basic how to on propagation based on my experience

Tulsa, OK(Zone 6b)

Greetings to everyone:
I have been asked to start this thread
we came from the coop for propagation supplies http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/863680/

I will do my best to answer any and all questions or requests. All information is based on my personal experience. I will try to check on this thread on a daily basis, but please understand that I have some health issues that may keep me away from time to time. Feel free to dmail me if you need or want to.
A little bit about me. I hold a degree in ornamental horticulture from Oklahoma State University. My major study track was green house production and floriculture. The degree program is a well rounded one that encompasses all aspects of the horticulture field. I ran 2 nurseries in sw florida as well as was in charge of the grounds maintence for all flowers, trees and shrubs at a 27 hole golf course. I have a lot of knowledge but I do admit I don't know everything and I am not afraid to admit it. the picture is an old airial photo of one of the nurseries I ran quite some time ago.
I hope to do a pictured guide on how to prepare cuttings for asexual reproduction of most woody ornamentals and a lot of the plants you see at the local garden center.
Ok now the disclaimer... LOL keep both hands and feet inside the car at all times....
Plant patents: When a grower produces a new sport, cultivar or variation and can prove how they got the results they can apply for a patent on the specific plant. What this means is that the patent holder has the right to collect a fee for every cutting taken from the parent plant that was patented. On the label or tag of a plant it will have a patent number or PPAF - Plant Patent Appled For. From what I have read on the subject the patent is good for 20 years. This is my basic understanding of the process as it applies to propagation by cutting. Most of the pointsettias we all love at Christmas time are patented and they collect so much for every cutting. The patent holder employes school teachers during the summer to travel around to most of the comercial green houses. They then take a measurement of the stock plant and can calculate close to exact how many cuttings the stock plants produce. Patent holder guard their rights vigorously. It figuires out to about 3 cents per cutting. This fee might have changed with inflation.

Thumbnail by Pughbear7
Northeast, WA(Zone 5a)

Really good start Dave. I didn't know you had all of that background. That is wonderful. It is going to be very interesting reading your help to all of us here on Dave's. Thanks so much, and take care of yourself. Don't overdo it.

Jeanette

San Diego, CA(Zone 10b)

Dave, what a privilege to learn from you. In advance, thank you for your time and kindness in passing the knowledge along. I'm looking forward to "lesson #1! : )
Roberta

Gilmer, TX(Zone 8a)

Good job, Dave, just be sure to take care of yourself. We can wait awhile if you have a bad day, but you know I have a lot of questions.!!

Northwest, MO(Zone 5a)

I am looking forward to learning propagation tips from an experienced plants person.

Raleigh, NC(Zone 7b)

Hi everyone-I just saw this thread, and its a great idea! I saw that Lorraine was asking about coleus cuttings and thought I might share this thread that I did, with pictures for doing coleus cuttings. Actually, there are a lot of plants that can be done exactly the same way.

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/596774/

Dave might do this differently, and let us know-but pictures always help me understand something!

Presque Isle, MI(Zone 5a)

Dave Thanks for coming to Dg. Let me be first to ask a question. I have asked this before and never got a responce. How do you propagate Thuja? I will build a mist system if I have to.

Thanks

Gary

Disputanta, VA(Zone 7a)

Looks like you're drawing a crowd dave, good deal. I'll be trying to figure out some stuff for a makeshift greenhouse (if that's even possible) to help me out this winter. Looks like this is right up your alley. First things first, lets get rocking with rooting!

tigerlily, pictures definitely help me to "see" better, I'm very concrete. Good stuff. thanks for the link.
Lorraine you've got all all those coleus cuttings & since I'm learning the right way to root, you may need to slip me a few in with the pot pkgs your sending my way. ;~)

Gilmer, TX(Zone 8a)

They will be on their way, Missy.!!! These things grow a foot a day, I swear.!!! I snip and then it's only bigger, so have plenty.!!!

I want to know what will root in the bubbler. Poor Dave, he'shad a hard day today and think wht he's gonna do when he sees all these questions! lol !1 I say, let's keep him busy!

Barnesville, GA(Zone 8a)

Thanks Dave, looking forward to learning from you!

