel here.
I don't see adding an auction sister-site as bringing any danger of commercialization to DG.
I, too, am a small time eBay seller - also to supply my gardening habit. As far as postage goes, I try to keep it as close to real cost as possible, but after those fees are deducted . . . I think my eBay days are limited.
I think it important to remember that the auction site will not be on THIS website, but a separate site "based" on the system in place here. As such, I really do not think it fair to limit participation on THAT website to people who are a member here. There are alot of other gardening sites (*gasp!*) that may have members that have garden related items to sell, and that don't want to pay for a membership first!
I haven't noticed any changes to the spirit of DG since it was purchased, only positive change in terms of new features, etc. I can't imagine that a separate website that's affiliated with DG is going to change anything, sellers still wouldn't be allowed to advertise, etc, so I don't see how it could possibly change things here. If you aren't interested in utilizing the auction site, it should be pretty easy to forget it's even there.
I love the idea of an auction site that's affiliated with DG--I haven't done a ton of buying on Ebay, and I feel a site affiliated with DG I'd have a bit more trust and feel more comfortable buying things. And if I can ever figure out how to root cuttings and if the apple moth quarantine in my area ever gets lifted, I would love to try selling some things myself!
I know a lot of people have brought up the idea of people having hard feelings toward each other, buyers having a brown thumb and blaming the seller, etc and I think that's really addressed in the feedback system--I'm assuming it would work like Watchdog where a seller would have the ability to post a rebuttal to someone's negative feedback.
I know when I go through Watchdog feedback, it's usually very obvious from reading the buyer's comments and the seller's rebuttal whether the buyer was being unreasonable or not. And as far as hard feelings go, it's just as easy to get in a tiff with someone now over a trade gone bad, or a difference of opinion in the forums that got ugly, I really don't see how this would make people's relationships with each other worse.
Dave, you just have to make this happen (LOL) as I so want this available and I think the prices will be so much better and reasonable than ebay sellers have to charge (I guess). I don't shop ebay but I certainly would buy and sell if you are at the helm of this endeavor.
With feedback, Dave has the experience of trade feedback and GW reviews to draw upon, as well as being able to look at feedback on eBay, Lily Auction, etc. to judge what does & doesn't work... I think he'll be able to set up a system that will work well for this sort of endeavor, as long as people use it.
I'm really getting excited about the possibilities here... :-)
And I'm all for using PayPal... I like the convenience, despite the fees, and I'm already set up with their system.
I think it's a good idea, as long as it is a sister site as mentioned like bloom.com and landscaping.com, it gives it enough of the needed separation, and one has to intend to go there, rather than it being in our neighborhood of DG threads and discussions.
As a potential seller I both like and dislike the idea.
I like it because it would be another place to sell my product and there are plenty of potential buyers here who understand the product I am selling.
I dislike it because, as many have said it may compromise the integrity and change the atmosphere here at Dave's. I would hate to see friends turn into enemies over bad transactions. I like how laid back it is, with no solicitations, and this is coming from a seller.
If it was set up like Ebay I think it would work, but it will take a while for the feedback to mean anything. You might have a lot of bad transactions in the beginning until you sort out the good sellers from the bad.
If you could keep the same DG atmosphere, and have the auction site I would be all for it.
Davie Brooks II
Brooks Plumerias & tropicals LLC
Yuma, AZ
Dave, your comments accurately describe how these past months have gone...no earthshaking changes!
And HEY, friends! We have no idea of how many times Dave might have had to go to bat for us and his vision for this site. None of those dire naysayers' predictions have come to pass. Please give it a rest.
And let's stop beating a dead horse. It's already the general consensus...and Dave's sensible idea...that an auction site would be separate from DG.
I'd just like to say that if Dave could develop either an auction site or a direct sales site that works half as well as DG does then I would certainly use it - especially if he could maintain the kind of clean interface which he and the rest of the team have developed here. One of the things I dislike intensely about eBay is that the Home page screen is so cluttered up with menus and side bars and stuff. Like many people I have sold (quite) a few plants in my nearly 40 years of gardening - but nearly always with the aim of putting that money back into my own garden and plant collection. Indeed, given that I am living on a restricted income (govenrment disability support), I actually need that bit of extra income to allow me to garden as I wish.
I have purchased plant seeds on EBay, and other things from time to time, but I am definitely deterred (by the existing fee structure) from putting up my own material for sale - Often, if something doesn't sell, you could wind up relisting it to the point where you end up making no money, even if it does finally sell. Someone else also pointed out that even plant trading costs money as soon as you are not doing it face to face because of postage costs. If Dave could make a sales site which would allow the usual methods of payment, ie PayPal, Bank Draft, Money Order and Credit Cards, but at the same time still allow vendors to actually profit from their endeavours it would be a real boon. Personally I think eBay has just gotten greedy since they have so little real competition. I don't even mind if Dave's site (Dave's Auctions?) moves beyond gardening related merchandise - The critical thing is to be able to draw people in as buyers, which means that the items for sale have to be exposed to searching by Google etc.
This is, after all the method by which I discovered Dave's Garden - I was searching for Information on a plant - I put the name into Google, and up came the Plantfiles listing. Now, if I want to buy something, and I know what I want, but not where to get it, I Google it and see what comes up - I don't go to Ebay or wherever first and then search for the item.
Personally I think the username/ID question is a bit of a red herring at this stage - there are arguments both for and against keeping the same User ID in both places, but I think it should be the vendor's choice. Bear in mind that as soon as you complete a transaction you will both know each other's Identity for real. Also the "non-commercial" thing is also a bit of a distraction. At present you can't advertise yourself which is fine, but plenty of people will be happy to recommend vendors to you when you ask "Where can I get get.." on a forum and plenty of those recommended vendors are also members of DG. There are also sponsored forums like the Amaryllis & Hippeastrum Forum and I have never seen anyone on there complain that the sponsorship affects the freedom of discussion or the "friendliness" within the forum. If Dave starts up "Dave's Auctions" or what ever he decides to call it, he can promote it here or anywhere else as he wishes, but I am pretty sure he will put the preservation of the friendly nature of this site at the top of his list of things to acheive.
Apart from making sure that a reasonable number of payment methods are available, the other things I would like to see would be the existence of both auction and set price selling, a better (cheaper) relisting policy, and some sort of sensible shipping price policy. Really, if you are selling something the profit should be in the price where the intending buyer can see it up front - not in some sort of ridiculously over inflated "Shipping fee" as this is a deceptive practice which should be stamped out.
Anyway, that's my 2 cents worth, and I look forward to seeing further developments as they happen.
I don't believe that an auction site is a good idea for a number of reasons.
If it were so profitable, ebay would not now be moving to a focus on a buy-it-now paradigm, which is what they have announced they are doing. Have you ever really looked at the ebay listings and seen how many merchants are making their profits from the shipping? I have seen many threads in ecommerce discussion forums on webmaster sites on that very topic. Ebay does not get a cut of the shipping, and that is why sellers locate their profit there. That's how they can sell things for 99 cents. That's one of the many reasons ebay wants to switch to buy-it-now--to stop the sellers from cheating them out of their fees.
There is interest in starting auctions here and now precisely because ebay has raised their fees and will continue to do so, as they have announced, and people who have focused their business on ebay are not going to be able to continue to function there. So they are leaving in droves and looking for another outlet, and so they ask about this here.
It would be a nightmare to administer. And what happens when someone gets ripped off? Who's ultimately responsible? It will redound back on DG regardless of whether it is a separate site or not.
Most people involved in businesses online do not sell on ebay. That is not just a vote of no confidence. That is because they already have everything in place to sell off a site. Why should they want to sell on ebay or any auction site and pay yet another portion of their profits to another bunch of strangers? So there is no motivation for the top 100 of the GW or any other successful online businesses to sell on an auction site.
Then you also have the question of how the money will change hands. Paypal? That is a big reason why so many sellers have already left ebay.
The reason to give some of your profits to "strangers" is because they are facilitating the sell of your product and deserve some of the cut, but not as much as ebay does. Some of us do not have enough to sell, to actually maintain a full website, an auction site on DG would help people like me reach more people than I do now. The people would get a cheaper product because they would not have to help pay for the high mark up of ebay. Just my opinion.
