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One of the criticisms that ebay has always had is that sellers can punish buyers by threatening to leave them a negative if the buyer leaves a negative. This blackmail causes bad sellers to have a 95% rating. A bad seller should have a 25% rating, in my opinion. This is probably what motivated ebay to make this recent change to disallow sellers reviewing buyers. I think a possible workaround is: allow the two parties to rate each other, BUT keep those ratings secret from each other until both reviews are entered in. Then once they are entered, they are locked and cannot be changed.
This way it's more of a secret ballot, and you can leave a review without fear of reprisal.
So, it would work like this:
Seller sells item to buyer.
Buyer leaves feedback, and the system tells the seller "buyer has left feedback. Please make sure to also leave feedback!". Once the seller leaves the feedback, then both parties can then read the feedback left.
So, that's a lot to think about... what do ya'll think?
I think that each party should have an opportunity to post a rebuttal to feedback that was left for them, there's always two sides to every story. I've seen a number of cases in Garden Watchdog where someone left bad feedback for a seller, but it was pretty obvious that it was the buyer who was being unreasonable, and I feel that sellers ought to have the right to defend themselves (and vice versa for buyers too if a seller leaves them bad feedback that's completely undeserved). This wouldn't change the original rating, but could give people who come later to view the feedback an opportunity to see both sides of the story
I also think there should be a plan in place for sellers who might choose not to leave feedback for a buyer--I've bought a few things on Ebay and in at least one case the seller never bothered to leave feedback for me. The way I'm picturing the secret ballot, the buyer's feedback wouldn't be publicly viewable until after the seller has also left feedback, so if the seller never leaves feedback for the buyer, then that rating stays secret forever (and especially if the seller has messed up and thinks the buyer will be leaving them bad feedback, I could see them never taking the time to post their half of the feedback!). So I think the seller ought to have some time limit to post a rating for the buyer, if they don't do it within the time limit then the buyer's feedback on them becomes public, and they lose their ability to post a negative review for that buyer.
I like ecrane's idea of a time limit for the seller to leave feedback, and if not, then the buyer's feedback goes public.
I think any rebuttals should be limited to negative feedback though. Too often I've seen space taken up on eBay by postive feedback garnering a "thank you" type rebuttal that's distracting. Maybe they don't do that anymore, as I haven't bought there in a couple of years. Just a thought.
I love dave's idea, and think it would go miles toward eliminating feedback blackmail. The best ideas are simple.
The new feedback change is one area I agree with on Ebay.
We're vendors, sellers, merchants, whatever you want to call us. Give the consumers an unhindered voice, and the cream will rise to the top.
Consumers have multiple outlets, in multiple trades, to voice their opinion on merchants, with little to no recourse from the vendors. Keep it that way. A shopper can rate brick and mortar stores all day long without worrying about being blocked or banned. Brick and mortar stores don't care because either their service is so good, or their prices so low.
Take note of that Ebay change. Build a market place that consumers feel safe all the way around, and good vendors will prosper.
I recently had someone leave me positive feedback, but in the comment she wrote that I was slow to ship. Excuse me? She paid on a Saturday afternoon. I shipped it Monday morning. I always send an e-mail to the buyer advising when it will be shipped and include the tracking number. I sent her a polite note asking why she said I was slow to ship. Her reply was that an item she had paid for at the same time arrived sooner. So now I'm responsible for how far or how long it travels with the USPS?
If you give all the advantage to the buyers in feedback, then sellers need to have a BBL (Blocked Bidder/Buyer List) like eBay sellers have. I have read that the "average" BBL has 1000 IDs on it. Mine is much shorter (probably 50-60).
eBay's "excuse" for making it so neutral or negative feedback cannot be left for a buyer is based on the premise that sellers leave negative feedback far more often than buyers do. Apparently, they did not take into consideration the reasons for the negative feedback -- which is probably because of non-paying bidder/buyers and has little to do with retaliation. I have had to file NPB (non-paying bidder/buyer) on four buyers (total of 18 items) in the last two weeks. This was after repeated e-mails with no response from the buyer, sending several invoices, and waiting two-three weeks for my money before filing. Most sellers file negative feedback on NPBs. I do not. I have never left negative feedback, and I've had several looney/bogus complaints.
I'd like to see a system where sellers are required to leave feedback for buyers BEFORE any positive buyer feedback will be accepted into the system. I have both bought and sold on eBay, and I feel strongly that feedback should be provided as soon as a party has completed their end of the auction agreement. In other words, as soon as the buyer has submitted confirmed payment that has been accepted by the seller, the buyer has completed their auction obligation and should receive appropriate feedback from the seller. Conversely, if a seller is foolhardy enough to ship the item before receiving confirmed payment, then the buyer should submit appropriate feedback as soon as the item has been received.
As a seller and as a buyer, I simply don't feel it's fair to expect the buyer to show good faith both by submitting payment before receiving goods AND then to submit positive feedback to a seller who hasn't even had the decency to acknowledge prompt payment by submitting feedback first. Sellers should be required to demonstrate the same good faith and trust as is required of buyers by submitting feedback for their buyers as soon as confirmed payment has been received. I certainly show my buyers that courtesy.
If there were some way to incorporate a fair sequence of seller/buyer feedback submission into the "secret ballot" concept, perhaps both issues could be addressed equitably and simultaneously.
Poetry, Dave. A simple solution.
I'm worried. If this gets around, the eBay police might snatch you in guise of night, offer you millions and we'll lose you. LOL!!!
I have seen many times with feedback where another seller has friends leave feedback against a seller just to watch the rating go down.
How about work with daves idea but a 1-5 ratio for example to start. See how it goes. We have read many Garden Watchdog comments left for sellers and they are pretty rough. Some get so far off track that the reason they are leaving fb is no longer the reason for leaving remarks about the product. I know they are monitored but the get pretty intense. One experience shouldnt affect what 100's of others have not felt. You cannot please everyone but certainly can give it your best shot.
I live on this computer and in fact for well over 10 years now with the public and now at my website. we answer within the hour most of the time either by Bobby or I. I am up all hours of the night preparing for the next day and you will get a feedback that will state for example" no emails returned ect..." when in fact all emails are responded to, you forward the saved emails to the customers and the ebay log of emails and they still insist they are correct. I log all comments on my experience with my customers, invoice, planting instructions emailed, payment received email, personal email from my email address and as well notification of shipment with planting instructions again. Enclosed in the package a third set of planting instructions then they leave you a bad comment "no planting instructions".
Yes, on ebay it is happening everyday to alot of good sellers. It should be set up possibly (ex: excellent, satisfied, good, ok, poor) That might eliminate the harsh unkind words. We probably wont have as many problems on DG as all are so wonderful and pleasant to work with so far and I thoroughly enjoy DG but there will be of course a few that come along that may cause a problem. Ratio, simple comments to start would be great.
I am already beginning to sense a feeling of ebay which I don't want. Just because someone leaves a seller a slow shipping remark which wasn't true,you refuse to ship to that person. This is entirely too petty for me. I got reamed out by a seller on ebay and I never went back to ebay.
I like Buried Treasure's attitude that the cream will rise to the top anyway. So give the consumer a chance to rate in some way the seller and if the seller wants a rebuttal, so be it.
I am begging you not to give sellers the power they had for a long time on ebay.
Sellers are the ones who have to have thick skin...not the buyers...if you want this idea to work...
The more I think about Dave's "secret ballot" idea, the more I like it. It shouldn't be predicated on a specific auction partner leaving feedback first, though. The first feedback left on a transaction, either seller's or buyer's, should trigger the system to alert the recipient of the initial feedback that, "Feedback has been submitted for you on auction #________. Please make sure to also leave feedback!" It is then up to the initial feedback recipient to decide whether or not (s)he wants to receive his/her feedback by reciprocating with feedback of their own. If not, then no feedback is registered for either party. If so, then feedback is registered for both.
I do think it's also very important to have something in place that allows feedback to be rebutted, removed, or edited by the system administrators or by mutual consent of both auction parties if a feedback dispute is made.
I do feel that feedback needs to become public eventually even if it's not reciprocated. Otherwise if you never make the feedback public until both parties have left feedback, this gives bad buyers and sellers an easy way out of having their badness made public. All they have to do is never leave feedback for the other party, and then nobody will ever know what happened. That's why I suggested the idea of time limits, if they don't respond within the time limit then the half of the feedback that's there goes public, and the person who didn't leave the feedback loses the power to leave negative feedback in retaliation. However, if the seller is the first one to leave feedback, I would give the buyer a longer time limit to respond--we need to make sure that they've had time to receive the item before expecting them to leave feedback.
I am not sure this is the right thread to bring this up but I have a question.
I don't sell plants for a living like some people do. I am meaning they may not even grow them personally. They just wholesale them in and resell which is fine. That means they will have speedier methods of getting the material out to buyers.
