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Japanese Maples: Looks like Bloodgood is a goner.

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boojum
Shelburne Falls, MA
(Zone 5a)

May 5, 2008
1:09 AM

Post #4906871

I didn't have a chance to wrap my JM and the winter seems to have peeled the bark and killed the tree. I'm in denial. Bloodgood was actually going to get bigger than I wanted (15') so if I replace it, I'd like suggestions for a smaller one (6-8'). I think it would help me to stop the denial and move on to grief and then a search if I had some ideas. Thanks.

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boojum
Shelburne Falls, MA
(Zone 5a)

May 5, 2008
1:10 AM

Post #4906880

Bark.

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boojum
Shelburne Falls, MA
(Zone 5a)

May 5, 2008
1:12 AM

Post #4906889

Luckily in another part of my garden the dwarf JM is starting to leaf out!

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Lily_love

Lily_love
Central, AL
(Zone 7b)

May 5, 2008
1:13 AM

Post #4906895

I'm sorry about your lost of such lovely tree. I live in the South thus my climate is too different from yours so I couldn't suggest anything out of own experience. If you preferred a smaller? Why not go for the grafted variety? They will stay compact and won't be terribly big.

Lily_love

Lily_love
Central, AL
(Zone 7b)

May 5, 2008
1:15 AM

Post #4906902

There, I spoke too soon. That's exactly what I meant. Those are beautiful, and the boulder. Perfect!!!
boojum
Shelburne Falls, MA
(Zone 5a)

May 5, 2008
1:48 AM

Post #4907076

I guess I'm looking for an upright tree, rather than mounded. I found one online just now A. palmatum Moonrise. The color may be too orange but it only gets to 7-10'.
mattlwfowler
Walhalla, SC

May 5, 2008
2:21 AM

Post #4907272

I'm not so sure that this winter cold was cause of the death of your tree. I could be wrong but it looks like to me there was some trunk damage prior to this winter. The reason I feel that way is that there are stems coming from just below the damaged spot and they appear to be alive still (which usually indicates damage in the region). Also, winter damaged bark would probably just be black at this point, and it would be later before we should see any peeling. I haven't had too much experience with cold damage so I could be wrong but my inclination is to question that as the cause.
boojum
Shelburne Falls, MA
(Zone 5a)

May 5, 2008
2:26 AM

Post #4907298

There were some animals that ate the bark on a ginko sapling near this garden, but it was very different and obvious damage (white ring eaten all the way around). What do you think could have damaged it? Come to think of it, some of the leaves were curled up last year and it hardly grew compared to other years.
davesnursery
Milford, DE

May 5, 2008
10:10 AM

Post #4908214

Rabbits and mice will eat the bark of a tree. Darn pesky things.

Dave
davesnursery
Milford, DE

May 5, 2008
10:20 AM

Post #4908224

As I look at the Bloodgood some more I was wondering if it might be sun scald.

http://www.coopext.colostate.edu/TRA/PLANTS/index.html#http://www.coopext.colostate.edu/TRA/PLANTS/sunscald.html

Dave
boojum
Shelburne Falls, MA
(Zone 5a)

May 5, 2008
1:56 PM

Post #4908969

Huh! Could be although it's the east side you are looking at and that side has large white pines about 15' away. There was lots of white snow though. I didn't think it was animals. It looks like the bark just dried out and peeled away. Oh how I wish I hadn't been moving last year (from house to apartment in the barn) and remembered to wrap it!! Ojala!
Davidsan
Springfield, IL
(Zone 6a)

May 5, 2008
2:08 PM

Post #4909029

whatever it is Matt is right it is not winter damage IMHO it is also not critters. sun scald is a possibility although i personally have had sun scald and it has created some flaking but not that much damage ...I will look at daves link.. it could also come from root rot from being to wet ..or from what ever was wrapped around the base of the tree that still shows ..I think the bark is just a symptom of it being dead ( root rot or some disease. just a guess though... I don't think wrapping would do anything to help period ... it may make you feel better but I would don't think it is necessary with most hardy JM's which if yours is either a BG or Atropurpurium it is hardy... wraping will only keep critters away and can cause wetness and disease depending on what you wrap it with!!