Davie
I fall into the Nay voters. Separate website or not, I also view this as a baby step to less of 'for gardeners, by gardeners' to more 'for buyers from sellers.' Even an affilliated auction site will affect DG, be it positive or worse. Any negative fallout WILL spill over to DG, it has before, it has been ugly, and it would deter me from coming here in the future.
The biggest attraction of DG is its friendly atmosphere, the true love of gardening and non commercial sharing along with total intolerance of promoting personal business, except in Classified ads. If Gordo, and others, want a captive audience of "elephants" to purchase their treasured "peanuts" for sale, then buy an ad. Advertise in your local paper, your regional paper, online whereever, a good gardening magazine, DG Classifieds.
I'm sorry so many of you sound enthused. It all boils down to the almighty dollar, dinar, euro or yen doesn't it? What about the good will of "preserving plants and pollen" and whatever else Gordo proposed in such a humanitarian spiel above "for future generations" for no fee? No fee whatsoever. What about the sheer enjoyment of gardening without a commercial spin, competetion, and the almighty profit motive?
I'm sorry, I'd not participate even though I have many peanuts to feed the elephants. If you hybridize hibiscus, then do it for the love of the plant, not the dollar.
Dave this is a risky idea. Think, rethink, and then rethink it, as we know you will. Accountability in transactions, lack thereof, bad business, bad blood, and ensuing sourgrapes pouring over to stain the hallowed halls of DG is inevitable. It will adversely affect DG and the tenor of its forums eventually. So sayeth Poochella, 8:20 pm PST 2/6/08 But I am going to change my name to "Wetblanket" ;)
Sorry I don't know how to make this blue so you know its a quote form another person
Poochella "I'm sorry, I'd not participate even though I have many peanuts to feed the elephants. If you hybridize hibiscus, then do it for the love of the plant, not the dollar."
dbrooks "I hybridize for the love of the plant, but without some profit from my love, I will no longer be able to afford to partake in my love. Is it so wrong to try and re coop something so we may continue in our endeavors?"
I also think this could be a source of great opportunity for people to find and purchase plants they have never had access to. Where else can you find such a high concentration of avid collectors of the obscure?
For the average DG'er, I will still visit my forums, diaries, watchdog, files, etc, and if I am in the hunt for a good plant site to get some good deals or exciting, different plants, I will use the auction. Personally, this doesn't need to be blown up into a huge commercial versus personal deal. It can be both. It would be just another great feature of Dave's Garden.
But if you do it, I will probably be sorely tempted to sell my seeds instead of giving them away, swapping them, or trading them. I imagine when the first of us does it, then the rest will follow.
I can also put all the extra dahlia tubers up for sale instead of giving them away and make some money instead of this continual outpour. Hmm, I could just post photos of my blooms/ plants in all the forums as they bloom, and kind of hint around that there might be seed available in September. Since everybody knows I'm selling, I could have the seed up for auction with some link back to the forums to where I've told everybody how great it is.
I'd love to have a safe plant auction site so bad I can taste it but I have some reservations. Would the total number of transactions somehow be listed for each and every buyer and seller? Would the seller be required to leave feedback first to be able to receive their feedback? Sort of like how Amazon handles their feedback system? Once a seller has received payment in full for the item based on how the listing dictated and in the stipulated time-frame, the buyer will have fulfilled their end of the contractual agreement and feedback should be left for them at that time... but it frequently isn't at eBay. I all but stopped buying anything from eBay because I couldn't help but notice listings closing out and no feedback exchanges. All too many sellers were/are holding out leaving feedback for their buyers who paid in a timely fashion in accordance with the listing waiting to see what type of feedback they receive. This practice places a buyer in an incredibly awkward position for the few times a transaction does go south because we can't leave the type of feedback we'd really like to leave out of fear of retaliatory feedback. I truly became quite uncomfortable with eBay's entire feedback system after I had two transactions in which I paid within an hour of the auction's close and received no feedback from my sellers because both claimed they always waited for their buyers to leave feedback first to make sure they were happy with their item (well, if it is as described in the listing and matches the photo and isn't riddled with pests... what's the problem and hence what's the real hold out?). What I did receive from those two sellers was a lot of fantastic excuses as to why my items weren't able to be shipped within 30 days. Took too much time corresponding with those two sellers and the excuses they came up with for why they weren't shipping within 30 days were rather fantastic and I'd be hard pressed to believe their excuses were anything but manufactured. I would have dinged them in a heartbeat for being placed in the miserable position of having to repeatedly initiate contact to find out where my items were but I couldn't because of the risk of receiving retaliatory feedback. We all know there are an incredible number of sellers on eBay holding out or not leaving feedback at all and I really don't like feeling as if I have no recourse other than eBay's Safe Harbor or whatever they heck they call it. Although I'd like nothing better than to be able to buy plants from an auction somewhere, the only "game in town" currently seems to be eBay and I won't buy plants from them any longer and I rarely buy anything else from them that can be purchased elsewhere because I can't see the total number of transactions to compare to the feedback that has been exchanged. I guess it's not so much what you read in the feedback but what you don't read. Seems to me as if their feedback system heavily insulates sellers. Actually if this comes to fruition here, I'd like to BEG that feedback be required for every DG auction transaction with the seller being required to leave it first once they receive payment.
Me personally, I'd use my same user name if DG started an auction site. I had hundreds of transactions at eBay and had 100% positive feedback before I stopped using their services when I couldn't leave appropriate feedback for those two sellers without risking getting dinged. To this day no feedback has ever been exchanged between me and those two sellers. Exactly how many buyers are out there who were left in the same predicament as me who never left appropriate feedback? Really makes you wonder given their feedback system. I'm not a nursery and I give extra plants and seed away or bring them to RUs so I won't have anything to sell. As a potential buyer, I share the same concerns as WillisTxGarden
Quoted:
The only problem I could see is the failure by anyone,... to be honest/factual about any transaction.
If a fair feedback system isn't implemented, I suspect there would be a very real risk of hard feelings cropping up and bleeding out into the threads.
I'd really love to have an online auction place for plants where I feel safe and think this is probably the best place for it to happen if it's going to happen at all. I guess my question would be what will be done about the feedback so DG doesn't end up like another eBay where buyers are afraid to leave neutral or negative feedback?
Yes, bad blood between seller and buyers already (and very recently) came out on the threads. Just this past week in the Morning Glory thread. A bad Ebay transaction that turns out was actually a member of DG. I was told about it, but by the time I went to see for myself the thread had been pulled by DG staff.
I don't see why it's a bad thing for there to be a separate auction site. If the auctions were there all over our DG home page, then yes that would be a bad thing. Or if the rules against self promotion were being taken away so people could talk openly about their auctions in the forums that also would be a bad thing. But neither of those things are happening--it's a completely separate site and if you aren't interested in using it, honestly you probably won't even notice it's there, I don't see how anything's going to change on here.
To use Suzy's example of hinting around about seed being available at such and such a time hoping to lure people to your auction site, people could totally do that now--there are plenty of DG'ers who sell on Ebay now, or who have websites where they sell, I don't see why it makes a difference if the auction site where they're selling is owned by Ebay or Name Media. People who engage in self-promotion are going to get caught eventually, and people who violate the site rules and continue to do so after getting warned about it are going to get kicked off. Subtle self-promotion might take a little longer to catch than the obvious sort, but if the self-promotion is obvious enough that it actually succeeds in getting people over to their auction site, they're going to get caught.
I'd also point out that some of these same concerns probably existed when the Classifieds forum was launched, and that hasn't caused any problems. And that forum is right here on DG, not even on a separate site. And as I mentioned before, we also have many current members/subscribers who sell on Ebay or on their own websites, and that hasn't caused major problems here, so again I don't see why there would be a difference just because the auction site is owned by the same company as DG.
The link I provided above, The Lily Auction was started by a daylily grower and lover and it had it's bumps I am sure because it went up against the daylily selling on eBay. It's gone quite well and many updates and improvements have been made. He has always been reachable and helps when problems arise. Kinda like Dave and company. :-)
Twice a year, there is also an unrelated Trade Mart that does very well, many of the same sellers participate so there is room for both. There are so many members here, I'm sure if this was set up with taking all things into consideration, it can work. There are always some that have doubts and do raise some legitimate concerns, thats' normal and those need to be addressed of course. If this gets implemented, they may end up eventually really loving it, or not bother with it at all. I think having it on a totally separate site will really be advantageous.