Many of us are not set up for being professionals. We spend most of our time working on our plants and propagating. We just want to offer plants or leaves for sell and probably will be slower getting them out to people. Is there some feature where people can tell that we are not professionals and will get the plants in the mail as soon as possible. I don't want buyers to have expectations that i cannot meet as a hobby grower. If we don't have this avenue to tell people then I am setting myself up for failure.
You can put that all in your description when you list. Many small sellers on eBay do that and it doesn't seem to be a problem with buyers when they know what to expect.
Sorry, ecrane3, I forgot about your time limit suggestion, which I think is a very good one. Feedback should be made public, and the non-responding auction partner banned from leaving neutral or negative feedback, if reciprocal feedback isn't left within an established time limit. You also make an important point about making the time limit long enough (30 days, perhaps) to allow the buyer enough time to receive and evaluate the auction item before leaving feedback.
I am curious in the aspect of how long a buyer will have before leaving feedback. As a seller I leave feedback as soon as I recieve payment. However since I sell bearded irises usually starting in March,my digging and shipping starts in July. So naturally feedback for me will not be left(unless its from repeat buyer the year before)until they recieve their plants. So will there be a cutoff date for feedback from the time the transaction happens?
Dora
Dave...I like what you are proposing on the feedback. If a seller gets a notice that feedback has been left then I won't be wasting my time leaving feedback for those who don't.
I am one that hates eBays feedback system. I used to leave feedback as soon as I got payment and then found I was spending a lot of time leaving feedback and my buyers wasn't so I started waiting on the buyers to send theirs first. I was accused once of holding a buyers feedback hostage!
I am not ashamed of any plants or seeds that I send out and describe it in my auctions as to what I see. After it leaves my hands I cannot be responsible for what the post office does. We wrap and secure the plants the best we know how. Out of over 2800 transactions on eBay I have 3 negatives and consider only one of them kind of my fault. With that one water was leaking from the package. The PO called me and I could not go pick it up at the time. I found out after I got the negative the PO had opened it and took out our damp towels and by the time it got to Arizona the plant was dried up. Buyer did not bother to contact me first before leaving a negative.
Another one was from a buyer I had turned in after asking for payment for 3 weeks. She was a seller too and had a Paypal account. She ignored all my emails for payment and I had already received my FVF back from eBay when she finally mailed me a check so I wrote void on the check and mailed it back to her. Still didn't keep her from leaving a negative. (All during this time she was selling and making money on eBay)
My latest negative came from someone who claimed they never received the plant. We send all of our plants with delivery confirmation. The plant was delivered. I can only go by the info I have. If they had been nicer about the situation I would have tried to replace it and only charged them shipping. They did not even want to do that. They turned me in to eBay, Square Trade and Paypal. When I asked eBay to remove the negative they wanted $20.00 for me to hire a mediator. I have never heard from Square Trade and Paypal sent me a email saying no action was taken because I had proof of delivery.
Neutrals were due to broken plants. I certainly don't ship broken plants. I think things like this should be able to be removed without charging to do so.
Dave, perhaps in the auction submission form, you can have a checkbox for sellers who won't be shipping their plants until after the 30 day feedback time limit. The checkbox would then disengage the feedback time limit for that specific auction, allowing the buyer to wait until after receipt of the auction item before leaving their end of the feedback.
Karen is right. If you sum up your bylaws for shipping and responsibility, your return policy (if any), seller's responsibilities and buyer's responsibilities, and post it in every ad - you're off to a good start. Before any funds change hands, the customer is informed as to what you will and will not do. You must make it clear that once the package leaves your hands, you are not responsible for mishandled or damaged merchandise. It doesn't hurt to ask for a photo. You can pretty well assess what took place when the plant was damaged. Some folks get a little itchy to get through the packaging, and inadvertently damage the plant. Whenever you receive a plant - take it slooowwww. :-)
Also, if you want to make life easier, include planting instructions in your ad. It saves problems with folks who might claim they didn't get planting instructions, and gives you one less repetitious job to perform.
it is my job to include planting instructions??????? Why can't the buyer look it up? All I do is grow them and each gesneriad, for example, has different requirements for growing. That is asking a lot of me to have cultural care for each plant. I might just refer to Rob's Violet Barn. He has taken a lot of time to carefully print out all requirements of each gesneriad.
I have bought many times from ebay and one of my pet peeves is when a seller does not leave feedback or waits until AFTER I have left feedback on them. I think that is wrong, once I pay they should post their feedback on me, and what they say about me should not have anything to do with what I say about them. So I really like the idea of the secret ballot and I especially like ecranes idea about the time limit for a seller to post and then once the time expires and the buyers feedback is posted, they are out of luck. And vice versa.
one other thing, Dave you said "Buyer leaves feedback, and the system tells the seller "buyer has left feedback. Please make sure to also leave feedback!". Once the seller leaves the feedback, then both parties can then read the feedback left."
I think it should be the other way around, SELLER leaves feedback, and the system tells the BUYER "seller has left feedback. Please make sure to also leave feedback!"
The seller feedback should be on buyers performance and that really ends with payment so therefore, they should be posting feedback first. That is my opinion anyway.
On a good/normal transaction (on eBay), it is true that the buyer's performance ends with payment. On a bad transaction, though, that isn't necessarily true. If a seller leaves feedback and then the buyer falsely claims he didn't get the merchandise, or claims the merchandise is broken but refuses to take a picture or send it back, or... If the seller has already left feedback, they have no recourse. So some sellers wait until everything is done and they are sure the buyer is content before they leave feedback for the entire transaction. I don't think that is unreasonable.
I won't use the system if the sellers have all the advantages and I WANT to be a seller, but I despise the ebay system with the sellers having all the power! Once again ...to reiterate what Buried Treasure (Chris) said...the cream rises to the top if the sellers don't have the power to promote themselves and tear other people down. Plants pretty much speak for themselves.
When I receive payment, I leave feedback. Whatever comes of the sale, I have buttoned it up at my end. If the buyer has a problem, they can contact me and we'll hash it out. I send gentle reminders if payment is late, or offer to cancel the sale if they've changed their mind or selected the item in error.
I can't say I've had more than a dozen of these. I and the customer found simple solutions. And that's after about 4,000 transactions.Sellers should also have the option of blocking individuals from purchasing if they have a history of disruption.
I think we should be a little more optimistic about the environment here as opposed to eBay.
I agree Gordo. Ours is truly a kinder gentler category than many others on Ebay.
I don't leave feedback immediately, but not because I'm waiting for the buyer to do so. I leave it twice a month in bulk uploads. It's more efficient for us, and efficiency is how we keep prices down.
Also, regarding checks, we don't even hold them. We ship as soon as they come in. In 6 years we've had 3 whole checks bounce, and two of them took care of it.
It's going to be hard to please all parties, as you'll have B2C, B2B, and C2C transactions. Each will have a different dynamic, though many consumers expect them all to be equal, when they're not. I cut a lot more slack to the hobbiest that's sharing the wealth, than someone that makes their living doing this.
I'm sure whatever is presented will have a tweaking period, but the coolest part is that we all get to be involved in something that can be truly groundbreaking. With the backing of NamesMedia, and Daves
can-do commitment to quality, I think DG really has a chance at taking a bite out of Ebay's Home and Garden Category. It won't happen overnight, but I'm certainly thrilled to be a part of it.
I believe we need a "block bidder"system in place.All of us who sell regularly have a list of people we would not like to deal with.This can include non paying buyers,known crooks,unreasonable customers and just general jerks.I have about a dozen, or so,on my Ebay list and absolutely will not deal with them there or here.example...I sold a packet of seed last fall...4.95...I included extra seed in the packet AND an extra packet of quality hybrids.The buyer emailed me that 4 of his seed were empty.Understand here that he already had about 25 extras.I sent him exactly 4 seed and added him to the list.I then checked his feedback and found that he made a regular practice of getting something for nothing or leaving negative feedback.This one sided feedback system will leave us wide open to this sort of thing.How many of this type would it take to make a regular seller seek greener pastures.This was one of my main gripes against Ebays new system.
We all have horror stories, but what percentage of your customer base does it represent? I can think of about a dozen unreasonable customers out of more than 4500. That represents 3/10ths of one percent. While working with them, it stung, and ended up with what I fealt was unjustified feedback.
If being unable to leave negative feedback for them, means other BUYERS, will feel they are better protected, and the venue a safer place to shop without fear of retaliaion, then I'm all for it.
All sellers want more buyers, and all buyers want a safe and secure place to shop. I'll take 4500 more buyers all day long even if it means I have to work with a dozen more unreasonable customers.
The Garden Watchdog model works, and works well. I've been on both sides of it. Let the consumer have their voice, but of course give the seller some ability to respond.