Two other things ...don't plant in same place or exact area icase it was soil born or area condition born. Two ...any tree can be trimmed to to stay smaller ...but your choices in 10' or less trees are too many to post. And also for northern areas I would take 2-8 feet off the ultimate hgt of any tree ( conservitavly). my 15 yerar old Atros and Bloodgoods are not more than 12-15 ft tall and wide. With time they may reach stated hts...but if so in many many years.

Bloodgoods are a grafted tree I can't tell if yours is grafted or not ...but if seed grown it can't be called anything other than an Acer Palmatum ( red or green) ... but that also tells you that tree is totally hardy to your area ... if it is a grafted BG it is also totally hardy... many other JM cultivars you will be taking a chance in such an exposed area winter and summer If I am seeing the jpeg correctly. Most problems do come from late frosts or even normal spring frosts and early budding so look for trees that late bud ...Fireglow, Emperor 1 and Red Baron all break ltr than even BG...also Aka shigitasu sawa. and Kasagiyama..which break the latest i have and both are small. Stay away from any tree that is a witches broom ...usually dwarf ..period ...even those that are brooms of BG's or other hardy trees ...they are generally much less hardy!! David

This message was edited May 5, 2008 9:13 AM

This message was edited May 5, 2008 9:19 AM
boojum
Shelburne Falls, MA
(Zone 5a)

May 5, 2008
5:38 PM

Post #4909916

Thanks, David. Wonderful info. The wrap was from a farm supply-some kind of webby stuff. I was attracted to Fireglow but if it is the soil, I won't put in another JM. So sad.
Davidsan
Springfield, IL
(Zone 6a)

May 5, 2008
5:44 PM

Post #4909937

Oh I didn't see the Moonrise mention...I have one it seems like a nice tree but so far unspectacular tree ...haven't had long enough for winter hardiness or sun scald adaptability.But I think if I linesd it up with ten other trees of similar color and leaf type I couldn't identify it ...I may change my mind with time and usuallly tolder trees get their true characteistics NOT youngin's or freshly planted ones... it is I believe a fairly new introduction I have seen it being offered just recently ... as with the "mythical" sarraz anyone buying a new cultivar IMHO should only do so at a reasonable price unless price is NOT a consideration and unlimited sopace to "play" with or if like me you have hundreds of other cultivars and just want to "try"it ...there are just too many other tried and true Jm's to get one that new and unproved thru word of mouth and not experienced by enough folks in differnt zones .My Moonrise cost 50$ NOT 350$$ for a four foot 3-4 year old tree..David..
boojum
Shelburne Falls, MA
(Zone 5a)

May 5, 2008
8:28 PM

Post #4910600

I just talked to a friend who is a professional gardener and she said the ice killed lots of trees in this area. She didn't stop by to look at it though. We had 1-2 feet of ice (not snow) most of the winter on the yard and garden. Right about where the bark is peeling.
Davidsan
Springfield, IL
(Zone 6a)

May 5, 2008
10:08 PM

Post #4911082

I guess it is possible but I don't totally buy it... we had three severe ice storms this year and at least that many this year...I lost limb after limb of white pine branches like jenga... But never any damage to JM's or bark damge to any tree... Ice actually acts like an insulator thats why they spray the orange trees in FLA with water before a freeze and those trees are NOT dormant like yours was ...I can see it topping trees and destroying them that way ...but then why did your dissectum do ok it should have been totally KO'd they are way more delicate and have winter kill and damage from ice and general winter conditions than uprights. In addition it was just at the bottom ...that explanation really doesn't make sense even from a pro...as I said anything is possible and you said you had solid ice on it for a long period of tiime ...but that explanation really seems far fetched for a dormant JM...Now if it did that in april or may after 70-80 degrees in March when the sap was a runnin'!! like last year then maybe ...and that in fact is another possibility ...it could have happened last spring and you just didn't notice it and was ultimatly a gonner ... Most folks with late freeze damage and I lost a dozen trees mostly to bark damage to fr4eezing sap last year were not totally out of the woods as far as survivival of trees that releafed til this spring... those that are NOW doing ok will likely survive but I'd bet many more died over the winter not from this specific winter conditions but as a result of a tree dramatically weaked by that debacle last spring!! David

