Photo by Melody
Are you ready? It's time for our 14th annual photo contest! Enter your best pictures of the year, for a chance to win a calendar and annual subscription here. Hurry! Deadline for entries is October 21.

Pets: Flea & Tick Stuff

Communities > Forums > Pets
bookmark
Forum: PetsReplies: 223, Views: 2,432
Add to Bookmarks
-
AuthorContent
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 3, 2008
2:44 PM

Post #5502570

Hi All,
I'm looking to see what everyone uses for a flea & tick stuff for cats. This has to be OTC stuff. I really don't want to go to the vet for it. What do you give your cat/cats? I'm going to the store tonight to get something for Bandee and Roman. They need it before coming into the house and I want them in soon with the rain that we have coming for this weekend. Please help?
(I had mentioned here that it had to be OTC stuff. We can't exactly afford stuff like frontline. Sorry. Please, if you want to give me heck about something, please save it. I'm new here and I really don't need the stress ontop of other things.)

This message was edited Sep 4, 2008 10:29 AM
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 3, 2008
2:48 PM

Post #5502591

I can't speak for the ones for cats, but there are some horror stories out there about some of the OTC things out there like Hartz brand for dogs. If the same thing holds true for cats, you're better off with the things like Frontline that you can get at the vet. But at least out here you can get those at Petco/Petsmart too, they just typically have them locked up so you have to ask the cashier to get it for you rather than just grabbing them off the shelf.
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)

September 3, 2008
3:02 PM

Post #5502663

You can also buy Frontline and Advantage on eBay, you just run a risk of it being "expired". Check the vendor's feedback very carefully before you order.
Amber_lee
Seminole, OK
(Zone 7a)

September 3, 2008
4:34 PM

Post #5503044

I prefer to just use a flea comb and pick them off. I had a cat I nearly killed because he was allergic to the flea poison I put on him. It made me scared to use anything so now everyday I run the flea comb over my animals instead of using poison. Of course, it takes time everyday to do this. I put poison on my yard to control the fleas and ticks.
I would like to know of a product that works that isn't too strong.
von219
Matewan, WV
(Zone 6b)

September 3, 2008
4:52 PM

Post #5503106


PLEASE, before you buy ANY of the over the counter flea control, read the thread I started last week asking if anyone thought that OTC flea stuff could cause seizures in cats.

I'm now convinced that is what caused my cat to seizure once a month when I would put Hartz liquid (on the back of the neck) of my cat. It's a wonder that I didn't kill him...

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/896653/
momcat
northeast, IL
(Zone 5a)

September 3, 2008
5:16 PM

Post #5503218

Many of the pet stores in my area sell Frontline and Advantage, it is pricier than at my vet, but it is available. You should be able to get some from your vet without an appointment, I would think. I just call them when I need more, to make sure they have enough in stock, and stop by and pick it up.

Deb
laurief
Deer River, MN
(Zone 3b)

September 3, 2008
7:56 PM

Post #5503851

If you can buy Advantage or Frontline at your local pet store, those are the safe and effective products to use. They can also be purchased widely over the internet, and your vet will also have them.

I would never dare risk buying any other type or brand of flea product from any retail store, including spot-ons, collars, shampoos, dips, powders, etc. Waaaaay too many of them are highly toxic and have been implicated in the illnesses and deaths of many cats and dogs.

I don't know why you're adverse to buying safe flea products from your vet, but if you end up poisoning your cats with toxic storebought flea products, you're going to end up spending a bundle at your vet's, anyway, trying to save their lives.

Laurie
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)

September 3, 2008
8:06 PM

Post #5503884

I bought a package of Frontline through eBay that included one dose for a large dog, an insulin syringe (No needle) and a small vial. The vendor calculated the dose for a cat and it is 1/8 th of the big dog dose - .5 ml. For about $22 I have enough Frontline for 8 doses for my clowder. I was at the vet on Saturday and told him what I had done and he didn't say anything negative - just asked how I knew the dosage. The vendor did state that the dog dose is missing one of the durgs that the cat dose has - but that it should still work. Well - I gave the cats a dose and Sampson still has some fleas; my other guys may have some - but I haven't seen any on them.
momcat
northeast, IL
(Zone 5a)

September 3, 2008
10:49 PM

Post #5504570

I didn't think you were supposed to use the Frontline for dogs on cats.