I have read on this thread things like "once the plants leave here, it is not my problem' (or in essence the same message)...I am hoping for a friendlier place that Chris, Gordo and others envision. I ordered 300.00 from Lyndon Lyons and didn't specify UPS or USPS. They arrived through UPS and sat in the sun until they were all dead. Lyndon Lyons won my heart and future pocketbook when they replaced at least half of the plants with no fuss or bother.
Furthermore we don't need a 'block bidder' anything. We are not and don't want to be an ebay . That is why I never shopped there...respect, trust and pride in our plants and fellow DGers (for the time being anyway) should be the most important considerations in our decisions as sellers. (not dwelling on how someone else is going to get the better deal)
As buyers, we have the ability to choose not to do business with a seller who has treated us badly, why shouldn't sellers have the same ability to not do business with buyers who've treated them badly? Even within our community here, we've had co-ops and trades gone bad, so I'm sure there'll be a few auctions that go bad too. Some people are very good, nice people and have the best intentions but are just unreliable when it comes to money. So if someone has a track record of being unreliable with payments, then in my mind the sellers have a right to choose not to do business with them. And there'll be outside people who are able to sign up and may not really become part of the community here but just sign up to participate in the auctions. I'm sure you'll run into some bad apples there, maybe some people there who aren't even nice people with good intentions, and the sellers absolutely should have the ability to block them and not do business with them.
I am already beginning to sense a feeling of ebay which I don't want. Just because someone leaves a seller a slow shipping remark which wasn't true,you refuse to ship to that person. This is entirely too petty for me. I got reamed out by a seller on ebay and I never went back to ebay.
I like Buried Treasure's attitude that the cream will rise to the top anyway. So give the consumer a chance to rate in some way the seller and if the seller wants a rebuttal, so be it.
I am begging you not to give sellers the power they had for a long time on ebay.
Sellers are the ones who have to have thick skin...not the buyers...if you want this idea to work...
I'm sort of feeling the same way. I know I don't like the idea of the secret ballot feedback. If a seller knows he/she might have a cause for concern, he/she will simply not leave feedback and then the buyer's will not be able to leave feedback that will be seen by those who are attempting to make an educated decision as to whether they should place a bid or not on an item offered by a particular seller.
Perhaps it is best to seriously consider taking the route of eBay and so many other online auctions where feedback is only able to be left for sellers. Let the cream rise to the top by this means. Amazon, which is already linked here, seems to do just fine and I bet their overhead costs by disallowing mutual feedback have been kept at bay over the years.
Also too, I strongly believe there should be a total number of transactions listed for both buyers and sellers.
I, like a lot of gardeners, buy an incredible amount of plants online annually. Local nurseries rarely have what I want. I'd really love for this new online DG auction site to meet my needs as a buyer so I can feel as safe as possible when making online bids.
I have a different take on the mutual feedback issue because as a buyer I WANT the feedback from my sellers. Until last year, I never sold anything on eBay, but I had done a reasonable amount of purchasing over the years. As a result of my previous activity as a buyer, I already had a 100% positive feedback score before I started to sell. Trust me, that HELPS when trying to establish a reliable reputation as a new seller.
I want the sellers to be able to leave feedback for the buyers because I want all the positive feedback I can get for my own feedback score!
Would there be a way to 'hold' negative feed back either way? Something like, if a participant clicks on the negative feedback option, a message would come up asking the person to send a message through the Dave's system (NOT via private email) outlining the problem? Then, if the problem wasn't resolved go ahead and allow the negative?
I am not sure if this makes sense, but I did comment earlier that feedback needs mediation.
I currently have over 500 positive seller feedback on my Ebay account. I knock myself out to please. I stew over email complaints and have fumed over two neutral feedbacks. My entire career was based on customer service and that gave me a good platform on which to grow a little home business. If someone has left their plant at the Post Office for a week or if it sat on a hot sunny doorstep all day (I don't know anyone who would ship a dead plant.), I offer replacement plants shipped at customer's expense or surface without pots as if it were my fault.
I base my activity on the customer's expectations. I have been a customer too so I know what to expect. Communication is also a key - describe your product explicitly, no vague "come on" descriptions like "it variegated" when it's not. People also want to see a photograph of the plant and if you're using your own pretty pot or beaded macrame pot holder to display it, say pot is not included or they want that too.
There are unscrupulous sellers on Ebay who are deceptive and careless and deserve the negatives. These people are often terminated from the Ebay system. I am looking forward to a friendly experience here.
You are always going to find someone who is just hard to please. It's like my husband says, "when you buy a new car, you might as well just go ahead and put a key to it and get it over with."
I guess I posted in the wrong thread... but, by making feedback contingent on anything other than the transaction, feedback won't be useful.
As a buyer, if I pay for my auction within minutes, I have completed my end of the 'deal' but more often than not, I get an email from the seller saying "Thanks for your prompt payment, when your merchandise arrives, be sure to leave me positive feedback and I'll do the same for you."
MANY sellers use feedback as a weapon... and buyers like me won't leave a negative (even if it took them a month to ship a non perishable non plant item) because if I do, then I'm going to get negative feedback too, even though the seller got my money probably before he/she even knew the item sold.
There should be a way for feedback to be just that... feedback. If a seller has a good idea that the customer isn't going to be happy whether that is because the person has contacted them with their displeasure, or because they know they were slow on shipping, then they just won't leave feedback period. By having one feedback contingent on the other, you're not going to have accurate feedback.
Same is going to hold true if it's secret ballot feedback--if a seller KNOWS they were slow to ship, or they sent something they probably shouldn't have... they just won't leave feedback, so the system won't activate so feedback is going to be skewed, just like it is on ebay.
I'm a buyer, I pay for my auctions IMMEDIATELY. THAT is what my feedback should be about, not contingent on whether I liked my purchase, and most definitely not that I left the seller positive feedback first.
You NEED to draw in BUYERS so that the sellers have some reason to be here... and if the feedback system is identical to ebays, meaning favoring the seller, then why should I buy here instead of Ebay?
If you're going to have lower fees than ebay, lower final value fees than ebay, you're going to draw a lot of ebay sellers here... while the folks who are members here, are ethical sellers, there are a lot of ebay sellers who are not, and those folks will eventually be here too, and eventually, in much greater numbers than Dave's Garden sellers... If they are allowed to use feedback as leaverage, they will, just like they do at ebay.
What about the option of ONLY allowing negative feedback, and all negative feedback reviewed before it is visible? Unreasonable negative feedback could be weeded out and not allowed to post in the system. You could also have a box that they/we have to check,like, "have you contacted the seller about the problem" and if ample time has passed, most likely the seller isn't interested in fixing the problem, so the negative feedback should be applied.
If, as a buyer, I've paid for an auction, and a month passes, and I still haven't received my merchandise, or I have it and is not what it was supposed to be, and I've contacted the seller and they ignore me, I think it's reasonable for negative feedback to be assessed.
As a seller, if I have not received my money, and a month has passed, then it's reasonable for negative to be left. Just throwing out time frames in general here, not actual ones.
Once either buyer or seller feedback (negative) is left on a transaction, the other party can not leave additional (retalitory) feedback.
By doing it that way, the bad buyers AND the bad sellers would be weeded out fairly quickly.
The only downside, if you could call it that, is everyone is on an even playing field until they screw up... but, a potential buyer or seller would see and read the negative feedback, and decide for themselves if they want to do business with that person.
By allowing ONLY negative, I think you'd have less policing to do... and "power sellers" would have one less thing they had to worry about as far as managing their auctions. Buyers who tend to be slow in getting their money orders out might be a little more prompt if they know they're going to receive a negative strike if the money is not there in a reasonable (preset) amount of time. Same with sellers, if the only feedback they can get is negative, potential bad sellers might think twice before signing on here... and the good sellers can just continue to do business as usual because it won't affect them at all.
edited to make the entire last half of post not bold!
Smart husband. Smart wife. You have a lovely family and I've never even met you...
Folks, these are the kind of sellers you want to do business with. And feedback IS an indicator of the kind of person you're dealing with.
I too have 100% feedback after about 4,000 transactions...a miracle.
Here in Florida, the elements tear you up. If its not blistering sun, its pounding rain. It's dragging hoses around, getting into debt, getting out of debt, backaches, toting cement blocks and bags of soil and fertilizer, hybridizing, coding for the website, working the 16 hour day sometimes...I do it because, I like the idea of a smile when the box is opened. If someone contacts me with photos of a box mashed to nothing and a plant in need of last rites...I am really steamed. Both the buyer AND I have been affronted with gross carelessness. My sweat equity has been flushed, and the buyers hopes have been dashed. That's the way it is with me.
So, take heart. I've had similar woes dealing with sellers who send plants that belong in a M.A.S.H. unit, but I've also received beautifully wrapped, healthy plants that say, "Hey Baby, I'm here and ready to grow." I've continued to shop with the sellers of wonderful plants and I've stopped buying from the guys who send the wheezing, night of the living dead stuff. I expect members here will do the same.
