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Poultry and Livestock: Floating air sacs

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maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

February 22, 2008
1:35 AM

Post #4570566

Just got 16 bantam Rock eggs in the mail today, they seemed very well packaged. I candled them to check integrity of air sacs and noticed that six of the eggs have air sacs floating all around the inside of the egg. Has anyone successfully (or not) hatched eggs like these? Please help...Scott
luckycharm_1
londonderry
Australia

February 22, 2008
4:57 AM

Post #4571418

but that is impossible it is probably the yolk you see or the air sack is on the side of the eggs except the end but it cant be in the midle

edited to say i am completely wrong on this subject thanks for listening

This message was edited Sep 28, 2008 5:59 PM
Catscan
Lodi
United States

February 22, 2008
5:06 AM

Post #4571470

Hi Scott--I haven't tried hatching eggs with "tremulous air cells," but Storey's Guide to Raising Chickens says: "The air cell has become detached and quivers or appears somewhere other than at the large end of the egg. As the cell moves around, the membrane will deteriorate and eventually rupture. Cause: the egg was handled roughly, was stored at a high temperature, or was defective when laid."

And in Storey's Guide to Raising Poultry it says: "Tremulous or loose air cells also affect hatchability; use care in handling eggs to prevent this."

So it doesn't sound good. Aren't batam eggs a little more delicate? I've been reading up on the Serama and they sound very hard to hatch--but wonderful once you get them.
maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

February 22, 2008
12:17 PM

Post #4572106

Luckycharm, the air sac was floating all around the inside perimeter of the egg, not in the middle. But it was definitely not the yolk, as you spin the eggs, you can see the transparent air sac follow the high point in the egg.
Thanks Cat, for the assistance in determining the cause (and technical term) for this condition. I spoke with the person who shipped these eggs, he advised to let the eggs sit for a day before putting them into the incubator and that they should be okay. Hoping he is right...Scott

You are falling into the Serama trap also...hmm...whatever you do, don't go onto "youtube" and search serama, otherwise you will find the videos of them posturing, and the videos of them crowing, and then you will go onto eggbid and buy their eggs..LOL...Scott
truest
Johnson City, TX
(Zone 8b)

February 22, 2008
1:17 PM

Post #4572251

I hope you can get some to hatch, Maine. I recvd 2 boxes
of hatching eggs from 2 different people, and they were
each packed very differently, one good and one with many
eggs broken. But, I ended up with 2 birds hatched from each
sender. I dislike the the eggs being rough handled, and if I
ship someone eggs in the future, I plan to do my best to ensure
they get them in the best possible condition. With my low hatch
rate, I accept the loss, but look forward to having mating pairs
right in my back yard.
Catscan
Lodi
United States

February 22, 2008
6:04 PM

Post #4573569

Let us know how the eggs with the tremulous air cells (love that term) go. I am having some eggs shipped next month and know that travel can be hard on them. It would useful to know whether to even try incubating eggs with floating air cells. Good luck!
maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

February 22, 2008
7:23 PM

Post #4573831

I am borderline anal, so will keep accurate records of which eggs have "TAC's" and if the hatch ratio is consistent with the others. I will keep this thread updated
mcamden
Glenwood, IA

February 22, 2008
9:01 PM

Post #4574143

The air sacs in my last batch of incubator eggs only become detached after the chicks started to develope. I dont konw what caused it...but none of my chicks hatched (although 6 of the 10 did fully develop).
luckycharm_1
londonderry
Australia

February 22, 2008
10:06 PM

Post #4574346

well it looks like i was proved wrong now dosent ithow on earth did the air sack get into the inner egg i always thought that there was a wall blocking the airsack from were the yolk is
maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

February 22, 2008
10:59 PM

Post #4574549

Luckycharm, I think that's the point. The membrane must have ruptured allowing the air sac to float all around. Next question is what does that mean for the viability of this egg? If I was a betting man, my money would be on tossing these eggs now. But I have to know for sure, and there's only one way to find out...Scott
truest
Johnson City, TX
(Zone 8b)

February 23, 2008
5:55 AM

Post #4576220

What color are serama eggs, Maine? I guess you will know
very soon what you have.
maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