If you go to their website, there is a coupon for a free month when you buy 6. My vet already offers this, without the coupon. http://frontline.us.merial.com/offers/offers_coupon.asp

Deb
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 3, 2008
11:06 PM

Post #5504627

The active ingredient in the cat and dog Frontline products are the same (fipronil in the plain version and fipronil and S-methoprene in the Frontline Plus), so as long as you adjust the amount to be correct for the cat it should be fine. There was another flea product several years ago (or maybe still is) where the dog version was very harmful to cats. I don't remember the brand but if I remember correctly the active ingredient was/is permethrin.
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 3, 2008
11:11 PM

Post #5504645

Well I bought Sargeants Silver for the cats. I just got finished putting it on them. I will wait and see what happens. One thing I won't use again is the sargeants Nature's guardian. That stuff is crap. Plus you need to put it on them outside because of the herbal scent.

palmbob

palmbob
Acton, CA
(Zone 8b)


September 3, 2008
11:38 PM

Post #5504723

Sergeant's and Hartz products are not only risky, but USELESS. They have been around for over 40 years and didn't work then, and still don't work now. They hardly sold back when I was just becoming a vet 20 years ago since they had such a horrible reputation and everyone knew better not to use them... but when Advantage and Frontline got on the market and we finally had two products that WORKED, were NONTOXIC to dogs and cats and did not get absorbed into a pet's system (unlike these Hartz and Sergeant's products), I thought this would surely be the nail in the coffin of those other worthless and dangerous products. No such luck. In fact, the exact opposite happened. Hartz and Sergeants products have never had such popularity thanks to Advantage and Frontline coming out in a very similar spot-on type format. Now most of the lay public can't tell all these products apart, and that is just what those other companies were hoping for (and reaping the huge profits, too, for worthless and dangerous products). Sigh. If you insist on using potentially toxic products on your pets, at least follow the directions closely (I have seen so many dying cats and small dogs from excess or incorect flea products applied to them I feel like screaming sometimes- people use these products despite the warnings all over the packets... it never ceases to amaze and disappoint me). I couldn't care less if you get your products bootleg or legally, just get the safe and effective ones. There really is no expiration date on Frontline and Advantage so that shouldn't be an issue.
laurief
Deer River, MN
(Zone 3b)

September 4, 2008
1:34 AM

Post #5505373

intrigue3, in light of the toxicity issue with Sargeant's flea products posted by our resident vet, Palmbob, I sincerely hope that you will IMMEDIATELY bathe the product off of your cats very thoroughly BEFORE they have a toxic reaction. If you wait until symptoms of toxicity present in your cats, it may be too late to save them.

Laurie
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 4, 2008
4:33 AM

Post #5506059

Yes, please take it off. There have been others in this forum whose cats have had seizures from that stuff. It's a bad idea.
von219
Matewan, WV
(Zone 6b)

September 4, 2008
5:01 AM

Post #5506095


Palmbob,

I was looking on ebay today for the Frontline for cats and I noticed most of them were made for dogs but were being sold to cat owner, just gave directions how to give a smaller dosage for a cat...is this acceptable to do this for a cat?

palmbob

palmbob
Acton, CA
(Zone 8b)


September 4, 2008
5:14 AM

Post #5506115

the product is indeed exactly the same for dogs and cats. You can apply any amount of Frontline you want, though you will waste product if you put too much on (but it will not hurt your cat). It will not last longer either the more you put on. And if you put an excessive amount on your cat, you will probably annoy it, and it will be more likely to over groom and take most of the product off that way. So try to approximate the correct volume.
von219
Matewan, WV
(Zone 6b)

September 4, 2008
5:48 AM

Post #5506187


Thank you Palmbob for your expert advice. Did you get a chance to view the link I posted above in this thread about my cat having seizures? If not, at your convience would you read it and tell me what you think?
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 4, 2008
10:31 AM

Post #5506380

I realize you all want to give me all holy heck for getting that. When you don't have other options, there's not a whole lot you can do. Our vet keeps weird hours. And we only have one means of transportation. Usually by time hubby gets home, most places that are good to buy from are closed. So when you don't have other options, you go with what you can. My neighbor's brother is a vet, so I'm sure if I get something that would kill my cat, we would know about it. I only put the stuff behind the neck so that it wouldn't go into the face or other areas. This way the cat doesn't lick, eat or get it on their paws. I will try to do better in the future. Sorry.

meezersfive

meezersfive
waukesha, WI
(Zone 5a)

September 4, 2008
12:34 PM

Post #5506659

Didn't believe me when I told you that in Coffee, huh? I hope this has convinced you better than I did.
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)

September 4, 2008
12:47 PM

Post #5506705

intrigue3 - I buy most things on the internet and have the post office just deliver to my door - makes my life easier. I got the frontline in two days when I ordered it.
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 4, 2008
1:50 PM

Post #5506940

I've found the prices online for Frontline are often better than if you go to the vet or pet store for it, so you may save money as well as it being less trouble for you to get it. But if you can't do that either, honestly I'd skip the flea medication totally rather than use one of those other products. (And it doesn't matter where you applied it, those products get absorbed through the skin which is part of what contributes to them being so potentially harmful)
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 4, 2008
2:16 PM

Post #5507048

At the moment both cats seem to be doing ok. And giving them a bath would be majoirly out of the question unless I want to be clawed to death.
laurief
Deer River, MN
(Zone 3b)

September 4, 2008
2:23 PM

Post #5507074

I hope your cats survive the "treatment" you gave them and suffer no long term neurological effects from it. Honestly, I can't understand why you would post for help and then completely ignore the wise advice given and turn around and knowingly do something that could harm your cats. You DO have options:

1) Have your vet mail appropriate flea products to you.