I used to get around that type of a potentially raw deal by contacting the seller before I bid to ask him/her if I won if they would be ok with accepting an additional dollar from me to add delivery confirmation. I don't think I ever had a seller say no although I had quite a few who never replied to me. I bid on the auctions of those who took the time to tell me they were ok with me adding $1. I did not bid on the auctions of those who did not bother responding to me. Incidentally, one of the bum sellers I had tried to claim he sent my item and that it must be lost in the mail. No reply when I asked him to please take a moment to share the tracking number with me and forwarded him a copy of our correspondences in which he had stated he'd accept a dollar to add delivery confirmation when he shipped. I got my item... darn near 3 months after I paid for it. Oh how wonderful it would have been to have been able to leave negative feedback for him based on our correspondences but no way did I want to end up in a situation where I was being asked to mutually withdraw negative feedback. Seems as if eBay's current feedback situation isn't in the best interests of buyers however I suspect that is by design.
Euilibrium brings up a very goo point. I agree the seller should have to leave feedback as soon as he receives payment in full, but he/she should be able to rebuttal if the buyer leaves a negative feedback rating.
Davie
Euilibrium brings up a very goo point. I agree the seller should have to leave feedback as soon as he receives payment in full, but he/she should be able to rebuttal if the buyer leaves a negative feedback rating.
Davie
This message was edited Feb 6, 2008 10:32 PM
Yes, I agree. A seller should be able to reply to any feedback left by buyers and vice versa. There are always going to be a few fruitcakes out there on both sides of transactions but if everyone out there tries their best to be prompt, professional, respectful, and polite; there will be many more successful transactions than not.
I agree that the feedback for the buyer shouldn't depend on the feedback they leave for the seller. But maybe there could be some recourse for the seller to change the feedback they leave for the buyer if the transaction goes sour.
Consider... Buyer pays promptly, and seller leaves positive feedback saying, "Thanks for your enthusiasm and prompt payment." Seller mails item, buyer claims it was never received. Seller re-sends item with delivery confirmation, buyer again claims it was never received. Seller decides a $1 pack of seeds is not worth any more aggravation and refunds buyer's money. However, seller might now wish to change their feedback to negative with a comment such as "Buyer paid promptly but claimed item was never delivered. I resent item twice with delivery confirmation and finally refunded the purchase price. I would use caution in future dealings with this buyer."
Granted, most transactions are not going to go anything like that... but just as there are occasional sellers who will deserve bad feedback, there will be occasional buyers who do something questionable, even if a transaction looks good at the start.
I think the big thing is to make it really clear that feedback for the buyer should only reflect how the buyer comes through on his responsibilities -- and making the seller look good is not part of that.
I think Dave & co. will figure out a way to make the feedback system work. After all, on Garden Watchdog, vendors are not allowed to give something to their customers in return for good feedback... So I think admin will figure out how to keep sellers from penalizing buyers for giving bad feedback (the flip side of that coin).
Sorry, but I am 100% with Pooch. Please keep auctions away from Daves, aren't there already links to folks that have a particular plant for sale? Please don't spoil Daves, plants are freely traded here now, and that is what is very special about this site.
The only way this could "ruin" the way DG is now is if WE let it "ruin" it. ( not shouting, just emphasizing)
Jeez I wish I hadn't read that thread linked above...some bad feelings aired there. I don't think the person that started it wanted to cause bad feelings, but never the less the better place would have been Garden watchdog or a feedback system. Ecrane and the others are right a very workable feedback system is key here.
I have to say this cause I think that the new site will be successful if we all follow the same guidelines on it that we have to here.
I try my best to be positive here whenever I post...I have a really mean nasty steak that could put anyone to tears, but I control it...at least I sure try! (oops! the word is out and now Dave will be watching my posts) lol!
I am so sorry to read the remarks that someone said about Gordo's comments above.You must not know her at all or the others that I know. It really is not about the money, most vendors who are here just want to keep gardening, want to keep fullfilling their purpose of growing and nurturing plants etc.
I have purchased plants from Gordo that I can't find anywhere else. They are always outstanding. That girl must work hard at what she does, and is a committed plantswoman. She has spent hours here in the forums (for free) helping others too. I am so happy to have found her and it was quite by accident and not at all from DG.
I have wished I could get plants from her without going thru E-bay. She has a passion for what she does and I bet she is NOT in it for the money! I have watched her auctions for almost 2 years and what she makes could not begin to cover all of her expenses!
Most of us do not have the extra money to do everything we want to gardening wise unless we sell plants or other things for the extra money for soil amendements, fertilizer, tools the water bill, the greenhouse etc etc etc...! The price of a plant/seeds is the least of it...lol!
Sharing a new hybrid with others is a wonderful thing that I am more than happy to pay for, after all I would feel pretty small if I did not exchange somehow with that person for their time, expense and effort in producing something that I admire so much. IMO money is not a bad thing in itself, it is simply a medium of exchange that is convenient. Money doesn't behave badly, people do right?
So many folks here do sell plants and things on E-bay and elsewhere and they are still who they are and I do not think a new auction site set up by Name media with Dave's help is going to change them at all!
I have faith in Dave and my fellow Dger's!
Of course like I said it's really up to us to keep things nice isn't it?
Oh please Dave I really hope you can do this! (like a kid jumping up and down now)
I like the idea of a Dave's auction site. I am a seller on ebay and last year I spent over $10,000.00 on fees which I would like to see lowered. When dealing with so many people you do tend to run into a few problems packages you sent never make it to the buyer or odd instructions on separate addresses e-mailed the day after I shipped the package or extra instructions lost in e-mails LOL. These are all things that tend to happen and I have bit the bullet a few times trying to keep my feedback record spotless. At times it did not seem fair and I lost money.
Still I love growing my plants and I love offering my plants to others it's my livelihood and it keeps the plants growing. Their just has to be a good system with clear rules and if their is a problem a reasonable solutions area for dealing with them. If these are offered you could count on me using it regularly.
Hello All ,
I am compelled to speak again. I have spent all day too reading every ones remarks. WHEW!!!
A post above ( can't remember where or when) alluded to what a unique venture selling live goods IS! it is hardly a new venture but for MANY who have posted here and do not have experience at shipping to people in different ZONES, different SEASONS, CROP failures, &
plain "not ENOUGH grown to fill orders taken" could cause ALL kinds of bad mouthing threads to start up. We maybe TOO close to buy from one another if NOT totally anonymously. And I don't believe that is possible !!I Again does any one watch court T.V.? It is full of people who are family or close friends buying and selling to each other. Maybe anonymity has value in selling to "FAMILY/FRIENDS". I Don't think it can happen here!!
Let's leave THIS site alone.
I hope you put up a new site with a totally different name, with NO ads here or links here or anything. I heard it from more than one DGer here and I believe allot of the members would be inclined to SELL instead of trade. Or only trade very generic plants. After all "we have to recoup our costs, pay for our green houses, make some money instead of giving EVERYTHING away" You heard it here yourself!!
DGers who see that they can get $5.00 or $10.00 for "ANY" BRUG cutting will be hard pressed to offer them for FREE! How long will it be before you see NONE being offered for trades or JUST postage???
Oh yeah! some DGers may go the eBay route, "No cost for the Brug but please include $25.00 for shipping and handeling"
I am not in favor of this at this site.
Call it "Plant Auctions" or whatever and let people join THERE and keep their feedback THERE and don't TAINT this Family, friendly garden site with dollars, profits and squabbling!!! I don't care if some think "we are above bad behavior, bad deals and squabbling" We have NO where to go IF it DOESN'T work!!! And all of the models we would be copying have LOTS of angry people!!
You heard them and their stories here too!!
The reason this works is exactly that we don't really form many strong opinions here. We don't need to. We are just chatting and learning. But add MONEY and people begin to JUDGE!
And with judgement comes posturing, defending, and squabbling. It is inevitable!!
You begin to see this site differently. You are now judging instead of MEANDERING, learning, sharing and browsing.