February 23, 2008
12:53 PM

Post #4576582

The serama eggs that I purchased are all light-med. brown, seems they are thin shelled and very easy to candle. I don't know if that is consistent with all serama. I purchased eggs from three separate breeders, and they were all very similar in size and appearance. They are small, even for a bantam egg. Batch #1 23 of 30 are alive and well at day 17. Batch #2 13 of 16 alive at day 16. Batch #3 4 of 16 alive at day 10 (many of the embryos died around day four). The exciting thing about Serama is that there are few if any color standards yet, so hatch day should be like opening "a box of choc-o-lates" to quote Mr. Gump.
truest
Johnson City, TX
(Zone 8b)

February 23, 2008
3:18 PM

Post #4577092

Those are great numbers, Maine. I've never seen bantam
seramas, and look forward to pic- tures. I will be banding
my birds when older. I want to track the best, and mix up
the genetics with future hatching eggs.
maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

February 27, 2008
4:06 PM

Post #4595991

Candled the TAC eggs, NONE are viable, most of the others are okay tho.

Out of 16 eggs, eight are growing. Should I ask the dealer for something in exchange or let it ride, anyone?
truest
Johnson City, TX
(Zone 8b)

February 27, 2008
4:41 PM

Post #4596176

My thought would be to let it ride. Most say they have no
control over egg package handling, anyway. And, if this
seller did offer to send more, what would make them change
the packing or labelling on the package? Are they fair about
shipping costs, or are they getting some extra? I try to be an
optimist, but what's to stop someone from knowingly sending
bad eggs to make a buck and unload them, when there's no
guarantee, anyway?
Time in the incubator, and the rest of your investment in caring for chicks is too valuable, when you may find the same from a better
packer, handler, breeder.

may princess tammy's Wednesday be a happy one.
Catscan
Lodi
United States

February 27, 2008
4:45 PM

Post #4596191

I agree with truest, except if you have observed that one way of shipping is much more successful than another, it might be helpful to let the TAC shipper know. I'm sure they don't want to send people damaged eggs. Maybe there is a nice way to tell them?

Of course maybe there are jerks who really don't care--I sure hope not, I've already sent a check in for Barnevelder eggs later this spring.

This message was edited Feb 27, 2008 1:30 PM
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

February 27, 2008
9:49 PM

Post #4597531

thanks for this thread Scott
maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

February 27, 2008
10:26 PM

Post #4597659

YW
Catscan
Lodi
United States

March 1, 2008
3:07 AM

Post #4607156

So, is the consensus that it is probably best not to try to incubate TAC eggs? It sounds that way--has anyone been successful with them?

This message was edited Mar 1, 2008 11:16 AM
maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

March 1, 2008
12:16 PM

Post #4607940

I just got 15 eggs in the mail from Ca. yesterday. 6 of 15 have TAC. I barely have room, but I can't help but give them a try - 5 days isn't too much to invest, coincidentally these are also bantam Rock eggs - same as the other TAC eggs...hmm...sensing a pattern here. If none of these take, I will have made up my mind about wether to try incubating any more TAC eggs (or mail ordering bantam Rock eggs).

Update on the first TAC eggs - Eggbid Dealer "dickschicks" gets two thumbs up!! He was very reasonable, more so than he had to be, offered to send replacement eggs if I pay S/H.
Catscan
Lodi
United States

March 1, 2008
3:22 PM

Post #4608455

I think I would want to try too. As you say, it is only for a few days. I'm watching your results carefully, my eggs should start arriving in a couple weeks:-)
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

March 2, 2008
4:25 AM

Post #4611303

i need to understand this right. if when you candle an egg, befor eincubation, you see the air sac moving around, it is TAC? And about 50% chance it is viable?
freedomfarmsva
Chesterfield, VA

March 2, 2008
4:35 AM

Post #4611330

It's interesting to see this thread. I had something similar happen to eggs I got last year. Most of the eggs, though well padded, could shift around a little in the box (a big no-no! you shouldn't feel anything shake when you gently shake the packed box), and so I think the shaking caused the problem. In my case, the air cells were mostly gone--and when I turned an egg end over end in my hand, I could feel the contents shift around!!!! I think in many of the eggs the membrane that holds the air cell in was broken & those eggs didn't hatch. A few the air cell apparently revived in, and they did hatch.

This isn't quite your problem, but it seemed to relate. I don't have high hopes for your eggs, but best wishes!