2) Order appropriate products from catalogs or online.

3) NOT put toxic chemicals on your cats after having been advised of the danger.

You simply made another choice.

Laurie
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 4, 2008
2:27 PM

Post #5507095

It doesn't mean that you have to get mad. I made a mistake. Haven't we all? Could you not give me heck for it? Sorry for pissing you off.
laurief
Deer River, MN
(Zone 3b)

September 4, 2008
2:34 PM

Post #5507128

My concern is not with you; it is with your cats. I continue to hope that they will be OK.

Laurie
vhanna
Hugo (Vicki), OK
(Zone 7b)

September 4, 2008
2:46 PM

Post #5507190

Check out the organic guy www.dirtdoctor.com
Look under library and click on F for fleas.
Also flea repellant for pets. Organic mixture to put on cloth collars for pets. I ordered my essential oils from www.essentialoil.com
Also give my dogs garlic gel caps every day. It's working
Tells you what to shampoo your dogs/cats with. additives to food etc.
Lots of wonderful information on that site if you want to go organic in gardening etc.
Hope this will help you.'
Vicki
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 4, 2008
2:53 PM

Post #5507221

What I used before on my cats was the Sargeants Nature's Guardian. Sure the stuff smelled when you put it on. It kept the bugs away but it also powdered up on my cat. My cat still survived. So I'm figruing the Sargeants Silver won't kill my cat. She seems to be doing just fine as well as the other cat. I can't afford 40.00 for the other stuff. And the most places I checked out were 40.00 and down to 30.00. We have a hard enough time making ends meet at the moment with only hubby working. What little bit of money that comes in from me isn't much. Otherwise yes, I would be buying it. It's bad enough the last time we took our dog to the vet cost us just under 150.00. When we saw that we about flipped. Thank goodness it only happens once a year.
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 4, 2008
2:56 PM

Post #5507236

Thanks vhanna, I will check that out. I appreciate it.

Well after looking, my vet and the vet my neighbor uses don't get that stuff.

This message was edited Sep 4, 2008 11:01 AM
snipesk
Blythewood, SC

September 7, 2008
1:01 AM

Post #5518241

I have had very good results for years buying Frontline and Heartgard on line from Pets Mega Store in Australia , there prices are good and Robert will talk to you on the phone or e-mail you. I haven't seen a flie or tick on my dogs in years. They also have cat supplies. Pat
2vernes
Blytheville, AR
(Zone 7a)

September 7, 2008
3:12 AM

Post #5518724

I went to the vets office the other day to purchase my regular frontline plus for the kitties and the receptionist talked me into Revolution. I put it on the cats and they are okay, but does it take care of the fleas as well as frontline? I sure hope so, it cost more. Three doses for 55 dollars. Anyone had any experience with it????? Laverne
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 7, 2008
3:15 AM

Post #5518736

I think it costs more because it has heartworm medicine in it too. I've never tried it though so I don't know how well it works.
2vernes
Blytheville, AR
(Zone 7a)

September 7, 2008
3:16 AM

Post #5518739

She told me that it took care of ear mites, too.

palmbob

palmbob
Acton, CA
(Zone 8b)


September 7, 2008
3:20 AM

Post #5518754


Revolution works equally well against fleas as does Frontline and Advantage... BUT... it takes 2-3x as long for the fleas to actually die (4-5 days). Still, all the fleas die... you just have to put up with them longer. This product works differently than the other two... it does get absorbed into the blood stream, while the other two stay on the surface of the skin only. That is how this one kills heartworm larvae. It is very effective against ear mites, but then ear mites are very easy to get rid of with lots of different products.

Larkie

Larkie
Camilla, GA
(Zone 8a)

September 7, 2008
3:25 AM

Post #5518765

Ask your vet to sell it to you by the vial..(Frontline or Advantage)..Mine does.. Makes it easier on the pocketbook, $$...I have 10 cats but buy in bulk anyway, but my vet will sell one vial at the time, instead of the package of three. Sure helps...For cats, Fronline is only $13.00 per vial.