The pivotal factor here is negotiation. When things go awry on occasion, a neutral mediator is essential. I've seen this at work here on the discussion forums. I am fully confident that whatever system evolves, once the bugs are ironed out, Dave and the staff will bring the peace, bandage the wounded and pitch out the rabble-rousers. Who of us wants thugs reeling around our cyber-town punching citizens in the nose?
What an adventure! This may be the best thing for gardeners since the Dave's Garden hub itself.
I have a different take on the mutual feedback issue because as a buyer I WANT the feedback from my sellers.
As a buyer I don't believe I need feedback and like so many others, definitely don't want any form of feedback that could be held over my head... until a seller gets a chance to see what a buyer has left for them. By the time someone bids on a lot, they should have read the listing in its entirety and any questions should have been asked of the buyer to be ironed out before that first bid is placed. If a listing doesn't state that delivery confirmation is included, I used to contact sellers specifically to ask if they would be able to add it if I remitted an additional $1. If a listing stated $12 for shipping and handling, I didn't assume the seller was shipping USPS Priority in favor of asking before I placed a bid. Who wants to buy a book on gardening that they want to read right now only to receive that book via media mail several weeks later with a $3.90 label on it after they paid $12? We bidders need to ask these questions before we place that first bid not after. Simple enough. Regarding payment, I long ago learned it was in my best interests to only tender payment via an electronic transmission. I never bid on any auctions that did not offer an electronic form of payment. Kept it simple for me. I always had a record of exactly when I paid. Buyers don't need sellers telling the world they left a lightening fast payment. Those who pay electronically will always have a paper trail of the payment.
I really like the idea of having a "have you contacted the other party about this problem" checkbox when filling out negative feedback. I am also more and more drawn to the idea of having pull-down options for feedback comments instead of being able to put in your own comments in the height of your emotions. I think that would cut down on potential ugliness.
I don't like (actually, I HATE) the power struggle that feedback has turned into on eBay. I think if the dispute resolution process is easier (in other words it is easy to find, it actually gets a real response, and it is handled promptly, none of which is true on eBay), Dave's feedback system can be what it is supposed to be: feedback. period.
When I sell stuff on eBay, I usually give feedback to our buyers as soon as I actually ship the merchandise. Usually. There have been a few times when the buyer has already been difficult, or have taken a long time to pay, or have just made me feel uncertain, when I have waited until they have actually gotten the package and have had time to react to what they have found. I don't wait for their feedback, necessarily, (and I never send an "I'll leave you feedback as soon as you leave me feedback" notes!) but I do wait for them to have time to do whatever they are going to do in response to the merchandise. We work very hard at making our customers happy, and so far that has worked. :-) We've only had one neutral (a lady bought a pair of brand name capris and left us a neutral because they were too big for her) and no negatives at all. I've only left negatives for non-paying bidders, but I have left gentle remonstrations in my feedback comments (eg., "Thank you. It would be easier to wait for your payment if you would email.")
I do block buyers that I have had trouble with once, but I certainly don't have thousands of blocked bidders. More like 6. Of course, I've only had five hundred or so transactions. We are not power sellers. :-)
I like the star system on GWD better than just offering positive, neutral, and negative, and I actually like eBay's new break-out system for their feedback. I think that gives a lot more information to potential buyers. I love leaving positive feedback for our good buyers - and 98% of them are good. I expect that percentage to go up in here. :-)
You all can figure this out and I will see if it is worth my while to sell. As to the reference made to me about UPS leaving a box in the sun when the heat index was 106 that day and I wasn't home, please know that I didn't feel like it was my responsibility when the seller had not even notified me that it was coming ( let alone by UPS)by UPS. Any vendor knows you don't ship UPS in an area where the temps are this high. You have to ship through the post office and that is why Paul Sorano did right by me with my order to Lyndon Lyons.
This is turning into a bragging rights forum for having so many positive feedbacks...I think I am able to get along with my buyers and don't need all this fuss over feedback scores . There will be mistakes made...no doubt...so what? Can't we trust one another to get it worked out?
I don't think anyone is meaning to brag, gessiegail. I mentioned my feedback to establish credibility, to show that I have sold and I do know what I am talking about, and I have a good standing. Customer service is very important to me. I hope that makes sense. I am in no way implying that anyone who hasn't mentioned their feedback or whatever may not know what they are talking about, or needs to bring it up, too. It just seem appropriate at the time to mention it in my post. I'm sorry if it bothered you.
We are hoping and expecting to be able to trust each other, but situations arise and people fail to do what they promised to do. A means of resolution needs to be put in place ahead of time for that.
I am not acting very nice, Marylyn! I think I am just frustrated as I really want to sell and don't know how to do this. For example, I have maybe 50 4" pots of hoyas rooted for over a year and would like to sell them. How do you, for example, offer all these for auction (remembering that I can have a picture for each one but no one agrees on the names for hoyas so wouldn't have anything but a picture of each to show)...
How is this for being rude to you and then asking for your help. Sorry about that!
gail
PS I can be very impatient so please forgive me.
*******edited to say I just want to sell them all to the same person since I don't know names...
And, like I said, as this grows, there will eventually be more sellers who are NOT from DG as there are from DG. While we have ethical sellers, something needs to be there to deter the unethical sellers, and the sooner it's implemented, the better IMO.
(((((((((((Gail))))))))))))) (That was a hug.) I wasn't offended. I just wanted to make sure you weren't. :-)
Once Dave gets the auction up and running I would love to help you write descriptions and etc for your hoyas. Really! (Not that I know anything about hoyas except I think they're beautiful.) We'll get you set up and running. :-)
People want a safe environment in which to buy and this site is going to be open to both subscribers and non-subscribers alike. Appears sellers and buyers may have the option of choosing a user name other than that which they regularly use to post in the threads. All sellers of a plant we want on the other end of the offer may not be somebody we know and trust from here. Sooner or later this new site is going to attract former eBay sellers who were booted. Additionally, I have no doubt this new site will attract its fair share of seasoned veterans of internet sales who know all the ins and outs of protecting their feedback at the expense of others all so they can make a buck. We really may not have any idea who is on the other end out the gate and unless the feedback issue is addressed to the degree that it becomes a viable tool that bidders can reliably depend upon, we may never be able to get an idea of how sellers fulfill their end of a deal. Given the disproportionately high numbers of people who were dissatisfied with eBay's feedback system and given eBay finally took action, I suspect people who have the money to be bidding will simply revert back to eBay over time now that they've leveled the playing field. Sellers will go where the buyers are. This is coming down to potential buyers being sincerely concerned about using their hard earned money to be able to bid without having a reliable form of feedback by which to gauge a seller.
I reserved trust for eBay sellers with whom I had positive experiences and always left appropriate feedback for them AFTER they had left it for me. Because of that blackmail component referenced when this thread was started, I wouldn't even consider leaving a neutral let alone a negative feedback for any sellers over at eBay lest I risk ending up in messy remediation that would cost me time and money all to be able to get rid of a retaliatory negative??? Trust me, I always had a paper trail and feel relatively confident I would have been in a position to eliminate any retaliatory feedback but there's that time element to factor in. Would it have been worth it for me to leave appropriate feedback to give others a heads up? Was it worth it for others to leave appropriate feedback for bum sellers? Nope and that's exactly why I stopped bidding at eBay. Let's say 1 out of every 50 of my high bids went south even though I paid within 24 hours of auction's end and addressed all concerns to my satisfaction directly with a seller before I bid. Now multiply me by all the others who were too intimidated to leave appropriate feedback due to the environment over there. We all need to do the math. That's an astronomical number of both negative and neutral feedback that was never left so what's the point of sellers from over there commenting about their feedback as I feel relatively confident we all knew how the game was played.
I spent a little bit over 5k for online temperate species of plants for my property last year with about another $1,000 or so for online orchids and carnivorous plants for inside my home and neither one of those figures includes $$$ I sent to Buried Treasures for a co-op. I'll be doing more restoration work in the future plus I do have this tropical plant addiction that needs to be fed so those numbers will probably remain about the same in the future. Although I'd do business with Buried Treasures again in a heart beat, I'd need to be afforded the luxury of knowing other sellers out there are in their league before I bid so I personally feel the need to have a reliable form of feedback. There are an incredible number of people out there like me who are darn right afraid of bidding because of the risk of losing money without having viable recourse. Really wish I had a money tree out back so I could afford to trust everyone and anyone who is going to be offering plants for sale at the new site. If I had that money tree out back I wouldn't have to worry about the reliability of feedback and could trust everyone and their brother. Unfortunately, no money tree out back so an appropriate feedback system devoid of the risk of retaliation really needs to be in place or buyers such as myself will simply walk or only bid on those lots being offered by somebody they already know and believe they can trust who is a subscriber such as a Marylyn_TX or a gessiegal.
Flexibility is the key. As I mentioned, I leave feedback as soon as, or shortly after I receive payment. If something goes wrong, well, you try to mediate a solution.
