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Hybridizers: Post Your Most Memorable Previous Experiment

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gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

March 17, 2008
3:39 PM

Post #4674482

Hey, why not everyone post their most memorable DG documented experiments with any kind of plants? It would bring to everyone`s attention here in one place who is messing with seeds and what kinds of plants are being worked with.

Here is one of mine from last year in the morning glory forum. Ron C. says morning glory hybridizing is strictly species crosses and doesn`t include crosses of two of the same species. What I`m doing here is selective breeding. I cross two plants both having desirable characteristics. Then I self the F1 and select what I`m looking for in the F2 for possible further selection.

It includes web albums with pictures.

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/723247/

Karen

P.S. Post Yours!
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

March 17, 2008
6:20 PM

Post #4675100

Karen,

"Ron C. says morning glory hybridizing is strictly species crosses and doesn`t include crosses of two of the same species."

I suspect he meant that most morning glory hybridizing is intraspecies hybridization and doesn't include crosses between two different species. In other words, crosses within the same species, as you are doing, is the most trouble-free way to breed morning glories. Crosses between different species (within the same genera), referred to as interspecies hybridization, is a more advanced activity. More advanced still are intergeneric crosses between species within two different genera.

MM
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

March 17, 2008
6:42 PM

Post #4675153

Yep, that is what I meant. Morning glory hybrids are crosses between two species.

ipomoea nil x ipomoea purpurea .

What I`m doing is crosses between the same species.

ipomoea purpurea x ipomoea purpurea

ipomoea nil x ipomoea nil

I tried the ipomea nil x ipomoea purpurea crosses and got a lot of "no takers". I`ll probably try again this year just for the heck of it.

Karen
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

March 17, 2008
6:56 PM

Post #4675198

Quote MaineMan:

{"Ron C. says morning glory hybridizing is strictly species crosses and doesn`t include crosses of two of the same species."

I suspect he meant that most morning glory hybridizing is intraspecies hybridization and doesn't include crosses between two different species. In other words, crosses within the same species, as you are doing, is the most trouble-free way to breed morning glories. Crosses between different species (within the same genera), referred to as interspecies hybridization, is a more advanced activity. More advanced still are intergeneric crosses between species within two different genera.}
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is Gardener2005 again:

Ron belivieves the word hybrid or hybridizing in morning glories only refers to interspecific crosses such as ipomoea purpurea x ipmoea nil for example. He says that same specie crosses are only referred to as crosses and it isn`t hybridizing.


I have a question. Would doing crosses and selective breeding of the same specie be considered a form of hybridizing for other kinds of plants such as daylily and canna?

Do the parents have to already be interspecies hybrids to be considered hybrids in other plants besides morning glories?

Karen



gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

March 17, 2008
7:00 PM

Post #4675213

The only way to learn is to ask. I`m confused about some of the terminology and brave enough to ask a question to be able to understand the terms better. Karen
bwilliams
Louisville, KY

March 18, 2008
12:23 AM

Post #4676297

I think the oddest experiments I have done are being done this season. The all seem strange either bombarding the seeds or seedlings with some kind of rays or radiation or dipping them in chemicals. At the moment one I cannot help from looking at are the seeds that are in a test tube with magnets between them. The magnetic field are thought to possibly cause mutations. We will see if their is any reaction to the treatment. They have been between the magnets now for 3 weeks.
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

March 18, 2008
12:30 AM

Post #4676312

Karen,

Well, the terminology is a bit semantic and different people may prefer different terms. For me, when I go to the trouble to take pollen from one plant and put it on another plant, thus crossing one plant with another, then I consider that to be hybridization, even if the two plants are rather similar. In the case when there is considerable similarity between the parents, you could prefer to make a distinction between a cross and a hybridization.

However, I don't bother to make that distinction and the majority of my crosses are between dissimilar parents. Zinnias are fairly heterozygous even in field-grown strains, so the concept of F1, F2, etc is a little "iffy" anyway. You may be crossing an unknown bee-made F1 hybrid with an F2 or F3 from a previous bee-made cross, so what do you call an F1 x F3 hybrid? F1.5 or F2.5? And since we don't know exactly what the bees did (and they don't know either), the matter descends into fractional probabilities.