Larkie
2vernes
Blytheville, AR
(Zone 7a)

September 7, 2008
4:28 AM

Post #5518987

Thanks, everyone, for the information----think I'll stick with Frontline after this is gone.

palmbob

palmbob
Acton, CA
(Zone 8b)


September 7, 2008
1:55 PM

Post #5519815

Am just getting off a shift at the emergency clinic now... and had two maltese that the owner used, of all things, the Sargeant's flea product. Both where on 'pins and needles' and had to be given medications for inflammation and vomiting even after the owner tried to bathe off the product 3-4x. Wish that stufff would get taken off the shelves!
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 7, 2008
2:28 PM

Post #5519971

I don't understand why those products haven't been pulled from the shelves, there are so many horror stories out there about them. If it was a drug for humans I'm sure it would have been recalled a long time ago!
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 7, 2008
5:52 PM

Post #5520751

You know, I keep seeing you all down stuff. The cats are still very much around. They are not having any problems. Maybe it';s the way some people put it on the animals. All I know is both cats are doing just fine. So with that said, this will be my last post here.
von219
Matewan, WV
(Zone 6b)

September 7, 2008
6:29 PM

Post #5520865


Palmbob,

Not sure if you saw the message that I posted above for you. Maybe you've just been very busy. I'll copy it here...

=================================================

Thank you Palmbob for your expert advice. Did you get a chance to view the link I posted above in this thread about my cat having seizures? If not, at your convience would you read it and tell me what you think?

[HYPERLINK@davesgarden.com]


sjweld
Reedsburg, WI
(Zone 4b)

September 11, 2008
6:36 PM

Post #5539231

[quote] You know, I keep seeing you all down stuff. The cats are still very much around. They are not having any problems. Maybe it';s the way some people put it on the animals. All I know is both cats are doing just fine. So with that said, this will be my last post here. [/quote]

I don't have any furry pets and read this thread for other reasons but I have to say this. I once knew a man who smoked from the time he was 9 till he died at age 91, I sure wouldn't smoke or tell my kids to smoke because "Look, it didn't hurt him."

There is a LOT of research out there that backs the claims on this thread. There are reasons these people, including a VET, are making the remarks they are making.
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 11, 2008
8:57 PM

Post #5539752

Good point.
melvatoo
Denton, TX
(Zone 7a)

September 12, 2008
1:12 PM

Post #5542231

I really can not comment, as I do want to remain on Daves but I am biting my tongue...

Jeannie63

Jeannie63
Mequon, WI
(Zone 4b)

September 12, 2008
3:08 PM

Post #5542687

ditto...
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 12, 2008
3:43 PM

Post #5542823

Palmbob, got a question. You wrote;"Revolution works equally well against fleas as does Frontline and Advantage... BUT... it takes 2-3x as long for the fleas to actually die (4-5 days). Still, all the fleas die... you just have to put up with them longer."

When Revolution first came out, we had one of the reps talk to us about the best way to use it. He told us that we'd still need to use Frontline or Advantage for up to three months, until the Revolution "kicked in" (which I took to mean until the product built up in the body). I have used it, but never was overly impressed. Things may have changed by now :)
Maybe you would have a comment on some of the other things I noticed,
Revolution claimed to control internal parasites as well. We got several pets with high parasite burdens and dangerous anemia( from Roundworms/hookworms, even whips) even after some months of using it, and no-one checked because they were "protected". Never any problems with HW, which to me is most critical.
I never saw Revolution as anywhere near as effective as Advantage, or even Frontline (which my fleas survived better than Advantage). It was much more expensive, and as I had a different way of protecting against HW, I mostly quit using it. I did continue to use it on the ferals I had to trap, but they're now all confined.
Revolution, unlike Frontline and Advantage has different formulas for dogs and cats. It can be split, but your math has to be better *G*. I use the largest (Blue) dog Advantage at a rate of .05 ccs per pound, or, more simply, .4 ccs per adult cat (unless they're huge). 10 doses per vial. Most of the online vet supplies (KVVet is my favorite) offer free shipping over a certain amount, so it's really economical if you can do that.

There's really no excuse to use toxic products on your animals if you do the work to research it.

Essential oils, and "natural" flea products are something else I avoid completely. Essential oils are toxic to cats anyway (http://www.thelavendercat.com/) and most natural flea products contain unregulated concentrations of potentially toxic (tho "natural") components.

I'm sorry that intrigue3 got upset at the responses she got, especially after buying and USING exactly what she was advised against, but,

she did ask :)

palmbob

palmbob
Acton, CA
(Zone 8b)


September 13, 2008
3:55 AM

Post #5545379

So far as I know, there is very little resistance to any of the new flea products by fleas (a few resistant populations have been created in the research field, but in 'real life' there has been little proof of this occurence). So all the flea products should work equally well. They just work at different rates. Advantage is fastest and Revolution is slowest. But all are nearly 100% effective at killing 100% of the fleas. If you see different results, it is probably due to either fleas dying slower, they are being applied incorrectly, or there are lots of fleas in the environment and new ones keep jumping on all the time (this is the most common reason for perceived failure of these products). Be sure not to bathe off the products (Revolution is hard to bathe off as it gets absorbed almost immediately), or not to apply them right after a bath (again, this does not apply to Revolution).