P.S. Were these White Rock bantam eggs? Or another Rock variety?
maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

March 2, 2008
4:41 AM

Post #4611348

They are Barred, Columbian, Buff Columbian, and Partridge Rocks. Yes, TF you can see the air cell moving all around inside the egg, as to the chance the eggs are viable, none of the TAC eggs were in the first batch, and it's too soon to know about these others.
freedomfarmsva
Chesterfield, VA

March 2, 2008
4:45 AM

Post #4611366

Just curious because I raise White Rock bantams myself, and love them. I feel really bad for anyone deprived of having them! :-)
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

March 2, 2008
4:46 AM

Post #4611370

should i contact the seller? these eggs weren't cheap you know. or wait till i candle them better. or wait 7 days in incubator.

they wre very nice & did a good job packing them. i don't recall any guarantee in the listing...
Catscan
Lodi
United States

March 2, 2008
5:02 AM

Post #4611420

It is so frustrating--I googled TAC (well the full term), and there are quite a few scientific journal articles on it, but you have to pay for them. It seems to be a significant commercial production problem. One women, talking about turkeys and quail on another forum, says not to bother even trying with TAC eggs. Also a man says that he always thought that it was best to go "from vent to incubator" , that is, the less time the eggs waited before incubating the better, but apparently a period of dormancy allows the air cell to orient itself and increases hatchability. Hmmm. Maybe travel interrupts the normal development of the air cell in fresh eggs and makes them more vulnerable to TAC.
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

March 2, 2008
3:33 PM

Post #4612304

could it also have to do with nutrition? my hens always had thick shells and thick membranes... time of year could affect its thickness too. there is always a loss when things are rushed ahead of mother nature's way...
Catscan
Lodi
United States

March 2, 2008
3:40 PM

Post #4612329

I think it is definitely linked to nutrition and time of year, TamaraFaye. Poor hens, we ask so much of them. But is it so much of a problem if the hen is incubating her own eggs? Maybe there is something you can do with nutrition etc to increase the hatchability of eggs that are going to be shipped? This seems to be an excerpt from a book on egg production and looks interesting.
http://books.google.com/books?id=VihrHR1DfIUC&pg=RA2-PA644&lpg=RA2-PA644&dq=tremulous+air+cell+egg+chicken&source=web&ots=GU-PFiqLmM&sig=grvqk88fWgy9FrGdvrEUPx29hpw&hl=en#PRA2-PA642,M1
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

March 2, 2008
3:53 PM

Post #4612384

really interesting! dont' know why they bothered with the table, since it "differs substantially between breeds"

certainly some of my hens started laying smaller eggs, after being moved a couple o ftimes and very stressed. so i suppose as spring comes and the food available is more varied than the grains they get during hte winter months, they will fill out again and egg size will increase. so if they go broody in the summer, i will let them do their thing, they will likely do better that the incubator, esp considering they will have more weight and will produce larger eggs which are likely to produce larger healthier chicks...

i am going to keep reading, just wanted you to know i was there...
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

March 2, 2008
3:56 PM

Post #4612399

i've been wanting to weigh my eggs to see how they measure up. originally, in their first year of production, would have been a good time to hatch out. they had Jumbo eggs which graded about AAA, always more than AA...

now weighing the dozen eggs would help with knowing hatchability...
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

March 2, 2008
4:07 PM

Post #4612442

too bad they don't go into detail abou tthe TACs, and it won't let me cut and paste...


whew! what a read, filled with commercial facts. so glad we are not into commercial production! we can focus on quality care & in return get quality production...

as far as my TACs go, i will put them in as SC suggested. & contact the egg shipper about the old eggs. there is likely nothing she could do about the TACs, though, according to the booklink from catscan, some eggs are LAID that way!

i saw lots of grease spots too! i was hoping that being from Southern Cal, & the owner free ranging them, & they grow organic heirloom produce, that these would be eggs from healthy well fed birds... & the pictures showed healthy well fed birds. so i will hope for the best.

thanks everyone for all tjis info! now if i can just get good at candling...
granny_goody
Luther, MI
(Zone 4b)

March 2, 2008
4:20 PM

Post #4612502

That might be a problem for me also, TF. But we will try to get it right and maybe someday will get there...LOL.
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

March 2, 2008
4:21 PM

Post #4612506

;-)
N_Flrda
Bunnell, FL

March 8, 2008
12:27 AM

Post #4635720

Today I too recieved what I paid way too much for in eggs that arrived with ALL broken air sacs. and is why i found this thread. So it will be the last time for me. Im tired of it. I can't tell if it's dishonest sellers, angry postal ppl or if it really is a mistake?

all i know is that ive been buying mail order eggs for over 15 years (ducks, quail, chickens, pheasant, etc) and only had this problem in the last two seasons from ebay and eggbid. I have bought from eggbid since it was eggbay and didnt have any problems back then either. so just in the last two seasons and only 4 times, 4 diff sellers. All 4 clutches were duck eggs. but of course each of these were the most expensive every time being pure and exotic breeds. i cant afford to pay for nothing. its funny though. when I buy less expensive bird eggs, they always show up inatct and get high hatch rates.