I'm starting to believe that a lot of people have PEBSD (Post eBay Stress disorder). I've been buying plants on line for years now and the joy has far outweighed the sorrow. I've also sold seeds to folks in Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Japan, and have the pleasant thought that new Amaryllis crosses from my little botanical garden are bringing pleasure to someone on the other side of the planet.
What eBay lacks is an oversoul...the sad result of it's immensity. I doubt that Dave is going to garner 220,000,000 souls hawking plants. In this case, a smaller, tighter ship should evidence itself in a humane and intelligent way over time.
I have a blast here, and I know others do too.
Don't worry so much about the feedback issue. The oversoul is there and willing to mediate or excise the discordant issues that may arise.
Think of it as Mayberry with it's own uniformed S.W.A.T. team... :-)
But this weighed into some of the comments I made because we have but only a handful of Admins who have lives outside of cyberspace and barring all else, they are not gods and can't be everywhere at once- http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=4508294
Best for everyone to share how they feel and why right now before the new site is launched as they are still actively soliciting our comments or they wouldn't be starting all these new threads.
Let there be a Dave's Auction...
Let it prosper amid the chaos...
Let it be adequately policed and a safe place to indulge one's plant addiction...
Let it be filled with the aching multitudes, yearning to breathe free...
Let it become a wallet filler as well as a wallet drainer...
Auction administration team now in formation!
:-)
Best wishes to all!!!
...and have a great gardening season!
a handful of Admins who have lives outside of cyberspace and barring all else, they are not gods and can't be everywhere at once-
NOOOO! Say it isn't so!!
Yes, and they do an excellent job when they are on here and let's hope that this new auction feature will not be an overwhelming task. As mentioned earlier, DG members are great supporters of this site and will help in curtailing/reporting any shenanigans as they crop up. The fairness of feedbacks and general goodness with DG gardening folks will make this work. The 'cream will rise to the top'!
Well, I didn't read every post here.. but a lot... and this is my idea.
I was a seller who always left positive feedback upon payment. There were a few "bad apples" that tainted my 100% rating... but I am not anticipating that here..
What if we just have one option.. Like Generic Feedback.. with no details as to not have any misinterpretation.. or personal opinions.. still being secret ballot until the transaction is complete.. Like the 5star thing ebay has that is not public..
Reasonable Shipping time..
Communication.
Representation.
Paid/Not paid..
etc..
??
These auction listings that have 200 paragraphs for terms and conditions.. and one sentence on description is just wrong.. LOL
I like the way Garden Watchdog works. I can see both good and bad comments. I can also see the sellers response to resolve the issue. I think that buyers are capable of judging whether a bad feedback is just a "picky, picky,picky" or a reasonable complaint. You can also see if a seller has been responsive and the buyer not willing to be satisfied. I do think a percentage is not a good idea!
I do Like GWD too, I like the fact that a buyer can come back and change their rating if the problem got resolved . I also really like to see the sellers response too.
Buyers can leave feedback for sellers, and the sellers have an opportunity to respond to that feedback. That's all that's needed.
Sellers don't check feedback until AFTER there's a problem, which means it's useless to sellers unless they want to retaliate for poor feedback left for them. This does not promote a healthy environment.
I like how Gordo has her policies. They neat, clean and simple and professional.
I hate when I buy something and spend good money only to get one of them, I got your money, but won't tell folks ya paid til you leave me good feedback. I will not buy from those people again no matter how good their product or how bad I want it. As a consumer that my choice not to buy again, and cuz that my biggest fit, I won't leave them feedback until they eventually do me , no matter how many emails they send me askign for it, before they will post mine. We all have pet things that tick us off and that is mine.
You could send me somethign all battered and beat up and I woudl still leave ya good feedback as long as ya had I paid on time first. That fact that you paid first and on time is kinda like a mini credit check even though it not good for anything right now. With the way the future in computers goes, who knows it may be worth somethign in the future. It also shows some dependability on my part so if i sell folks maybe won't be so afraid of me.
As a consumer, I have a responsibilty to be a good and fair consumer to the seller. A small time hobbist is not goign to have the small quality plants as a big commerical company. I do not expect the plants or seeds to look alike. Hopefully people when it comes to feedback will be responsible folk and only leave questionable or negative if it is solely deserved.
I like it when the sellers leave me feeback saying I paid on time. When i get my stuf f which usually is seeds, I may be a bit longer in leaving feedback, becuase I like to take some of the seeds and germinate them right away. it may take a week or two after I get my seeds before I post feedback.
I like to help good sellers out and little new sellers too, especially when the seeds from their gardens, that they seeds they selling are of good quality and germinated. I like for folsk to know the sellers have good product even though it not from a commercial company.
if somethign happens and the seeds don't germinate, I still leave postive feedback that I recieved all my stuff as advertized, just leave that extra part off.
If I order plants, I leave feeback right away. I leave good back unless the plant is dead, or reall sickley, and that not if it was left out in the sun on the porch. That my responsibilty to make sure my postman or truck driver knows where to put things. If it comes with a broken branch or something, and I se e it was packed good, that not the seller fault in my opinion, I cringe when i se e how the Po thows boxe son top of each other and the planes and such. They don't care.
If i have a problem and in alot of years have only had one real problem, and that was handled professionally by emails and corrected and positive feedback was left that just saying a problem had occurred and was handled in professional manner and left 100% feedback.
There an old saying about ya can't please all the people all the time. it always gonna be true, but if anybody cares abotu there business they each will handle in a good and satifying manner to their customers.
As for blocking buyers, maybe it could be done through asking permission first from Dave. I think their shoudl be a blocker, becuase of one time there was a shopper going around the auctions buying evrythign under the sun and bidding big and had everybody going in huge bid wars only to not buy or pay on any of them. It was a mess, and then all those sellers had to go back and try and offer the product and list it again all over to second chance people. I don't blame those sellers for blockign those kind of people. That lost time effort and money and I felt bad for those folks.
At some point, we have to keep it simple I do believe...this has been discussed so much and I think most people are in agreement...a simple feedback by buyer and seller like it is done on Garden Watchdog...then others who subscribe can see what is being said.
I agree Equil. I think if Dave did an "alert" or link on the home page like he did with the National Convention thing we'd probably see a lot more comments from potential buyers.
I think a good topic for discussion would be,
Why should I, as a buyer, buy here instead of at Ebay?
There is a link on the home page. He put it up there a couple of days ago. :-) I nominate Melissa to start a thread here asking what buyers would like to buy. All in favor, say aye!
Melissa... I suppose my answer would be - Because gardeners are tenders of the earth, a gentle breed at heart, and I enjoy being among like kind. Human frailty not withstanding, gardeners understand the cycle of life better than many and look to it for consolations that elude them in societies everywhere. This fact is the beginning of the many objections they have to a place of commerce being established in their midst.
They still need supplies for their pursuits, and they will buy them. Whether they buy from a friend, a neighbor, the local home improvement center, or eBay...they will buy supplies. How much better is it to support, in some way, the pursuits of a fellow gardener? In buying from a pal, you don't put eggs on the table of someone who prefers caviar to eggs. You put them on the table of someone who enjoys eggs, understands their value as a nutritional source, and perhaps, could not afford them if you didn't purchase a few packs of seed from them. Gardeners need nourishment, shelter, a way to bring their individual goals to fruition; and most of all, a way to continue finding solace and consolation in good soil, the fruit of their own labor and social interaction with individuals of similar motivation.
I doubt seriously if most buyers will comment right about now even if they were aware there were threads back here. The pace set by this board is rather intimidating and I'm not singling anyone out here but this might sum up why quite a few potential buyers are going to remain silent-
Quoted:
Let it become a wallet filler as well as a wallet drainer...
I tried to read all the posts here, and I think that feedback is a good thing, I have sold both here (when we had the stores) as well as ebay, haven't done the ebay thing in a year or so, but enjoyed growing and selling, I always was prompt with leaving feedback for the buyer who paid, as soon as they paid, that way my end was done, then after they rec'd my item (usually were seeds) then they were welcome to leave me feedback, I think this is how it should be, they made the first effort to pay, so I leave them feedback - makes sense to me, just my opinion :-)
as to whether folks should buy here instead of ebay, well, as has been stated above, we are a wonderful group of folks here on DG and speaking for myself personally, I would shop HERE instead of ebay for anything I could get, just because we are a nice relaxed group of people who enjoy anything pertaining to gardening, just would make sense for me to shop here, and I will, I can't wait for this to be up and running.
LOL Marylyn, thank you for telling me. I go directly to my homepage, and skip dave's. I shouldn't do that I guess.