Just in case you were not aware of it, there is a new flea product that seems pretty exciting: Spinosad (also known as Comfortis). This is an ORAL tasty once a month product with the following advantages:
1) it is FAST- kills all fleas in less than 1 hour... and lasts up to a month or more
2) since it's oral, no messy applications or oily mess and no worries about it being bathed off. For some animals, this is a huge advantage as they hate anything topical applied to them... for others, particularly small, skinny dogs that don't go for treats much, it may be far more difficult than a topical.
3) it's cheaper than Frontline Plus, and about the same or a little less than Advantage (and WAY cheaper than Revolution).

the disadvantages are:
1) ONLY in dogs (at least so far... cats dont' go for oral meds much)
2) it's new, so I can't say for sure it's 100% safe, but it seems to be so far

I have been using it in my dogs and it works great, and so far, all my dogs loved it. Can't guarantee that all yours will, though. Does nothing for heartworms, other internal parasites etc. But something to ask your vet about next time you go in.
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 13, 2008
4:24 AM

Post #5545490

Do you think that it might last longer than Frontline? That's what I've been using on my dog, he is allergic to flea bites and had some horrible issues a couple years ago and after many trips to the vet, they finally sent me to a doggy dermatologist who told me it was fleas that were causing his problems and that I should put Frontline on him every 2 wks instead of once a month. That's been working so far (although I do cheat a bit, in the colder months I usually back off to once a month, and in the warmer months I usually wait about 3 wks unless I see him starting to scratch). But I don't really like the idea of using it so often, so if this new stuff would last a bit longer then I'll definitely ask if my vet has it. My dog's never met anything remotely treat-like that he didn't thoroughly enjoy, so I'm not too worried about that part!

palmbob

palmbob
Acton, CA
(Zone 8b)


September 13, 2008
5:29 AM

Post #5545645

Frontline is harmless if applied every day... but can quickly cost you a fortune... and the associated oily mess would be a drag. I think Comfortis would be an excellent alternative as the fleas don't live nearly as long as with Frontline (which has a good 24-48 hour kill time, as opposed to 30-45 minutes for Comfortis). Ask your dermatologist what they recommend (who is yours, by the way?).
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 13, 2008
2:22 PM

Post #5546414

Thanks palmbob, I will ask my vet about that one. The dermatologist we saw was Dr. Carlo Vitale. We only saw him the one time though, he suggested more frequent Frontline and that solved the problem so we haven't been back to see him since then.
mommie
Weslaco, TX
(Zone 9b)

September 14, 2008
1:55 AM

Post #5548936

Intrigue3; Aren't you glad you asked? Shame on these people for taking you to task. What part of "I can't afford the expensive stuff at the vet" don't they understand? I am poor too & I don't buy it either. it is overpriced & don't work on my dogs. I absolutely have no fleas hidden in the cracks. I'm sure you love your cats as much as everyone else does,so please give this poor woman a break. This is what I do & it works. I buy a product from the hardware store called Enforcer & spray it indoors. It interrupts the flea cycle which is very important in getting rid of the fleas. I then buy from the vet a product called Ovitrol & spray it on my pets. My vet charges $15.00 & 1 pint will last you a long time as you only have 2 cats, The indoor spray is 1 gal. it's cheap & if you don't live in a castle will last a long time too. It works for me & will for you. You don't have to spend $80.00 every 3 months. Another thing, you should keep your cats indoors. Less fleas,less sickness,less vet bills & everyone knows how outrageous they are! Lastly let me tell you how to kill ticks.Cheap very cheap. Dawn dishwashing soap. I've used it for 20 yrs.& I swear by it. Good luck to you & they owe you an apology!!!
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 14, 2008
2:00 AM

Post #5548961

I think we all totally understand that some people can't afford expensive medications. In this case though given all the bad things that are possible with that sort of flea medication, personally I'd skip the flea medication entirely rather than put something on my dog that had the possibility of causing all those problems.

trackinsand

trackinsand
mid central, FL
(Zone 9a)

September 14, 2008
2:08 AM

Post #5549014

i used comfortis one time when we first introduced heidi into our household and my local vet had stopped selling anything but the comfortis. i used it on jasper and heidi got the one advantix i had left. i have to say it worked like magic (very fast) and with no side effects. i've since switched vets and get my advantix online through drs.foster & smith. that company is the cheapest i've found and free shipping too. i would have stayed with the comfortis but it was high. i can't remember now, somewhere between 12 and 17 for one pill.

as far as the rest of this thread is concerned: i'm biting my tongue too...