This message was edited May 5, 2008 5:45 PM
boojum
Shelburne Falls, MA
(Zone 5a)

May 6, 2008
1:05 AM

Post #4911761

Not sure about last spring but that happened recently here. The freeze decimated the magnolia blooms. I guess I should check them for damage.
Davidsan
Springfield, IL
(Zone 6a)

May 6, 2008
4:00 PM

Post #4914272

OOPS ther are too many Moon this and that /...I have both A.P Moonshadow ...and A.S Moonrise ( it is NOT an A.P. as you had stated ..easy mistake to make been there done that)... also A.P Moonfire ...and A.S.Autumn Moon ...all of which are really differnt from one another ... A.S. Moonrise is a new tree but from what I have seen in the short period I have had it it is in fact spectacular ...hardiness summer and winter??? But A.S. are generally very hardy trees and leaf late...I thought you were talking about A.P. Moonshadow that is so far not particularly exceptional ...but as I said who knows. What I said about buying new trees still goes for most folks especially newbees..I know when I first started on this road to insanity ...I only bought tried and true Japanese cultivars that I was pretty sure were ok for my area.
f6r22
Plano, TX
(Zone 7a)

May 7, 2008
1:06 PM

Post #4918410

David,

May I ask where you bought your A.S. Moonrise (3-4ft) for $50? I have only been able to locate them at $$$ for a 10 or 15 gallon size. I have never been able to track down a smaller tree, except at forestfarm where they are selling tubes.

thanks,
xman
Davidsan
Springfield, IL
(Zone 6a)

May 7, 2008
5:03 PM

Post #4919528

Whitmans ...don't know if she has any left or how nice those are ...my tree is nice sized but not a large caliper trunk descent branching I would say a three gal size ...which is really a good size to buy anyway ./..less work to repot plant out and what ever but big enough to enjoy and to ensure over wintering etc...I will check again it may be a to the lower end but nice and in that range 3- 4 I keep getting those two ...Rise and Shadow mixed up ;>) David
bluegrassmom
Lewisburg, KY
(Zone 6a)

May 10, 2008
4:38 AM

Post #4931557

It is always sad to love a JM. I lost one last year after that crazy late freeze! I am watching to see what is suggested too.
treelover3
Minneapolis, MN
(Zone 5a)

May 10, 2008
11:57 AM

Post #4932037

I agree with Dave. It certainly looks like sun scald to me too. Is the damage on the south or southwest side of the tree? If so, I would say the damage is sun scald. I have damage similar to this on my Acer pseudosieboldianum. The damage is on the South side of the tree.
Mike
tl≥
boojum
Shelburne Falls, MA
(Zone 5a)

May 10, 2008
2:20 PM

Post #4932509

The worst damage is on the east and west side but it seems to be peeling all around. Was it too exposed? It got full day sun.