Even now I can tell you everyone who has said YEAH or NAY is or has been JUDGED by those who are reading these posts. It changes FEELINGS of COMRADERIE to COMPITITION!!
I know people want to sell somewhere. I hope it is FAR, FAR AWAY from Daves!
BTW for those of you who don't know, if you print your postage from the USPS site (priority mail, etc) delivery confirmation is free. I have a small postal scale and always preprint and prepay my postage to avoid the lines at the PO. That way I can have my regular mailman pick up the package at the house if I don't have time to go to the post office.
I agree with chefmike, let's keep the business out of DG.
There already exists a plant (and related items) -only auction site. probably not OK to mention the name here.
I believe an auction site would work quite well and would dovetail with DG's model.
I don't think you should require membership fees for buying.
I'm an active plant buyer, but if you require me to pay a fee even before I can buy that "gotta have it" plant item, I won't pay it. Just speaking honestly.
And I'll bet that contributes greatly to the success of ebay.
That small fee may be something you require of a seller, but if you want others, you should leave the buyer portion open to the public.
The vendors would need the traffic - they need the open portion for people to surf and purchase from them.
Just my two cents worth.
****Wanted to add this: Of note, on another forum - the members are all aware of who is buying what on ebay, including which of its members are selling on ebay and who we are buying from. We actually try not to step on each other - and occasionally we do - and razz that person. (ha!)
It's ebay of course, but if you think of the analogy, that is discussed and integrated quite well on that other forum without fanfare - and without issues.
And everyone keeps those people on that particular boad up to speed on the latest oohs and aaaahs on ebay.
We even chase down some of the vendors to find their sites to purchase right from them if we lose on auctions.
There's a short analogy that may help keep some of the fears at bay.
Most people involved in businesses online do not sell on ebay. That is not just a vote of no confidence. That is because they already have everything in place to sell off a site. Why should they want to sell on ebay or any auction site and pay yet another portion of their profits to another bunch of strangers? So there is no motivation for the top 100 of the GW or any other successful online businesses to sell on an auction site.
Sorry, I have to disagree on this one. I know lots of big business' sell on Ebay, Bass Pro being only one of them, and they have a HUGE private business.
Problem with limiting listing to the "top 100" is that many small DG sellers will never make that list no matter how good their service is because they just don't do the volume. Limiting it to the top 100 just gives the successful more success and makes it harder for the smaller guys, especially those new to the game, to get a niche.
It's like talk shows interviewing celebrities. Do the famous really need any more fame? I say, share that spotlight!
I don't think there's any reason to limit a list of would-be vendors, and I'm not sure that's what gordo was suggesting. (I think she was meaning we should target those companies first, as they are the top-rated companies in the GWD.)
I also think quite a few of those top 100 do sell via eBay and/or the Lily Auction. The company ratings have nothing to do with their size, although some of the largest US companies like Home Depot and Sears sell on eBay.
I think that the most likely "takers" on this idea are smaller sellers, because they are the ones getting hit the hardest with the fee increases (if I'm reading the eBay scuttlebut correctly.)
We hear the concerns loud and clear. But if it eases the minds of those who are worried about crass commercialism horning in on the forums, I think that's a non-issue.
1) The forums are offlimits to self-promotion. (Yes it happens from time to time, but it's usually reported or discovered by us, and removed. Chronic offenders don't last long.)
2) We've had a "commercial" side for a long time, starting with the Garden Watchdog launch in 2001, which has counterparts in the Bookworm (partnering with Amazon.com) and Go Gardening.
Member ("SCIF") stores were attempted and ultimately shuttered due to lack of participation, and PlantScout, which was launched five (? - wow!) years ago, and Classified Ads a couple years ago. On and off, we've offered DG merchandise - mugs and t-shirts - through a storefront here.
All of those features have not detracted from the tenor of the forums, but rather, they've brought many conveniences to our fingertips and they've brought in new members to the site. Combining a solid "bedrock" of longtime members along iwth a steady stream of new members is why the site remains vibrant and energetic.
I love the fact that if there is a problem here, you can reach someone and bwahlah the problem is fixed. On ebay the thoughts of reaching the owner or any executive is absolutely unreal. They are so big that there is no personalization.
I vote for Dave to make a success in whatever endeavor he undertakes. I just hope we are still able to personally send an e-mail if we want to get in touch with someone on the staff. I don't mean one of the million people who are employed by the owner, I would really miss that closeness.
That said, I believe Dave has the heart to have a site where he could make a fair income and we could still have a fair chance to make one also. Ebay started off with just a guy wanting a place for his wife to sell her pez collection. If Dave starts off now he will be so far ahead of ebay's beginning.
I, like Flowerjunkie want to know when I can buy stock! I believe that we could really have something here that will take the web auctions by storm.
I do hope I will be able to sell my hatching eggs there as well as plants related items.
I suppose there is one thing that we haven't thought of and that is the fact that DG membership will probably soar. If we continue having RU's and other things of that nature they will probably even get better. More people in our immediate area will join and we will be able to have more personal contact with those people. Gardeners can't resist trading and giving away plants, so in that respect it just might even make the whole aspect of DG get better.
Instead of having to drive a long way for an RU, we may have more of them and likely have them nearer to our own homes.
I have been selling plants on ebay for almost 9 years now. There are only a hand full of people, my closest friends on DG, that know that. I have always offered my plants up for trade or postage, $$$$ don't affect my giving spirit. I have also purchased plants from local vendors for others on Dave's because we get them so cheap in the Houston area. I will always try to trade first but with my 'rare' taste there are very few DG's that have what I am looking for. THAT forces me (I like to think) to PURCHASE my plants. I am a plantaholic by nature and I just have to have what I want when I want it. If I can't find it at Dave's I will go to e-Bay. If I can't find on eBay I will look at on line nurseries, yes I will pay $25.00 plus shipping for Ligularia. I am not a weathy person so I WILL sell my plants so I can feed my plant addition.
I recently posted a classified add on Dave's for NAMED brug cuttings at a $1.00 (also sent extra cuttings for free) plus the REAL shipping cost. I too am not a fan of people that make money on the shipping. Ohhh, and by the way although e-Bay does not make money on the shipping portion of auctions won, PAYPAL (an eBay company) does. PayPay gets 30 cents just because and then 3% of the total money you recieve from the seller. OK. back to my classified add. I could have very easily sold all those cuttings (believer me I had alot) on eBay for alot more BUT I felt it would be much better to sell them at Dave's for $1.00. For two reasons:
1. Dave's made $5.00
2. Dave's members acquired some really nice brugs that they could not otherwise get, be it by trading because they had nothing to offer up, or could not afford to purchase. Some DG's will have very nice collections to trade from next fall and THAT does my heart good.
There are greedy people everywhere, even in the trade world. I'm sure lots of us have been ask to give up 4 or 5 plants in exchange for that one we really want. Or have disgruntal traders that thought they should have gotten bigger plants since thier ONE was such a rare plant. Plus what about the times you send a trade and get NOTHING back? Even if you finally do get something back its a dead plant or not what you traded for.
eBay is getting out of hand on fees which is forcing those that have no other outlet for the trade to come up with ways to make some money after all the fees have been extracted. I'm afraid eBay is creating its own doom by thier ever escalading fees. The company was doing so well about 2 years ago. I haven't posted auctions as I did before because its just not worth it.
Flowerjunkie, I really appreciated the $1 cuttings. I could have never afforded to buy them at an auction. You know very well you could have made much more than a dollar a cutting and that isn't counting the extras you sent. I feel like I was treated like a friend or family on that opportunity. That is the spirit of DG'ers and I feel like if I have the opportunity to offer the same type of deal, I'd do it in a heartbeat. It is just kind of nice to know that all your babies are out there growing in someones yard.
I have done the same with my hatching eggs. I love getting photos of little biddies that hatched out. Even on ebay when someone's eggs didn't hatch, I would send them more just for the postage. I have sold antiques on ebay years ago when ebay first started. It was amazing how much I could get for something that had set on the shelf in my antique shop for years just by listing it for auction.
Ebay was a great experience in the beginning. It just got to the point that they don't allow enough of the profit to go around. They are making all the profit for themselves and therefore they are losing sellers.
I would love to have another place like ebay used to be. I would also like to have more DG members to join that live nearer to me. I think if anyone can pull it off, Dave can do it.
