Sustainable Alternatives: How much food COULD you grow if you had to?

Forum: Sustainable Alternatives Replies: 239, Views: 1,673 Print -

Author Content foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 14, 2008 10:38 AM Post #5256924 The question IS...if we had a real famine here in the mighty U.S., how much of your own food could you supply for yourself... us country folk have it made, but city folk with only their lawns or balconies or window boxes or rooftops would be pushed hard. New Yorkers are making a try at it...how would you do?? Foggy Hastur Houston, TX July 14, 2008 11:29 AM Post #5257182 Here in Houston, I'm working to get ready for that particular worst case scenario. However, I have the advantage of having lived in Boston and been very, very poor, so I'm used to thinking in slightly different ways. We used to do all of the following, and it was a VERY effective supplement to the food stamps, so that we had good fresh food available. - Hanging plants anywhere that there is room. Right now, I can get ten hanging planters per side of the house. I'm planting beans and snap peas there, so that the vines can hang down and will be reasonably easy to harvest. I figure that 10 plants per side, with only the two of us, if we can get them growing (and that should be the easy part) will give us snap beans and peas for all winter. We used to have hanging plants anywhere we could in the brownstone, and could get beans like crazy off them. - Use greens for ground cover, instead of using decorative plants. I'm going to be planting swiss chard and spinach around my trees, since the greens like the shade and coolness. Easy to care for and easy to harvest - and the HOA can't complain since it's a better looking ground cover than most of the crud that's out there. We used to have a couple of trees in front of the brownstone, and grew chard there, as soon as we could plant it. - Plant vegetables in every available space, and go vertical as much as you can. By creating what looks like a "shoe tree" from some muslin and keeping it watered, you can grow most anything on a vertical surface. Basically you end up with little pockets of plants that creates a wall of vegetation. We used to hang these in front of the windows in the brownstone, so that we could have smaller plants such as herbs. - Grow carrots in 5 gallon buckets. Same with other root vegetables. - Use the fastest growing varieties of whatever you are working on, whenever possible. You can get two harvests per year, rather than one, if you time things right - especially if you are at least starting the growth inside. In Boston, we could get a growth from April through November, if we timed things right. - If you have a fence, grow stuff along both sides of the fence if you can. It's amazing how much you can put along one side in the first place, let alone on both sides. Our brownstone faced a tiny lot that was kind of communal for all the buildings. We made sure that there was no problem with using it, and were able to put out some cukes and squash that ran on each side of the fence. - Get together with your neighbors in the building and start a rooftop garden. Rooftop gardens, especially in brownstones and such, can be an amazing source of food. If you can get some of your neighbors involved, you can even get help keeping things watered. None of our neighbors were rich, either, so we used to cooperate to grow anything we could on the roof. I think that survivability and growth is going to depend on how various dwellers see the future and react to the potentials now. From personal experience (and no one else will ever get the same conclusions or results), I already can see that food prices and availability will be ... interesting ... in the future. So I have a house, with a small yard now. If I can lay in the right base for things, I will have, in my very tiny yard, enough room to grow every vegetable that my husband and I could possibly want - plus a little extra for trade with the neighbors. Do we need to think about and react to this sort of thing now? Perhaps not. But I keep remembering what my father used to tell me about growing up in the Great Depression when he used to do everything imaginable for food for the family (at a very young age, no less). I see our economy getting very weird and wild, with food and fuel prices changing how we approach things. It may not get to the depression stages - I certainly hope it does not. However, by starting now, we can be ready for anything, and that's never a bad thing. podster Deep East Texas, TX (Zone 8a) July 14, 2008 11:40 AM Post #5257233 Hastur ~ how will you provide water for all this in the south if times are severe? I am hoping you have incorporated a means of rainwater harvesting or greywater recycling also... Hastur Houston, TX July 14, 2008 11:49 AM Post #5257280 So far, the gutters all connect to a section that is removable so that I can put in a barrel if needed. The barrels won't get in until Spring or so (budgets!) but definitely, that is a part of the plan. I figure that large 55 gallon trash cans can be used in a pinch, if needed, but the budget says that they are lower on the prep areas than other things, unfortunately. I don't want to have to use the city water unless absolutely needed, in order to keep the costs down a bit. In later times, if it becomes needed, 5 gallon buckets are singularly useful for generally gathering water, especially during our torrential rains. Put the bucket out before the rain and bring it into the garage after, so that the mosquitos don't get access. I'm also using measured waterers on each of the hanging planters. I am a bit afraid of stepladders, so if I only have to water once per week, rather than every other day, it's a major help. Keep in mind that this is Houston: We get a metric ton of rain each year - as has been proven by how many times I've gotten drenched on my bike. *grin* As for all the stuff listed, it's a TON if you do it all at one time. When growing up, we kept adding stuff to the setups as each year went by. I figure that anyone interested in growing their own stuff is going to do something similar: get a good start and then keep adding to it as time goes by. foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 14, 2008 12:06 PM Post #5257389 Good stuff Hastur...I doubt if your family was ever "poor'...just really underfunded...the ones who are really poor are those who try not to think of the future problems...satisfied with the status quo. The 'underfunded' do things out of necessity that others should do voluntarily. You're right about no 2 cases being the same, but looking for the potentials is the key. Learning HOW to provide for yourself by growing your food now when it's not yet critical and developing cooperative systems with your neighbors may be the key to survival. Have you considered a horse watering tank to grow fish in? Most cities would not object to that. Podster, you're right on with the water problem...we already have shortages right here in NC...our country wells are polluted with insecticides & going dry with the amount of irrigation being done, rampant destruction of woodlands and now severe droughts in this area...rainwater harvesting is one of our main efforts at this time & our greywater system has been in effect for some time. Foggy Pagancat (Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN (Zone 6b) July 14, 2008 01:08 PM Post #5257725 Great ideas, Hatsur! Foggy, I think a lot of it will depend on seed availability - I haven't done much with saving fruit and vegetable seeds, mostly flowers, but it's something to think about, too. Ugh. There's so much to think about... Hastur Houston, TX July 14, 2008 01:25 PM Post #5257788 *blush* You guys are too kind. Foggy, you are right. We were... *searches for just the right PC phrase* ... Monetarily Challenged from Living in a Negative Financial Growth Environment. Yeah, that's it. *wanders off laughing to start researching the fish tank idea* Pagancat: Saving seeds is both easy and frustrating, but totally worth it. Some seeds are easy: let them ripen to the point of rot, get the seeds and dry them. Others, not so easy. If you are going to start doing it, though, remember to use the heirloom types and not hybrids. Hybrids will revert back to their originals and give you a lot of surprises... podster Deep East Texas, TX (Zone 8a) July 14, 2008 01:28 PM Post #5257797 I know we all know this but a gentle reminder is to acquire heirloom vegetable seed rather than hybrid. Hastur ~ I do understand the "metric tons" of rain. In March this area received 19 inches in less than 10 hours. Unfortunately this area has some large gaps of drought right in the middle of growing season. Perhaps in your area it rains more frequently as you are nearer the coast. But glad to hear you have plans to catch rainwater too. podster Deep East Texas, TX (Zone 8a) July 14, 2008 01:29 PM Post #5257802 Sorry ~ I didn't read your post just sent mine. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 14, 2008 01:34 PM Post #5257820 Every time I see something like this subject arise, I am reminded that I need to get my rear end in gear and order a better variety of heirloom seeds, and to build a solar food dryer. There is much more I could grow here if only I had some labor to help me amend the soil. Money for fetching amendments would be nice, too! What I can do is plant more fruiting bushes and trees even though trees take time to mature enough for fruit and nuts. I already have a few bushes, and I can dig those holes myself. Properly managed, my yard (1/4 acre?) could probably feed several families. Our whole property is 19 acres, and all but the house and a small yard is suitable only for forest. Too steep to even climb at my age. zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 14, 2008 02:48 PM Post #5258203 Hastur - I missed the fish tank idea and can't find it. I love so many of your ideas, especially the shoe tree and hanging vegetables. I have a about 40'x40' back yard (we aren't allowed to touch the front yard, even seasonal bulbs are strongly suggested to be planted in back yards). Most of that is lawn and patio. If it got bad enough I could take out the lawn (would do so anyway if we didn't rent), cover the patio with containers, do the upper bed in vegetables (it's going to be an ornamental garden for the time being due to the road side grass chemicals flowing down into the bed), do the wall ideas that Hastur suggested and the herb beds would either be left or replanted with vegetables. I'd like to collect rain water, and am working on doing so. Has anyone heard about it being illegal to collect rain water? My DH swears he heard something about this and wants to challenge the law. podster Deep East Texas, TX (Zone 8a) July 14, 2008 03:01 PM Post #5258287 Zhinu ~ in some states it is illegal to harvest rainwater and CO is the one that comes to mind. Not sure about WA but do check into it. If your area receives runoff, there are means of capturing the runoff that you could do. foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 14, 2008 04:18 PM Post #5258682 It is a shame that it's illegal in some places to harvest water...properly managed a harvesting system would return the captured waters to the environment. Why would they outlaw the capture rather than making rules about it's return to nature or how much you could capture each rainfall? Needs rethinking on the part of lawmakers & more intelligent ways on our part of handling what water there is. Greywater use is also outlawed in many places. Foggy msrobin Caneyville, KY (Zone 6b) July 14, 2008 11:31 PM Post #5260904 Hastur, loved all of your ideas. Please explain the shoe tree. I have in mind the shoe organizer with all the pockets that hangs on a door? I could feed me and DH with everything I grow and put up. I stock up on seed, as well as save seeds. I have rain barrels at every possible location for roof runoff. Hastur Houston, TX July 15, 2008 08:25 AM Post #5261967 Illegal to capture water? That's ... weird. I grew up in Boston, and later in Maine, then in Missouri and now live in Houston. Having laws against saving water just seems odd. Msrobin: Yes, a lot like a shoe tree. This has worked for us in the past: - Get a piece of muslin, about as long as you want to have your 'plant curtain'. You can also use gardening fabric, but we used to use muslin, since it was very cheap, strong, and could easily be washed after using it. - Fold the muslin in half, lengthwise, and sew along the long sides, as well as one of the short ones. So, if your curtain is going to be four feet long, you will now have a double muslin piece that is about 4' X 22" or so (assuming 44-45" wide muslin). - Run a few lines, lengthwise on the muslin, so that you now have a curtain like piece with 2-5 lines lengthwise. This will make long 'funnels' that are anywhere from about 11" wide to 4.25" wide. You will adjust how wide, depending on what you are going to grow. - Now run some lines on it width-wise, so that you are making squares or rectangles. Basically, the idea is that when you are done, you will have a 'quilt' that is comprised of rectangles that are however wide you need, by anywhere from about 4" deep to 8" deep or so. - Assume that the open end is the top of your curtain. - Cut the top part of the squares or rectangles, on one piece of fabric only, so that you are creating 'pockets'. Your end result will look a lot like a shoe tree. - Put some grommets in the top, not closing the top pockets, and you now can hang this. Basically, you can now fill each of the pockets with some soil, and put a bit of seed in each one. You will water it by simply hosing down the fabric, and the muslin will hold the water so that your seeds and seedlings can drink. Hang it off the edge of a balcony, and periodically water it, and you will soon have a wall of green, that will produce what you like. We grew bush peas, bush beans, radishes, and various herbs at different times with a setup like this. We had to be careful to make sure that we didn't try to grow something huge, or SUPER heavy, for obvious reasons. We also had to be careful to make sure to water regularly, so that the muslin would keep the plants happy. But for smaller plants that didn't have majorly heavy stuff on them, this was a fun setup. We also made a couple of these with an old canvas tent that we got our hands on at one time, not to mention a length of denim once. People would often give us some of the weirdest stuff, namely because they knew that we could reuse it in odd and creative ways. Hineni Sharps Chapel, TN (Zone 6b) July 15, 2008 10:47 AM Post #5262645 Hastur, you have some incredible talent and creativity in your brain - thank you for sharing! I can't sew worth a darn, or I would love to try this on a trellis-type set up right out by the kitchen door for herbs while I'm working on amending the rock that is currently pretending to be soil :) I wonder if I could actually use an old shoe tree thing? I used to see them all of the time at goodwill. Hmmm. Since I'm new to this farm and having to learn, just by looking at my neighbor's garden area, which is smaller than ours, and how abundantly it produces - I am pretty sure that I can feed us 8 months out of the year fresh veggies and fruits, and the other four from preserved foods. I don't know if I'll be able to grow grains or not, but I may try eventually. When we add chickens, that will supply eggs and meat (hopefully!). That would leave me still looking for grains, spices and dairy and salt :) We would be far more vegetarian than we are now, but rumor has it that a good sized hunk of venison can be had annually as well. If we do get goats (it's part of the plan) we could have milk and meat there as well. But only if I can grow their food, rather than having to purchase it. Still studying the angles on that set up, in some older farmstead books that I found online. Supposedly it can be done - but I'm not sure I could work a full-time job and do all this. That's considering if we still HAD jobs at this juncture. LOL! I'll also have to get better at seed saving - like, where do you GET lettuce. broccoli, cauliflower and brussells sprout seed from the plant? I've managed to successfully save pepper, tomato, canteloupe and pumpkin seed that germinated. I'll be trying saving squash seed this year, along with watermelon. Beans I suppose you just let dry on the plant, and then plant those the following year. I sure hope I have a little bit of time to get good at all of this, because some days it feels really overwhelming...LOL! Well, time for break and to go stomp the laundry and start the rinse cycle...teehee! AYankeeCat Fairfield County, CT (Zone 6b) July 15, 2008 11:55 AM Post #5262978 I'm eating lamb's quarter and purslane for salad for lunch today. Both grow as "weeds" here in my yard. (I've actually saved seeds from Lamb's Quarter as it grows really, really fast in any place that gets some sun and is full of nutrition.) In addition to saving heirloom seeds, I suggest that we make better use of the naturally growing plants that we refer to as "weeds" to help out with providing food for ourselves. foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 15, 2008 12:04 PM Post #5263012 Yeah, it seems silly not to be able to harvest water, but its OK to have a swimming pool? you get seeds for lettuce, broccoli etc by letting a few plants reach the flowering stage & set seeds...tomato seeds have to "rot" a little Hineni, don't forget the fish...you can get a bunch of protein there...an oblong galvanized horsetank can grow many fish in a small space with harvested water. If you don't have a spare wall or a balcony...take a couple of 2 x4's nailed tgr. to make a 4 x4 & make your pockets down four sides of that & suspend from the ceiling in front of a window & turn every day...just imagine what 4 of those could produce in a small space... cooperatives would undoubtedly form...they can help you get grains & salt & spices ...how big a bag of salt can you get with some of your excess? What will a dozen eggs buy? Chicory is a good coffee substitute. Acorns from some oak trees when boiled & free of their tannin can be dried & ground to make flour... Hastur, muslin is getting a little hard to find, how about old bed sheets? Foggy foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 15, 2008 12:08 PM Post #5263043 ooooo Lamb's quarters! We've got tons & I've never eaten any...raw? cooked a little? Foggy msrobin Caneyville, KY (Zone 6b) July 15, 2008 12:28 PM Post #5263127 Hastur, thank you so much for the directions! Foggy, cool idea about making to hang in a window! Yankeecat, I'm originally from Mo...you have to show me! I might try it if someone showed me how and what to pick! Hineni, best I can tell from my own observations... when you are growing broccoli and it gets really hot, it'll bolt and go to seed. When I cut all the broccoli