"What I`m doing is crosses between the same species.
ipomoea purpurea x ipomoea purpurea
ipomoea nil x ipomoea nil"


Both of those are intraspecific hybrids. Most commercial F1 hybrid seeds are intraspecific hybrids, so you certainly have a right to refer to what you do as hybridization, because you are producing F1 hybrids, as the interesting recombinations in your F2 hybrids confirm.

"Do the parents have to already be interspecies hybrids to be considered hybrids in other plants besides morning glories?

Certainly not. Like I said, all or nearly all of the F1 hybrid seeds on the seed racks or in the seed catalogs are crosses between different inbred strains of the same species, with very few exceptions. One exception that comes to mind is triploid marigolds. F1 hybrid corn, F1 hybrid tomatoes, F1 hybrid zinnias, you name it, are crosses within the same respective species. Morning glories don't occupy any special status in regard to the terminology of what constitutes an F1 hybrid. If the parents come from different strains of the same species, the result is an F1 hybrid.

So far, all of my zinnia crosses have been between different plants of Zinnia elegans (now referred to as Zinnia violacea in academic circles), so all of my hybrids have been intraspecific hybrids. Your experience of "no takers" between I. nil x I. purpurea is not unusual for interspecific hybrids, which usually are more difficult than intraspecific hybrids. You can expect an extra amount of trouble if the chromosome numbers of the two parent species are different, because, even if the seeds from the cross grow, the resulting hybrid will frequently be sterile.

MM




This message was edited Mar 17, 2008 8:33 PM
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

March 18, 2008
1:39 AM

Post #4676592

Thank you MM, For your reply. I use the terms F1 and F2 for record keeping as you say knowing that God only knows where my parent plants came from. LOL!

One idea I have to try to help a interspecific cross "take" is in a test tube with chemicals and grow the embryo this way. I notice a small swelling that appears favorable and then poof they dry up so maybe I could try growing the embryo in a test tube. I know that sounds crazy but I want to try it. :)

Brian, I can`t wait to see some of your results. After reading that I don`t feel my ideas are quite so unusual anymore. I have hope and look forward to a good growing season!

Karen
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

March 18, 2008
3:07 AM

Post #4676996

Karen,

"One idea I have to try to help a interspecific cross "take" is in a test tube with chemicals and grow the embryo this way. I notice a small swelling that appears favorable and then poof they dry up so maybe I could try growing the embryo in a test tube. I know that sounds crazy but I want to try it. :)"

Your idea is not at all crazy. The subject of embryo rescue is discussed in the book, In Vitro Plant Breeding by Acram, Ph.D. Taji, Prakash P. Kumar, and Prakash Lakshmanan. Just enter embryo rescue into the Search Box and press the red Go button and explore the hits.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1560229071/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

The very closely related subject, zygotic embryo culture is discussed in the book, Introduction to Plant Tissue Culture, by M. K. Razdan, in Chapter 11 (beginning on page 128) titled Zygotic Embryo Culture. You can enter the search string "129" in the Search box and press the red Go button to get a list of hits for that string. At the top of the list is hit 1. "on page 129" and clicking on that will link you to page 129, which is the second page in Chapter 11. Just use the left arrow in the margin of page 129 to go to the beginning of Chapter 11 on what would be page 128 if it had a page number.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1578082374/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

Another advanced coverage of zygotic embryo culture is discussed in the book, Plant Tissue Culture: Theory and Practice by Bhojwani and Razdan in Chapter 11, titled Zygotic Embryo Culture, beginning on page 297. Entering "297" in the Search box is the quickest way to find a link to that page, because it does have a page number.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0444816232/ref=sib_dp_pt#reader-link

There are a lot of Tissue Culture books that describe how to culture tiny embryos from interspecific hybrids, and even intergeneric hybrids, that otherwise would not develop to maturity. So your idea was a good one.