I have also never once seen this problem in any birds ive ever raised since i was in 6th grade and ive hatched lots of different types and breeds.

this is confusing and no sellers will own up to it.

try this: go to your refridgerator and candle the eggs we eat. should be NO difference and if they werent refridgerated at such low temps would probably hatch. see if they have broken air sacs?

if not, take one and shake it vigorously a few times like the post office might do. see the outcome by candling it again. shake it even harder and see what happens. it takes a LOT of force to break that up. and ALL chicken eggs we eat are shipped in shaky trucks to the stores and are nowhere near as fresh what hatching eggs are supposed to be.

id love to get to the bottom of this wonder.
maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

March 8, 2008
3:12 AM

Post #4636323

I'm sorry about your duck eggs. That really sucks. I just got more eggs today and some yesterday with a few in each batch that had TAC's. Funny enough though, some of the eggs that I put in last week which had the TAC, are actually viable at this stage. I think there were two or three out of six which have begun to develop. Go figure...Scott
Catscan
Lodi
United States

March 8, 2008
3:46 AM

Post #4636435

Keep reporting on your TACs Scott! I'm leaving tomorrow for a work trip and when I get back in a week I'm hoping my eggs will start arriving. The literature never actually says they "won't hatch" it just says it affects "hatchability" whatever that means:)
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

March 8, 2008
5:41 AM

Post #4636791

i really think it could be a nutrition or viability or genetic problem. i found some TACs in my OWN eggs. so now that i think about it, they could all be coming from one or two hens. i will take notes when i candle tomorrow night...

crestedchik

crestedchik
Cicero, NY
(Zone 5a)

March 8, 2008
4:29 PM

Post #4637937

Hey you guys
When you buy eggs and they get shipped it all luck if they hatch
I've had some people hatch all but one or 2 that I've shipped
others ,they were fertile but broken air sac and nothing hatched
In one year I spent 400 on hatching eggs
and got maybe 10 to hatch
There was one group I paid 65 bucks for and hatched 1 cochin from it
My 65 dollar chik

Lat year I tried a dozen auracana(true)
all were fertile but the air cells got me
not a single hatched

thats why the trading is better
all you're out is postage
maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

March 8, 2008
8:20 PM

Post #4638807

Thanks all - I am keeping careful notes and will share the results.
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

March 9, 2008
5:12 AM

Post #4640894

well, i candled & found lots more TACs. all not viable. pitched 19 eggs, yes some cost as much as 2 bucks an egg! but many were from MY hens, those eggs wren't shipped & handled with TLC???!!!
maineiac
Lincolnville, ME
(Zone 5a)

March 9, 2008
11:26 AM

Post #4641162

TF, Wow - that is not what I expected to see out of homegrown hatching eggs. Sorry to hear about your misfortune. All I have is shipped eggs to compare, so maybe my opinion was biased. Anyone else having bad air cells in homegrown eggs? Thanks

crestedchik

crestedchik
Cicero, NY
(Zone 5a)

March 9, 2008
11:52 AM

Post #4641186

Ya know its funny,but I just had a few
But they were all out of the same pen so I figured there had been some kinda rough housing going on
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

March 9, 2008
2:26 PM

Post #4641579

come to think of it, my 6 yo son Peter brought some of those eggs in. Ya can't trust him with a carbonated beverage in a can, so...not as TLC as needed LOL and btw, NONE of those with TACS developed. and many were ones that weren't marked, i.e., i didn' tsee the TAC when i candled before i incubated...
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

March 11, 2008
4:41 PM

Post #4650696

i had some TACs develop... BLODD RINGS!

actually one seems to be viable, with veins and a peep and movment. but still floats around...

learned my lesson. after tossing countless dollars worth of eggs...

tf
BULROO2
Lady Lake, FL

July 8, 2008
4:08 PM

Post #5223832

I know I'm jumping in really late on this, but, I too have had shipments of eggs TAC and if incubated with a turner I do nothing different and if no turner I prop the air cell end up and bit and handle with care and have had pretty good luck with hatching...
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

July 8, 2008
9:48 PM

Post #5225769

not at all bulroo, this is good info!