Speaking of misters, I found these at Walmart in the fan department am am very pleased!! http://www.mistymate.com/category-s/2.htm I just put the CoolPatio 12 which is is 22 feet of mistline with 12 misters and 10' supply line in my greenhouse--will be using this for cuttings I plan to take. I've been using the 6 outside just to keep my transplants hydrated and even with the wind and all, it works great, even just turning them on for a bit in the hot parts of the day. No hubby needed, I did this myself, AND it carries a 4 year warranty.

I started with another company's mistline that I attached to my front porch awning, earlier this summer--now I can happily pot away in the 90+ weather on my patio and my brugs and plants can still grow (most stop growing at 90 deg, correct?) My brugs are certainly the happiest-well me too, cuz I HATE hot weather!!

If I were y'all, I'd run, not walk to Wallyworld before they take them away to put out Christmas!
Vi (not "Viola" please!)

Cordele, GA(Zone 8a)

Vi, do you have your mister on a timer?
Deborah

Northeast, WA(Zone 5a)

Viola were these pvc with joints and ocnnecters? Does the supply line hook up to a regular faucet/hose? Sounds like a good idea,

Jeanette

Barnesville, GA(Zone 8a)

Y'all better call me Vi, lol, or I ain't talkin. I'm old enough but don't wanna sound like someone's old Aunt Viola!

Just got back from WallyWorld with a friend who had to get some after basking in the cooling mist along my porch. Prices are cheaper there than on the website for sure--the 17 was $34 (just 1 left) the 12 was around $24 and the 6 was $16! These are 1/4" lines (hose) with plastic connectors surrounding the mist nozzels which allow you to point the nozzels as you need them. Yes, it does connect directly to any water hose. Once you uncoil the hose, you screw in the brass nozzels 3 at a time until done (follow the directions). Hey, with a 4 year warranty, isn't it worth the money?? I will take the outside ones down for the winter however, don't want to tempt fate...

Since I work at home, I haven't been using a timer, but bought one for the Greenhouse. I found a Melnor Electronic Aqua TImer (#3015) (must be last year's model because it looks like #3010 on the site http://www.melnor.com/products-aquatimers.php) sale at Home Depot for $29. This one is for low pressure drip and soaker hoses, so should be fine--you barely need to turn the water for the mister hoses unless you want to be soaked, so should work ok. This one allows programable settings 3X a day for up to 7 days--it runs on 1- 9 volt battery.

Also got some builder's sand and ready to make a good sized propagation table, as my friend has had much success with his--he just needed a new mister system--his pvc cracked over the winter.

If I can find my dang camera transfer cord, I'll show my happy brugs.

Cordele, GA(Zone 8a)

This is an extremely interesting tutorial. Thanks everyone!

Carrollton, TX(Zone 8a)

Vi - That mister sounds interesting - I'll have to see if my walmart has them - I just ordered a couple ooze tubes - hold 40 gal - drips like a soaker hose - water for 2-3 weeks w/out refilling

Dave really looking forward to your words of wisdom - I've been gardening a while - but a lot has been learn as you go - I have a three year old tropical pool garden that takes most of my time& energy - when that is eventually done - I want to redo the front - actually with your help with cuttings - I won't have to wait to start on the front - I have small gardenia bushes that have been great and would like to have a bunch of them in the front where there are windows - I also want little gem Magnolia trees -- just dove in head first ordering bulbs for back yard

Question - The beds seem to have compacted - I need to rearrange my bog bed - growth was uneven - wetness was uneven - led to uneven growth - huge her - tiny there - the ooze tubes should fix that - I was going to mount them at the back of the beds - to hide them some - Ken(AM Leonard) told me they are pretty ugly- but I have some new plants - White ginger, cannas that are going to be more picky

Anyway I need to add topsoil to bring raised bed back up - I was going to add watersorb crystals about 2 in down - anything else for my bog bed?
I was also going to add some topsoil to under the tree - not by the trunk - Can I shortcut by putting some down first - then the bone meal, then bulbs (mini allium)- then cover with 2-3 inches of topsoil - they are shallow planted bulbs - anything else/different you would do? should I add more soil allowing for the settling?