the other day, I could see where some of the broccoli head looked a little yellow/white around the edges. It was just starting to bolt. When I soaked it in water and swished it around a bit the seeds came off and floated. I scooped them up and layed them out to dry. I'm assuming cauilflower does the same thing. When lettuce bolts, it gets real tall and flowers, then goes to seed. Carefully cut the flowers off and shake upside down and the seeds fall out. Guessing brussel sprouts do the same thing. I just startied seed saving late last year and have not planted any of the tiny seeds, so don't know for sure if I'm doing it right or not. Do you need seeds? AYankeeCat Fairfield County, CT (Zone 6b) July 15, 2008 01:06 PM Post #5263314 Re: Lamb's Quarters So far I have just used the small leaves off the top of plants less than 12" high. I just chopped them in with purslane and dressed with oil and vinegar. There are recipies on the internet for both purslane and Lamb's Quarters. If I remember correctly - Lamb's Quarters are a cousin of spinach. Hineni Sharps Chapel, TN (Zone 6b) July 15, 2008 01:28 PM Post #5263414 You mean I can eat all those 5 foot plus weeds from my garden? I must double check that this is what it is. I could have a market garden on my hands...rofl! Thanks Robin, will file that away in my 'stuff to try this summer' notebook/list/agenda thingy. Hastur Houston, TX July 15, 2008 01:49 PM Post #5263531 Foggy: I would guess that old bed sheets would work brilliantly. They're usually cotton, which is all that muslin is. If they are a bit thin, you could always double them to make the 'curtains', so that they can handle the weight of the soil and water. Hrmmm... I bet the doubling of the fabric would be great for holding the water, too. Hineni: I cannot see why a real shoe tree would not work at least partially. One thing about the cotton is that it will absorb and hold water well, so if your real shoe tree was made with plastic or polyester, it might need a little help by poking some drainage holes in it, or being careful of your watering schedule. But other than that, why not? zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 15, 2008 02:11 PM Post #5263642 Our theory is that it is illegal to collect water either A. because the corporations don't get money for it if you don’t use the city water, or B. because they are worried about the health concerns of amateurs trying drink self-collected water. I lean towards the first, which is why I wouldn't mind challenging the law. I could understand grey water easier, because if released it could be polluting, but it’s still a questionable law to me. Maybe you should have to get a permit to do it, then the health concerns could be dealt with. garden_mermaid San Francisco Bay Ar, CA (Zone 9b) July 15, 2008 03:10 PM Post #5263918 In some states, like Colorado, the water rights were defined long ago. There is a discussion of this topic on the Rocky Mountain Gardening forum from last year or so. I'll see if I can find it. Here in California, we can currently harvest rain water, although some counties own all surface water from other counties. This means if your pond fills due to rainwater runoff that travels across the surface ground, all the water in your pond is owned by the adjacent county. They have the legal right to bring in a truck and pump the water from your pond. If you fill your pond with well water, then it's yours. I don't think they've ever had to act upon that ordinance, but if the water gets scarcer, we may see some interesting new events take place. I have as yet to get a straight or consistent answer on whether my roof counts as "surface runoff". I grew over 100 lbs of vegetables in a small 50 sq ft community garden plot two years ago. Then the crop thieves began to target the garden. I've only been able to harvest 2 out of 7 crops in the past six months due to crop theft. Our community garden is discussing the best way to deal with this. This is a topic that everyone will need to address if food shortages become common. A few of my colleagues have told me that they came home from work to find all of the fruit trees stripped bare. There wasnt' a single, fig, lemon, orange, plum etc left for them. The trees were in locked, fenced backyards. An experienced group of crop thieves seems to have staked out the neighborhoods. AYankeeCat Fairfield County, CT (Zone 6b) July 15, 2008 03:14 PM Post #5263936 My girlfriend in Fallbrook loses her entire avocado crop to thieves most years. They bring in pickers and a truck when she is off the property and strip the trees. zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 15, 2008 03:16 PM Post #5263946 I can't understand that type thing. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 15, 2008 03:17 PM Post #5263950 Wow! You've all really got my mind working. I live on about 25 acres but only about 5 acres could really be used for gardening. Besides, I feel too old and decrepid to "farm " that large an area without bigger "tools" which get pretty expensive. We have a wonderful garden, small green house and some fruit trees, so can produce enough for even all our extended family. My problem is keeping up. I end up with piles of harvest that I just can't process quickly enough. I'm sure if things became economically necessary, my kids would be here to do more of the work, and they do help some now, but all the canning, freezing, drying etc. just gets beyond me. I end up giving a lot of our produce to others. I just need someone to find me more energy and time. The shoebag idea is wonderful...I'm wondering what one would do hung along one wall of my greenhouse so that I could grow some of the summer veggies (beans, cukes) earlier and have a longer harvest time. One thing I've done this year is plant smaller areas of different veggies, but more sucessions. This has really helped me not be so overwhelmed with too much harvest at once. Maybe using the shoebag, as well as my cold frame would allow me to have a greater variety over a longer period of time. Several years ago I read about someone who had set up an 'aquaponics" arrangement with three main production areas. I don't remember the details, but one was a tank where tilapia were raised. The water (with fishy fertilizer) was then run through areas where lettuce and tomatoes were grown. It seems like there was both a hydroponic as well as dirt-type gardening system which produced cleaner water that was then recirculated to the fish. I was really fascinated by the idea but have lost track of where I saw it. Has anyone out there heard of it? I've also read of using large barrels painted black, in a greenhouse, to raise tilapia as well as to absorb heat during the day and release it at night. There are so many good ideas out there I'd love to try, but I just don't get that far. I think Hastur is right in saying that by just adding a little at a time the projects eventually get done. Keep the good ideas coming! Kathy zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 15, 2008 03:24 PM Post #5263993 I've heard of that type set-up. I was once really into the idea of hydroponics. I wanted to be part of a sea colony, like a biosphere in the ocean. But, I too am not sure where I saw it. Hineni Sharps Chapel, TN (Zone 6b) July 15, 2008 04:33 PM Post #5264297 I saw a garden place online, where the guy was in an urban setting, and had fish in a pond, that drained out to his dirt garden. Is that the same thing you're thinking wind? I may still have a link if it is. It was a video, done by the gardener himself. On youtube, I think? zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 15, 2008 05:06 PM Post #5264456 Sounds a long the same lines. foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 15, 2008 06:21 PM Post #5264789 some large cities are using "waterparks" to help purify their sewage. This is possible on a small scale where harvested water is drained into a catchment of sorts with water plants & fish. the water goes thru a series of small gravel & sand pit "filters" & on out into the system as clean water. This is the method we are preparing to cleanse the greywater from our soon to be built bathhouse. Google waterparks & you'll find some good stuff. Kathy, I have the same 'keeping up' problems that you do..., your excess could be traded rather than just given away or neighbors who want to share in the largesse need to help with the canning , freezing, & drying if they want part of it...that is a reasonable trade & when I lived in Nebraska as a child, it was a common practice on the farm. Foggy zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 15, 2008 07:29 PM Post #5265050 We have several "wetland" spots in my area. Areas where rain water, especially storm run off, is filtered naturally. It also keeps the streets from flooding. There's actually a park that was made to be used in the summer and flood in the winter to deal with flooding on the streets. The best ones are set up with plants etc... the others are more or less holes with grass in them. The only problem is the chemical run off from lawns etc... We have one in our neighborhood where the frogs have issues due to the pollutants that wash down there. There are some great books on small scale (one house) grey water treatment through wetlands. Look up permaculture if you are interested. That's where I got my knowledge of it. It does take about an acre to do, but it's a great idea. Pagancat (Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN (Zone 6b) July 15, 2008 09:20 PM Post #5265732 For more on this particular subject, you can also google "reconstructed wetlands". There is a large scale project that has been in service for a while now in Phoenix called Tres Rios. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 15, 2008 10:40 PM Post #5266237 Okay, I kind of found it. I don't know how to do all the automatic links to web sites to share with you all...I'm pretty computer illiterate...but I Googled aquaponics and found there is not only an aquaponics.com with all kinds of information, but even an Aquaponics Journal. The set-up I had read about years ago was in a fellow's garage, I believe, possibly heated, but I don't know. Anyway it sounded like he just had the fish in a tank with pipes connecting to, I belive, a hydroponic lettuce production area and then pipes to a tomato growing area that involved a little more of a soil/gravel mix somewhere that filtered the water that much more. I think these were both up on a table level surface with collection areas below that the water ran into after leaving it's goodies with the plants. Once clean the water was then returned to the fish tank. I'm sure he had to have some lighting system or more of a greenhouse type roof or something, but it just always struck me as being a really good way to use and reuse without much waste. Foggy, you make me feel much better. I agree with how neighbors used to get together and help with these tasks. It seems like most of my neighbors now all have to work an extra job besides their farm, so they just as often stop by Pizza Hut as put anything up. Kind of sad really, but I also know how tired you can be at the end of such a day. I keep wondering though, if jobs keep getting cut back and cut back, there may be more people at home because they don't have any other choice, and these are the people who will most need a good way to get healthy food at a good price. Most of our overflow goes in to the working staff at the nursing home I worked at before I had to take this early retirement from nursing. Many of the aides make a pretty low salary, and most are supporting families who need healthy, fresh food. It's usually snapped up in a hurry. I've thought about getting several of them together to come over and learn how to do some basic canning, etc.. I think most of them would like to learn, but it's hard with small children, no babysitters, and little time off. The way our economy looks, I think the more we are each able to supply for ourselves, the better we're going to weather the blow. I do worry about so many of our younger generation who just haven't learned how to do any of these things. It's good to see young people on these forums and to know there are still many out there sticking to some of our old ways. Surreybrit Big Lake, MN (Zone 4a) July 15, 2008 11:23 PM Post #5266442 Wllowind Maybe if you could identify one of the aides that appreciates your overflow, you could see if she knows of 2 more on the same shift that would be interested in learning in exchange for helping you with the canning . If it worked out, one could be the designated baby sitter/childminder during the first session, each of the others taking their turn at possible later lessons. If they received one/or more of the jars produced during the lesson they would be getting the overflow while helping you to stock your own pantry.. If you had an area where the chid minder/sitter could do it at your place, and provided they didn't all have say more than 2 children each it could possibly work.. twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 16, 2008 12:02 AM Post #5266606 I am growing some hot peppers this year for my son and my new neighbor that likes them. My son took a few to work and offered to share with the others at lunch. The hispanics went wild and begged him to sell them some. He took the payroll clerk five of my biggest green tomatoes after learning she was wanting some fried. She "forced" him to take $5. I think he really wanted a date. Clear evidence that folks are lusting after good homegrown produce. I think it borders on being morally wrong to waste when so many are needy or on the edge of it. On the other hand, it would be wrong to accept gifts repeatedly without offering to help out if you made it known that you needed help. I worry about how bad things will get with this "recession". We have all lamented how disconnected folks are with their food supply and really all basic matters. If anything good comes from this squeeze maybe it will be that people are forced to slow down and rediscover what is important. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 16, 2008 12:40 AM Post #5266738 Surrey, that's really a good idea...I just have to get with it and get it organized. Maybe I can aim for tomato time as that's easy to do and something almost everyone appreciates. We're pretty well set up for kids out here as I keep my two very young granddaughters most days. I'd just have to make sure there was adult supervision as we do have horses, chickens, ducks etc. that can be tempting for kids, but not always safe for either party if the kids don't know the rules. I think we could make it a very positive experience. Twiggy, I too am hoping that this "recession" (I guess we can call it that), will help people focus on what's important and how good life can be when lived at a little more simple level. I do believe that if we did have to supply our own food etc., we'd learn to all be more supportive of eachother, be it extended family, neighbors or friends. Trading, like Foggywalk suggested, could become a much more efficient way of helping provide the services and products we can't manage on our own. Even now the young man who patches my tires...I drive on lots of gravel road...usually charges me fresh eggs and canning jars for his help. He can't get away to auctions, which I often attend, but he and his wife do lots of canning. Sadly, you wouldn't believe the number of good canning jars that go for next to nothing at the auctions around here. I can pick them up for him for much less then my tire repair would normally have cost. Kathy zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 16, 2008 01:31 AM Post #5266855 willowwind - you might want to check this out http://davesgarden.com/faq/forums/#172 It's the Dave's Garden FAQ and covers most basic things like adding links and quotes etc... garden_mermaid San Francisco Bay Ar, CA (Zone 9b) July 16, 2008 01:41 AM Post #5266870 Here is the post that explains a bit of Colorado' s water use laws: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=2653878 That post came from this thread in the Rocky Mountain Gardening forum. Those folks are gardening with water shortages most of the time, so there are some good tips on that thread: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/635159/ I love the hanging plant curtain concept Hastur! If only I had better lighting from my windows! Have you seen the video on sack gardens from SendACow.org? It sounds like a related concept. The vegetables from the sack gardens are helping many families in Africa prevent malnutrition. John Jeavons had recommended potatoes as a way to get the needed calories from a small garden. He didn't seem to think grains were practical on a small scale. I can't seem to find the thread that mentioned the Vermont Bakery that was asking the community members to plant a 10 x10 ft (100 sq ft) plot of heirloom grains so that bakery might have locally produced wheat. It's too late in the year to plant the spring wheats now, but I'm planning to put a portion of one bed into fall/winter wheat, just to see how much I will actually harvest in relation to the seed planted. If we do have to go the "victory garden" route to feed ourselves, hopefully we can organize our communities such that those who can grow will grow, and those who cannot grow can help with the drying, preserving, etc. Share the labour, each to their own abilities. zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 16, 2008 02:00 AM Post #5266899 Here is how to grow potatoes in garbage cans http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/825325/ darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 16, 2008 02:06 AM Post #5266910 g_m, I just planted some rye. Not much, and certainly not enough to eat if it even grows. I did it following some suggestions for a better balanced microcosm in my garden. I might consider another grain to grow over winter in the entire garden... Hastur, the shoe tree idea is clever! garden_mermaid San Francisco Bay Ar, CA (Zone 9b) July 16, 2008 02:13 AM Post #5266919 I'd like to grow some Emmer/Einkorn and some of the heritage Italian grains. Not yet organized enough for that endeavour, but getting there. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 16, 2008 02:44 AM Post #5266955 What's the growing season for them? garden_mermaid San Francisco Bay Ar, CA (Zone 9b) July 16, 2008 02:49 AM Post #5266969 From the Bountiful Gardens website, they appear to be spring planted. http://www.bountifulgardens.org/products.asp?dept=4&pagenumb... darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 16, 2008 03:05 AM Post #5266987 Okay, educate me, please. That site (above) says: Emmer Wheat, Ancient Triticum dicoccon Between einkorn and modern hard wheats genetically. Emmer, or Durum, wheat is the premiere wheat for pasta... And this site http://www.riverorganica.com/About Emmer.htm says: Emmer is not Emmer is not Emmer The US government has “adopted and restricted” the word emmer (much like what they have done with the word “organic”) when they hybridized emmer with Durham. When hybridization takes place, the crops are always infertile. Emmer pollinates other tetraploids; however the resulting grain is infertile and will not sprout. It takes years and years to hybridize emmer with another grain to make it fertile, and of course, there will always be HMW and LMW gluten replacing the MMW gluten. The grain can no longer be an emmer – by definition—however, the US government can take any word it wants and restrict its use. Author’s opinion only. So, is it Durham or not? garden_mermaid San Francisco Bay Ar, CA (Zone 9b) July 16, 2008 03:37 AM Post #5267035 My understanding is that Emmer is an older variety of durham wheat. In Italy it is called "farro". The farro I have purchased at Italian markets looks and tastes differently from the modern durham wheat sold in the US. If the US gov wants to "adopt and restrict" the use of the work emmer, then I'll stick with the name farro. Quoted: Today emmer is primarily a relict crop in mountainous areas. Its value lies in its ability to give good yields on poor soils, and its resistance to fungal diseases such as stem rust that are prevalent in wet areas. Emmer is grown in Morocco, Spain (Asturias), the Carpathian mountains on the border of the Czech and Slovak republics, Albania, Turkey, Switzerland and Italy. Italy is an interesting case as, uniquely, emmer cultivation is well established and even expanding. In the mountainous Garfagnana area of Tuscany emmer (known as farro) is grown by farmers as an IGP (Indicazione Geografica Protetta) product, with its geographic identity protected by law. Production is certified by a co-operative body, the Consorzio Produttori Farro della Garfagnana. IGP-certified farro is widely available in health food shops across Europe, and even in some British supermarkets. The demand for Italian farro has led to competition from non-certified farro, grown in lowland areas and often consisting of a different wheat species, spelt (Triticum spelta). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmer http://www.thepassionategourmet.com/farro/ http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/farming/stockcrop/wheat/wheathi... http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1996/V3-156.ht... We had a discussion about the wheat stem rust that is a growing plague in many countries. The rust seems to be an issue with the modern wheat hybrids and not the ancient wheat varieties. This message was edited Jul 16, 2008 12:42 AM msrobin Caneyville, KY (Zone 6b) July 16, 2008 07:45 AM Post #5267361 Zhinu, thank you, I needed that info, too. G_M, as always, I learn so much from you! How cool is that about the bakery! I'm interested in growing grains, but...I don't know where to get seed, nor what kind, how to grow it or what to do with when it's grown and what I'd need to process it. Sure love these discussions to help me learn! darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 16, 2008 09:28 AM Post #5267853 Thanks, g_m. I noticed somewhere that a chef buying farro grown on a farm in the pacific nw says it tastes better than the Italian farro. I have read about these 'ancient grains' since just before Y2K but have only tasted a few... and tried to grow none. Yet. foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 16, 2008 10:31 AM Post #5268130 We have several small bakeries around here who specialize in mixed grain & specialty breads for Charlotte's fresh markets. It might be a good idea to question local bakeries on the possibility of their doing the same as this Vermont bakery..."We'll buy your organic grain & give you a bread discount" signs at local farmers markets might bring quite a response...& local providers would lessen the impact of shipping. We are planting a 100 x 100 patch of grain this fall just to see how its done without heavy machinery...We found a good scythe handle at a farm auction & blades are available. Thanks from me, too G_M I hadn't the foggiest idea of emmer wheat & farro, but that's what we'll go with in the spring. Don't forget oats, guys, wonderful oatmeal from cracked or coarsely ground oats...little processing required. How much would a 10 by 10 patch of oats produce? now that Kellogg's has fallen prey to the gm sugar imp...good wholesome oatmeal sounds delicious. Foggy mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 19, 2008 09:43 PM Post #5287947 Hastur, I love your ideas. You seem to really have thought things through. It gives me hope for those that do not live in a right to farm area like I do. We are supplying more of our own food each year, what with outbreaks of various pathogens, genetic engineering, and (apparently coming soon) cloning. So far we've got most of the vegetables and herbs covered. Next year, we will start some fruit and hopefully raise some chickens and one larger animal. It is a lot of work, and if you figure in the cost of our labor, I do not think we save much money. However, I am most concerned about my family's health and long-term safety. Not to mention the fact that as this thread stresses, we may someday need to provide for our own nutrition. On a brighter note, all of this home-grown stuff just tastes sooooo much better than anything that can be bought at the store! GrammysGardenAZ Cochise, AZ (Zone 8b) July 19, 2008 11:19 PM Post #5288525 And chickens love leftover fresh veggies. Gave mine some summer squash tonight! mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 20, 2008 12:36 AM Post #5288884 I've thought about the fact that you can "recycle" your leftover veggies by feeding them to the chickens. Right now, if there are leftovers I try to get the dogs to eat them. Not always their favorite treat, though. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 20, 2008 11:05 PM Post #5293671 Actually, I even recycle most of my weeds with the chickens. I don't like them out all over the yard too much because they scratch up my flower beds, but their run is along two sides of my garden, so as I weed I just toss everything over the fence and they just love it. Plenty of extra grass, dandelions, etc. and their yolks stay so yellow they're almost orange. When I pull out the old peas, beans, etc. it all goes into the chickens first. By the time they eat what they like, scratch it around and poop on it a bit, it turns into nice compost right in the pen. I do shovel things out and let them sit for awhile before putting back on the garden as chicken manure can be pretty hot. I also think I've had much fewer bug problems this way. I'm sure many bugs go with the plants and any bug eggs are probably eaten too, instead of being left to hatch. Kathy mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 21, 2008 12:18 AM Post #5294146 Thanks for the helpful info, Kathy! Now I will know how to raise healthier chickens and make even better compost, all at the same time. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 21, 2008 01:51 PM Post #5296677 Mametcalf, I would really encourage the chickens, if that's something you're considering. Ours have been just the greatest blessing, and I even love to sit out by the chicken pen and just listen to "the girls" talk while I read or sew. I noticed you're from Michigan, so thought if you're interested in egg production I'd suggest you might try Barred Rocks to start with. They can be butchered as well, but they're great egg producers in cold weather areas. We're not so awfully cold here I realize, but when our neighbors have no eggs during the coldest part of winter, we're always getting plenty. They are a fairly mild mannered, bigger bird, and really very pretty. We've also tried Buff Orpingtons, which on the whole were good too through the winter, but bless their hearts, they seemed to be true blondes...couldn't reliably find their way back to the chicken house at night when they were let out. We'd find them still wandering in the horse pasture or the barn. That's never been a problem with the Rocks. We have preditors about at night so just leaving them go on their own wasn't a great option, but chasing got old! Kathy gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 21, 2008 02:17 PM Post #5296776 Growing a grain crop. I noticed some one mentioned oats, but I didn't see any mention of barley and buckwheat. Buckwheat is a very fast crop. You know its hard to find oats that some company has not laced with high fructose corn syrup, or brown sugar. I think growing your own is an excellent defensive idea. I have to learn how. I eat mine straight with soymilk and raisins and walnuts. No sugar needed - oats are sweet already. A gynocologist mentioned on Oprah Friday (I think a re=run) that older people do not digest wheat so well. This is also a tenet of macrobiotics - so they advocate rice for people who need to heal from "civilized" eating. I guess in the US you couldn't grow rice unless you lived in Minnesota. (The Ojibwe Indians still grow wild rice on the lakes there.) rtl850nomore Glendale/Parks, AZ July 21, 2008 02:25 PM Post #5296824 More than 100 varieties of rice are currently produced commercially in the US, primarily in six states: Arkansas, Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri, and California. foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 21, 2008 02:57 PM Post #5297009 oh! on another thread someone gave me the link to growing wild rice in pots...put out by the University of Minnesota who are encouraging people to grow it. Now I can't find the thread, but google growing wild rice. In Revolutionary days rice was grown in the lowlands of South Carolina & around Savannah...still is, I think. Foggy libellule Fountain, FL (Zone 8b) July 21, 2008 03:17 PM Post #5297114 I didn't realize that rice was grown in so many areas here in the states. Oddly enough, SC isn't even on this list but it was a huge producer during the civil war era (if my memory of history serves me correctly). This site has a bit of info. http://www.usarice.com/processing/production.html "More than 80% of the rice consumed in the United States is grown here. We are also one of the largest exporters of rice in the world. In fact, the United States is the fourth largest exporter of rice worldwide." gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 21, 2008 03:43 PM Post #5297276 Ive not heard of anyone growing rice as a home food crop - except the Ojibwe. I guess that would be the least of our worries! One way to maximize home food production is to plant a fall crop of vegetables. In Alabama some crops only grow in the fall, not in the summer heat. Here is a seed planting list: http://plantanswers.tamu.edu/fallgarden/falldirect.html libellule Fountain, FL (Zone 8b) July 21, 2008 04:44 PM Post #5297592 Same here, Gloria. Alot of vegetables just wilt and dry up no matter how much mulch and water they have here. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 21, 2008 04:55 PM Post #5297653 libellule: Do you plant a fall/winter garden? libellule Fountain, FL (Zone 8b) July 21, 2008 05:00 PM Post #5297677 I use to. I've spent alot of time out of state the past few years so haven't been planting too much. I am actually working on one rignt now. I should have time to get most of what I want (and then some) to come in before a freeze. rtl850nomore Glendale/Parks, AZ July 21, 2008 05:04 PM Post #5297709 Same in Arizona, spring and fall are the growing seasons for veggies. I will put my fall garden in the first of September. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 21, 2008 05:07 PM Post #5297722 rtl850nomore: What do you put in your fall garden? rtl850nomore Glendale/Parks, AZ July 21, 2008 08:30 PM Post #5298741 Cucumbers, squash, broccoli, lettuce, cabbage, cauliflower, onions, beets, spinach, carrots, and green beans. Basically everything except tomatoes, corn, and melons. The eggplant and bell peppers will start producing again when it cools down. They just mature very small in the heat so I pick them off to let the plants get through the heat of the summer. Right now all I have is jalapenos, armenian cucumbers, zucchini, crookneck, patty pan, yard long beans and some spaghetti squash that I harvested last month. I have sweet potatoes too, but they will not be ready until November. In the meantime I am working my soil by digging holes, dumping in kitchen scraps, spraying with EM1 and covering the hole back up. By September I should have some mighty fine soil. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 21, 2008 08:46 PM Post #5298848 That sounds like a scrumptious garden, Jayne! Do you also grow any fruits? rtl850nomore Glendale/Parks, AZ July 21, 2008 09:26 PM Post #5299131 Yes, Darius. I have apples and peaches and the most wonderful Ruby Red grapefruit. I also have a young lime tree, tangerine, and pomegranite that are too young to produce yet. My neighbor has oranges and lemons so we trade. The apples were pretty prolific this year and I made quite a bit of applesauce and froze it. I found some red hots and turned some of it pink for the young'ins next door. In addition, I made apple pie filling and froze that too. Most of the plants in my yard produce food as do all of the trees. I am trying for edible landscaping even with the HOA rules. So far...so good. What about you Darius, what is in your July garden. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 22, 2008 12:52 AM Post #5300203 Being new at growing veggies (other than tomatoes and summer squash), my early summer garden this year allowed me to try a small amount of broccoli, savoy cabbage, romaine, brussels sprouts, kohlrabi, leeks and garlic, just to see if I could grow them. Well, I have grown leeks and garlic before... just not this many! Now I have hot and bell peppers (doing poorly), several varieties of heirloom/OP tomatoes, heirloom Kentucky Wonder pole beans, trying a few lentils, cannellini beans, yukon gold potatoes, Rose Finn Apple fingerling potatoes, baby blue hubbard squash, butternut squash and of course summer zucchini and yellow crooknecks. I increased my asparagus bed this year, added horseradish and jerusalem artichokes and several more biennial and perennial herbs. Rosemary won't survive here outside, and my cats destroy it inside. In fruits, so far this year I have acquired 2 figs, an elderberry, 2 gooseberries, 3 black currants, and lots of red raspberries. Black raspberries are all that's grown around here and I have several of them I transplanted along with a small start of blackberries. Also planted a start of hops. The best plum I ever tasted was one I picked off a tree last month, eating it promptly! A green-leafed Aycock Asian plum. I expect to buy one before the summer is over. I'm planning sea buckthorn, red currants, aronia, Nanking cherries, quince and blueberries next. I grew up (off and on) in south Florida and I sorely miss fresh, good tropical fruits... avocado, mango, guava, papaya, lychee and of course, citrus. Nothing like going out the back door to pick an orange to snack on! rtl850nomore Glendale/Parks, AZ July 22, 2008 09:16 AM Post #5301002 I wish I could grow berries here. They say blackberries will grow but I dunno. I tried once and failed. foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 22, 2008 12:57 PM Post #5302079 rt1850...aronia melanocarpa "Viking" grows in zone 9 & you might find a microclimate niche where it would do well...very high in antioxidents & very pretty, too. Berries are used like currents...make good pie, jams, (& wine, too). This was bred up from the wild aronia melanocarpa as an orchard plant in Europe. LazyS'S Farm Nursery, online only. -Foggy darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 22, 2008 01:43 PM Post #5302267 Here's what I like about my yard even right now... Walked out my back door about 20' and picked these wild black raspberries, just beginning to ripen. I could have picked a gallon if I'd had on more clothing protection... Click the image for an enlarged view. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 22, 2008 01:49 PM Post #5302294 Even up here in Kansas I put out a fall garden, although I'm more limited in what has time to grow. I am going to look for more ways to extend a fall harvest further into the cold weather, and I think that shoebag idea in my greenhouse might work. I've also had good luck using my cold frame 'til November, then replanting for spring. I have straw bales on 3 sides with the south open so it stays quite warm into the late fall. Does anyone have Asian Pears growing in their yards? I planted two several years ago because I love them and I heard they will store for a long time. We've only had enough to munch a bit in the fall so far, but this year I'm going to have a good crop and need to know how to best store them. Kathy willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 22, 2008 01:51 PM Post #5302304 Wow, Darius! Your picture went up while I was typing. Those are beautiful. I have a small bush, but I just get a few. What helps yours grow so well? foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 22, 2008 01:58 PM Post #5302327 oh Darius...how luscious! You did put on long sleeves & get the rest? We've got plenty of wild blackberries, but no raspberries... -F darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 22, 2008 03:35 PM Post #5302770 Nope, I haven't picked more... YET. Only about 25% or less are ripe so far anyway. That quart or so of berries cost me at least a quart of sweat... I'm just now drying. Kathy... Those are wild berries, growing just up the hill behind my house a few feet... I do nothing to grow them. It could be just whatever nutrients wash down the hill and get caught in the tall grass/weeds that feeds them. The ones in the shade are substantially larger and juicier. BTW, I lived in Wichita years ago; family was from the Concordia area, granddaddy graduated from college in Manhattan, later coached basketball in Dodge City when he was still single. As to Asian plums... aside from what I noted above about the Aycock Asian plum, I know nothing except they store well. libellule Fountain, FL (Zone 8b) July 22, 2008 06:16 PM Post #5303527 Darius, Those are nice looking rasberries. I wonder if they'll grow here? (zone 8b) I bet Joci could grow them at her place in TN. I'll have to ck into it. Jackie darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 22, 2008 07:21 PM Post #5303903 Well, poop. I just noticed as I was rinsing the berries... I only looked at the first few berries I picked, and those WERE black raspberries. However, most of the berries I picked are blackberries... I was busy watching the thorns! This is the first time I've climbed up the hill to pick berries since I moved in. I think Jocelyn could grow them in Crossville... rtl850nomore Glendale/Parks, AZ July 22, 2008 08:38 PM Post #5304328 Thanks foggy, I will look into that berry. Darius those berries look wonderful. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 22, 2008 08:46 PM Post #5304373 Foggy, do you grow aronia? It is on my List. Pagancat (Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN (Zone 6b) July 22, 2008 08:47 PM Post #5304384 We have wild blackberries here, and they are *awful*. I had hoped last year that they were just bad due to the drought conditions, but they were just as bad, last week. Blek. The Michigan raspberries I picked as a kid... mmm mmmm mmmm ... foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 22, 2008 09:54 PM Post #5304758 Darius, I've only tasted some of the wine made from the berries by a friend of my son, delicious! That convinced me to find out more & finally i decided I must have that one in one of my woods edge...I am going to combine them with hazlenuts in a hedge at the top of our property... BUT...My plans for them must be delayed because of my decision to buy a wood stove...that's going to take all of my discretionary money for 6 months so I can't tell you anything about their habits, etc. until next year...lol...one step at a time as always F mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 22, 2008 10:36 PM Post #5304999 I'm in Michigan and you are right, the raspberries AND blackberries are delicious here. We are starting to pick them now. They grow wild in the county parks behind our home and we pick lots every year. The kids love them and they make great jam. Hadn't thought of wine, but that does sound good. Now that is a deal you can't beat - all of the berries are free, and we don't even have to take care of them. Although my husband did go out and trim up a lot of the bushes closest to our home - they were blocking the trails, plus we got horribly scratched trying to get to the berries. It's a lot nicer now that they are cut back, plus they've got more berries. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 23, 2008 12:26 AM Post #5305562 Oh...I'm so jealous!!! Those kind of things just don't grow wild, at least in this part of Kansas. I worked for many summers in the Colorado mountains where we did have wild raspberries that were yummy. Had to keep an eye open for bears though. Do you ever have trouble with that? Darius, what a small world. I live not too far north of Wichita - maybe 30 miles - and spent 25 years out in Dodge City, though I'm sure it wasn't when your grandaddy was there. Western Kansas has its own beauty, but I am glad to be back in this neck of the woods...oops! Maybe this neck of the prairie! Kathy zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 23, 2008 12:45 AM Post #5305641 darius - What are black raspberries? It seems like a contradiction, but I keep hearing about them. I think that if we were to try to live off what "we" grew we need to be growing rice, barley, wheat, or the like. We would need bread, storable filler and other things we use grains for now. Maybe those with lots of land could grow grain and trade it to those of us that can grow herbs and veggies, but have conditions that would make growing grain hard. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 23, 2008 12:58 AM Post #5305673 No bears, Kathy. We live in Mid-Michigan, which is the middle of the lower peninsula. I know that there are black bears in the UP, probably in the northern part of the lower as well. We've got deer, coyotes, and raccoons. The coons can be mean. And they definitely compete with us for our garden goodies. There have been years that they have gotten pretty much all of our corn. foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 23, 2008 08:57 AM Post #5306443 I like black raspberries better than red ones. ..any nursery that sells red ones will sell black ones also...not so bitter as blackberries & a little heartier than the red. Not quite so delicate. My mom grew the black 'cause they did better in Nebraska...yeah, I'm a prairie girl, too. Down here in the south, there are still folks that keep "coon dogs" & help keep the population down. They hunt at night & you can hear those hounds baying for miles. when they tree one, you won't sleep until that coon has been shot. When we have a "normal" spring & late winter rains...the blackberries are good, when it's dry...they're not...We have what is called a "blackberry winter" in this area...that is a late frost that comes on when the blackberries are blooming. Foggy gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 23, 2008 09:21 AM Post #5306526 If you ever get to Red Bay Alabama you will see The Coon Dog Cemetery. It was featured in the film Sweet Home Alabama with Reese Witherspoon - an Alabama girl! But it is a real cemetery and I go there every time I get to that part of Alabama. The little stones have a tale about the dog, and usually the dogs collar is fixed to his tomb stone - all worn and tattered. A sad place to go, but a real tribute to these animals who have been some coon hunters "best friend". darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 23, 2008 09:24 AM Post #5306537 Black raspberries don't really taste like red raspberries, nor like blackberries either. I like them! Here's some information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubus_occidentalis We do have black bears here but generally in the more remote areas; I'm told we also have coyotes but I have seen neither... just deer, deer, deer, skunks, groundhogs and rabbits mostly. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 23, 2008 12:28 PM Post #5307473 We have a German Shorthaired Pointer that we've never been able to successfully train as a bird hunter (he did teach my beagles to point, though). A couple of years ago he showed his true talent as a natural coon dog. He's prone to wandering, so we keep him on a lead in the yard or in a large kennel. He has broken off of the lead, which is thick steel cable, any time there has been a coon nearby. Once, he treed one while on his lead. Like you said, foggywalk, he let out a series of unearthly howls until my husband went outside and shot the coon. I would love to visit the coon dog cemetery, Gloria - I think that is the sort of place my Hans would like to be put to rest, even though he is SUPPOSED TO BE a bird dog! Right now, all of our pets rest at the back of our property - even the snake and a mouse! This message was edited Jul 23, 2008 2:38 PM gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 23, 2008 12:54 PM Post #5307597 Yes. I have a little cemetery too. I gave the rabbit that my dog killed a little space of his own. I didn't want him to spend his afterlife running from dog spirits! The Coon Dog Cemetery is so touching because the messages on those stones are from their owners - the coon hunters. Not a class of people I had ever considered to be that poetic or to be deep thinkers. But, that shows I am forever in need of broadening my horizons! libellule Fountain, FL (Zone 8b) July 24, 2008 05:57 PM Post #5314136 Gloria, Spending all night in the woods with nothing but your coon dogs give ya alot of time to think about things..meaning of life and all that sort of thing. Poets in the makin'. My son in law raises award winning Red Bone hounds (dark, dark red) and let me tell you, the are the some beautiful dogs. Great bloodlines. I love hearing them baying all night. There's something soothing about it. Jackie gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 24, 2008 06:01 PM Post #5314163 I learned something about man and dog, reading those epitaphs to the beloved coon dogs. This message was edited Jul 24, 2008 6:02 PM foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 24, 2008 06:46 PM Post #5314400 Couldn't live without my dogs, never been without a good dog for my whole life...We have a lovely Weimaraner who was rescued from a puppy mill...she was a mama. Lived her whole life without a name or any human interaction. It's taken her almost two years to learn about playing. Boy! is she protective of us! Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 24, 2008 07:46 PM Post #5314686 The dogs are the best that life has to offer. We have dogs, hillbilly cats and fish - oops need to feed the fish. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 24, 2008 07:53 PM Post #5314731 I seem to have outgrown or alienated all my human relationships. My dogs still think Im O.K. Just keep those Morro Bones coming! Well, to get back on track, what will the dogs eat in the new economy? zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 24, 2008 08:06 PM Post #5314800 gloria125 - hunted or farmed meat and grains? gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 24, 2008 08:12 PM Post #5314834 Im having trouble with this even now as a vegetarian. I buy them ground beef at the super market. Not as a regular diet, but just so they have meat protein once in a while. I told the butcher what I was doing and he offered to give me a male chow. Guess he thought I would give him a good home. Dogs are not vegetarians. zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 24, 2008 08:16 PM Post #5314859 And cats are even less so. garden_mermaid San Francisco Bay Ar, CA (Zone 9b) July 24, 2008 09:17 PM Post #5315223 Dogs are omnivores. I switched my Golder Retriever to a lacto-ovo vegetarian diet when he started have skin problems and tumours at two years of age. That cleared up all the hot spots. He would get supplemental meat snacks leftover from human dinners from time to time, but mostly the veggie meals I cooked for him. Beautiful coat and high energy after that. Started to slow down at 12 years, passed on at 14yrs. That's longer than many goldens make it these days. Cats are obligate carnivores, although I have one who loves to eat red leaf lettuce with her flesh meals. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 24, 2008 09:23 PM Post #5315259 I had a cat who loved corn on the cob and baked beans. She would do anything to get ahold of either of them. It must have been good for her because I finally had to have her put to sleep at the age of 21, but her only ailment was severe arthritis. Kathy zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 24, 2008 09:24 PM Post #5315266 Mine love cheetoes, gold fish (the cracker), cheese (so I guess they like the flavor of cheese, never thought about that before) and animal crackers. I'll see if I can find the picture of Koshka walking around with a lion in her mouth. So we have to keep these put away. My last two would claw through plastic wrappers to get to bread. My friend had a cat who would roll cantaloupe out of the fruit bowl, off the counter, and, if it didn't break, down the stairs in order to eat it. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 24, 2008 09:56 PM Post #5315520 My cat likes kidney beans... just a few... unless she can con me out of chicken, fish, or the yolk remains of my over-easy eggs. Actually I have 2 indoor/outdoor cats, both prefer raw meat which I seldom give them. Gracie is an outside cat who came with the house. She's spayed and quite loveable but my big, old, grouchy cat would tear her apart if she was allowed inside. I fret over what I would feed them in a lurch... probably cooked rice mixed with a little of the meats or fish I have canned for them. By the time that runs out, I'll probably be out of food too. I wonder how fire-roasted cat tastes? Yuck!! garden_mermaid San Francisco Bay Ar, CA (Zone 9b) July 24, 2008 10:06 PM Post #5315577 Fire roasted rat? zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 24, 2008 10:22 PM Post #5315670 garden_mermaid - I've heard it's not bad. You can purchase it in India. :o) The geese that are so fat they can't fly down by Capital Lake would be on my menu first. I always wondered why the homeless didn't hunt and cook them. Then deer would be second. Might be a bit hard, but I bet I could do it. There are a lot here in town. Then Shellfish from the Sound, I don't trust the water, but if I'm that hungry I'll take the chemicals. I might try hunting other geese, but that takes skill. Right time of year I could get salmon down at the river, might be able to come up with small fish other times. I'd have to be pretty desperate before I'd eat rat, raccoon, crow, frog, cat or dog. I like them too much. Seagull, pigeon, or bugs would be just above the afore mentioned list, too nasty. Eagles and Hawks are too hard to catch. I'm sure there are other options I'd notice if I got to that point, but we actually live in a pretty good area for non-farmed meat if push comes to shove. We've actually been talking about going hunting. We want to get a rifle, in case everything does go to hell, and we want to show DSD that meat comes from animals, not already plastic wrapped from the super market. At the moment she's all into it. I actually refereed a debate about hunting between her and the girl I watch on Tuesday. In general I think that if you're not willing to kill an animal, you probably should be a vegetarian. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 24, 2008 10:31 PM Post #5315716 I'm with the Native Americans... only kill what you will eat. And honor it and thank it first. zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 24, 2008 10:44 PM Post #5315798 That's basically what I was saying. I'm not saying you have to kill all your meat, it's impratical for most of up in the modern world, but if you won't kill something that you are going to eat then you're not respecting the meats scrafice. I also prefer to buy from farmers market/co-op/butcher shop because less meat is wasted, but I do buy at supermarkets, once again many things I'd like to do are impractial in the modern world. It always depresses me when I think about how many animals we kill and then waste, and how many people don't even think about the fact that their roast comes from a cow, much less thank the cow for that roast. When was the last time you sat down to dinner and had grace include "we thank this turkey for giving up it's life so that we may have turkey"? Just in general waste drives me nuts. I've started feeding the bread crusts to the crows, DSD won't eat them unless forced and I hate throwing them out. I really want a compost system that will work for me so we can use the green bits we run down the garbage disposal. I feel I waste so much and then I look at our society and I want to cry. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 24, 2008 11:12 PM Post #5315952 zhinu - I agree with your philosophy on eating meat. We hunt for deer, whatever birds are out there and in season, rabbit, and the occasional squirrel. We also fish and catch frogs and crayfish. The rule for all of our kids has always been: you kill it, you clean it, you eat it. This has taught all of them respect for life, and yes, we do give thanks to the animal. At the moment, we are on a tight budget and cannot afford locally raised meat. When we good afford it, we did split a cow and pig with family members. We went and met our animal and were assured that it was treated well and had a happy, if brief, life. Which is more than one can say for commercially raised meat. But this is the way I grew up. My grandparents had livestock and we named cows, pigs, and chickens. Then we asked who we were having for dinner that night. We knew that the animal was ultimately destined to be food, but enjoyed interacting with them while they were on the farm. zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 25, 2008 01:12 AM Post #5316356 mametcalf - that's the way it should be. Hastur Houston, TX July 25, 2008 07:58 AM Post #5316934 I think that in the world where we have to supply our own food, there will end up being barter systems. A few people will grow fruits and vegetables, and one would raise poultry (and possibly rats - they grow fast, are omnivores, and can be bred VERY quickly). A small back yard can grow enough food to feed a LOT of people, if managed properly. A slightly larger one can grow many poultry, and provide eggs and fertilizer to trade to the ones growing veggies and fruits. Toss in a few people that can make stuff, or trade good service (sharpening stuff, fixing stuff, figuring out how to make the engineering work, etc.) and you now have the basis for a small community. Now, just to mix it up a little, have one kid in there that is raising rats. Yes, rats. There is good protein source for whomever needs it, including the dogs and (especially) the cats. The dogs would keep the unwanted critters out of the gardens (birds, squirrels, etc) and the cats would catch and eat small rodents and roaches (I'm in Texas - we are CONSTANTLY battling roaches). The rats would eat a little of the vegetation scrap to grow on (omnivores from hell), and breed like crazy. This does not include any sort of input from outside of a very small area. So, no cows, deer, pigs, or other large critters. It assumes that we are working within a very urban environment, but with a slightly limited scope, as people move out or die off, because of the other factors that could lead to people needing to produce their own food. msrobin Caneyville, KY (Zone 6b) July 25, 2008 08:10 AM Post #5316974 And life comes full circle...isn't this the way it used to be long ago? Hastur Houston, TX July 25, 2008 08:19 AM Post #5317008 Actually, yes, a very long time ago. As people needed to gather for larger communities, to fend off other communities, the systems became more specialized, though. There is a movie, that is one of the Masters of Horror series, "Tooth and Nail". For the ones that don't watch this kind of thing (pretty much all of you, I would guess *grin*), it opens with the following reasons for the apocalypse that is the premise of the story: "When we thought about how the world would end, we never thought this would happen. We imagined a meteor smashing our planet, or terrible wars that would release a plague that would kill us all. "The truth however, is so much more mundane, that although there were warnings, we never saw it coming. "We ran out of gas." At that point, the story is about people living in a world without vehicles. And yes, they have to figure out how to work on their own in the very way that we are speculating about now. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 25, 2008 09:44 AM Post #5317352 Good story, Hastur. Frankly I'm more likely to believe it will be: "We ran out of (potable) water." Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 25, 2008 10:59 AM Post #5317752 In 1979, I was stationed at a Coast Guard Loran transmitting station, Marcus Island Japan. At some point during the year that I was there, there was a two part "stick" High frequency antenna which had to be replaced. Not wanting to waste anything, even if it would no longer function as intended, We used the bottom half for a mast and the top half for the boom, Using an old boat trailer, that was modified (welded) a front weel from an old golf cart and a steering system that was foot controlled. We built a "wind cart" I cannot remember what we used for a sail, but I think it was a tarp of some kind. The only paved surface on the entire island was the runway & we would take turns (when not on watch) running the cart up and down the runway. It was only used for planes about two days out of the week. I am getting old. Hineni Sharps Chapel, TN (Zone 6b) July 25, 2008 11:16 AM Post #5317821 You're not getting old Dyson, you're just gaining life experience! :D twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 25, 2008 11:42 AM Post #5317919 Dyson I am plagued with noise from 4 wheelers. There's a county maintained drainage ditch bordering 2 sides of my property. It really is useless other than for breeding skeeters but the county has essentially created a nice dirt road on the far side and about 20 acres of woods. Evidently I'm the only one it bothers. They rip and roar all hours of the day and into the night. I wish they'd discover wind carts. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 25, 2008 11:53 AM Post #5317969 When I came back from that island, I presented my stepfather (retired Navy) with a zippo lighter that had the likeness of the island and the name of the station engraved in it. My stepfather passed away in 1996, and recently my mother handed me the lighter, still in the origanal box and asked me if I would like to have it back. It has never been used or even filled with fluid. It stares back at me from my computer desk, still never filled or used. and still in the box that I bought it in. Time goes on, but some things should never change. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 25, 2008 11:56 AM Post #5317981 Neat, Dyson. When I first lived on the river in Annapolis, it would freeze over in winter. There would often be ice boats out there sailing along... fun to watch. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 25, 2008 12:04 PM Post #5318010 The "quads" here use the street infront of the house. They are not licensed vehicles, but the local police have better things to contend with - there are infact doughnut shops nearby. The only time that it is a problem, is when they run late at night and we have to be up early for work. Has not happened lately (thankfully) cause for awhile it was looking like war was about to break out. I should build another wind cart, they are quiet and a lot of fun. And really cheap to operate. Where is the downside? darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 25, 2008 12:39 PM Post #5318171 Riding a wind cart to the store could make for an interesting ride, esp. if you have to wait for the wind to pick-up to come home. Plus, highways are not made for a vehicle that tacks into the wind! But just think, in a severe situation like we have been discussing here, a wind cart would provide transportation you don't have to feed. :) Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 25, 2008 12:53 PM Post #5318252 Fournatley the wind blew across the runway most of the time, and as anyone who has sailed will attest, the fastest point is the broad reach or across the wind, not with or against it, some boats will track a little faster slightly into or with the wind but "dead across" is the expected fastest line. I really love to sail and it is one of the things that I have not done for so many years now. Hey the dw still lets me cook once in a while, like every night that she wants to eat. twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 25, 2008 02:34 PM Post #5318631 I should build another wind cart, they are quiet and a lot of fun. And really cheap to operate. Where is the downside? Remember when folks made things routinely? In times past people made and repaired things and took pride from accomplishment. The better it worked and the cheapest fix were a big deal. Now it's all about taking pride in spending the most and often for nothing more significant than a rag with a celebrity's name on it. Kids used to learn important skills from everyday life from their parents. Everybody had plenty to do and leisure was appreciated. Now we have excess time to get bored and everybody is on antidepressants. Economic prosperity has brought us many wondrous things at the price of surrendering our skills for helplessness. It's sad and I'm guilty too. It's obvious that something important is missing in our society and I wonder if maybe we weren't designed/evolved to deal with our level of prosperity. Pagancat (Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN (Zone 6b) July 25, 2008 03:02 PM Post #5318739 Edited - oops! This message was edited Jul 25, 2008 2:03 PM Hineni Sharps Chapel, TN (Zone 6b) July 25, 2008 03:10 PM Post #5318769 Or how about a re-definition of prosperous? Prosperity should not mean that you can afford to pay someone else to do what you cannot do; it should mean that you can feed, clothe and shelter yourself, and add something of value to your community. If you lack certain skills, then trade what you can do to those who can do what you cannot. That is where community was built. Today we have subdivisions and enclosed housing developments gated to keep others out. If you see someone's child doing something detrimental and tell their parents, you are nosy, not concerned or helpful. We have traded our time and our values for time at jobs that many of us dislike, rather than doing what we enjoy and are good at and finding ways to barter those abilities into something positive for everyone. Our 'prosperity' was built upon the resources of other peoples; those peoples now want what we have (thanks to marketing that originates here) - and guess what, there's not enough to go around any more. There are a lot more of them than there are of us...! Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 25, 2008 03:48 PM Post #5318927 We built a "wind cart" because we were bored (yes it was a small island) but the benifits that we reaped from it were great. And at some time in the near future, I hope to reap the same types of benifits. it is not a practical solution to todays transportation problems. But it did provide some relife to the boredom that existed at that point in time. Maybe the process can be mass produced at some point. I do not know but then I really know little. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 25, 2008 09:48 PM Post #5320412 Dyson, last summer as I was driving into the nearby town of Hesston I caught sight of something strange coming coming up on the sideroad to the main road I was on. When I got closer I realized it was an old fellow on one of the three wheeled bikes you often see in retirement communities, but this fellow had attatched a sail and was coming down the road at an amazing rate of speed. I actually recognized him so stopped him the next time I saw him. He sid he'd been wanting to ride farther for exercise, but really couldn't pedal the whole section yet so had attatched this sail. He said most days he could do 2 full sides of the section with the sail and ride the other two on the trike. He's an old farmer, and like Twiggy described, grew up in a time when people made their own solutions. Now that's the way to make a wind cart that can take you back home. Kathy Pagancat (Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN (Zone 6b) July 25, 2008 10:03 PM Post #5320477 It's not getting what you want. It's wanting what you got. Okay, yeah - someone else said it first. Thanks, Sheryl Crow. twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 25, 2008 10:24 PM Post #5320592 Willowwind it sounds like you live in a delightful place. Golf carts and wind carts and donkeys. msrobin Caneyville, KY (Zone 6b) July 25, 2008 10:27 PM Post #5320609 PC, well said...no matter who said it first! darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 25, 2008 10:35 PM Post #5320647 Well, we did choose what we 'got', or we wouldn't have it. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 26, 2008 12:25 AM Post #5321082 I love it. Actually it's kind of a step back in time here due to the strong mennonite and farming influence. Also a good part of Hesston is populated by the elderly, but due to their heritage they still garden, quilt, bake and share faspa more then you would find in most retirement communities. Many people here have worked as missionaries for at least a small part of their lives and they have a tremendous awareness of how other people around the world have to live compared to us. If you go more than 30 miles in any direction you run into mainstream society again. This little area is the epitomy of simple living country and I feel very blessed to be back home here. The MDS (Mennonite Disaster Service) which is a worldwide relief organization got it's start in a sunday school class at the church I often attended as a child. Although technology definitely has a toehold here, and there are many Mennonites you can't tell from a Methodist, there is still an overall conservative air here that allows history and the old ways to be very prized. Waste is very much looked down on, frivolous living is the exception rather than the rule and simple pleasures are very much enjoyed by everyone. Kathy jasmerr Merrimac, WI (Zone 4b) July 26, 2008 10:31 AM Post #5322283 Kathy, You are very fortunate to live in such a place! willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 26, 2008 11:41 AM Post #5322555 Amen to that. I just wish more of the world could be like this...but there are many who wouldn't want to live here for a minute. Kathy foggywalk marshville,, NC (Zone 8a) July 26, 2008 11:56 AM Post #5322616 I think Hinenis' re-definition of prosperous is right on! A lot of people want a chance to move to a small town...sadly, it then becomes a city with all it's problems & the same ME-ism that exists elsewhere... Foggy twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 26, 2008 12:15 PM Post #5322699 Willowwind I believe there are many people craving the lifestyle and sense of community you describe. I think that is proven by the fact that reruns of such shows as Little House on the Prairie, The Waltons and Mayberry are still very popular. Sadly most of us couldn't even pay our property taxes if we tried to live that way. Katrina wiped out much of my area and the Mennonite Disaster Service were a tremendous help to many. Indeed I believe if you asked anyone around here who was the most help, the religious organizations and their volunteers would be the answer. They hit the ground running and made it count as opposed to others I could mention. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 12:26 PM Post #5322745 I live in a rural area. My property taxes are 263$ per year. I recently sold 20 acres in Tenn. the property taxes were around $90 per year. There is plenty of rural America out there. jasmerr Merrimac, WI (Zone 4b) July 26, 2008 12:31 PM Post #5322760 Wow!!! My property taxes run that much per month for two acres and a rundown farm house, and I'm fortunate. I know people around her who pay twice what I do. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 12:43 PM Post #5322806 I don't know why the northern states seem to have such high property taxes. - Maybe for clearing the snow off the roads? When I told my sister in Michigan the cost of my property taxes, she said, 'For a month?'. We have pretty fair roads, and excellent schools by what I can tell. And the University of Alabama is about 30 miles away. There is a conscious effort here to keep costs low to attract businesses to the State. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 26, 2008 12:50 PM Post #5322829 We are going to give this place back to the mortage company & move into a small apartment in my DIL's house in town. After this years reappraisal there is no way that we can afford the taxes on this place. It is just not worth it to fight any longer. Sue will be within two minutes from her job, that will save her a one hour commute each day and 40.00 in fuel each week. I will still have to drive, but the distance is the same just another direction. I will start a new garden, It will be better because I have learned from some sad mistakes. I will not say "it is all good", but I will say "it could be worse". gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 12:57 PM Post #5322853 It is a sad state of affairs, Dyson. And it is happening to more people than you think. In fact, land has never been more available, because people can't afford to keep it. Check at the tax office. There is probably some near you. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 26, 2008 01:07 PM Post #5322879 Because of Smith Mountain Lake (just up the street), many people decided that they would like to retire in this area, no matter the cost. This drove property values up. which then drove property taxes up. I know farmers in the county who live no where near the lake, who absolutely can not afford the taxes on their land. It is sad, as am I, but we will go on and we will find our place in the world. Next years garden - will be good. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 01:17 PM Post #5322912 One of the saddest experiences of my life was when my husband (long since X) decided to let our property in Santa Barbara, California go back to the mortgage company. It wasn't just that the property is now worth hundred's of thousands, but I wanted Santa Barbara to be the place I would be. I still have an ache in my heart. I don't think it ever goes away. But, realistically, even the people who do live in Santa Barbara can't afford to live there. I hope you find a place for your garden, Dyson. This message was edited Jul 26, 2008 12:19 PM mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 26, 2008 01:41 PM Post #5322994 willowwind - You are so lucky to live in the midst of such a community. My great-aunt lived in Amish country in Indiana. That was where I spent my birthdays as a young adult and always hoped to live. Things worked out differently and I ended up in a more mainstream community, still semi-rural, though, and we are allowed to farm our land and shoot firearms on our property (good for small game hunting). The taxes are ridiculous, however. We pay around 2300.00 per year, mostly due to millages passed for school district reasons. They've been upping the assessment of the property on a regular basis as well, despite the fact that Michigan's economy has tanked and housing prices/sales are WAAAYYYYYYY down. I do not understand this - so many tax breaks for businesses that ultimately leave, devastating local economies. No breaks for regular folk who own their homes and pay their bills despite having to deal with an ever more precarious employment situation. My oldest son is leaving for Camp Pendleton a week from today. He really felt that the military was his best option for a stable career if he wanted to stay in Michigan. Two-thirds of our college graduates leave the state. This is all such a shame, because it is beautiful here. If taxes were not so high, maybe more people could afford to homestead. Most parts of our state are ideal for this purpose. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 01:48 PM Post #5323021 My sister still lives on our old home place in Michigan - her share of about 300 acres after my folks died. She was able to build 3 houses. Two she rents out to cover the taxes. My folks had land, but they weren't rich. In fact they were quite poor. They really would be poor if they had to afford today's taxes in Michigan. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 26, 2008 01:52 PM Post #5323034 It is a shame what is happening to small farmers and homesteaders in Michigan. There are many laws in place protecting their rights to farm, but no financial incentives for them to do so. The people with older places on lakes were also being bullied out due to the desirability of their lot sites. Some of them had lower tax rates because the property had not changed hands for many years, but the new neighbors with ritzier homes and higher incomes sure could make life rough for them. It is not so bad right now, because most in Michigan cannot afford to think about selling their home and building on a lake right now. twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 26, 2008 01:54 PM Post #5323043 I had noticed taxes going up over the last 2 years and just this month got a reappraisal notice. It says: "The value on the front side of this card represents an amount that is less than full market value. The Assessor, in conjunction with the Board of Supervisors, has decided, in an effort to help the tax payers of Jackson County, to incrementally increase values on an annual basis until full market value is reached by the year 2010." In other words the tax increase is so big they don't dare stick it to us all at once as they have always done in the past. Housing costs have almost doubled since Katrina and already many families are moving in with kin folks just to survive. They are building new low income apartments in every town and if this keeps up they'll need many more. I'm in the same situation as Jasmerr and it's tough. Wages and retirement income aren't keeping up. I live on the MS/AL line and because Al taxes are so much lower people try to get away with buying Al car tags. Every year they have cops randomly stationed at the schools watching for cars with AL tags picking up kids. They always catch some and it is at least a ticket. A new car tag in MS can easily cost $1000 to $1500 annually. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 02:04 PM Post #5323075 Oh. Oh. I guess Id better stay on the Alabama side and hope things stay the way they are! So is this off topic? Id say, Id grow more food if I had more land. In fact there is a 50 acre empty lot behind me. I have no reason to buy it, but if I had the money I would. Maybe put in a U Pick orchard. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 26, 2008 02:10 PM Post #5323097 When, will it all be too much? The last time I checked (on CNN I think) this was still called America. I am looking for places to set trot lines. At least we will not starve. Catfish anyone? twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 26, 2008 02:35 PM Post #5323174 Dyson my son loves to do trot lines. There is a creek within easy walking distance that in the past has given us many nice cats as long as a man's arm. Not this year. Nothing but a few small brim. I wonder if it has anything to do with run off from all the new subdivisions going up in AL (upstream). On the other hand there are people still getting cats out of the MS River (which I wouldn't want to eat) so maybe they can survive anything. I saw a headline last night that the catfish farmers were dying from rising feed prices. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 02:39 PM Post #5323191 I don't know how they are doing, but there are a whole slew of them just south of me. I sometimes take a drive just to look at them - man made lakes as far as the eye can see. very nice sunsets. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 26, 2008 02:49 PM Post #5323220 Twiggy - do I have a catfish story for you. I will try to type it out tomorrow. When I lived in MI. (Dearborn & then Walled Lake), I was "the red neck country boy". When I lived in NY (first the city & then upstate) I was the only one who could shoot any gun I picked up and hit what I was shooting at. When I livied in Japan and also New Jersey, I was "the technician". And when I lived in Alaska, I was glad that I had learned to fish at a young age. Florida, Not so good and way too hot. Everything will be OK, maybe not fantistic, but just OK. We shall endevor to perservire (sp?). gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 02:56 PM Post #5323250 One of my useless talents also, Dyson. I was on the Women's ROTC rifle team at Michigan College of Mining & Technology (not that name anymore). A few years ago, one of the guys I work with said, Ah. You couldn't hit the Broad side of a Barn. - he had a bunch of beer cans sitting on the fence posts. I didn't know if I could still hit a target or not. But I took his rifle and started down the line of beer cans. I got them all. I think there were about 10 of them. I don't keep a gun any more. If you are attacked the probability is that the attacker will get your gun and you will be dead. twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 26, 2008 02:58 PM Post #5323256 The same scene north of here Gloria. I've also heard that chicken feed is almost double what it was. Fertilizer is made from natural gas which has almost doubled. Corn for ethanol is the dumbest thing we could think of and it is going to bite us bigtime. I have a yard full of flowers and few veggies when it needs to be the other way around. None the less I am freezing every scrappy tomato and pepper I can. And my fall garden will be much bigger. I suspect for many people the winter menu will be beans and rice or rice and beans. Dyson I am looking forward to your fish story. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 26, 2008 02:59 PM Post #5323262 We have been fishing the local waters for some time now and a couple of years ago expanded to include frogging. Now my husband wants to throw a couple of traps into a local pond to trap crayfish. We've got tons of tomatoes and greens in the garden this year and a nice crayfish boil would go great with fresh salads. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 26, 2008 03:05 PM Post #5323334 I had a friend in NC a few years back (well more than 12 anyways) on a Sat morning he had a shooting match from his back porch. One of the guys showed up with a 44 Mag with a three inch barrel. After missing the target (a pie plate mounted to a stick) several times he handed it to me. The first shot was high and to the right, the second low and to the left. the third was on center and broke the stick that held the target My buddy asked if there was I gun that I could not shoot. I told him that there maybe, I just had not held it yet. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 26, 2008 03:06 PM Post #5323340 Now I am hungry. twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 26, 2008 03:50 PM Post #5323531 About 15 years ago I bought an acre with a 2br house for $13000. I had planned to retire there because there's no traffic and I loved the lot which has a live oak with at least a 5' diameter and other mature ancient trees. Most of the acre is in a swamp with lots of old cypress. I had a dream of farming crawfish and mayhaws. A series of health issues has mandated that I better try to stay where I'm at. Katrina changed this part of the world and now the house is useless. The government says the house has to be elevated. And that it can't have a septic tank because it's too close to wetlands. I called to ask about a composting toilet and they don't even know what I'm talking about. I'd be glad to get half my money back. I'm going to be on the phone Monday to get the tax assessor to reduce the taxes on my now worthless property. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 26, 2008 03:59 PM Post #5323557 We need more pitchforks. Blowtorches, what ever it takes. Twiggy you can always come stay with us in a mimisucle apartment in Rocky Mount. There is not much room - but hey there is not much room. I told the wife that I would sleep in a tent before I paid taxes on this place again, The way I figure it - the tent will be more comfortable than most cardboard boxes that I have seen. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 04:05 PM Post #5323576 Tents can be very comfortable. Ghengis Khan and his group conquered half of Asia and most of Europe while living out of them. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 26, 2008 04:13 PM Post #5323606 Spent many nights in tents, and many days with my thumb in the air. They were closely related. It is comfortable here, but how much am I going to spend on comfort? A whole lot less that the commonwealth and county expect me to fork over. When enough people make the move, and the local governments figure out that a little is much better than nothing then change will occure. twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 26, 2008 04:41 PM Post #5323743 Thank you Dyson but no. I am thinking of selling out and heading for the hills up by Gloria. Maybe I could afford to build a cottage big enough for me and my cats and dogs. Maybe we could get some old hippies to go in with us and build a commune on that 50 acres behind her. I'd probably get kicked out because I'm too decrepit to be much use. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 26, 2008 04:48 PM Post #5323771 Twiggy - I wish you luck - on all future endevors. By the way if you need any danged hillbilly cats, I have plenty to spare. You cannot have my dogs though, they are the entertainment factor right now. When they are not eating stuff (rarely happens). gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 05:04 PM Post #5323879 Come on, Twiggy! Can't be any more decrepit than me. It just takes me longer. I thought Dyson might appreciate this picture. Acclaim Images. This message was edited Jul 26, 2008 4:06 PM Click the image for an enlarged view. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 26, 2008 05:09 PM Post #5323912 gloria - love the pic. twiggy - I am a good carpenter, for when you need to build. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 05:21 PM Post #5323961 The land is an abondoned farm site. The old man died a few years ago, and the heirs are scattered all over the place. Ill check to see if there is a well. Well. that makes 2 hippies at least. You may have to camoflauge yourselves as Red Necks. This is Alabama, after all. The Alabama catfish industry is just down the road from this place, Dyson. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 26, 2008 05:27 PM Post #5324002 Gloria , That is funny, hippies camouflaged as rednecks! Both groups get a bad rap as far as I am concerned. And tents are comfy. Some outdoor living catalog I was reading had one of the fancier models labeled as a "guest house". Had to laugh at that. But I would rather stay in my own tent than a filthy motel room any day. Dyson Rocky Mount, VA (Zone 7a) July 26, 2008 05:31 PM Post #5324023 I will not have to get rid of the beard will I? I really hate to shave. Though to be truthfull, the beard is mostly gray now. I get along well with most rednecks, farmers, hippys, bikers, heck most anyone who does not shoot at me. Those I have a problem with, but it seems to be a small part of the population in general (which is a good thing if you study it for long). gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 05:37 PM Post #5324049 Red Necks have beards. Might have to shave your head though. Pagancat (Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN (Zone 6b) July 26, 2008 07:03 PM Post #5324373 Dyson, my heart goes out to you and your DW. Your place won't sell? twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 26, 2008 07:52 PM Post #5324549 I could probably do the camouflage without much practice considering that rednecks aren't really scarce in these parts. I'd really have to work on toning down my independent nature and sharp tongue and short temper. All character flaws I've been accused of. A new beginning sure would be sweet. It would take me at least a year to tie up my loose ends. I am sooooo tempted. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 26, 2008 08:48 PM Post #5324733 We lived in a tent for six weeks when my kids were younger...the first of many summers I worked at a Boy Scout Camp in the Rockies. We had enough room to "carpet" the floor with 4 twin bed matresses and an additional 2 ft. at the front flap. I was pretty tired of the tent by the end of that summer and glad to get into a simple cabin the next year, but all three of my children will tell you the summer in the tent was the best of all. Kathy mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 26, 2008 08:57 PM Post #5324761 We could all learn from our kids. Nine years ago I found myself in a bad situation where I had to move into an apartment with only some mattresses and a couple of folding chairs for furniture. My son loved it and wanted to know if we could get enough mattresses for all of our extended family to sleep over. Then, after I got married and my husband and I were building our current home, we also all slept on mattresses in our dining room while finishing the rest of the house. The kids still look back on that time as the best ever. It is the love and family bonds that are important, not the material things. I try to extend this to my current efforts to expand my garden and provide more of our family's food. We get the kids involved in the gardening, fishing, hunting, etc... And they all say that the meals are better because they are made with love from start to finish. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 26, 2008 09:23 PM Post #5324861 mametcalf: Sounds a lot better than "eat your spinach" "eat your broccoli" and all those other snips that destroy a kids self image. twiggybuds: you are not far away. Not that I don't like that empty space back there! Greensboro is about 18 mi north of HWY 80 - that's the route to Mississippi. Hineni Sharps Chapel, TN (Zone 6b) July 26, 2008 09:37 PM Post #5324916 Oh no Dyson, will you still be in VA? gloria & twiggy - had it been six months ago, you could have had two more hippie types to share that 50 acres ;) We're still trying to get settled in here, but it does look like J will be outta GA by September 1st (if the rental interest activity keeps up!) After we get settled, I'll be trying to locate a small property for my mom somewhere near us hopefully; she's getting up in years and is starting to get really nervous. My brother has a new baby and they just cut his job; at least they offered him another position in the company, and if he doesn't like that after 90 days he still gets his severence package. I told him he'd better be realllly thankful, and to take his time deciding. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 26, 2008 09:42 PM Post #5324942 I have never forced my kids to eat anything. I figure that if they are hungry enough they will try what is on the table. I do get creative with my descriptions of foods they are unsure of, though. They do honestly believe that salmon tastes like crab legs, for instance. My only problem with veggies now is that they have been raised on good homegrown stuff, so they absolutely will not eat them if they are canned or not truly fresh. Good in a way, especially when trying to promote sustainable living. Not always so good on the pocketbook in the wintertime, if we have run out of our own frozen produce. zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 26, 2008 10:00 PM Post #5325030 All – Well I started my “how much could you grow” today. I have dill and basil in the ground. I’m seriously thinking about doing the shoe tree for vegetables next year but it’s a little late in the season this year. General - The problem I have with moving to the country is what do you do for a living? I’ve considered moving to Montana, Wyoming, or even closer to home in Eastern WA, but I don’t know how we would support ourselves. I think prosperity is more about being happy with what you have and your life. That does include being able to support house, bills, food and clothing, but it’s more than that. It’s having a job that you don’t hate. Being content with who you are. It’s about having friends and family that care about you. Then everyone has their personal points. I think looking at it that way, very few, even the rich, are prosperous in the modern world. We’ve given up quality of life in order to have stuff that’s supposed to make our life better. Then we wonder why everyone wants more stuff. “We” tell them that in order to have a good life you must have this stuff, so they get it, but still aren’t happy, so they try to get happy by buying more stuff. I don’t know how many times I heard something like “I’d be happy if I just had this thing.” Dyson – “I get along well with most rednecks, farmers, hippys, bikers, heck most anyone who does not shoot at me.” I agree, there are a few that I worry about shooting at me, and a few that just won’t like me, but in general I can get along with people across the board. Bigots and fanatics are the only two groups I have issues with. zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 26, 2008 10:03 PM Post #5325047 mametcalf - I have forced DSD to eat, but I hate waste. She has to try new thing at least once and if she takes it she has to eat it. We had a battle over finishing her milk from the cereal a couple days ago. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 26, 2008 10:14 PM Post #5325115 Zhinu - I also hate waste, so I feed any leftover food to the dogs (2 beagles and a German Shorthaired Pointer). Even my cats will eat table scraps. Hopefully, next year we will be raising chickens and they will eat some leftovers. Honestly, I don't even like to put food into the compost heap. I prefer it to nourish a living creature. I do admit that once my kids have tried something new once, I keep telling them that their taste buds will grow to like it after about 20 tries. I actually did read this somewhere and showed them the article. They have found out on their own that this does tend to be true, and so eat a bit more of a food they find interesting at each sitting. It has really helped to expand their horizons. As for living in the country, we are pretty lucky. My husband and I do not have careers that require a long drive into an urban area. My brother does and every so often threatens to quit his job, find a place in the country, and just wing it. The whole suburban rat race gets to him sometimes. Like you, I can find good in most people. I definitely agree about bigots. Some fanatics I can deal with (depending on degree and area of fanaticism), but hypocrites I despise! zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 26, 2008 10:29 PM Post #5325199 mametcalf - My deal along those lines is she has to try something about once every six months to see if her tastes have changed. We only have cats. I feed bread like stuff to the crows and I've tried putting out some other stuff to see if they or the raccoons would eat it, but so far other than the bread, the only thing that's eaten it has been the ants. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 26, 2008 10:41 PM Post #5325243 We can't feed the raccoons. Unfortunately, that would put an end to any hope of raising enough food to feed the family. Before we built our dog kennel near the garden, they would completely demolish the corn and the green beans, two of our favorites, and both good winter keepers. The deer are bad as well. I guess that is part of how you know that the land is not able to sustain both the wildlife and humans in your area - when the coons and deer come out of the woods to eat your crops. jasmerr Merrimac, WI (Zone 4b) July 26, 2008 10:44 PM Post #5325259 This conversation has brought up a memory I had long forgotten. When I was a kid my sister and her DH and kids lived in a tent in our backyard for awhile (money thing). There was plenty of room in the house, but I don't think they wanted to impose; probably had something to do with my stepfather. If the weather was bad the kids stayed inside, and my sister did their cooking inside. I thought it looked like fun! zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 26, 2008 11:08 PM Post #5325431 mametcalf - I have so little in my garden that it's not a problem. The raccoon comes into my yard and eats worms. I kind of mind the loss of worms, but I figure everyone has to eat. "I guess that is part of how you know that the land is not able to sustain both the wildlife and humans in your area - when the coons and deer come out of the woods to eat your crops." That's why I feed them. I figure we've done so much damage to their environment that it's the least I can do. If they were getting into food I needed, that would be a different issue, but as long as I don't need it and they share I figure we can co-exist. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 26, 2008 11:37 PM Post #5325520 It is sad that ours have to come out of their woods to scavenge for "people food". We've got the typical problem of having too many deer in too small of a restricted area. I am worried that they will start to starve and get diseases. A few years ago, they had the same problem at a Metropark not too far from us and the state actually brought in sharpshooters to cull the herd. They gave the meat to soup kitchens, which at least helped to feed someone. We have had to shoot a few coons that have become aggressive. I felt terrible because I did not think that you could eat them and did not feeling right just killing animals. My husband's friend told us that he marinated and then cooked one that he shot with lots of garlic and herbs and said that it was actually pretty good. If we have another that is a problem I think that I will cook it up. The kids probably won't touch it, but it'll be dinner for my husband and myself. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 27, 2008 12:27 AM Post #5325665 Oh you're brave Mametcalf. We don't have too much problem with critters here, probably due to the dogs having the full run of the property and leaving plenty of smell. We do get an occasional opossum or coon though and I've never even thought about eating them. DH gets a delighted look in his eye and runs out the backdoor with his gun yelling at the dogs to "hold him right there". I think they (the critters, not the dogs) end up as coyote and buzzard food in the back pasture, but at least it feeds something. I'm not real good at eating much cow or pig, so I really don't think I'd get 'possum down. When I was little my dad was a very adventurous eater who had us eating pig's feet, rattlesnake and octopus, to name a few. I became very suspicious of "different" foods due to that. I never pushed my kids too much beyond "just try it once" and they've all grown up to be more adventurous eaters than me. We just never had much junk food around, so if they were hungry they ate what was there. They also spent lots of time in the garden with me, and all were very prone to just munching out there. I couldn't have sprayed things if I'd wanted too without doing them in. Kind of nice. Now to my delight, my granddaughters are doing the same. We have the funniest looking ears of corn in the freezer right now. Several days ago the girls had great fun helping me husk it for freezing and when I checked their progress I found they's been husking and biting. I don't think there's an ear in there without a few bites missing. They weren't very hungry that night. Oh well!!! Kathy mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 27, 2008 01:07 AM Post #5325781 Kathy, I love your story about the girls and the corn. Now that shows a true understanding of the meaning of sustainable living. You eat what you can now, put the rest up for a leaner day. They do get the point, but have their own unique way of implementing the process! gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 27, 2008 09:04 AM Post #5326519 I have a friend who lived her life as a single mother. He son refused to eat vegetables and so she didn't make him eat vegetables. He didn't eat any at all. Several years ago the son was finishing college when he was diagnosed with a brain tumor. Is there a connection between the brain tumor and eating no vegetables? Yes. It is highly likely that there is a connection. I guess most people eat what they think 'tastes good', but we need basic whole grains, fruits, vegetables, and vegetable fats high in Omega 3 . . .. We need to eat to ensure our health, and that usually tastes really really good. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 27, 2008 09:55 AM Post #5326726 Thank you for your perspective Mametcalf, you're absolutly right. Someday they'll do it my way, in the meantime I get a giggle every time I open the freezer and look at the corn. I may not serve it to company though. Gloria, I think teaching kids to eat well is kind of like learning to live happily in Kansas. Foods with lots of sugar, salt and fat kind of dazzle our tastebuds, which is fine once in a while. If that's all you eat, your tastebuds get desensitized to more subtle flavors and textures and that's all they want. There are many places in this world full of spectacular, exciting happenings and a whirlwind life pace that can desensitize you to softer, more subtle beauty and a slower pace in life. Pretty soon all you can appreciate is the wilder faster times, and you feel lost and bored without it. Neither of those extremes are healthy, at least for most of us, and yet so many have never learned to love the more sublte pleasures; a cool breeze at dusk, the first peas raw off the vine, the smell of new mown hay, a mockingbird singing in the middle of the night, baby potatoes with fresh green beans, the incredible colors of the wild grasses in the fall, the first Johnny-Jump-Ups and Bluets in the spring...and so many more. That desensitization extends to our appreciation of each other too. For many people, the glamorous, the famous and the rich are the only people to try to emulate or appreciate. We miss so much when we can't see and love the special qualities that everyday, plain people possess. Large factions of our population, the poor, the elderly, the mentally or physically handicapped, and sometimes the children, are often passed right by because others can't take the time to get to know and love them. It takes a closer look and an ability to see the subtle beauty...but the world would be so much better off if we could appreciate each other, the quiet places and our vegetables. Okay, end of rant. I'm off to church. Have a great morning and see if you can see something beautiful that you might not have noticed before. Kathy gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 27, 2008 10:21 AM Post #5326873 Kathy: You said this so well. Don't know if this fits: we are always looking for the buzz we forget about the bees. Yes. I do remember being so bored (maybe deprived) as a kid, I couldn't wait until I grew up. There was a rough time being an adult, but now at "maturity" there is time and inclination to smell the roses, the magnolias, lavender, freshly mowed yard and all of it. Why didn't I know this before? What we yearned for most was in our own back yard. People asked me, aren't you bored or lonely living in that big house all by your self. Not me! I have me! mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 27, 2008 12:59 PM Post #5327618 Kathy and Gloria - This is all so true. It is good that some people have realized these truths while their children are still young. If you grow up appreciating the little things in life and being happy with what you have, you will not "drift" trying to find yourself as a young adult. I think that this type of upbringing is something that has been lost with the demise of multi-generational child rearing. With so many parents living far from their own families, grandma and grandpa are no longer the influence that they once were. I have seen in the news that the percentage of elderly folk in this country is growing. This may be a good thing when it comes to raising our own food and living sustainably. I think that for a lot of us, the wisdom of this type of lifestyle sinks in with the passing years. I know that was true for me. I was almost 40 before I took a good look at my goals and realized that they were no longer valid. Luckily, I had my kids later in life, so they have been growing up knowing that family, respect for others, and respect for our home (earth) are most important. Gloria, I recently told my mother that I would be perfectly happy if I never spent another night away from my home. As the kids get older, I am often alone, but do not mind. And I think that being happy and willing to stay put makes it much easier to raise food and live sustainably. If I am not here, who will water the plants, harvest the vegetables, and care for the animals? Luckily, there are plenty of adventures awaiting within walking distance of home! willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 27, 2008 03:20 PM Post #5328175 I know I've gone on and on about where I live, but I'm going to add one more tidbit just because it is so special. The nursing home in Hesston (where I worked the last 10 years before my early retirement) has joined with the city-wide day care program to form what is termed an intergenerational care program. An addition was built on to the nursing home with a beautiful day care area and playground. Many of the daily activities for both the adults and the elders are combined. "Grandmas" and "Grandpas" read stories, play balloon volleyball, blow bubbles, plant gardens and cook with the kids. Joint singing session are enjoyed and both groups play and present entertainment sessions for eachother, ex. small plays, harmonica or piano concerts, rhythm bands, parades and art displays. Even those elders who are too incompacitated to activly play, can hold a child on their lap for a wheelchair ride or receive the gift of a ride from a child. Of course all of this is carefully monitored, but it has been one of the most fantastic programs I've ever seen. The elders are able to sign up to come to the classrooms to rock babies or play with small children, and the children have learned how to walk carefully through the facility to get to the activity areas where the adults are. Residents have been involved in quilt and scrapbook making for the kids. The adults are addressed as "Grandma Anna,(just an example) Grandpa Joe, Mr. or Mrs.", whichever they prefer, so the kids learn proper respect. What makes this program even better is the small Mennonite college, nextdoor to the nursing home. The college kids come over and volunteer with both the adults and the kids. Several of their classes even give them credit or require some volunteer time. They read letters, help with walks, do sidewalk chalk art, help with teaparties and faspas, help residents get food to the table at meals and provide music concerts. This program has received state and national attention, and I wish more of these programs could be put into place. As much as nostalgia tells us the extended family was a healthier way to live, reality says most of us can't do this. Modern times call for modern solutions, and a borrowed extended family is good for everyone. Kathy mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 27, 2008 03:26 PM Post #5328205 This is extremely cool, Kathy! It sounds like a wonderful program that benefits all of society. zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 27, 2008 03:30 PM Post #5328224 willowwind - I think that program sounds great! I wish there were more of them around. General - I do have issues getting DSD to eat vegetables. She'll eat Corn and Broccoli, rarely other vegetables. I keep trying, but it's hard. I think that is another reason to try to grow vegetables next year, maybe if she's growing them, she'll eat them. twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 27, 2008 04:57 PM Post #5328592 Willowwing that surely should be a model for nursing homes everywhere. I had an accident 2 years ago and another 2 months ago that required me to spend some hellish time in nursing homes for occupational therapy. The first time was 3 weeks and the last time 2 weeks. It was plenty long enough to convince me that I need to pass in my sleep, get struck by lightening or even a truck. If you go in with your right mind, it won't last long. This last time all the employees were as kind and caring as I could hope for. The only diversions are TV, visitors, meals (no seasoning, no fat, no texture, YUCK) and people watching, which is truly a downer. I had the great luxury of knowing my sentence was short or I would have become suicidal. The young need to experience the elderly and handicapped and vice versa. I had never held a baby until I had my own. I spent most of my life in blind arrogance regarding my good health and had no patience for infirmity. In middle age it finally occurred to me that old age levels the playing field sooner or later. I don't doubt that I would have been a kinder and gentler person if I had grown up spending time with my grandparents. Also if I had gleaned some insight as a child I might have lived entirely differently, been a better daughter, parent, neighbor, etc. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 27, 2008 05:25 PM Post #5328695 To date the only experience ive had with a nursing home is to visit a friend. She had been taking medicine for schizophenia and the medicine failed. There was no option. No family. She couldn't manage living in her home - even with "meals on wheels". I went to see her the first day she was in the home. She had been so terrified she jumped out the window. It was only 3 or 4 ft to the ground, but when I saw her she looked like someone had been beating on her with a ball bat. In only a few months she went from being my giddy lunch partner to a person living in terror. Just a few months. She didn't live long after that. Sooo. You think you are pretty tough and healthy like me... then what? darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 27, 2008 06:03 PM Post #5328844 Kathy, how marvelous! I have been advocating that kind of arrangement with kida and adults (plus pets) since my grandmother was in a nursing home in the 1980's... and then my mother in 2001-2003. I'm SO glad to see someone doing it!!! I keep seeing the word 'faspas' lately and I don't know that word. Meaning? zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 27, 2008 06:10 PM Post #5328916 I think it might have helped my great grandmother. I still think the nursing home is what killed her, not physically but made her give up the will to live. Unless my parents, DH's mother or my Grand mothers get to the point they need constant care I'm going to do my best to keep them out of a home. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 27, 2008 06:19 PM Post #5328957 It's a low german word for kind of like tea in the afternoon, but you have coffee, zwieback and fancy breads, maybe a little cheese and apple butter. It was most commonly served on Sunday afternoons and often involved guests and extended family. Another common faspa is Fifth Friday Faspa, on any month with 5 Fridays. I'm not sure why but it's a good excuse around here for treats. Most families no longer do it, but many of the residents of the nursing homes grew up with that tradition so its often done there. It's fun to be able to pass that on to the kids. Usually just zwieback, cheese, apple butter and coffee at the nursing home, but it's quite a treat for the residents and I think shows respect for their traditions. There are so many fun and special tradions in this nation that I wish we could share more of them. As time goes on our population has more of a mixed heritage anyway so why not broaden our minds? Kathy darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 27, 2008 06:56 PM Post #5329132 Thanks! twiggybuds Moss Point, MS (Zone 8b) July 27, 2008 07:11 PM Post #5329194 Willowwind I'm envious. I wish I could wave a magic wand and transform my environment in the likeness of yours. It is such a mystery to me, so frustrating and so sad that our population chose to go a different way. I think it would be a great idea if you would put one of your village elders up to running for president so I could vote in confidence with hope for a better future. Gloria your friend is lucky she didn't hang on longer. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 27, 2008 07:48 PM Post #5329355 I really believe that if we lived in tighter-knit communities that found ways to solve their problems and incorporate old-fashioned values into our modern society we would not be discussing the topic of the forum so much as acting on it. There would be less worries of potentially running out of food in a community that knows how to come together and take action on the issues important to its survival. zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 27, 2008 09:10 PM Post #5329800 mametcalf - That is certainly true, but it's hard to get started on the tighter-knit community in the modern world. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 27, 2008 11:14 PM Post #5330298 My experience away from here is that sometimes it's hard to even get to know WHO your neighbors are, much less become tight knit. I don't know what magic elixer or fairy dust there is out there that allows people to start reaching out toward others instead of thinking only of themselves, and yet I think we see it even here on this website. There are those who drop in with a potshot or rudeness toward others when they disagree, and then there are others who may differ in opinion but still be respectful and caring. Is it the competitiveness we grow up with? Is it only being addressed when we do wrong instead of being thanked when we do right? Is it too fast a pace and too much emotional separation from each other? I worry sometimes about this cell phone age and kids. It's wonderful for parents to be able to reach them whenever it's needed, but at the same time kids don't have to come home and check in, sit in the same room, much less at a dinner table with their families, or even actually talk face to face. I've seen people texting each other in the same room. How do you form close and caring relationships when you never have any physical proximity? A sense of family and a relative slowness to embrace too much technology are hallmarks here. Even those who don't have family are embraced and included by others just because family is so important to everyone that they know how hard it would be to be without it. I think every Christmas that I worked at the nursing home there would be one or two families who would come up to the nurse's desk Christmas morning requesting a list of residents who were alone so they could go share a gift and some time with them. The family would include everyone from Grandpa down to the babies. Children are taught to think of others from the time they're small and they watch their parents and grandparents set the example. It's got to start in the homes and the schools. We all have to set examples for each other. Communities such as DG at least let us all share concerns and get ideas...and that's a good beginning. We just have to carry it outward from here. Kathy zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 28, 2008 12:09 AM Post #5330487 Kathy - I think it starts with making sure you have face to face time with your kids. Even if you do let them have a cell phone etc... If you raise them right they will make a difference to those around them. Try to reach out to others when ever you can. Do things for others in need and tell them to pass it on when they can. It's all little stuff, but it can make a difference. Hineni Sharps Chapel, TN (Zone 6b) July 28, 2008 07:43 AM Post #5331189 Two generations of 'me'people have led to the young people we have today. I love my parents, but I cannot recall one single time in my life of them ever helping others. My parents were very 'me' focused. It took a long time for me to find my own way to help others, but my kids saw it from time to time. Immediate families today are broken, many are single parents just trying to feed and clothe their kids, don't have time or energy to 'give' to others many times or even an awareness outside of their own immediate circumstances. I always found the poorest people who had the least, usually my grandparents age, were the first ones to offer a helping hand to others. When people have a mortgage, long commutes, kids wanting the newest 'it' thing, and today's economy making everyone scared for their jobs - I would imagine it is downright hard, especially if they were not taught by example. And in the city, people are more worried about if the homeless person is gonna steal their stuff, damage their car, or ask for money than anything else. Country folk are from my experience, far more giving; if they are over 70 they are more giving. Both of my neighbors here came to visit within the first two weeks, and brought food. It was a little shocking. I am personally not one for much socializing. I like to see my neighbor and chat a bit, but I'm not a 'kitchzy' eat cookies in my kitchen kind of person. Growing up as I did, it is taking me a long time to differentiate between people being 'nosy' (as my mom calls it) and people being genuinely