MM
dmj1218
west Houston, TX
(Zone 9a)

March 18, 2008
3:29 AM

Post #4677099

I'm too tired to remember my most memorable experiments--but I grow a lot of bulbs from seed. A lot of Cape Bulbs, and a lot of the Amaryllidaceae family and Iridaceae family (but not Iris' per say). I'm fairly serious about crosses within Zephyranthes and Habranthus species--and "dabble" at a few others.
Debbie
Margiempv
Oro Valley, AZ
(Zone 9a)


March 19, 2008
2:46 PM

Post #4682114

Karen,
I love your Morning Glory babies! Congratulations!! Seeing your work, I hope it encourages others to take the step to try and cross their favorite plant to see what joy hybridizing has in store for them (not to mention all the new and colorful varieties hybridizing brings into this world). I hope you share your next experiment too.

~Margie
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

March 19, 2008
3:42 PM

Post #4682340

MM, Wow now I better get to reading. The thought of growing a test tube seedling is very cool. I`d prpbably kill some of them at first but eventually I might could catch on. I sure would try it!

I thought of sharing a mutant morning glory seed grow out. This wouldn`t be anything too out of the ordinary because many hobbyists grow the mutant morning glories. I have some cotyledons I`m waiting on. Maybe I could do a learning thread for myself and others as I discover how to raise these strange plants. Being a novice is fun because everything is so new and fresh all the time. Each day you wake up to check your plants and have something to look forward to. It is fulfilling to see your work grow.

I can tell I`m going to enjoy it here because I like to look at plants and not just the kind I grow myself. It will be interesting to see what others are doing and learn from others.

Karen
Gourd
Mesilla Park, NM

April 24, 2008
8:47 PM

Post #4858868

Well, good to see you here.. something we have in common is the Morning Glory.. so I hope to learn several things here in this forum.. I too love to see unique and new hybrids, so this looks like a good place to be.
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

April 24, 2008
9:16 PM

Post #4858999

I`m very much looking forward to seeing what everyone is up to with the strange experiments and hybridizing this summer! Gee, where do I start? My mind is swimming with ideas but I have to finish watering and plant a bunch of stuff. That surely will keep me down to Earth. LOL!

Karen
Gourd
Mesilla Park, NM

April 25, 2008
8:01 PM

Post #4863449

Well, it sure will be interesting. I'm getting reversed tubes again..lol
JAnnetteW
Philadelphia, MS

March 3, 2010
3:59 AM

Post #7601302

I haven't done anything memorable yet. This is what I am considering. I have been looking at watermelon seeds in a catalog and on the internet. I have found two attractive heriloom varieties which I have never even eaten, but the reviews from their fans are tremendous. I thought it sounded like I could develop a hybrid from these two varieties bred for their antioxidant values as well as their flavor. However, I have a big problem. I have never actually seen either one with my eyes. I only have photos and descriptions. From the outside they look identical in their appearance, and they both grow approximately the same size. How would I know which is A and which is B? Then the next year, how could I tell my pollinated varieties from the bees varieties? I think I would have to cut every one open to be sure. Does anyone else have a clue?
bwilliams
Louisville, KY

March 3, 2010
6:18 AM

Post #7601558

I would think their would be a difference in the plants hopefully visually or it could be very difficult. The plants should be tagged in their rows to be sure they do not get mixed up before any breeding is even done. It would be best to compare every part of the plant for differences some maybe in the flowers or the patterns on the fruit to just the flavor. If these cannot be seen or tasted then testing would need to be made and if this is the case I would fear it would not be worth it to release a new plant that not even you can tell apart from the rest.
While breeding I often throw away thousands up on thousands of plants away. These plants are not good enough or they are to similar to others already on the market. I usually make a list of every trait I can think of to look for in my work some new unimaginable traits do show up and are usually added to the list. After looking at hundreds of thousands of plants it starts to become clear which are worth while. I currently am culling out plants from 2 years ago I started out with 200 thousand and brought it down to 40 thousand my task is to take these and break them down into two groups one for further breeding and another for releasing. I hope to have them down to just a hundred or less this year.

irisMA

irisMA
South Hamilton, MA

March 3, 2010
2:34 PM

Post #7602052

We don't have as many seeds as you all seem to be playing with. Husband & I hybridize irises, especially the smaller ones. We susually cross those with the same chromosome count or thise with a different count, but are compatable with each other when plants are produced. (Tall bearded irises have 48c. When I.pumila is crossed with them, dwarf irises are produced, which can easily be crossed with each other.) Tall bearded breeders now cross them with each other, easily done now that they are tetraploids. They are also crossed with other 48c species.