I think you misunderstood my question. As a buyer, I already know what I'm going to buy...or I do after I see it! LOL I think the question should be why should I spend my money here instead of elsewhere. There are incentives for the sellers to be here, (lower costs) but as a buyer, why should I buy here, or the classic "What's in it for me?"
gordo, very well put, nice sentiments, and you seem like a seller I would most likely buy from whether you are here or on ebay. It really makes no difference to me at all. after using ebay for 10 years, I have learned to look at feedback first, and read between the lines, I've learned to check shipping costs first... so it really doesn't matter whether I buy here or there, and I have a feeling that most buyers would feel the same way. ;)
well put Melissa, when buyinig anywhere you need to check everything out, pricing, shipping, and feedback is a must, especially if you haven't had previous dealings with a particular seller, you'd like to be able to see how they are and do they ship quickly, etc. just in general I like to read feedback first just to see how they handle the customer and any complaints they get, do they try to use the old phrase "customer is always right" and remedy whatever situation comes along, or do they brush them off and leave negative feedback without dealing with the issue.
I think Dave should make it automatic on every home page, just to alert members to anything new. This auction for instance! He could make it a set location. I have mine in Column 2, Position 1 so I see any new notices.
Equilibrium...My point was, that rather than looking at commercial enterprise as a way to line one's one pocket, we should always be mindful there are individuals in need who will now have a vehicle for supplementing their income. If a person is honest-hearted and enterprising, this may be a way for them to help make ends meet.
I read a post not too long ago from a member whose husband suddenly died. He didn't leave her well off. As members began to offer consolation, they also offered suggestions as to just how this lady could quickly obtain funds for living expenses. I assure you, if there had been a Dave's Auction available at the time, many would have encouraged her to put some things up. In time, her brief venture into commerce, might have become a way for her to support herself independent from reliance upon a social program. Her friends will have lifted her up and given her the confidence to act. So, the auction can serve many purposes.
Why should I buy from here instead of ebay? Because I have seen the sellers around on the forums and how they help folks out, I know I will be treated like a human being and a person besides just a pocketbook.
I know that when I get a email or dmail saying thanks for your purchase that it might just actually mean somethign and not be some automated response.
I would buy from here because Dave is fair to everybody and has proven over the many years that he is more than capable of handling hundreds, of thousands of folks from all over the world and of so many backgrounds and walks of life, so I have the confidence that he will make sure that things continue the manner he has found best to protect everybody.
After all it just not buyers verses sellers. Daves reputation and all he has built on the line too.
I have a question regarding feedback that has always nagged at me.
I buy a seeds in the fall, for the following springs planting.
Yes, I leave feedback when I receive them, but I don't know until the following year if they are the seeds I ordered.
threegardeners... If you become more acquainted with the kinds of seeds produced by the specific plant you're interested in, its a big plus. Also, store your seeds in Mason jars in the fridge until you plant. Cool seeds maintain viability longer. :-)
I think what threegardeners is asking is - what is the etiquette regarding feedback for something that you won't know if it's viable, or if it's what you ordered for several months or a year after you receive it.
For instance, I ordered Yellow Lupine seeds, they were not yellow. I can't go back and edit my feedback a year later to say this and I for sure can't hold my feedback for a year...
I have no idea. I've never encountered the situation. What would your recourse be if you ordered from Park Seed, or another large seed supplier? Curious...
I do know that seeds that may have been open-pollinated (not under controlled circumstances) should be listed as such and considered "Heirloom Seeds". Other experimental, or hand pollinated seeds should be listed as such, as well.
threegardeners. I have had that happen before. I bought seed of one flower and color and what I got sure wasn't it. Your right in that you can't go back. What I have done was email the seller and say, surprise, these seeds were pink instead of orange. Would you be so kind as to replace them.
Usually if a seller finds out they have the wrong seed, they are pretty good about sending replacement seeds.
Other than that, all I know to do is that you can do is make note not to buy from them again.
Well gordo, it's never too late to share a possible opportunity with another member.
threegardeners- I've purchased seed from Burpee and Thompson & Morgan and didn't find out until the following spring that I didn't receive what I had ordered. I've also purchased seed that either didn't germinate at all or had an extremely low germination rate that I suspected might have been very old seed that someone was just trying to clear out or that had not been stored properly. Other thoughts would be of all the people selling seed who don't understand open pollination. In the past when I've been sold the wrong seed or seed that wasn't viable, I let it go and never bothered pursuing it because I was already into the following gardening season. I guess I'd be interested in knowing what the etiquette would be for these types of scenarios too.
I don't do that with those open pollinating or heirloom seeds. Anytime you get those seeds, you may just have anythign under the sun. I do that for commercial seed.
I look at the ads and see if they say anythign about commercial or my garden. If it says " my garden." I know not to expect not necessarily what advertized. I know I may get a few that look like mom but may have alot of new kiddies running around. Which is fine by me, cuz who knows may end up with something new and special. I know that those seeds are a pot luck for fun buy type of seeds. Just depends on what type of plant I getting seed from and then I research it if the and doesn't say.
gordo- Nope, no mention of the seed having been heirloom or open-pollinated. Open pollinated is supposed to be denoted as scientific name x ? or clearly stated as having been open pollinated but it hasn't been because I don't think many gardeners understand that breeding needs to be controlled to avoid hybrids so they wouldn't know to label their seed accordingly. I let it go everytime it happens and just toss out the plants because I don't think this type of a mistake is intentional.
I see...
So, explaining up front the origin of the seed is important in your choosing whether to buy...
As I am mainly a hybridizer of many plant species, I make sure the customers know plants from the crossing of varieties may or may not resemble the parent, and may well be something new. I would venture to say that most of my seed customers are looking for seed WITH the potential of being a new variety. They are more specifically interested in rolling the DNA dice.
Thanks, Equil... I DO post specific information about source pollens and such, and make sure to include the Source A x Source B information. In my field of work that information is essential.
For me yes, There are some things I need that I need them to be the exact cultivar for planning projects. But the adventerist in me likes to buy alot of unk x unk's. I Like the surprises. I like to knwo for some things that I may have a chance of having the only one of that kind of plant.
I also know that for unk x unk's I will generally be paying more for those seeds. Sometimes ya get dusa, sometimes ya get nice plants and sometimes ya get Wow plants. It all a roll of the genes and fun to play with and shop for. : )
I love the roll of the dice too. I understand some seed crosses do not come true.
Been trying forever to find tropical hibiscus seeds just for that purpose.
But, when I spend $20 for seeds that I can't find here, I expect them to be what they say they are, and, it would be nice to be able to leave the feedback accordingly.
To be honest with you, half the time I try to ask the seller doesn't even understand what I'm asking so I figure seed is cheap enough... no sense the risk of hurting someone's feelings over an F2... or an F3... or...
Others may not be so happy with "rolling the dice" and that's probably because they see a picture and figure that's what they're going to get so even if a seller does clearly list seed as having been open pollinated, the buyer still might not get it and be disappointed.
I get it and I'm ok with that but I'm not particularly ok with being sent the wrong seed or seed that doesn't germinate for me or seed that has an extremely low germination rate. I've been letting those situations slide mostly because of the time element. Seems unreasonable for me to contact a seller 6-9 months later to say, "Hey, you sent me the wrong seed or I only got one seed to sprout from the whole pack". I truly don't know what the etiquette is regarding these types of situations.
With Garden Watchdog type feedback, you would be able to go back and add to your original comments. The seller would then be able to respond. (I would call them first and say, "Hey about those seeds?") The other thing I like about the Watchdog is that not everyone leaves feedback on every transaction. I seldom look far at the feedback on EBAY when I buy. From my angle it has fallen to a nearly juvenile he said she said deal and is not very helpful. We need to try to keep the feedback here accurate so it is helpful and all need to remember that buyers can usually tell if the feedback is honest or a game. If I shop or bid, it will be my money, I will be the consumer and in most circumstances, I think my choice to comment or not. If I don't send $, you don't send merchandise. Like at the live auctions I love so much, I the buyer doesn't pay, they aren't welcome at that auction house. The admins at this site have no problem removing problem posters and I don't expect them to have many problems with dead beats on the auctions. I also expect that Dave will give us a good, clean feedback system.
I've been around long enough to know many eBay sellers buy seed in bulk, not knowing much about the seeds' origins. They figure bulk seed dished out six or seven at a time is a good way to make money. But, they have no idea as to viability. I can remember purchasing Beaumontia Grandiflora seed to the tune of 30.00 (SIX PACKS OF FIVE EACH) and having one sprout. Of course, that vine is now consuming my house, but it made me leery of auctions where hundreds of packs are offered in a bidding situation. As a result, I hand over all of the information at the outset: that it originates with me, I hand pollinate under controlled conditions, I produce a limited supply, dry it quickly, and ship it within a week after payment.
Seed of specific types, in bulk, from sellers uneducated about the importance of origin and storage are really a crap shoot. Certainly, they are in no position to make the sale good, because it is quite probable they've sold all the wrong stuff and don't have access to the correct seed for replacement.
So, if you absolutely MUST have a certain variety, I would either buy from one of the large seed suppliers, who are more likely to be in a position to replace seed than a seller who simply doles seed out from unknown sources, by the number, for profit alone.