The other problem with an auction of any kind is that for desirable plants, only the well-heeled can afford to stay in the bidding long enough to win. That leaves many of us out in the cold unless there is a "buy it now" option. I have a special pet peeve about those "auctions" that take place at plant society meetings. Seems like the officers end up with most of the plants. I wonder why . . .
I have been thinking about this concept and reading this thread ever since it was introduced. (Thank you Gordo for all your work alerting all the forums.) I haven't had time to read each and every post so forgive me if I'm echoing other's thoughts.
First of all, I believe in cross marketing and that is what these business people are doing by selling on Ebay and their own website. It is a very discreet process because Ebay has their rules about promoting other businesses. But after awhile, people can figure out who the seller is. If I know someone on Ebay has a website, I'll contact them through their website and they are most happy to sell their plants direct for less and avoid the listing, gallery, and final value fees which eat into the profit. Without the excessive fees, people can keep their prices where they should be without padding the shipping costs.
So this platform will be perfect for those who want an avenue to make money as previously noted to sell their excessive plants, offshoots, or those who need to clear out the greenhouse for winter, summer or just new plants.
Another point is that we get to know each other pretty intimately with regard to gardening. We know who the experts are, who is propagating or growing from seed or leaf cuttings.
Do we really need a feedback system here? We all pretty much know each other. I would love to buy one of Gail's expertly grown babies or Bill's beautiful rare plants.
How about adding a "Want to Buy" feature to the new DG Auction Site?
Just a few thoughts - I'm all for it. I'll probably pipe in again before too long. I'll quit buying on Ebay - maybe ;o)
For those of you who seem to be opposed to this new idea, I don't think you have shipped as many packages as some of us who have paid the 10 or 12 dollars a package. I had recently reached the point where I thought it might be time to move on over to other gesneriad sites where people buy and sell every day of the week.
It is very costly to trade often times. Gardening is expensive and i think finding a way for people who love to garden to buy or sell would solve some of these problems. Someone (without naming any names) sent me dead cuttings of a plant...those things happen sometime and nothing was ever said by me in trying to keep dave's 'friendly'. There needs to be more accountability and this new auction or buy now sounds to me like a good idea...
I can assure yu that if Dave doesn't do this, more and more gardening web sites that I
join, will do exactly what Dave is proposing...they are already doing it on a small scale and i love it.
***edited to say that I ordered two weeks ago 26 sinningias from a vendor who doesn't sell on ebay and did it on a gesneriad chatting group. I also received pots from him which cost 1/2 of what they were being sold for on ebay.
Cindy, we definitely need a feedback system, because the auction site isn't going to be limited to sellers that we all "know" from DG... but I'd be willing to try an order with somebody I didn't "know," especially if I saw feedback from a couple of happy DGers whose opinions I respect.
Good Mornin' one and all!
Back for another day of great conversation and ideas flowing like lava from the volcano! :-)
What a great thread! Its like birth...lots of pain, huffing and puffing, pushing and cussing...then Voila!! You own a miniature copy of Winston Churchill minus the cigar! Less than six months later, you could swear you've been gifted with an angel and you forget the all the calamity that came before.
The important issue is this - the same gentle, plant folks you're all defending are YOU. As members of Dave's Garden, we've seen controversy plucked from the mainstream conversation and brought outside to duke it out to a finish. The cyber cooling chamber. Dave and his staff are masters of this technique, so I'm not a bit concerned about whatever dust ups might arise. In truth, I'm more confident that problems will be resolved here, than I am that they would be resolved to great satisfaction at eBay.
This same spirit will be part of the selling experience, I'm sure. Common sense reigns here. The very fact that Dave and his staff are right here with us hashing out ideas is a clear omen of what will be. This country is founded upon the right of a guy to grow 50 acres of corn on his own land, gather his crop, keep what he needs, give away what he wishes and sell what's left to put shoes on his kids. He sells to his friends and neighbors. If he's an S.O.B defrauds, cheats and abuses his neighbors - they do an amazing thing...they choose not to buy from him. If his corn is top quality and he throws a couple of extra ears in with the order, knows your kids' names, mourns when you mourn and rejoices when you rejoice...you choose to continue trade with him. Common sense.
Over the past few years, my small plot of land has enabled me to become well from a serious illness. As this transformation was happening, I came up with the simple notion that it could do the same for other people. Many people contributed to this garden, and I have not forgotten a single one of them. With hard work, sacrifice, sweat and pain, it is now able to produce lovely things.
Since I'm unable to scan 100.00 bills and freely distribute them, I need money for soil, fertilizer, hoses, clippers, you all know the routine. Selling off plants keeps the garden going and throws a chicken on the table. It also enables me to send cuttings and seed to anyone I wish. Without a brag, I have sent literally thousands of seeds to plant societies, organizations of many kinds and many individuals for free. Good business people know their social responsibilities and make it a point to live up to them. Overall, most of us have a heart and intend to express the better part of it in a generous and rational way. I also only drive one of my fleet of Hummers each day (just kidding - Plymouth Voyager with the back seat removed for Home Depot runs).
Selling something at a separate yet, affiliated Dave's site creates a Gardener's Mall. There's where we'll meet and greet, trade, talk the talk and go away with a plant or two and some supplies. We won't be accosted with BMWs, real estate auctions, Game Boys, ads, promotions that shout at us and guys looking to pick our pockets. We'll have the Mall police watching over us. (Something sadly lacking over at eBay). If a guy comes in and starts fights, he'll he denied access. His loss. We'll watch the commotion, yak about it for a while, then go back to poking around in the wares and talking the talk. Gardeners all.
So, the thing will be what we choose to make of it. If you think you find good will and respite here among the membership, you will most probably find the same when you trade with your fellow members. If you think Dave and his staff do a great job ironing out scuffles and maintaining a pristine landscape, why shouldn't that continue? All the trepidation and fear expressed about this enterprise are those seen and experienced ELSEWHERE - misdeeds done by those outside the fold, done without conscience and with impunity. Why would those to whom you have expressed those fears and found consolation seek to harm you?
I'm as chugged up about this new enterprise as a soul could be. The freedom to be able to openly correspond with friends (who happen also to be customers), recommend other sellers (I don't have it, but I know someone who does.), contact a pal (remember that cutting you wanted? I HAVE one) and the goodwill of the group (SO-and-so's husband just passed away. Let's go over and buy up a ton of seed and help her out)...the possibilities for success on a myriad of strata opens up. This journey will go where gardeners have never gone before...the cyber gardening community that serves plant lovers in all ways. Our place with a store where we may do our shopping unmolested, in a safe atmosphere with a hometown feel. We can do it...all of us.
Do we really need a feedback system here? We all pretty much know each other.
Absolutely. I believe we do and I strongly suspect I am not alone although others may not feel comfortable commenting because of the sit down for a spell... kick your feet up... and have a cup of coffee atmosphere we've been enjoying for all these years. DG would be entering a new arena that would need to have its own system of checks and balances to provide an environment where people would feel safe to buy. Without buyers, the site will not survive. Remember, most of the people who feel very strongly about this evidently already sell on eBay and want a site to go to where the fees won't unduly cut into their profit margins while buyers want a site where they feel reasonably confident they can look at a seller's feedback and bid with some semblance of confidence. You can't do that currently with eBay because of all the current feedback deficiences they've allowed to exist for all these years that favor the sellers. I know a few members who sell on eBay and I have to tell you I went and took a quick look at their feedback and cross referenced it with their buyers. Not so amazingly, I found a disproportionate number who weren't leaving feedback until it was left for them by their buyers. Modeling a feedback system after eBay's current system would not exactly foster an air of equitableness in my humble opinion.
Plant trading/seeds for postage, etc.: keep in mind that anyone who wants to can put those same plants/seeds up for sale on eBay right now. So, I don't see any reason to believe there would be a big change in this aspect of DG.
Bad feelings slopping over into DG: we are all supposed to be adults here and behave like adults. I don't really see this problem very often at DG fortunately and see no reason for that to change. I have over 4300 feedback at eBay with 100% positive. I have had unreasonable buyers with bogus complaints -- I just refund their money. I want to emphasize that these buyers are a teeny-weeny percent of my buyers. The huge vast majority of my buyers are nice people and a pleasure to do business with. I consider the few jerks I run into as a cost of doing business.