Experiments have been done with crossing with the aril species & the TBs which produces arilbreds which are easier to grow in northern climates than the pure aril desert species. These arilbreds when crossed with the dwarf iries mentioned above produce interesting plants which are sterile for the most part. So you have crosses between the garden hybrids, a product of many generations of breeding & a different species in the iris family.
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

March 3, 2010
3:15 PM

Post #7602176

With my canna lilies I`m looking for plants that can live through a cold wet winter and clean blooms. I get rid of messy flowers that refuse to self cean and tend to just go by "Is it pretty most all the time,different from what I already have and always here year after year?"

I`m testing some mini watermelon seeds this year. I`ll see what I get and know what they produce alright. Last year, I never got tired of eating watermelon almost every day for a couple months. Enjoy them!

Also,I have a seedling Lousiana iris that is growing through this terrible winter. It has grown a lot just the past month. I even have a crinum lily seedling. Next is a rose seedling. This year I`ll plant more of everything and watch it grow. I`m always growing something different every year.

Karen
redheadclan
Vail, AZ

January 15, 2011
5:58 AM

Post #8311540

I'm hybridizing irises. Here is my best result.

Thumbnail by redheadclan
Click the image for an enlarged view.

redheadclan
Vail, AZ

January 15, 2011
6:01 AM

Post #8311544

here are my seedlings from last year's crosses.

Thumbnail by redheadclan
Click the image for an enlarged view.

irisMA

irisMA
South Hamilton, MA

January 15, 2011
8:44 AM

Post #8311772

Our iris seedlings are under the snow. We do medians & some crosses with I.pumila & I. aphylla. I didn't get last yrs seeds planted and with 20" of snow on the groung it will be quite a while until I do.
redheadclan
Vail, AZ

January 15, 2011
9:07 AM

Post #8311804

I find that you can refridgerate iris seeds in wet paper towel in a ziploc for about 5 weeks. Tthen plant them in 1" pvc pipe as you see in the picture and put them in a sunny window. Then you can get them to sprout in a couple of months. I've got 40% so far.

irisMA

irisMA
South Hamilton, MA

January 15, 2011
9:10 AM

Post #8311809

right, I find that too much work & use normal cold for this area.
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

January 16, 2011
11:17 AM

Post #8313566

redheadclan,

Those PVC pots look like very durable reusable homemade pots. Do they have bottoms? Do you have trouble getting them to release their contents for transplanting or repotting? I use commercial plastic square pots whose slanted sides make it relatively easy to dump the root-bound contents out into my hand as a "rootball" that won't fall apart. My zinnia roots form their own "peat pot" without the disadvantages of a peat pot.

Your "best result" iris is impressive. It appears that the petals have a lot of substance and a good bi-color combination. I admire the breeding possibilities with iris, lilies, daylilies, hibiscus, roses, etc, but the long wait times in the breeding cycles with those species are not to my liking.

I have chosen zinnias to breed because of their accelerated breeding cycle and their wide variety of colors, flower forms, and plant habits. The individual zinnia blooms can last for weeks, and a zinnia plant can stay in continuous bloom for months. Zinnias are easy to grow. They germinate in only a few days with no seed pre-treatment needed and bloom in 5 to 7 weeks. By germinating immature "green" seeds, I can accelerate the seed-to-seed time to achieve several generations in a year. I can get two generations outdoors here in Kansas and another two generations by growing some zinnias indoors.

I have developed a technique for growing zinnias successfully from cuttings, and am now experimenting with the tissue culture of zinnias. The zinnia breeding hobby can be year-round, with no "down time" waiting for cold pre-treatment or lengthy germination and no long waits for the plants to mature to a flowering stage.