Seed_Sprout, the only negative FB that I ever recieved on EBAY was in retaliation for me leaving the seller one. If you have been falsely accused of holding feedback hostage, it is because so many sellers do that. If a buyer pays promptly, they should get a prompt positive. If you wait for them do leave you one first, and you then send them an email that you will leave them feedback once the buyer leaves you feedback, that would make them suspicious. Not everybody leaves feedback or cares about it. If it is your business, you should just leave the appropriate feedback, which will save you time from sending emails asking for feedback. I really do not care about my feedback, but as a buyer, I only leave feedback if they leave me feedback based on me doing my part as a buyer. Several sellers have sent me emails offering to leave me feedback if I leave them feedback first. I just tell them not interested.
excelrealty just mentioned another reason why it is important to allow all of us to see the total number of transactions for each buyer and each seller.
Feefdback really needs to be left by the seller first if feedback is to be mutual.
Maybe limit time for sellers to 2 weeks and for buyers 6 weeks since some sellers say that it takes that long for an item to be shipped. I read about the first 25% on this post and about the last 10 post so I probably missed some since they were suggesting 30 days across the board, but I think that is too long for sellers and maybe not long enough for buyers depending on the sellers in stock or shipping habits. Maybe after feedback recieved, have a 2 week window from that date to respond to feedback.
There two feed back threads going and since not sure who readign what here what I posted on other thread.
Just sitting here thinking of a possible way to help save save Dave on space, since he not gonna be chargign listing fees.
I know on ebay I always check feedback first. if it les s than 100 i check the first page or two to see what folsk saying. If I don't fidn anythign bad in a one or two month time period , I go ahead and buy from them. Sometimes no matter how perfect a selelr is they may always have a tiny hick-up or somebody just being mean.
Unless it changed the last time I looked ebay stored all feedback from day one. That a whoel lot of threads and space Dave woudl have to keep, especially if he ends up with oodles of sellers and buyers.
Why not have an archieved feedback system for the auction like on a few other places. Some folsk will be selling plants and seeds right away. Somemay be booking orders ahead of time. Daylilies and bulbs comes to mind.
To keep free listing, then what about so many months in active feedback for sellers and buyers and also what ya bought, Then when that active time is up those actiosn go to archive so for so long and then after that period they just disappear. That might make it alot easier on Dave and not use all his bandwidth or whatever it is called up and force him to have to charge folks more.
This also gives folks that buy somethign now and dont get delivery til a later season, tiem to come back and leave feedback.
After reading so many of these posts it seems to me that we are trying to improve on E-Bay's feedback system. Honestly I think their feedback system is fundamentally flawed and I think trying to improve on it is a waste of time. I do not think the changes they are proposing are going to make it a whole lot better either.It's kinda like trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
E-Bays current feedback system set up makes it risky for both buyers and sellers by making it the all important thing that it has become. It is not a fair system and too easy to abuse. You feel like you have to leave feedback, and then you feel like you will never be trusted unless you have 100%. The new changes will just make it worthless because the sellers never will have any input into the system.
I am a trustworthy person, but I do not have 100% feedback in life...do you know anyone who has?
Dg is a special place, and we will be better than E-bay thanks to Dave, his crew and their talent.
I like the GWD because I don't feel like I "have to" leave feedback, but it is courteous to do so for the benefit others in the group. I still think that's the best model for the new auction site. Less emphasis on "feedback" and more emphasis on buying, selling, planting, and enjoying our gardening life.
May I pipe in here as a buyer who will not be selling anything?
When I buy something on line it is usually not shipped until payment has been recieved by the seller whether it is pay pal, credit card , check or money order. This means the payment was recieved AND cleared before the product is shipped to me. I therefore find it silly that the seller needs to leave me any feedback or rate me as a buyer. It is demeaning!
As a buyer, I should be free to leave feedback IF I want to and not feel obligated to do so. If the product is what I ordered and was delivered in a timely manner I should not feel compelled to go back and follow up with a rating of the seller. If the product or service exceeded my expectations I would be delighted to leave feedback and say so just as if it were a faulty product and lousy service would urge me into feedback mode.
If I make a complaint I expect the seller to be able to respond. No ratings of the seller should be allowed until any complaint or problem is first presented to them privately to give them an opportunity to make things right first.
As for ratings, I would rather see facts such as 1000 sales by this vendor with 2 neg. ratings or 2000 sales with 600 neg. ratings. Or 10 sales with 0 neg. ratings. The positive feedbacks can then be used by the seller in their promos " see what other buyers say about us" type situation.
edited to add: Since there are scammers in the customer area it might be good to have a private sellers area where problem buyers can be listed as warnings to other sellers and or black listed from the site completely if the situation merits it.
LOL ok I piped in anyway.
There is one very important part of feedback that seems to have been overlooked.Buyers need to be able to see the ratio of repeat buyers to a particular seller.There is nothing like repeat business to let you know a seller is taking care of his,or her, customers.Ebay's system does work in that respect.You will not have this resource if buyer feedback is eliminated.
Really? I guess I'm in the minority - I don't think I've ever looked specifically for the number of repeat buyers, or factored that into my decision to buy from an eBay seller...
I never thought of it either. Mostly because I would try to look at any other lots they had up at the same time as well as what they had in their stores to combine shipping.
When I check feedback I look for customers who have come back later to buy again.Not for those who buy several items at the same time.Another thing to look for is negatives changed due to"mutual agreement".That is really the feedback blackmail many of you are concerned about.If I see as much as two of those I move on and find another seller.
I would agree, I do look to see if there have been returning repeat buyers, that would show me they were pleased and taken care of and felt good enough about the seller to continue to do business with them
Many times customers do not return to purchase more items merely because the seller doesn't currently have items the customer is interested in at this time or perhaps it was a one-time kind of thing for the buyer or for other personal reasons. I have dealt with many excellent sellers of whom I am not a repeat customer for a variety of reasons -- none of which have anything to do with the seller.
I don't think it is fair to the seller to judge him or her as a seller because of how many repeat customers there are or are not.
I agree--I've made some one time purchases from places where I would buy again if they had more plants I wanted, but so far it was just that one must-have plant and I haven't been interested in their other stuff. So definitely seeing lots of repeat buyers is a good sign, but lack of repeat buyers isn't necessarily a red flag--it might just mean they have more specialized things that you're not going to buy from them very frequently because of that.
I would agree with glendalekid. Sometimes sellers have what a buyer wants and sometimes they don't. Depends on the timing. I do have to admit I never went back specifically looking for repeat feedback. Too hard when some sellers had pages and pages and pages of feedback and it would have been too hard to keep track of the names leaving feedback not to mention when they had done so.
Editing to add-
A few times sellers contacted me direct and asked me if I wanted to be on their mailing list. When I was put on the mailing list direct to their nursery, I stopped looking for their listings.
Hi Dave! I hope my message isn't too far down the list to catch your attention, but what I'd really like to see is a seller rating and a buyer rating SEPARATE. On ebay I've never gotten negative feed back ratings from users when I've sold stuff, but I've gotten several negative feedback ratings from people who were bad sellers. Now when I sell on ebay it looks bad even though I'm an honest, flexible, and patient seller. Please keep the ratings separate.
I don't know enough about ebay to get in on the conversation, but I do know that one bad seller can ruin a buyer!!! (and then they become a bad seller...right?...without deserving either)
Good idea Dirus - I too have a perfect sellers feedback but do have some vindictive negative feedback because I dared neg a bad seller. (I have well over 1000 feedback.) I've thought of starting a new sellers only id but that would mean starting out selling with 0 feedback, which would raise eyebrows immediately and fall under eBay's requirement to use PayPal and also PayPal's new 21 day fund holding for sellers with low feedback. (They "gotcha" just where they want, new sellers, don't they? )
I posted in another thread about recently needing some roof repair done, so I checked with Arizona Registrar of Contractors and the BBB for those roofers I was considering. Both of them only list problem "feedback" and don't clutter up their sites with positive posts. More importantly they both focus on resolving any disputes or problems. Actually I ignore all the gushy feedback on eBay and look for the negative. That to me is what is really important, and if the seller tried to resolve the issue.
Having overseen the GWD since we launched it, I agree that how - and/or if - a seller deals with a negative review speaks volumes about them. But I disagree that only negative feedback is helpful.
For the record, I've never been a fan of the eBay style of feedback: (e.g., "A+++++++++++SELLLER!!!") I try to be more specific when I leave a seller feedback - the plants (or whatever) were exactly as described, were healthy, were promptly shipped, etc.
IMO, feedback that is constructive and specific IS helpful to others, and that's equally true, whether it's a review that supports a positive rating, or a review that lays out precisely what didn't meet someone's expectations.