This message was edited Sep 13, 2008 10:13 PM
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 14, 2008
2:12 AM

Post #5549028

That's good to hear about another good experience with Comfortis--I'm definitely going to talk to my vet about it for my dog, but if it's more expensive than Frontline then maybe I'll stick with Frontline instead. I usually get my Frontline from Dr. Foster & Smith too, they do have really good prices.

trackinsand

trackinsand
mid central, FL
(Zone 9a)

September 14, 2008
2:17 AM

Post #5549050

i edited my post. i always say smith and foster instead of foster and smith! lol i used frontline forever and suddenly it just wasn't working on these two. that's why i switched to advantix in the first place. my vet may have been overcharging for the comfortis. talk to yours and see what they say. i'd rather go without a meal than put something potentially harmful on my animals and now i really am biting my tongue...again.
sjweld
Reedsburg, WI
(Zone 4b)

September 14, 2008
2:57 AM

Post #5549180

trackinsand, how do you get free shipping from drsfostersmith? I order a lot of my parakeet stuff from them and have had to pay no less than $9.99 shipping.
von219
Matewan, WV
(Zone 6b)

September 14, 2008
4:24 AM

Post #5549440


Does anyone know if the (S)-methoprene (an Insect Growth Regulator, which prevents an insect from maturing or reproducing) that is in Frontline Plus is harmful to cats. I'm getting ready to order and I don't want to order the Plus if the methoprene can cause side effects. It's been almost 2 months since my kitty has had a seizure and I don't want to buy anything that may have toxic ingredients in it.

I realize the Frontline and Advantage are non-toxic.

Another question...Is Advantix on the non-toxic list or is it just another name for Advantage by another company?
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 14, 2008
4:33 AM

Post #5549462

Advantix is not the same thing as Advantage--I think they are both made by Bayer and they both have imidacloprid in them, but Advantix also contains permethrin which is dangerous for cats. So if you are looking for stuff for your cats I'd stay away from that one.
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 14, 2008
5:17 AM

Post #5549554

sjweld - I think the free shipping may only be for U.S. mail regular. Maybe even only flea and tick products. I got it from them, too.

Mommie - it wasn't so much that we didn't understand about the money (I'm not made of it either). It's that we we warning intrigue about nasty side effects that could endanger her pets. For her/him to ask us and then post that she had gone ahead and ignored us could only make us angry. Everyone here is only concerned about the animals. No apology coming from me. I'm appalled that she would put her pets' life in danger despite being warned by so many caring and concerned people.

Ecran - just talked to my friend (also a vet) about the Comfortis. She's only heard good things. I think the only drug interaction to be wary of is for dogs on heartworm-eradication levels of ivermectin if I understood her correctly.

trackinsand

trackinsand
mid central, FL
(Zone 9a)

September 14, 2008
12:27 PM

Post #5549938

drs.foster & smith run specials from time to time with their free shipping. prescription orders (through vet) are always free shipping. the advantix has an additional 'tick killer' in it and regardless of whether you use advantage or advantix, neither is to be used on cats. they make a feline advantage.

what katie said...
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 14, 2008
1:01 PM

Post #5549990

trackinsand wrote:" regardless of whether you use advantage or advantix, neither is to be used on cats. they make a feline advantage."

Canine and Feline Advantage are exactly the same product. It is quite safe to use the canine version on cats, as long as the dosage is correct. Advan "TIX" is NOT safe for, and should not be used on, cats.

trackinsand

trackinsand
mid central, FL
(Zone 9a)

September 14, 2008
1:17 PM

Post #5550030

i stand corrected but also stand by my post. it is best, imho, for the general public to use a feline specific product on cats so that there are never any doubts or confusion regarding what to use and what not to use. many cat products can be used on dogs but most dog products cannot be used on cats.
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 14, 2008
1:27 PM

Post #5550054

mommie wrote;"What part of "I can't afford the expensive stuff at the vet" don't they understand? I am poor too & I don't buy it either. it is overpriced & don't work on my dogs."

It's a matter of what you wish to expose your critters to, as well as cost. People offered ways to cut cost on "safe" products, but s/he chose to use something else. That's an individual choice, and I'm glad that the cats are fine, but I've seen MANY cases where it wasn't fine. In truth, the cheapest method was mentioned in the fourth post, the Flea Comb. It's a lot of work, but very safe. In addition, these are apparently outside cats, so it would not be easy to keep up with the fleas.
The subsequent posts by intrigue3 gave a lot of info, including the comments that there was no transportation until after the husband came home, a Vet that keeps weird hours, and "good" stores that apparently aren't open when the husband/transportation is home.

It's a choice.If you want a safe and cost effective method of dealing with fleas, it's there. When asked, the responders went to some trouble to try to help, and it's annoying to do that, and then have it basically thrown back at you. I have lots of ways to save money on "cat stuff" that I've learned over 30 years of rescue. I just found one new way yesterday, so it constantly changes. I am happy to share what I've learned, for the sake of the cats, and believe me, I know how tight money can get. It's often just more work to do it safely and cheaply, rather than getting something from a Bog Box and hoping for the best.