I deeply appreciate all your help - most of the time I will probably follow thread - gleaning what I can use, hehe- I guess you call that a lurker - I'll pop in now and then with a question - these are my immediate concerns/projects

Thanks,
Esther

Tulsa, OK(Zone 6b)

Hi everyone: I realize I was suposed to chat about soils but a few of you have asked about building a cold frame/ green house (GH).
Ok they can be as elaborate as you would like or just a simple stick frame structure covered with Poly (in the paint supplies at wally world) a thick plastic sheet is advisable. You can buy 3 year product from several suppliers on line. I can point you in their direction, but I am going to stick to this because I am cheap. I prefer to buy out of home depots discount bin in the lumber department. Usually I can buy 2x4 - 4 ft long for 51 cents each.
I am going to base this on a 4ft by 4 ft and 4 ft tall with as many shelves you would like. But keep in mind the higher the stucture the possability for more cold to infiltrate is there. build a basic square out of the 2x4 run one 2x4 in the middle of the 4x4 square. so you will star with 3 - 2x4 - 4ft long on thier side and nail the outside edge to the end of the self base boards. see the attached scan. Make 3 of these.

Thumbnail by Pughbear7
Tulsa, OK(Zone 6b)

Ok now lay the 4 ft shelves on their side and attach one 2x4 x 4ft to the outside corner of one shelf. repeat all the way around the 1st shelf.
lay the shelf on its side and add the second shelf the same way the 1st shelf is attached. finally do the third shelf. I prefer a shelf instead of on the ground as it helps air prune the roots of any plants that may want to root out of their tray. It is not important to keep the boards on the face or the side of the shelf, its what looks best to you.
I realize there is wasted space on the shelves but getting 4 foot boards you usually can get one cut per board from the local lumber yard. I recomend pressure treated wood as we are dealing with soils and water. The pressure treated wood will last longer than staight pine boards. see attached scan

Thumbnail by Pughbear7
Tulsa, OK(Zone 6b)

Ok now you will want to cover the 3 sides and the roof of the cold frame. I would start on the front upright facing board and wrap the poly around the structure. ending on the other facing upright board. Next you will want to build a roof. I would over lap the top down the edges forming a seal over the sides to keep unwanted moisture as well as extra seal over the upper side.
Front door. 1" x 2" 4ft long 4 pieces
2 - small frontal support brace flat "T" shaped
4- small front suport brace flat "L" shaped
3 - small hinges
wrap plastic around the door so that all edges are on the back side of the door
see attached drawing. sorry about the crude drawing.

Thumbnail by Pughbear7
Tulsa, OK(Zone 6b)

Ok now to set a second piece of polly over the framing. Look for a batting tape or woven polly strap about 2" wide. Maybe a strap used to repair lawn chairs. I am not sure what is available in your town. I will make an effort to look this weekend to see what I can find.
Ok now questions I am sure I have completely confused everyone. Oh yea a simple latch hook should work for the door closeing. Sorry I could not be clearer.
Dave

Gilmer, TX(Zone 8a)

Hey, bet I can do that!!!

Tulsa, OK(Zone 6b)

Hi Everyone:
Ok would you like to hear about a home made green house or soil mixes or both and in what order???
Has everyone read the 1st part of the propagation from the germ co-op? Do You want me to rework it and go step by step? I am planning to do pictures and step by step this next week, so these questions may be premature.
Bubblers / Aeroponics:
It is the suspention of cuttings in an aerated water supply. This hinges on hydroponics. There are a lot of sites dedicated to this as both a business and a hobby. Virtually anything that can be rooted in soil can be done in water. The system I have and plan to get out and see how I do in the warmer weather. I would start with an easy to root item such as coleus, mexican heather,sweet potatoe vine. I was instructed to use "olivia's cloning gell along with a starter fertilizer in the water mix. The system is basically a 3 gallon bucket with the lid having 2" holes ut out in a circular pattern covering the lid. A round strofoamish material is slit into the middle with a small whole in the center to hold the cutting. Air is suoolied from a fish aqarium pump through aquarium tubing into a 3" long air stone. Walter needs to be added to the bucket from time to time to keep the cuttings in the water mix. Once roots have formed you then plant the cutting in soil. I will get the exact name and formulation for you on my next post. which will most likely be either tonight or saturday, as I am having a steriod shot in my neck to hopefully make the pain go away (for those who don't know its a long long story).
Planting and transplanting:
The rule of thumb is to move any plant that either is pot bound or ready to move to a new home. I like to start with 4" pots and then go up 2" each time the plant gets "bumped up".
Container sizing:
A 6" pot can be called a gallon, trade gallon, #1 or 6". There are several different sizes in the 6" range. some smaller some shorter (azalea pot). The federal government has made a ruling that nursery containers are not to be called a gallon. Because there are so many different sizes and few hold a true gallon of soil. Your tax dollars at work. LOL
10" container, also known as a #3, 3 gallon (oops can't call it a gallon) and I think a short 10" is know as a bulb pan in the florist trade.
Beyond that it goes #5, #7, #10, #15 and so on.
I hope this helps. Any questions, coments??
Dave