In keeping with the Most Memorable Previous Experiment aspect of this thread, I have had several "break through" zinnia specimens that were very satisfying, and it is difficult for me to pick just one. My "Pink Shaggy Dog" specimen was probably the most spectacular bloom, and I am attaching a picture of it. But there have been many other unique specimens in the "you-can't-get-that-from-a-seed-packet" category. I think my most memorable next experiment will be to develop a successful method of tissue culturing my zinnias. That will give me something to work on this Winter. And I am raising some of my hybrids-of-hybrids zinnias indoors as well.

ZM

Thumbnail by Zen_Man
Click the image for an enlarged view.

redheadclan
Vail, AZ

January 16, 2011
2:33 PM

Post #8313881

The pvc pot don't have bottoms and you can just push the seeling/soil out with a dowel.
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

January 16, 2011
3:24 PM

Post #8313951

That sounds very practical if your growing medium is dense enough to stick to the PVC walls. The growing medium I use (Premier ProMix BX) is rather loose, and would fall right out of a bottomless pot. Sometimes a little of it falls through the rather generous square drainage holes at the bottom of the clear pots that I use.

http://repotme.com/orchid-pots/Orchid-Pot-Square-Clear-325.html

ZM (not associated with any product or vendor mentioned)

blomma

blomma
Wyoming, WY
(Zone 4a)

June 10, 2011
10:00 PM

Post #8623343

My first attempt at sowing Iris seeds from a bee pollinated iris in 2009 resulted in the Buffawn seedling below. Just opened today. Nothing spectacular but will give it another year to see if the bloom is better. It looks no way near its pod parent but is blooming at the same time. I have 2 more just ready to open from the same pod parent. The other seedlings from Buffawn are taller and not showing buds yet.

Thumbnail by blomma
Click the image for an enlarged view.

blomma

blomma
Wyoming, WY
(Zone 4a)

June 10, 2011
10:02 PM

Post #8623345

Here is the pod parent Buffawn (Andrew 1940)

Thumbnail by blomma
Click the image for an enlarged view.

irisMA

irisMA
South Hamilton, MA

June 11, 2011
7:04 AM

Post #8623675

Any amoenas growing near the pod parent? Interesting result.
rebloomnut
Cut Bank, MT
(Zone 3a)

June 11, 2011
8:12 AM

Post #8623825

Very interesting. Nice white full standard and nice coloring on the falls and the beard looks good also. I would give it another year also. It certainly has better eye appeal from a distance than Buffawn with the brighter clearer colors. Can't wait to see the others.

blomma

blomma
Wyoming, WY
(Zone 4a)

June 12, 2011
12:10 AM

Post #8625061

irisMa I figured out where that bee had been that pollinated Buffawn. I have Gay Parasol planted a few feet away and it is an amoena, which bloomed today. I also have Electric Shock not far away. Both blooms with Buffawn.

It seems to me that there is more genetic material to play with crossing modern irises. In other words, there is limited genes in historic irises. Example, Buffawn is from 1940 and in my mind have limited genes compared to irises from 2000 and newer.

rebloomnut I intend to give it another year. But, I certainly don't need or want a Gay Parasol look-alike. Will plant it in my garden after it is done blooming. It is currently in my coldframe. Buffawn may not be as colorful as its child, but it is unusual in color, the reason I like it.

It has been a great year for iris blooms. I have crossed close to 100 iris plants. Still not done. After the iris, I will cross daylilies. Hope those seedlings will bloom this year.