concerned and looking out for you. Example: before we moved here, our neighbors in GA were going through a nasty divorce. Husband asked us to keep an eye on the house - one night we saw someone around their house, and didn't think the wife was home. So, J went and checked in the garage to see if her car was there. It was, so we figured not to be worried for her safety. She called the cops and said he was a peeping tom!!! Three hours and a police warning later, 'looking after your neighbors' seemed like something we just didn't want the hassle of! Contrast that to here where we are now. My neighbors didn't see me outside for a few days (due to the weeds...lol!) and came over to the pasture fence to holler at me and see if I was alright. I didn't feel like that was nosy, in fact, it made me feel good to think that if something happened to me and no one saw me for a few days, at least someone might come check on me so I might be discovered before I died...lol! If I didn't see my neighbor in the garden for a few days, I'd probably get worried and go over and check on them. Not sure what I'll look for in the fall and winter to make sure they are okay (they are an older couple) but I do keep an eye out for signs of activity at their place. So I think it's family example, combined with distrust and suspicion, too much technology, too much pressure and competition and not enough face time - even within the immediate family. But every time one person does something good to change that, it's still one more good thing. I'd like to think they all add up :) mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 28, 2008 11:21 AM Post #5332232 So true about family values and how one is raised being the key to a proper society. My parents are older and both come from Poland. Having survived WWII and its many hardships, they knew that having neighbors one could work with and rely on could literally be a matter of life and death. They always bought everything with cash, including their first home. The other two houses had small mortgages that were paid off quickly. I grew up not really understanding the entire housing business. Since my husband and I paid cash for our home, I still don't. I am very thankful that we built our own home on land that we got a good deal on instead of looking for something "better". It was tough, and we still have parts of the house that are not finished due to a lack of money. But at least it truly is our home and we would be able to keep it if the whole banking system fell apart. Of course, we were very lucky to have had help from both of our families. We know all of our neighbors 3 houses on either side of us as well as the three across the street. We are also not particularly social since we are busy with our own family, but always have a friendly work and a helpful hand when it is needed. None of these people that we know have a problem with asking for help or giving it. With the older folk, sometimes the "help" is just a matter of listening and sharing some wisdom. My dad passed away in September and the neighbors there have been checking in on my mom. Last week, she was stung by a wasp, went into anaphylactic shock, passed out on her patio, and probably would have died if it were not for "nosy" neighbors. I thank God for their help! Right now, our neighbors are comparing the bounty of their gardens. We will be sharing our tomatoes. Hopefully, someone's got extra corn and green beans, but we will settle for the ever-abundant zucchini! After all, it is food and it is free! willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 28, 2008 01:16 PM Post #5332833 Mametcalf, sounds like you've got a good place to be "home" too. I think there are lots of these good little pockets of community around and we just need to find a way to help them spread. We also, most importantly, need to teach our children and grandchildren the importance of community and caring. If things get bad, those of us who can rely on a team effort from neighbors and family will probably fare much better than those who have to go it alone. I wonder if building helpful, close communities couldn't be considered a sustainable alternative to our current indifferent, competative society? Kathy mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 28, 2008 01:45 PM Post #5332969 Kathy - I think that community-building would definitely help our society. I worry about what the world will be like for my children every day. That is a big part of why I am teaching all three of them how to live off of the land responsibly. So many things are changing right now, and even a good education or a good set of skills is not enough to guarantee a job that will allow one to buy a nice piece of land and build a home or to be able to care for one's family without constant worry. My husband and I have both had to deal with unemployment and difficult financial times over the past year. It is good to have neighbors and family who will look after the kids and feed them dinner once in a while. These are small gestures that add up to a big difference. And since I am home more, I have expanded the garden and willingly share with all. Most of the neighbors are working less and are having to supplement their incomes with paper routes, scrapping, or other secondary part time work. In such times, everyone appreciates a neighbor's help so much more. We no longer throw anything away or take it to a recycling center without asking all of the neighbors if they might have a use for it. We have also benefited from this practice. It suddenly pays to be a pack rat. As far as competition goes, we just need to change our attitude and expectations of what happens when we "win". I am about as competitive as one can get. I want to grow the nicest garden, have the highest GPA of my college classmates, bake the best pie at the bake sale, etc. However, when I achieve my goal I share my vegetables, knowledge, and recipes. I also praise the efforts of others. I don't think the competition is the problem - it is our selfish "me first" mentality. So many people don't want to share the gains of their "winnings" with their immediate family, much less their community. If I ever won the lottery or landed a high-paying job, I know that my entire community would be better off because I just plain would not be happy keeping my good fortune to myself. rtl850nomore Glendale/Parks, AZ July 28, 2008 01:59 PM Post #5333036 mametcalf are there any houses for sale in your neighborhood? I want to be your neighbor. I feel the same as you and endeavor to be that kind of neighbor. I have worked very hard to build a neighborhood that supports its occupants. It is hard at first because most people are not used to unconditional giving. They are wary. After a while when they see the veggie gifts, and the offers of help have no attachements, they come around. I remember as a child being raised by the neighborhood. Everyone looked out the everyone else. What happend to us? Well never mind, it doesn't matter. What matters is we are heading back in the direction of community. zhinu (Laura) Olympia, WA (Zone 8a) July 28, 2008 04:39 PM Post #5333760 I think it's time for a new thread. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 28, 2008 08:27 PM Post #5335017 Someone just sent me this information. tv channel "going green" http://planetgreen.discovery.com/tv-schedules/special.html?p... willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 28, 2008 09:32 PM Post #5335453 OK, I'm going to show my age and ignorance. How in blazes do you read anything on a website with miniscule print? Is there some way to enlarge it. I've seen more and more like this and I can't even read them with my sewing glasses. Kathy gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 28, 2008 09:45 PM Post #5335560 I am so glad to be near sighted! I only wear glasses for driving and tv and I have only had my perscription changed once since high school. I can still thread a needle and string delica beads with peyote stitch. Ha Ha Ha. I hope it stays that way! Any how. Your computer should have a setting to change the font size that comes up on your screen. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 28, 2008 09:49 PM Post #5335596 I think Firefox has a setting, too. With a Mac, it is quite simple, and easily undone... On the page to enlarge, hit the 'command' button and the + sign, as many times as you need to make it legible. Reverse it by 'command" and the - sign... willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 28, 2008 09:56 PM Post #5335668 Thank you so much...I got it! That looks very interesting. I'm afraid we only get what comes over the airwaves for free, but DD might get this. I'll have to check into it. Kathy Pagancat (Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN (Zone 6b) July 28, 2008 09:57 PM Post #5335671 Kathy, if you are on Firefox, go to the top left corner of your screen, click on "View". On the drop down list has a option for "Text Size". Choose that and "Increase size". Pagancat (Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN (Zone 6b) July 28, 2008 09:58 PM Post #5335684 Oops - posted at the same time. Glad it worked! rtl850nomore Glendale/Parks, AZ July 28, 2008 10:52 PM Post #5336041 Oh how I miss my Mac. gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 28, 2008 11:07 PM Post #5336100 I have windows Internet Explorer and it also has Text Size under View. You can have small, medium, or large. Just like pizza!!! This message was edited Jul 28, 2008 10:08 PM msrobin Caneyville, KY (Zone 6b) July 28, 2008 11:25 PM Post #5336233 I didn't know there was text size adjuster under view either. But I did find a zoom buttom at the top of the page with all the other buttons on my windows program a couple of months ago. Sure comes in handy when I'm having trouble seeing something. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 28, 2008 11:31 PM Post #5336259 I'm not sure what I have, have to look when I get off, but I did go to view...had 5 size choices. It worked well until I tried to come back here and the print was huge. I'd forgotten to go back down in size. I have a feeling there are a lot of things out there that are fairly simple, but I just haven't learned how to do them. As I said, we're a little slow in this area technology-wise. They were just putting in the first computers for the nurses when I retired in Jan. Everything...and believe me there was a lot of documentation required...had been done by hand up until then. I'm learning little by little. Thanks for your help and patience. Kathy gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 29, 2008 12:42 AM Post #5336491 Kathy: I think we all are still learning. Ive used a computer since the 1960s for writing reports. Im just learning now about the keyboard commands. For example CTRL + F will let you search a page. You don't have to read the whole thing to find what you are looking for. willowwind Moundridge, KS (Zone 6a) July 29, 2008 08:49 AM Post #5337329 Wow! I didn't know that. Where are you finding that information? I would love to do some homestudy just to become more familiar. If there are others out there as behind as me, maybe we could start a new thread under something and help eachother. Now I'm going to go play with searching pages with CTRL + F. Thanks so much Gloria. Kathy gloria125 Greensboro, AL July 29, 2008 09:40 AM Post #5337561 I think there is a computer forum on Dave's. Just ask. or CTRL + F and see if its been discussed before. There is a lot of discussin of this type of thing in the Writers Forum (sorry writers only) and I have learned a whole lot there. I knew about the F function before. When you are writing a 300 page report and you want to change the figure numbers because youve changed sequence or added more figures, you can search: ( and it will give you all of the (Figure - ) in the text. Boy does that save time when they is a deadline to get the project out. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 29, 2008 10:08 AM Post #5337724 A newsletter I get says home vegetable plant sales are up as much as 40%... sweezel McKinney, TX (Zone 8a) July 29, 2008 10:15 AM Post #5337763 Kathy, if you have windows, it's just like Darius said on the mac, but using "ctrl" instead of "command". You can just use "ctrl" and "+", or "ctrl" and "-" instead of going through the menus. Pagancat (Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN (Zone 6b) July 29, 2008 11:12 AM Post #5338050 I'm not surprised... (re: increase in veggie sales). Maybe I should start looking at my veggie seeds for next year now, lol... louparris Houston, TX (Zone 9a) July 29, 2008 11:49 AM Post #5338219 Re "what would I do if I had to grow my own food". Here in Texas we have a lot of land. We have a fair amount of property (not our home lot, it's too wooded but elsewhere) and we have a lot of friends with big acreage so land won't be a problem. Water might, though we do have several spring-fed wells and other water. We would have a lot of learning to do, for sure, but I think we'd survive. We have hunters and fishermen in the family (and friends) too. Lou mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 29, 2008 03:01 PM Post #5339064 Sounds like you have a pretty well-thought-out plan, Lou. Living in Michigan, I am inexcusably ignorant about the water situation in other parts of the country. I think that in the future that will have a big impact on who can and cannot grow their own food. It seems almost unfair that a small part of the country would have a fifth of the entire earth's fresh water supply at their disposal. We have done a woefully poor job of managing this priceless resource up to this point in time. jujubetexas San Marcos, TX (Zone 8b) July 31, 2008 03:50 PM Post #5349554 AYANKEECAT said: "I'm eating lamb's quarter and purslane for salad for lunch today. Both grow as "weeds" here in my yard. (I've actually saved seeds from Lamb's Quarter as it grows really, really fast in any place that gets some sun and is full of nutrition.) In addition to saving heirloom seeds, I suggest that we make better use of the naturally growing plants that we refer to as "weeds" to help out with providing food for ourselves." I went out and bought a bunch of the purslane yesterday and pigged out. It is considered almost a weed here in Texas. I found that the Yubi Apricot variety tasted great. Some of the types with small narrow leaves were bitter. Good call Yankee darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) July 31, 2008 04:25 PM Post #5349693 I'm learning about the edible 'weeds' in my yard but haven't tasted any. So far I have identified (besides dandelion) purslane, lamb's quarter, yellow dock and plantain. I actually saw dandelion leaves, bunched, in the grocery store produce section! I should have checked the price, I could be sitting on a fortune, LOL. mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) July 31, 2008 08:05 PM Post #5350506 I have eaten dandelion and wood sorrel. We also fry up mushrooms that we find in the woods on occasion, but only if they are either morels or definitely NOT a match to any mushrooms marked poisonous in the guide. It is hard to be sure. I feel the same way about weeds. I know that many are supposed to be good to eat. I like green of all sorts, so I would probably like them, but I want to get a reliable guide or take a class first. I won't have to worry about surviving a famine if I keel over from eating the wrong plant! darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) August 01, 2008 05:50 PM Post #5355327 Here's a short video on eating garden 'weeds'... http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=8312575857964759214&q... mametcalf Genesee Twp, MI (Zone 5b) August 01, 2008 06:36 PM Post #5355541 The video was interesting. When the camera showed the bowl of "greens" that had been picked mostly by trimming what are considered weeds out of the lawn, the end product looked very appetizing (at least to me). We've been talking about planting edible lawns on some of these forums, and it turns out that some of us already have them! revjonny London United Kingdom June 04, 2009 03:53 PM Post #6642057 Check out the free eBook at http://www.self-sufficiency-guide.com/Veg.html . It tells you how much (in Lbs) each vegetable can produce on the same amount of land, eg; Squash - 52lbs Pea - 3 lbs quite a difference! dmcdevitt Schroon Lake, NY (Zone 4a) June 16, 2009 11:00 AM Post #6695301 Today's spinach harvest, that's a 64 qt bin. I planted a bed about 3' x4' and have been using it for salads & dinner, but cut the whole thing today as it will soon bolt anyway. I will blanch and freeze it. I don't know how much it will cook down to. I'm guessing it was maybe 25 lb?.. Still at $4 lb in the store I got my money's worth out of that pack of seeds! Now I can replant that area, maybe with chard. Next week the broccolis will start being harvested. I've also cut tons of lettuces and asparagus, but didn't freeze any asparagus. Click the image for an enlarged view. darius So.Appalachian Mtns, VA (Zone 5b) June 16, 2009 11:14 AM Post #6695373 Whoooee! That's a lovely bin of spinach! I didn't plant any early spinach and it's been cool enough that now I wish I had... maybe some in fall? I sure ate a lot of it from the farmer's market although it wasn't cheap. garden_mermaid San Francisco Bay Ar, CA (Zone 9b) June 16, 2009 01:59 PM Post #6696236 Lovely spinach! Our bizarre weather patterns has our veggies confused. We had an unseasonable 100'F + weekend a month ago that killed many of the pea crops and sent the broccolis and kales bolting for the sky. This has been followed by cooler than average temperatures. The tomatoes are trying, the squash is still thinking about it, and only time will tell on the okra. My eggplants and peppers grow during the sunny, hot days and seem to remain in stasis on the over cast days. This year will be an interesting harvest. dmcdevitt Schroon Lake, NY (Zone 4a) June 16, 2009 02:48 PM Post #6696418 gm, DH was in SF the past couple days and said it was horrible and humid like nothing he ever experienced when we live there. Meanwhile, NJ had 6" accumulation of HAIL and needed snowplows! We've just had monsoons. The hail would do the garden in, for sure. I can't imagine trying to grow anything with those kinds of temps. We had two record freezes in May and I had some stuff get zapped even in the greenhouse. Since then it's been cool and rainy. So far nothing's got mildew or blight, and I'll be spraying fungicide if I have to. Otherwise, I'm very glad to have lettuces, peas, spinach and potatoes, because they're doing well. ANother plug for diversity, by the way. If you have all sorts of stuff, hopefully some of it will thrive in whatever weird weather we have. Pagancat (Sheryl) Gainesboro, TN (Zone 6b) June 16, 2009 10:12 PM Post #6698520 Good point.

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