Carrollton, TX(Zone 8a)

I had a question posted earlier - if you have time

Quoting:
Dave really looking forward to your words of wisdom - I've been gardening a while - but a lot has been learn as you go - I have a three year old tropical pool garden that takes most of my time& energy - when that is eventually done - I want to redo the front - actually with your help with cuttings - I won't have to wait to start on the front - I have small gardenia bushes that have been great and would like to have a bunch of them in the front where there are windows - I also want little gem Magnolia trees -- just dove in head first ordering bulbs for back yard

Question - The beds seem to have compacted - I need to rearrange my bog bed - growth was uneven - wetness was uneven - led to uneven growth - huge her - tiny there - the ooze tubes should fix that - I was going to mount them at the back of the beds - to hide them some - Ken(AM Leonard) told me they are pretty ugly- but I have some new plants - White ginger, cannas that are going to be more picky

Anyway I need to add topsoil to bring raised bed back up - I was going to add watersorb crystals about 2 in down - anything else for my bog bed?
I was also going to add some topsoil to under the tree - not by the trunk - Can I shortcut by putting some down first - then the bone meal, then bulbs (mini allium)- then cover with 2-3 inches of topsoil - they are shallow planted bulbs - anything else/different you would do? should I add more soil allowing for the settling?

I deeply appreciate all your help - most of the time I will probably follow thread - gleaning what I can use, hehe- I guess you call that a lurker - I'll pop in now and then with a question - these are my immediate concerns/projects

Thanks,
Kitty

Barnesville, GA(Zone 8a)

This just gets better every day--thanks again, Dave.

Are you saying that you "float" a piece of styrofoam on the water in the bucket? Duh, why didn't I think of that? Can we use some dipngrow in it instead?

I'm hoping to try to root Clematis before it gets too late. Are they too tricky or the wrong time?

Gilmer, TX(Zone 8a)

Styrofoam!!! I've tried everything. Course I'll never find any styrofoam now!

San Diego, CA(Zone 10b)

Dave,
I root most of my cuttings in water. What is the advantage of a bubbler system over just plain water? I always wondered....
Thanks!

Gilmer, TX(Zone 8a)

Ok, I went to Wallyworld, got styrofoam, and guess what. IT WORKS. Thank you David!!!!! Got all my cuttings little leaves outside the water.!! Can't believe after thinking about what to use, I never thought of styrofoam. This thread has already helped!! yipee

Rob, Dave will be able to actually tell you, but I think it has something to do with oxygen?

Northeast, WA(Zone 5a)

OK Lorraine, Dave needed to take a break so it sounds like you got it. You tell me am I to cut a circle out of the styrofoam and place it in the 2" circles cut out of the lid of the bucket? Then put a hole in the styrofoam to hold the cuttings? Is that right? How thick of styrofoam did you get at Wallies?

Dave, I think Lorraine is out there watching for the roots. Can you answer my question? Thanks.

BTW Lorraine, did you dip your cuttings first? In what? hee hee (Just an inside joke)

Jeanette

Barnesville, GA(Zone 8a)

Rob, other perks for bubbling: increased humidity & no need to change the water.