I don't think anyone who answered didn't understand the issue of cost. Even the hartz/sargeant's stuff costs money. Unfortunately, the Vet bills (assuming that vet care is obtained) may end up being much higher than the "good stuff" would have been.

margo
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 14, 2008
1:31 PM

Post #5550076

trackinsand wrote:"it is best, imho, for the general public to use a feline specific product on cats so that there are never any doubts or confusion regarding what to use and what not to use.

I completely agree :). I just wanted to clarify, because the thread had mentioned using dog sizes of Advantage and Frontline safely on cats. Didn't want anyone to panic if they'd done so. I didn't mean to jump on you, sorry if that's how it came thru :(.
laurief
Deer River, MN
(Zone 3b)

September 14, 2008
1:34 PM

Post #5550091

Margo, how would you feel about starting a new thread all about money saving tactics for pet care? I, for one, would be VERY GRATEFUL to read any and all money saving strategies you would be willing to share.

Laurie
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 14, 2008
1:38 PM

Post #5550114

If you have animals you should have a vet. He/she can tell you what its going to cost.
OTC pet medications are a waste of money, so if you don't have much money why would you want to buy those?

My dog is allergic to fleas. He is taking a once-a-month pill called "Comfortis". Without it he is a naked dog.

On dogs that are no allergic I have a battery operated flea comb. It zaps the fleas and combs at the same time. It takes a little training to get the dog used to being zapped.

If you can't afford to take your animals to the vet when they need it, then you can't afford the animals.

Money Saving strategy: battery operated flea comb.

This message was edited Sep 14, 2008 8:39 AM
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 14, 2008
2:30 PM

Post #5550317

Gloria wrote;"If you can't afford to take your animals to the vet when they need it, then you can't afford the animals"

Gloria, I've always felt that way, too. I've also always believed that a pet is a lifetime commitment. What happens when the means don't match the needs?
When I adopted my critters (most are leftover rescues considered unadoptable) I could afford them. I still saved money where I could, but it wasn't desperate.

That has all changed. I'm now struggling to keep us all above water. I still have an "Emergency Fund", but it may not be long before food is an emergency. The cows are the worst. They are now very high cost, because of the recent drought years. Cat and dog food has gone waaay up. Worst of all, I lost big in my investments, which were what kept us all going, leaving me able to stay home and do the work.

I'm, not whining, much. If I'd been a better manager, I wouldn't be in this pickle. It's my fault, but for lots of people that's not the case. They are in dire straits thru no fault of their own.
What is the answer? Euthanise the pets? Or keep on trying? Go to cheaper foods, and change the yearly Vet visit to an "as needed" basis?

I don't know, but my attitude towards people who can/cannot afford pets has changed drastically.

margo
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 14, 2008
2:34 PM

Post #5550336

laurief wrote;"any and all money saving strategies you would be willing to share.

Laurie, I'd be happy to share all of it, but much of it isn't of value if you only have one or two pets. It's the cost divided that helps, the initial cost often isn't much less. And some of it is not, well, strictly legal. Many of my stategies involve the active participation of a Vet, allowing me to get prescription items in bulk, so a med that costs a great deal if purchased for an individual is cost effective for a group. For example, certain antibiotics that cost $75 for a single course of treatment may cost $150 for enough to treat 10. Also using products meant for one species on another is known as "off-label" and legal for Vets to prescribe, but I'm afraid that posting such on a public forum might be frowned upon...

margo

This message was edited Sep 14, 2008 10:42 AM

Larkie

Larkie
Camilla, GA
(Zone 8a)

September 14, 2008
2:37 PM

Post #5550342

Vet bills are outrageous, but what isn't these days? All my critters are my babies and deserve the best. It is hard.. Over the years, the best way for me is to throw all of my loose change into a jar at the end of the day.. You will be surprised to see how it will add up..

I save it all, but really try to save all quarters and dimes more than the smaller..When vet bills pop up or time for heartworm or flea treatments, I usually have most of it..

This is also used for all the rescue's that I have taken in.. Everyone is spayed or neutered through the change saving.

It nearly kills me now to use any change, lol..

Larkie

I have 10 cats
3 dogs
goats
chickens/ducks/guineas/
birds & fish
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 14, 2008
2:49 PM

Post #5550369

To me there's a big difference between people who couldn't afford to properly care for a pet in the first place but chose to get one anyway, and someone who did have the resources to care for a pet when they got it, but has now fallen on hard times due to circumstances beyond their control. I don't think anyone here would would condemn someone in the latter situation.

trackinsand

trackinsand
mid central, FL
(Zone 9a)

September 14, 2008
3:20 PM

Post #5550492

one thing that i don't think was brought up in the beginning of this thread is the fact that apparently the only reason these cats were getting ANY kind of flea treatment is because they were coming inside for the storm. while i commend intrigue on wanting to save them from the trauma of severe weather, i have to say that the poor cats should have been receiving flea treatment all along, whether indoor/outdoor or strictly outdoor cats.

this post is not meant to cause another flare-up, just an observation that i think is worth mentioning.
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 14, 2008
4:53 PM

Post #5550905

In case you all didn't understand me, which a lot of you didn't. I was LOOKING to see what you all used. It didn't mean I had to follow. If you were going to jump off a bridge, do you think I would follow you to do that? I think not. And the flea stuff I used has not caused any kind of side effect. Now this will be the last time I write here.