what you do, i heard that too and tried it with no luck. three eggs out of twelve made it to the pipping stage... but they were really bad tacs, way too big, like the membranes had ruptured...
luckycharm_1
londonderry
Australia

July 8, 2008
9:59 PM

Post #5225827

its good that old threads pop up again it just means we can re-examine them from different perspectives and wat exactly do u do i dont understand it sorry im a bit slow today still tired

josh
TamaraFaye
Fritch, TX
(Zone 6b)

July 8, 2008
10:01 PM

Post #5225837

you're tired? my baby kept me up till 3 AM, and i am so sleepy, need to take a trip to town to get water... baby just woke up from his nap, where is mine?
luckycharm_1
londonderry
Australia

July 8, 2008
10:03 PM

Post #5225851

well your a mother your used to being tired i dont have kids yet well hoping to soon any way.how old is yours ??
luvs2garden2000
(Tia) Norman, OK
(Zone 7a)

July 8, 2008
11:40 PM

Post #5226306

you young chickens you.
luckycharm_1
londonderry
Australia

July 9, 2008
1:57 AM

Post #5227012

are u saying your an old chook
Catscan
Lodi
United States

July 9, 2008
2:19 AM

Post #5227154

Don't chickens keep you young? Tired, worn, smelly, happy, and young...
luckycharm_1
londonderry
Australia

July 9, 2008
2:50 AM

Post #5227362

i agree with catscan dont forget they keep u in a grumpy mood:)

josh
luvs2garden2000
(Tia) Norman, OK
(Zone 7a)

July 9, 2008
11:41 AM

Post #5228410

some of you with young kids and wanting kids are the young chickens around here. I have done my time. Now I am having fun with babies.
luckycharm_1
londonderry
Australia

July 9, 2008
11:45 AM

Post #5228424

yep u get to sit back and relax us "young chickens" are just getin started (dam)

jordankittyjo

jordankittyjo
Bessemer, AL
(Zone 8b)

September 27, 2008
2:43 PM

Post #5605637

bumping this up for reference
Harmonyplace

(Zone 7b)

September 27, 2008
3:12 PM

Post #5605723

Thanks Jordan i've never heard of TAC and now i know was it ever determined if it was the shipping,
old eggs or just the egg it's self??

jordankittyjo

jordankittyjo
Bessemer, AL
(Zone 8b)

September 27, 2008
3:13 PM

Post #5605733

i'm still trying to figure it out. on of my eggs due to hatch monday has a leak on top. what does that mean?
Catscan
Lodi
United States

September 27, 2008
3:25 PM

Post #5605775

Hi Harmony--it can be genetic--or bird's health--or any rough handling. When they ship them, it is due primarily to rough handling.

Somewhere in the thread there is advice to let the TAC eggs sit and stablize for, I think , 24 hours before putting them in the incubator. People have had good luck with some TAC eggs this way. I never did. I think I had one develop to about day14 and then die.

I just read in my new FFA book, "How to Raise Chickens" that you shouldn't start turning them until the fourth day. I've never heard that before. I have read that the embryo and it's blood supply are extremely delicate the first few days and any jostling could destroy them--one reason to wait til day 6 or 7 or 10 to candle.

Has anyone else heard of waiting that long?
Harmonyplace

(Zone 7b)

September 27, 2008
3:39 PM

Post #5605820

lets see the natural way>>> A hen will lay about 7 to 14 eggs depends on the breed and will then become broody so the first egg has been in the nest for 7 to 14 days and i have seen them turn them during that time and when they go broody they turn them from day one. So i don't understand the not turning for 4 days.

Yes you should be careful handleing your hatching eggs prior to and at setting and candle at 7 days or later.
ZZsBabiez
Lodi, CA
(Zone 9b)

September 27, 2008
3:45 PM

Post #5605849

Interesting... I've got to get some books.. so I can read while I'm away from the computer!

I hope I didn't mess with my eggs too much... I'm not touching them now.. but I couldn't resist yesterday..
Catscan
Lodi
United States

September 27, 2008
4:46 PM

Post #5606006

Thanks, Harmony--that's what I thought too.

ZZ--I have a lot of good books--if you'd like to borrow some and see which ones you might want to buy?
ZZsBabiez
Lodi, CA
(Zone 9b)

September 27, 2008
9:18 PM

Post #5606721

That would be awesome! I went to amazon several times.. then got overwhelmed and left.. LOL

I can't get enough...

Thank you!

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