Gilmer, TX(Zone 8a)

I did it probably wrong, but it's working. I had to get the stuff that was about 2 inches thick and 12 inches long and cut it down to about a half inch thick. I just left the length and punched holes in it with a pencil and dropped the stems in and let er go. I put a hole about every inch or so. The leaves are close together, but the stems are fine.

It's floating, so I guess it's working! I actually do have some roots, but that is from before I got the styrofoam. I j ust threw some coleus cuttings in, leaves and all floating around. They hadn't started to rot yet.

Tulsa, OK(Zone 6b)

Rpb yes you can float strofoam in the bucket you may want to do somethink like take a lid and cut out circles in it ti space the cuttings. Just insert the strofoam in the circles. I have found 5 gallon buckets at home depot but I am sure they would have something to make it work at wally world. Maybe in the house cleaning area. Yes the oxygen helps the cuttings form roots and keeps them from drying out or so I have read it some where. I would also add 3 - 6 teaspoons of hydrogen peroxide to the water. I read a thread where they were using it and it increased the root output. I am sure it has to do with chemical reaction of the plants, water and peroxide.
I have not gotten my system to work for me but in all fairness it was november in a drafty house and we lost power for 6 days so that did not help. I am hopeing to get mine going next week. I will be stuck off line for a few days due to having to get my system fixed. My niece dloaded some game and its wreaking avock on the whole thing.
Also I have to go oversee my brother in law on getting a rental property ready to rent. I think he just likes my company. I know he won't let me do anything because he has already told me he is going to do that to me.
Vi I will tell him you said hi...
Kitty lover:
Yes you can build up the bead and place the bulbs where you wany to to save time and energy. Its a smart way to go about it. Some compost might be good to add in as well on your bed. We have a product called back to nature composted cotton seed burrs.
http://www.backtonaturecompost.com/cbc.html
It works well at both helping to raise the organic composition as well as here in oklahoma we have heavy clays so it helps loosen it up and make it mor plant friendly.
if I am understanding you on the tree issue? You want to add soil under the tree to build up the area arround it to plant bulbs there? If this is to eliminate surface roots from the tree the roots shoud re surface. I would tend to avoid covering surface roots because its one of the tree's ways to absorb oxygen and air. I have a similar issue with our new house. our oak tree is huge and has some surface roots. we are planning on planting arround the tree and in the front of a bank of azaleas. We want to get a full range of color all year. If I don't have the idea correct please let me know what I have wrong.
I am not 100% today as I had a steriod injection in my neck and sedation that has my brain a little fuzzy. Fuzzy wuzzy waz a bear fuzzy wuzzy... lol I will try to respond to questions throughout the day today
Dave

Tulsa, OK(Zone 6b)

Good job Lorraine.
I am not sure how to advise on removal without harming the roots. Maybe a slit up to the hols so you can slide it out through the slit.
Dave

North West, OH(Zone 5b)

Great thread, I am engrossed. But I'm afraid I'm a bit like Tigerlily and could reeeeally use some pictures. Can one of you styromfoam-bubbler people post a few pics of your set up?

Jonesboro, GA(Zone 7b)

Just an observation here - seems like when the roots get full, they would easily break off unless you take them out of the styrofoam while they are small. I have used chicken wire over the top of a bucket for the same effect to keep cuttings straight. Also, you can see the root growth.

Raleigh, NC(Zone 7b)

Out of curiousity-why would one want to do the bubbler system to root most plants that root fast and easily in a soiless medium? the benefits to rooting in a soiless medium are that that the roots are superior-they are stronger than those done in water, no trying to get the roots out of the styrofoam (? Not sure that I even understand the system) and once you stick the cutting-you can leave it alone for even 2 months before having to move it up to a larger pot ( i have left liner sheets filled with rooted cuttings for that long).
I can see the humidity factor from the water-but I never put my cuttings under a mister-I just water the soil they are in once a day and maybe hit the leaves with water twice a day. Its the temp of the soil that really promotes root growth (assuming the soil stays moist enough until the cutting starts to root)

Anyway I was just curious....enlighten me!! lol :)

Tulsa, OK(Zone 6b)