Payment options: Frankly, PayPal is just too expensive for the seller. My PayPal fees run from 10-18% of the total sales including shipping. The new venue I'm moving to charges 5% on MasterCard and VISA payment. They have been in business for years, so apparently the high cost of PayPal is not really necessary, except to feed eBay. I would hope that the new DG site does not include PayPal, but a CC option similar to the one I am moving to. On either venue the seller can accept MOs or personal checks, if he or she wants to.
Online businesses do not sell on eBay: As stated above by Big_Red, this is just not true. Many of the businesses on eBay are huge sellers elsewhere on the internet. Perfect Plant comes to mind. Off the top of my head, I can't remember who they "really" are, but they are a major plant nursery. Maybe someone else remembers. The advantage of a site like the one be posed here, is that small businesses that cannot afford the advertising or overhead for a separate site can put their wares there and be seen by potential customers.
Penny sellers on eBay: Yes, they price their stuff low to be first up on a "low price first" sort on eBay and their profit is in the shipping. And, yes, they also do this because they can avoid the eBay fees. Personally, I have complained repeatedly to eBay about this. Their answer is always: We cannot tell people what to charge for shipping. I consider this excuse to be baloney. Yes, they can, other sites do. They just don't want to. A new rule on eBay starting, I think, Feb. 20th is that all Buy It Now items or store inventory must have a price of at least $1.00. I find the Penny Sellers annoying because they are riding free on my dime. I charge a reasonable amount for my items and a reasonable amount for shipping and combine shipping. Hence, I pay a lot of eBay fees, and they don't.
Seller feedback first: I don't leave feedback first. When a buyer leaves me feedback, then I know the item arrived and the buyer is happy, that there are no problems. If a buyer wants me to leave feedback first, I only ask that he or she let me know when the item has arrived and that there are no problems, then I am happy to leave it first. Otherwise, I would have to go in and check the confirmation number at USPS repeatedly to see if it had been delivered. Then I would have to send an e-mail to the buyer asking if all was well. I just don't have the time to do this.
Confirmation number: I always, always ship with a confirmation number, if I can. I also send each buyer an e-mail telling him or her that the item has shipped, including the confirmation number if I have one. Confirmation numbers are free with electronic postage on Priority Mail. They are not free on media mail. The cost is $0.18. They are not available on first class, overnight shipping or parcel post, whether domestic or international. The post office only picks up domestic Priority, First Class or Overnight mail, not the other classes. Those must be delivered to the PO by the sender using $3.00/gallon gas.
eBay stores: There are different classes/levels of eBay stores. Which type of store you have, determines where or even if your items come up in a search. I don't believe auction items are affected, but I don't know for sure. Auction items have a different problem as the listing fees are so high that if the item doesn't sell and has to be relisted by that time there is no profit there for a small seller. The venue I am moving to has no auction items. They are all Buy It Now. There is no listing fee, only a monthly fee (which is less than an eBay store) based on the number of items I have listed. Many items I have that would not be a fast seller, I will be able to list there. I have not been able to list them at eBay because of the 30-day relisting fees. If all goes well, I expect to be off eBay in six months.
Opening the site to merchandise other than gardening related: I can't see any reason why the site shouldn't be open to other types of merchandise. As someone mentioned here, the ads on DG are not restricted to gardening items only. Probably the emphasis would end up being on gardening related items, but I don't think it should be restricted to that. Run as a separate site, I don't think the sellers or buyers should have to be subscribers or even members to DG. That would keep the pool of potential buyers and sellers too small to be viable.
IDs: What difference does it make? Use the same one or use a different one. I have two IDs on eBay. One I use to sell and one I use to buy. Many people use the same one for buying and selling. That's a choice that should be up to the individual. I use a separate one at eBay because you can run a search there and see what that person has bought or sold. I just don't think it's my customers' business to know what plants or seeds I have purchased or that I bought a stun gun for my daughter for protection from a stalker.
As for those who don't want to buy or sell on a site like this, don't. That's your choice, and you're entitled to make it. No reasons need be offered for your decision. If you don't want to, that's good enough.
I say it's a good direction for Dave to take. He needs to grow his business, and I think he's smart enough to know how to make it work. I personally have full confidence in Dave's ability to set up the site, with reasonable fees, and to tweak the rules if/when necessary to make this a valuable resource for all who want to participate. If it's open to merchandise other than plants/gardening I will take a close look at participating as a seller and a buyer. If it's not, I'll shop as a customer only. Either way, I truly think this is an opportunity that Dave can manage and make into a success.
Of course, a feedback system is essential. As it stands now, eBay feedback consists of a box for about 100 characters and four checkboxes that rate the overall deal from fair to stellar.
I like Amazon's and Download.com and Dave's feedback boxes. Lots of room for comments and free thought and a simple yay or nay (with the opportunity to make amends). If a comment takes the shape of a fisticuff, dave's staff can pluck it out, grab the parties involved, negotiate and ultimately decide who's being reasonable and who isn't.
You don't have that opportunity at eBay.
The problems at eBay are not just monetary. The loss of individual control and lack of respect is the primary complaint. You're going to the grocer and he's telling you what you can put in your bag. He's telling you how much of it you can eat, who you can feed it to, making you pay up front, and to top it off - he's telling you to come back in three weeks to pick up your stuff...all the while knowing your kids are sitting in the car hungry.
I have been selling on eBay for 8 years. As a power seller, eBay over the years has gotten out of hand with the Store, item listing, sold and Paypal fees.
If it comes to an auction site, don't forget about LAWS. ex. I can have a certain plant in my state, but it is unlawful in the next state over, then country to country. I am not a guniess just giving you something to think about.
On plant shipments to other states: It is up to the customer to know what is allowed in their state, region or country. I've shipped plant material all over the world and have encountered restrictions of all kinds. Some are insurmountable, other sales are easily facilitated by making sure seeds (especially) are labeled to the satisfaction of customs. This requires close correspondence with the customer - each party understanding the risks of international seed shipment.
I've found very little problem shipping seed overseas.
Think a DG auction site would be a good idea. I've bought quite a lot of things from DGers. Only once had part of a shipment not quite up to sscratch and the buyer immediately refunded for those. I would most def. rather buy from DGers. Think we might as well keep our own DG handles, then the comments re members could be put on our own site by sellers and buyers. I would feel much safer buying from known DGers than I do from unknown ebayers. Have never bought plants on ebay though seeds sometimes. Usually I buy books.
I love something like this but I agree with Dave that it should be on another site linked to DG. I think very highly of the DG community and recommend it to a lot of people. I would hate to see anything change the feel of DG. I wouldn't want to chance it. Now, if DG was to start another site for auctioning, you better bet I would be there!
I can tell you from a California standpoint, it's very frustrating to "see" a rare beauty on Ebay that is in NY, but they can't ship to California. But that is where the California seller comes in. *I* for example live in CA, therefore can sell anywhere in CA.
My point is, the more sellers you have, the better, because of the larger potential to get what you really want, and that makes everyone happy.
For those interested in importing or exporting plants, information on exporting and importing can be found here and links to the appropriate permits can also be accessed from this link- http://www.aphis.usda.gov/import_export/index.shtml
I too, have found very little problems shipping or receiving plants/plant parts/seed from all over the world but then I've got all my permits in place and am only dealing with reputable nurseries that also have all their permits in place to include providing me with phytos when required.
Really glad customs, and inadvertently CITES, issues were mentioned as it's been my experience most people don't realize the risks involved with importing and exporting plants.
I just looked at the lily auction and it doesn't seem very cheap to sell there, either. Their fees are pretty high too.
Here's ebay fees: (I hope the formatting stays)
Insertion Fees
Closing Price Final Value Fee
Item not sold No Fee
$0.01 - $25.00 5.25% of the closing value
$25.01 - $1,000.00 5.25% of the initial $25.00 ($1.31), plus 3.25% of the remaining closing value balance ($25.01 to $1,000.00)
Lily auction charges
20 cents to list
# 4% of the amount of the high bid (at auction close) if the bids go up to $9.99
# 5% of the amount of the high bid (at auction close) if the bids go from $10.00 up to $119.99
So if your auction starts at 99 cents and sells for $25 the only difference between ebay and the lily site is 0.25% of closing costs.
to me, it's worth it for the higher traffic generated by ebay.