Below is Gay Parasol

Thumbnail by blomma
Click the image for an enlarged view.

rebloomnut
Cut Bank, MT
(Zone 3a)

June 12, 2011
5:14 AM

Post #8625208

I think it is a good thing to take the older ones and use again with others as so many were set aside and not used to their full capacity as parents as soon as more colorful ones appeared. There are still a lot of genes to bring to the table and hopefully you can do that. I like the veining in Buffawn and the new seedling picked that up beautifully. I am a fan also of Gay Parasol and like the bluer coloring of the seedling.

irisMA

irisMA
South Hamilton, MA

June 12, 2011
11:35 AM

Post #8625779

Help, my keyboard slipped & I lost my post. I agree that some of the older irises have traits which were not explored. I wouldn't go back to the 40's however. In fact working with SDBs like I do, the tall/pumila crosses didn't exist. However I can put pumila as the older TBs if something important to me might be hiding there.
RIRISH
Bonne Terre, MO

November 16, 2011
10:07 AM

Post #8892776

I havent gotten int othe science of hybridizing plants I am a small time hybridizing dabbler of 12 years with iris and daylilies but mostly iris.
Crossed them just for the fun.

My best all around seedling was an Iris cross of Lemon Mist X Silverado
This seedling has great form and substance,large flowers each with very even large ruffles and proliforate( i dont baby my plants either, they have to be tough) and it always grew well, bloomed until totally overwhelmed with constant shade from a huge tree
.
To me it has it all, but the color isnt special enough to ever introduce... sporting a ruffled more open white standard with pale lemon ruffled wide falls.
.Lost the photo or i would show it Maybe next spring.
Its been many years since i first planted that seedling but i still love this old flower friend and enjoy it each spring when our up and down inclimate weather here allows it to reappear.
For a brand new iris dabbler I would recommend Silverado as a parent. You almost cant miss with this fellow..
Even though older it is a GREAT parent and passes on its winning Dykes Metal traits .

Also an experiment...once dug up 2 reblooming iris plants with buds in October in the mid west , crossed them inside and got a pod
.However either the pod had no seeds or it never matured not sure which as its been many years ago but no viable seeds.
Still dont know if it would work successfully.If it has worked inside for any one i would be interested to know. .Pretty exciting anyway,

juhur7

juhur7
Anderson, IN
(Zone 6a)

April 4, 2012
7:58 PM

Post #9070292

Have'nt all that many attempts at hybrdizing, I suppose my most memorable was a peppermint french hollyhock,and that has come and gone commercially.If that had been the zinnia I'm seeing lately,or maybe an iris, or dayllily, That would've really been something.
weedyseedy
Warners, NY

April 12, 2012
10:04 AM

Post #9079701

One Summer when I was probably drinking too much wine with poppy seeds in it I read that the source of daylily infertility could be in the pistol so I decided to try to graft Stella pistols and stigmas on wild daylily flowers pistols. This involved dissecting the flower the day before, shortening the wild daylily pistol then cutting one off Stella. Then I razored off hollow grass stems slid one down over the intended wild daylily then inserted the Stella stigma in the outer end of the hollow grass until they met. A day or so later when the flower bloomed I pollinated it. Well I got seed pods but they were the usual empty seed pods on wild fulva-------but I guess I had fun.----------------------------------Weedy

irisMA

irisMA
South Hamilton, MA

April 12, 2012
12:26 PM

Post #9079839

Iris---A cross of donated TB pollen onto I.aphylla. the species looking plants grow well & have lots of buds. I carry it onto the next generation.
Zen_Man
Ottawa, KS
(Zone 5b)

April 12, 2012
7:36 PM

Post #9080359

My most memorable recent experiment is developing a successful scheme for growing zinnia seedlings directly from embryos rather than waiting for seeds to mature. That cuts nearly a month off of my bloom-to-bloom time, and I am now growing seedlings of my second generation of zinnias this year. I will be setting those second generation seedlings into my garden in about three weeks, and start cross-pollinating my third generation in about six weeks from now.

By germinating embryos from those crosses, rather than waiting for seeds, I will be well on my way toward my third generation of zinnias this year, with a lot of year left. I am kind of curious now how many generations of zinnias I can grow in a year by using embryo culture. It's not tissue culture yet, but embryo culture shifts my zinnia breeding into a higher gear. My zinnias will multiply a little bit like fruit flies.

ZM

Thumbnail by Zen_Man
Click the image for an enlarged view.

skeita
penal
Trinidad and Tobago

April 22, 2012
11:41 AM

Post #9092942

[quote="redheadclan"]I'm hybridizing irises. Here is my best result.[/quote]

This is beautiful!

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