Hi I am looking for my camera. As A lot of you know we moved last month and finding anything is like a needle in a hay stack. The standard answer is its in a box in the garage... LOL The starter fertilize I refered to earlier is called Jump start and I got it from Advanced nutrientsc. com. I am in no way recomending this company but they seem knowledgable and eager to help. It is a fomulation ofthiamine mononitrate, fulvic acid, humic acid and sea weed extract. I have a huge phamplet I down loaded off the internet that I plan to reread and share its tips.
In a nut shell I believe these chemicals, fertilizers and/or any of this stuff will help. The jump start can be applied as a foliar as well as mixed into the water in the tank.
I will go further into detail on how to properly build a system like lorraine has started using stuff she has at home. I f you would like me to lay it out with pictures and details please let me know. I realize this has moved from soil based propagation to a more hydroponic style. Its just what works for you. I am planning to set my system up and try several different plants to see which works best.
I plan to try azalea, Carolina jasmine (yellow) - Gelsemium sempervirens, rose of sharon - Hibiscus syriacus, crape myrtle - Lagastromia indica, barberry - Berberis thunbergii , foster's holly - Ilex spp, burford holly, forsythia(should be easy), abelia grandiflora, tropical bleeding heart vine, Cats whiskers, sweet potatoe vine. I relize some of these are among the easier things to root but I want to give the system a good range of plants to try. Pictures will follow as I will find the camera this weekend.
This may be my last post for a few days as I have some things I must take care of, along with the computer needing to go in for a check up.
Please let me know who wants the aeroponics discussion. If its only a few people I will have to do it one on one or another thread at a later date.
Here is a pic of my greenhouse last june before we moved I will show pics soon of the new place ment and bench construction.
Please do not hesatate to ask questions. The only dumb question is the one not asked. We all have to start some where. Please let me know on the aeroponics
Dave

Thumbnail by Pughbear7
Tulsa, OK(Zone 6b)

Tiger lilly excelent point. I have had liners sitting for over a year just because the space was needed for other quicker crops. You will by pass a transplant shock coming out of the aeroponics system. But I believe an anti wilt will help in the hotest part of the summer.
Dave

Carrollton, TX(Zone 8a)

Thanks Dave - no surface tree roots - just compacted soil - I'm not going to plant real close to the trunk - don't want to mess up the tree - It's a Live Oak - I have two bird feeders hanging from it - have tried a couple things in this spot hoping the alliums will do ok - Glad I don't have to do a lot of unnnecessary digging lol - I ordered 60 roseum alliums - In my condition - I must be trying to do myself in - hehe - you know how it goes - they were cheap - I'm a crammer - lol - I also ordered some allium nectarscordum and allium schuberti for other locations - gonna use a tall bulb planter for them -

Thanks again
Kitty

Raleigh, NC(Zone 7b)

Thanks Dave for the answer-but just to clearify-and forgive me, I am really tired so a bit slow on the uptake (!)-but are you saying that there is a transplant shock with cuttings rooted in soil but not in water? Or the opposite?

Barnesville, GA(Zone 8a)

Dave, thanks for remembering me to your B-I-L ;>}

Actually, mine is here this weekend (up from S. Fl.) to help me build a propogation system using builder's sand and perhaps a mix of sand & peat (I've heard that peat holds too much water)? I got 4 - 5" hi x 12' square plastic bins and wonder how much drainage holes they need. Also, is it best to put them on a table ( vinyl covered solid wood ok?) that you can walk around? I'm thinking that once filled with the heavy sand I won't want to move them. Will this be ok for an unheated greenhouse? Trying woody cuttings like confederate jasmine, winter honeysuckle & pittosporum. These bins will be under the mister system as well.

It's a wonder you can keep up with all of us!
Vi

Gilmer, TX(Zone 8a)

About taking the stems with roots out of the styrofoam. I thought I would just cut the styrofoam, won't need it anymore. Would that work? Just have to be really careful. Some of the holes I made pretty big because the leaves I left on were big enough to they didn't slip thru the hole. I should be able to take the styro off pretty easily. Let's hope!! I took a couple pictures of my styrofoam, but don't know if I want ya'll to see it or not! As David said, stuff from around the house. lol

Okay, here are a couple pieces. These I did last night, but am doing some better now that I've kind of figured it out. So, don't laugh!!

Thumbnail by LorraineR

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