I personally don't like the varying fee thing. It's should be a flat rate to list something, no matter how much it's started at, or ends at. Also the final ending fee should be a flat rate, say 5%, NO matter what the end price is.
Teresa I feel your pain!' . It is hard to get some hibiscus and even brugs and other things here where I live because either people can't ship or you have to pay a extra 50+ dollars for a phyto certificate. This is just from other U.S. states not overseas even. I could see citrus because it is an important crop here but other stuff should not be such a problem especially when some vendors from a certain state/s can send it but other vendors from that same state can't. I don't think that is fair to buyers or sellers.
What can or cannot be shipped to various states is governed by the Agricultural Departments in those states. Buyers have no control over the issue as it is a legislative matter. If you wish changes in your state's plant importation guidelines, you need to organize fellow gardeners and petition the state.
Hmmm...interesting idea, and I admit I'd love to be able to purchase things via auction here at DG, BUT...I honestly think it would open up a big, fat, ugly 'can o' worms' that the DG adminstration might later regret.
Just my opinion, but I don't think this is the place for auctions.
It seems as if a dead horse is being beaten here regarding the auction site's being separate. For all those in favor of an auction site, that's already the general consensus. Besides, Dave already said that would be the way he'd do it.
I would participate in an auction site offered by Dave. I would like to see it kept separate.
Just a note to Karen, regarding feedback. When a seller tells me they will leave feedback after I do, I do not leave feedback for them. Refusing to leave feedback until I leave mine sorta defeats the purpose of having it. Feedback is supposed to be an indication for others that this person upheld their part of the bargain. My part is done when I've paid the price we agreed on, and that's when the seller should leave feedback. If they won't, then I wonder, If I am honest in the feedback I leave, and it isn't perfect, is that going to mean that I get neg feedback, even though I upheld my part and did nothing wrong?
If I am a disgruntled buyer and cause later problems for the seller, he or she can always go back in and edit their original feedback. It gets added on as an addition, and that's fair. Other readers get the whole story by seeing both.
I noticed increases in my feedback and more compliance when there was problem that needed worked out when I left it myself prompty whether as a buyer or seller. So that`s a good tip. (The other Karen)
I see absolutely nothing offensive about a person asking you to leave feedback. Perhaps they don't have any feedback and need just a few positives to give them all they need to trade.
i have no idea why we wouldn't want to accomodate them. All a person needs is a few positive remarks about trades...the purpose of that feedback is just to eliminate scammers...
I leave feedback when I receive payment for the sale.
As a buyer, I leave feedback when I've received the item in good order. If I have a problem, I contact the seller to see if we can work things out. If the problems are resolved to my satisfaction, I leave appropriate feedback. If they aren't resolved, the same applies.
the purpose of that feedback is just to eliminate scammers...
I disagree. The purpose of feedback was to create a useful tool that buyers could use when attempting to determine whether to bid on an item or not and that sellers could use when attempting to determine whether or not to accept a bid or not. It used to be reliable back when eBay first started but then all the game playing with feedback kicked in when folks on both sides realized they could retaliate with little or no consequences other than the equivalent of a slap on the hand with feedback being mutually withdrawn. Real great feedback system they've got over there- not. Personally, I like Sotheby's system the best. If there's a problem, it's going to be taken care of and you can take that to the bank because no petty politics will be allowed to enter the equation.
Yes, I meant promptly after receiving of course! I have been fortunate because I have had many very good experiences and very few not so good and still there was a good eventual outcome on each and every one.
If I saw a DG auction I`d buy expecially if it was someone I already buy from. :)
The DG trading feedback tool has nothing to do with this topic, but to make a long story short, it was never intended to gather "atta-boys" for good traders. Its main purpose is to flag bad ones for the good of the community.
What I mean is prompt feedback opon recieving items builds trust with your seller and then things go better Next time if there is a problem because they know you are a trustworthy buyer. Whenever I have sold I noticed prompt feedback from me made for better customer relations. That`s just a observation.
I think a fair feedback mechanism is crucial for any auction or marketplace system. I don't know how Sotheby's feedback tool works, but I suspect their clientele may be a little different than eBay's, and reneging, defrauding or defaulting on a Sotheby's auction means there's probably a sizeable amount of money at stake.
Most likely we cannot (for legal purposes) and will not (for practical purposes) closely moderate or mediate any feedback tool; it will have to be fairly self-supporting, as the GWD system is now.
My previous comments were limited to the DG trading feedback system, which is a totally separate, unrelated issue, and I don't want to see people get confused over which one is being discussed.
First, I want to be clear that I did not mean to impune Gordo's reputation with my comments on 2/6 in any way. By all accounts, she is a very enthused, knowledgable grower and businesswoman, and an absolutely exquisite writer! Gordo, if you ever have to give up gardening, you would have a writing career to fall back on instantly. And I'd buy the book ;)
From all your collective posts above, I am sooooooo glad I've never had one thing to do with Ebay. I would rather buy from established vendors, online or brick and mortar, with good reputations and recourse available to the consumer for any bad transactions. NOT that Ebay is all bad, not by far.
Whether DG related/affiliated or not, I guess the proposed auction site would be no different than doing business in the 'real' world. I think feedback on both ends would be an absolute must. But when A pays for an auctioned palm and posts on the Palm forum that the long awaited palm arrived absolutely dead from B, and complains vociferously about B's bad palm, B is going to want to defend their honor just as vociferously right there on that DG forum. Does DG/Namemedia have the staff to monitor such?
Yes, we are supposed to behave as adults, but as consumers, the passion of a deal gone bad is often difficult to contain. In every landscape lies a snake or two, so what's to stop unscrupulous people from joining DG, or the auction site, and faking transactions talking up a product to improve their buy/sell ratings just like the games played with feedback on Ebay? This could be done over and over-when the snake is found out, they just change names and bait the next unsuspecting customer with new IDs/new fake ratings.
Most DGers wouldn't ever dream of such, but realistically an Ebay Wannabe site will inevitably include that disreputable sort. Can Dave or Namemedia police that? I don't know. I suppose Buyer Beware always applies, doesn't it? These are just my 'doubting Thomas' questions.
And can someone from admin define "Affiliated site," please? Would it be a stand alone enterprise, or would it link to DG directly such as tapping into Watchdog ratings, Plantfiles, etc? Perhaps there is no answer yet.
So, because of such abundant enthusiasm posted above, I now throw in the wet towel and support the separate auction site notion with a watchful eye. I wish Dave and crew all the best in pursuing this venture if it proceeds. I wish those that do use it, all satisfactory transactions but I just don't want to read about the bad ones on DG. I hereby change my name in this thread from Wetblanket to Flipflopper !!! LOL
Poochie...I am happy you were not trying to umpune Gordo's reputation. I appreciate reading your post and thoughts on this.
I can understand how you feel about snakes in the grass, and I would love to be able protect all the good souls I know from all the "snakes", but they are just as much a part of life as anything else no matter where you go.
I think this will be a wonderful resource for many many of us here!
Change is inevitable.
It's how we work with the changes that create the perceptions. Take for example the "affiliated websites", discretely listed right here at the bottom of the page. I forget that they are even there, and I suspect any additional sites will be much the same.
Look at the new additions as useful tools, that one can pick up or put down at will.
The membership at DG is so large now, that it's improbable that any migration to sell any of the items designated for trades will be affected in a measurable way. People who want to sell, are selling, people who are not interested in their time being consumed by setting up such a thing are not.
The handful of people who will try their hand at it by a DG site, good for them, but I don't see it being a significant impact on normal DG everyday life.
Lets face facts. Plants are an extremely perishible item. They WILL arrive in poor condition sometimes, this is a fact of life, and affects every single entity who ships them from private gardens to commercial industry. Let DG management deal with it as it has been demonstrated by their track record already. I'd rather have DG managing a concept like this than any other company I can think of, and if you think about it, it goes hand in hand.
This place is, and will always be evolving. While we are made very comforable here, with a wonderful community spirit and opportunities for participation, it is a business, and rather than find ways for it not to work, let us find ways to make it work for all of us.