The BBB ratings are helpful - up to a point. If there's no feedback, you have to wonder why that is: Have they changed names to duck their past mistakes? Or too new to have encountered any bumps in the road? Are there a bunch of negative comments waiting for the required number of days before they will display them? Or has no one bothered to go through the (laborious) process to file a complaint?
I have not got a chance to read all the posts here but I have been a plant seller on Ebay a few years now,
I like the secret feedback, then it becomes permanent when both agree, my reason for saying is because as we all know plants are perishable. I have had buyers complain because 2 leaves fell off during shipping, or the plant was 1" shorter then stated.
I have listed 'this plant blooms at 3-4feet, the plant your buying is 1 foot tall, of course I show a picture of the blooms, what catalog doesn't? When they open the box and don't see flowers, they retaliate & complain or leave a negative.
Now I state pictures to be for example only, and if I do show a picture of the actual plant, I make sure to put in the policy I have the right to send another one of equal or greater value, if something shall happen by shipment day. BUT people still complain...which is not right. I have found that most buyers that have a problem (and most likely it in the shipping) do not give the seller a chance to fix things, there for I clearly state now, I am not responsible once it leaves my hands-period. But I do offer insurance, if they would like to buy it.
Insurance is another ball of wax, I would have to say 100% plant sellers on Ebay (including myself) do not tell the buyers up front that USPS insurance does NOT cover plants, it will only cover if the box never arrived, and to me that’s half the battle with USPS is the box getting to where its going (2-3day Priority).
That’s why I still offer it, but I cannot control weather, and I don’t have time to monitor shipping temperatures everywhere. SO I leave that choice AND risk to the buyer. I would have to say with all honest plant sellers, 90% of the complaints are from shipping and/or USPS. 5% of complaints are from the buyer not fully reading the description or policy.
I myself secure the root ball of a plant to the box itself 95% of the time, and use NO packing material at all, it saves a ton of money AND the leaves/branches do not get crushed or wilt as much- its worked great for me, there for I know my plant has a better chance of making it to the buyer in good condition.
I know I stretched my concern out too long, but it all relates to feedback. Ebay don’t care because their money is made from factory wrapped items from China. If they were an honest plant seller, they would understand the importance of seller feedback.
I haven't been on DG much lately, so I'm really late to this conversation. I've read through most all of the posts here...and someone commented that a lot of buyers aren't posting here, so I thought I'd add my 2 cents. Most likely I'll be a 95% buyer and 5% seller.
I *love* the idea of having a feedback system very much like the GWD has. It's simple to use and read. It gives everyone a chance to really tell their story and update it later. You're not limited to 80 characters like on eBay (last time I was there). That limited amount of characters just isn't always enough. I really like to see in GWD that some companies seem to have problems with a certain item (say Tulips) but other items do very well (like seeds). That's really important to me.
As far as blocking bidders, I think that will be necessary. Even here at DG, which will be/is the best situation anyone could ask for, things go crazy sometimes. Otherwise no one would ever get booted. I think that's just being realistic. The admins cannot spend their entire days just looking after the auctions, and even if they did something could still get through.
For buyers getting feedback...I love getting feedback when I buy something, and it only seems fair. I agree that it's a good idea to keep the buying/selling fb ratings separate. I'm also one of those folks who believes the seller should be the first to leave fb. Lots of times when I buy on eBay if the seller won't leave me fb first I just forgo the whole thing. As for those who do the "leave me + fb and I'll do the same for you, leave me - fb and I'll do the same for you"...I report them and leave them - fb saying what they've done (this is where a fb system like GWD's would be great, to tell what really happened).
I really believe that one of eBay's biggest problems isn't actually their feedback system, but their lack of dealing with issues that arise. From my experience there it would seem as though if someone is hurting eBay itself (those making big time bucks) the issues are dealt with, but if someone is hurting buyers or sellers, well, things can slide...and slide...and slide. I think the big difference here at DG is that these auctions aren't being set up to line Dave's (or whomever else's) pockets, but to give the wonderful folks here a safer outlet to buy and sell their goods. The interest is in the people. That's only one reason I'd rather sell and buy here.
Other reasons I'd rather sell and buy here is because most likely I'll (at least somewhat) know the person I'm dealing with...or I can go to their info page and look up posts that they've made and see if I want to deal with them. There are already folks that I'm hoping offer their items for sale because I've seen pics of their gardens, have heard how great their stuff is, or would just like to see them do well. I also think that most "outsiders" who start selling here will eventually become part of the DG community...how couldn't they?
sorry this was so long, I think I gave y'all more like $1.50 than $0.02!!
Heather
The only neg feedback, I have gotten or from sellers on ebay are the ones that I left neg feedback for because I never received the item and then they send a email saying enjoy your neg feedback ...of which I didnt deserse because they had no reason to leave one, I always pay as soon as auction is over !
It's simple don't have buyer feedback, if you get someone that does not pay too may times ban them. I never thought much about buyer feedback anyway. Or maybe it could be set upso that the buyer can't receive feedback for an item unless he has left feedback for the buyer.
Why would you not have buyer feedback? Buyers are the end customers?? I care what the people who have spent their $$$ with a seller felt abut the transaction and the product.
grammy, I think she meant that as a buyer I would get no feedback from a seller, not that the buyer couldn't leave feedback.
Terry addressed this for me in another thread... and the answer is that the feedback will not be visible until both parties leave it. If after XX amount of time, the other party has not left their feedback, the other will be released.
Terry, if you're watching and I got that wrong, please correct me.
I did mean that feedback left for a buyer is really of no value, if they don't pay, 3 strikes and they are out. When was the last time someone bid on an item of yours and you actually checked their feedback?
I'm going through some crap with an ebay seller now. I purchased 3 items on March 3rd, and I still do not have them. All the Delivery Confirmation Number tells me when I check it is that the Post Office has been notified to pick up the item. There is no actual proof that the items have been mailed. I was told I should have taken the insurance, and that I was out of luck.
I filed a claim with Paypal, and I get the message that they are going to leave Negative Feedback for me if I give them a Negative. I paid for my items right after I purchased them, I did my part, I should already have my feedback.
That's why I believe there needs to be a system in place to protect buyers from sellers that just abuse the system. I had 1190 seller feedbacks as of Wednesday. With 2 Negatives, and 1 Neutral. 1 negative is from a buyer that didn't pay for their item and decided to get even, the other is from a buyer that did not receive an e-mail telling her we had a hard frost and I would ship her plants in the Spring. I sent her 3 or 4 times what she ordered, but the damage was done, I didn't even know about the negative until after I sent the plants and she apoligized for not contacting me first (she was new to ebay). The Neutral is from someone that did not read the entire listing, received exactly what they paid for and really had no beef.
As a buyer I have 284 feedbacks 3 negatives, 2 came while my computer was down, and I thought I still had time to finish the transactions, and the 3rd is from a seller that took more than a month to get my purchase to me. He sold product he did not have, and refused to refund my money. When I finally got my item and left positive feedback I received a negative because "I was rude and demanding", It was fall I had harvested the rest of the tomatoes, wrapped them in newspapers and stored them under the kitchen sink. One had fallen out and rolled behind something, which resulted in a magnificent hatch of fruit flies. I had purchased Fruit Fly Traps, and they were of no use to me 30 days later.
So I have been abused by both buyers and sellers, and I think if you take feedback for buyers out of the equation you are eliminating that problem
I have made it my policy NOT to leave feedback for sellers that do not leave feedback for me first, and when they e-mail me asking me to do it I tell them exactly why they have not received their feedback. As a seller I leave buyers their feedback after I ship their item MOST of the time, on occasion I fall behind and it doesn't get done right away, but I have to say this I have never left negative feedback to get back at someone.
I also know of an ebay case right now where a seller refused to take a return unless positive feedback was given to them. The lady mailed the item back with Delivery Confirmation, and Insurance. When she asked for her refund she was told the package was empty, and accused of mail fraud. Then he posted negative feedback about it. Now she doesn't have the Postcard, and is out over $40.00.
I have one negative on ebay, and it continues to bother me yet today. I purchased a magazine subscription, paid for it and never received it. I left a negative for the seller and they in turn did the same for me, even though I paid for the item.
I contacted ebay resolution and they said they could not remove my negative. A couple of days later, the seller was no longer an ebay subscriber, and had received many more negatives from others who never received their subscription.
I got scammed like many others, and I still have the negative on my records.
My negative came in a similar way Deb... I didn't receive the merchandise, left negative, they left retalitory, then got booted from ebay under that user name. I'm sure they came back under another name though.. people like that always do I think.
The subject of Insurance was mentioned - it is important to note that the PO will not insure perishable items such as plants. This is why I never offer insurance as an option. If you wish to insure them, it would need to be an agreement between you and the seller.
There have been a couple of instances where my packages have been lost for over a week, so of course the plants were not in good shape when they arrived, I have just replaced them or offered a refund if I did not have a replacement. I did ask them to pay the shipping tho as it was neither my fault or theirs.