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Davidsan
Springfield, IL
(Zone 6a)

May 10, 2008
2:53 PM

Post #4932639

I still don't buy sun scarld although i will say dave is expert on Jm's much more than I... Mike is correct ..it happens on sun exposed areas ( and i have never seen it go all around the tree in a short period say one season)...it usually turns the bark white and then starts flaking and slower starting peeling in summer .Winter sun scald can happen to newly planted trees ( I have had it happen to fruit trees and sugar maples) split bark in winter but it is on one side and ususally heals up over time. I do not think that is sun scald but the cold and warm spells of winter do cause it or bark spliting as Dave's article states. One thing for sure is that with all that ground cover and low branches it did NOT happen in summer maybe spring or winter from the sun ...but it really diesn't fit in my limited experience with other trees and i have not had it happen on "healthy JM's" except in some insignificant areas of expsed trees. David
gramtotwo
Smyrna, TN

May 13, 2008
1:55 AM

Post #4943196

Can anyone possibly tell me what would cause three of my JM's to not leaf out properly? One has green in the trunk still, with no buds or leaves...it's in a large pot. Another, which is in the ground, only has leaves at the bottom 1/3 of the trunk, but it was so beautiful last year, even after the late cold spell we had. And last, the whole top of my Waterall JM, also planted in the ground, seems to be barren this year. It was beautiful last year. I have several others, some in pots and others in the ground, that have leafed out beautifully. I've checked for signs of disease, bugs, etc. but don't see any, and they are all located in different areas of my yard, so I don't see a common cause. It hasn't been real warm yet, not consistently, anyway. Could this possibly be why? I'd appreciate any input anyone may have. I don't have any pictures to share, but can and will get some if it would help.
snapple45
Holland, OH
(Zone 5b)

May 13, 2008
2:10 AM

Post #4943276

Any visible bark split or frost cracks?
gramtotwo
Smyrna, TN

May 13, 2008
2:38 AM

Post #4943445

Not that I can see. But they all look like the Bloodgood in Boojum's picture, except a couple of mine have leaves at the lower section of the trunk. I don't know if any of these are grafted, and whether that would make a difference or not. They are all 3-4 years old.
snapple45
Holland, OH
(Zone 5b)

May 13, 2008
12:17 PM

Post #4944482

Pictures would help. Particularly of the trunk. Grafts are either done high or low. That area would help too.
Davidsan
Springfield, IL
(Zone 6a)

May 13, 2008
1:26 PM

Post #4944728

several other questions..#1 were they left outside last winter or garaged. #2 did you water them in the winter at all if so howw often #4 how many were subjectr to last springs freeze and were they outside during it .David
boojum
Shelburne Falls, MA
(Zone 5a)

May 23, 2008
10:37 PM

Post #4994597

I just had conversations with two other professional gardeners who told me that JMs do not do well in many places around here. We are zoned 5a but we really are zone 4. One of the gardeners works at a private school (south of here) where people have donated JMs and they have to replace them every 3 years. I guess JMs are out for me. I do have a thriving dwarf JM that is protected by the two buildings and is quite old. So I guess that's it. Any suggestions for small red trees? Or shrubs I can prune that would look Asian? (want to keep the grasses there)
john_hosie
Gaithersburg, MD
(Zone 6b)

May 25, 2008
2:16 PM

Post #5000574

I had a pair of Bloodgoods back in the 1980's and early 1990's. They were fine for years. Then I noticed branches not leafing out one spring. I had a very similar bark appearance. There were some branches surviving, but most didn't. By July, the bark problems completely girdled the trees.

In the post-mortem, I picked off the dead bark. There were tunnels just under the bark of some critter. I never saw the critter itself. I wish I watched them more carefully and caught the problem earlier on. I was told by the local nursery that the problem probably got started the previous summer.
Davidsan
Springfield, IL
(Zone 6a)

May 25, 2008
2:48 PM

Post #5000682

In looking back at this thread i think your "professionals" may be have been hitting the corn licquor... Yes it may not be a perfect JM area but some basic JM's should do ok ...If you are now "gun shy" I would suggest container growing JM's ...I was totally resistant to this idea ( i thought it was unatural) but after last springs debacle I was sold on the idea ...with proper container growing you can have a multitude of differnt JM's in your area reguardless. And you have the added benifit of putting them,and moveing them around, wherever you want ...and never making the mistake of planting in the wrong place...which happens to each and every one of us as some time and often many times ..David

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