I think we are all agreed that any auction site will/should be separate from our 'home' here.
We live an hour from the shopping area in Tyler, and more than that from the best nursery in the area, Blue Moon in Edom.
I have bought online everything from Levis (with shipping averaged $15 a pair) to seeds for the garden and local plant sales. I would never be able to afford to shop for those things in 'town' and besides, 'town' doesn't have many of the things I want or need. The price of gas, the cost to my psyche and the wear and tear on the van are enough to keep me shopping online. To say nothing of the idea that I am, ultimately, making a 'green' decision to shop online and have purchases delivered to me. That Postal Service employee drives down my road 6 days a week, whether or not there is a package for me.
In the past when nastiness has popped up on the forums it has been taken care of, has it not? I think Dave and the gang can continue to do so.
No one has ever forced me to shop online, no one has ever forced me to use eBay.
I guess my point here is - we all have the choice. If you don't like it, DON'T go there - pretty simple isn't it?
I've bought a lot of things on Ebay, plants and other things, in the last 4 years and have seen it go steadily downhill, from the buyer's point of view.
Since joing DG last year, I've bought plants/seeds from at least 8 maybe 15 (who's counting?!) of the vendors associated with DG, some from the classified ads, some from reading the forums and learning about the sellers there. I have had only wonderful experiences and am glad to be able to buy from fellow plant-heads. I'm looking forward to a "sister" site where I can buy plants and garden things, although I will still do my homework on the vendors, as I do now. I'll also continue to trade and join in the seed swaps and co-ops.
On a side note, just a few minutes ago, I got an email from one of my longtime Favorite Sellers on Ebay- they are having a 50% off sale before their upcoming closing. Looks like a taste of things to come on Ebay.
Cathy
Well, according to gordo's link eBay is converting to a new feedback system. Guess I was part of the silent majority that got fed up however eBay did end up in some rather expensive litigation that I have no doubt impacted their decision to disallow sellers from leaving any feedback for buyers. Many online auction houses don't provide sellers with an opportunity to rate their buyers, probably cost effective in the long run to only allow buyers to leave feedback. Never did understand why eBay allowed it if they truly wanted a safe environment for buyers. Perhaps we can learn something from eBay's current predicament and capitalize on the massive exodus taking place right now. Truth be known, I'd much prefer to buy from somebody registered here than from an unknown on eBay anyway.
One question, why would anyone want a buyer to pay any fee to bid? Wouldn't that drive buyers to sites that don't charge buyers as well as to online stores with set prices and local retail establishments? Seems counter productive to charge a buyer.
editing for clarification as well as to add I'd prefer it if we all used our same user names on a sister auction site.
I'm loving this discussion, but I'm not loving the load time and I even have cable internet. Can we start a new thread or does Dave want to keep this all in one spot?
I hate the feedback as it is now on ebay. They are going to change it I belive. Here is for the power sellers which I am.
PowerSeller Rewards & Standards
We're taking steps to give new meaning to PowerSeller status on eBay. Starting July, a score of 4.5 or more on all DSRs (based on the last 12 months) will be required for membership in the PowerSeller program. We will reward PowerSellers with fee discounts and other benefits for their record of excellent customer service.
PowerSeller discounts on Final Value Fees (or Transaction Services Fees)
DSRs of 4.6 or more (based on the last 30 days): 5% Final Value Fee discount
DSRs of 4.8 or more (based on the last 30 days): 15% Final Value Fee discount
Expanded seller protection from PayPal beginning February 2008
Protection for any shipping address, not just a confirmed address
Unlimited annual coverage, not just $5,000 per year
Global coverage, extended to 190 countries around the world
Okay, I've been reading this thread forever, very long winded. But I think this is a great idea if DG approves the sellers, that way no big business people get in it and knocks us little folks out.
I do think we need to leave feedback, we are big boys and girls and I think we can handle any feedback that it left. If our plants and or products are of good quality what do we have to worry about.
I think the DG members do need to use their names they have now, that way buyers will know how long we have been with DG.
I think the biggest thing is to approve sellers.
Count me in.
I have had horrible luck with ebay. Not a single plant I purchased ever made it in my yard. Never. Nadda one. And I ordered over 30 before I called it quits. I also had terrible luck with seeds I purchased on ebay. Though I know we have some marvelous and reputable folks here on DG that sell their plants and seeds on ebay. I just haven't bought any since joining DG! The generosity and kindness here have more than filled my wildest plant desires for trades, group swaps, co-ops, or SASBE. Most all of the plants that I have received from folks here on DG have thrived in my yard. As have their seeds! Why would I want an auction here? I get most everything here for free/postage or at a very very big discount (co-ops).
I doubt I would use it. (But I could be wrong and eat my own words.)
I think it would be a great idea and even for the typical gardener that just had a few extra plants to sell. I think it would be more for folks that had allot to sell but can be a benefit to all. I've had a scfi store when Dave offered them and loved it, then went from that to a site and domain of my own and it's expensive. This year I decided to let it go and not do the site because of the cost and time involved. I think all of us that have traded much etc know it's time consuming to pack plants and the postage now is outrageous. Then the fees from where you list it to sell like ebay etc, the paypal charges etc. It would be wonderful to have a auction system that was affordable.
Very interesting idea, especially if plant, etc. offerings could be separated into categories such as rare plants, seedlings, seeds, hardy perennials, tropical, or whatever. One doesn't want to have to plow through tons of unwanted stuff to find that special book or plant.
I agree wholeheartedly with Drapelady in that this endeavor should be kept as simple and kindly as possible. In my book, that means as unlike Ebay as possible.
I think sales should be at one's own risk. Most plantsmen I've know, and that is quite a few, are trusting and trustworthy.
Feedback on ebay has been ridiculous. Over 12 years and around 1000 items, I have only rec'd two negatives...one from someone obviously mental and another from someone who allowed as she was mistaken and she got a retrieval of that negative. It really hurts me that I will never have 100 percent due to the first seller's negative.
I have been rooked financially on two items. One was far more damaged than described and the seller refused to communicate with me. I sent it back and was still not paid back, being told by ebay that my only recourse was small claims court. I live in NY and she in CA.
Another was a seller in the UK who claimed to have sent seeds I purchased. Never received. I am out a total of 400.
I have never given a deserved negative, fearing a vengeful one in return. The system is stupid(such superficial commentary), timeconsuming, etc.
Paypal is great but I can see why sellers dislike paying the fee. However, many obviously make it up in a handling or postage charge. Like drug companies, I don't think most people really lose money when they sell...smile.
I would love a venue for obtaining rare plants and selling some of my own or a friends.
I have only ad one classified ad and it was wonderful and get excited just thinking about sellers and buyers meeting up who might even know one another from DG.
Today a lady called and wanted to buy 12 african violets. This can get contagious as I stuck my money in a drawer to save for nationals when I get there! I never ever want my own site and i never ever will buy from the sellers on ebay.
I can't wait for this new project to really happen. Call if selfish but I am tired of packing for free to friends on DG. They offer but i always feel I am being tight about it if I don't pay for it myself.
Personally I rarely if ever find people that have plants I am looking for. I have most of the plants I have been after and I usually know the sources for the newest plants before they are on the market. So me trading plants has always been very difficult. Another thing is when you have plants like a Banana Ae Ae I find it more worth while to sell rather than trade. I have payed a lot for my plants and it takes a lot of money time and effort to keep them all happy.
I think trading is good but it usually only deals in easy to grow or propagate plants not with difficult and rare items. What really broke me was years ago when I gave friends and local people free banana plants. Almost every one killed the bananas by not bringing them in for winter. I found that once they pay money for the plant they tend to treat it a bit better or at least feel some stress from their wallet when it dies.
I think the auction site would help offer more of these rare or unusual plants to Daves gardeners.
No, no, Gail, I was talking about eBay, not trades on DG. And I usually do leave feedback for sellers, whether they ask for it or not. But... I've had several sellers who told me up front that they would not leave feedback for me until they see my feedback for them. When I hear that, it makes me wonder if they're using it for tit-for-tat.
I guess eBay is going to only feedback generated by the buyers. Isn't that what we already have on GW? The sellers get a rebuttal if they need one, but they don't rate the buyer. I love GW, and it seems like much more honest feedback to me.