I want to thank those who have stood by me. I greatly appreciate it. Remember one thing people, when someone asks for advice or anything, it doesn't mean to be mean and cruel to that person if they don't do what you want them to do. If you were in my situation and klnow what happens here from day to day, you wouldn't be judging me like you've been doing. So please kindly leave me alone now.
LouC
Desoto, TX
(Zone 8a)

September 14, 2008
5:08 PM

Post #5550955

When we first retired we had to make the vet "as needed". In order to get the flea protection it was necessary to pay the whole enchilada for a trip to the vet. Soo, I purchased the Sargeants Natural at Petsmart.
My poor little Schi Tzu was one of three dogs at the time. She almost immediately was frothing at the mouth and having seizures. I called the 800 number on the box and got a "form letter" type response from the person on the other end. Anyway, we bathed her and threw away the Sargeant's. No offer of money back. A national company has opened in our community that has the name of "Vets Hospital". We are able to purchase Advantage or Frontline without seeing a vet first.
After years and years of Heartguard Plus, we can't afford it any longer.

The main products that are so beneficial and needed are over-priced just like my own meds. I am currently in the doughnut hole with Plan D Medicare and just one of my meds is $336. per month. Who do I give the meds to, the dogs or myself?



Christi

This message was edited Sep 14, 2008 12:09 PM
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 14, 2008
5:32 PM

Post #5551027

Didn't mean to cause hard feelings - only to make a stand for the animals.

I don't have much extra money either - I mean I don't have any extra money. But Ive found over the years that it is better to afford the heartworm meds than to try and save a dog that has them. Ill cut back on my own groceries to do that.

Recently I found that my chow mix just cannot survive without the expensive allergy meds for fleas from the vet. O.K. Ill cut back some more. Try to get an extra job.
(Im retired).

I guess Im fortunate because my vet has spade and treated animals at no charge just because I brought them in -- not even my animals. His prices on advantage and heart guard are cheaper than on-line sources.

I depend on my dogs because I can't hear. They let me know what's happening and they keep me safe.
von219
Matewan, WV
(Zone 6b)

September 14, 2008
6:50 PM

Post #5551316


Some how one of my questions got lost in all of the responses...if anyone knows please reply...Thanks in Advance.

====================================================

Q. Is the (S)-methoprene (an Insect Growth Regulator, which prevents an insect from maturing or reproducing) that is in Frontline PLUS harmful to cats?

trackinsand

trackinsand
mid central, FL
(Zone 9a)

September 14, 2008
6:56 PM

Post #5551336

if you don't get a response, please call your vet tomorrow and post back here so that we all get an answer to your question.
mommie
Weslaco, TX
(Zone 9b)

September 14, 2008
7:52 PM

Post #5551497

I think we all on this thread agree,we love our pets to death. Some of us have money,some of us don't. We do the best we can with what we have. 3 yrs. ago I was middle class & doing well. Then my husband died suddenly &now I'm poor . We were already on Social Security & when he died it was cut in half. Now I struggle. I have 8 cats & 2 dogs. All of them strays. I am pushing 80 yrs. & have had pets all my life. I have always cooked for my dogs. My dogs will never get sick from contaminated food. The cats eat Iams indoor kibble. it recently went up $4:00. They eat 2 bags per month. My theory is feed them the best & you cut down on vet bills. My pets are all inside. Only the dogs go out,on lead 3 times a day. They bring in the occasional flea. As I have explained I don't have a flea problem & I do it on the cheap. I guess this is more than you ever wanted to hear about my life. I just think if someone want's some tips on how to care for their pets,how better to learn than from people who know how to do it cheaply. You don't have to take my advise or anyone elses. That's what advise is. Take it or leave it. The flea comb sounds like a good idea,but my animals would never sit still for that. GLORIA125; We should all have a vet like yours. What a guy!! My vet is the only one in town. he makes a fortune on his clientle. I am lucky I have a small IRA. When I need the vet I go to the bank. Let's not fight girls. Love your pets because they love you with all their little hearts. GOD bless!!!
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 14, 2008
8:04 PM

Post #5551531

Mommie: I hope you and your animals are safe from the storm and its aftereffects.

gloria

trackinsand

trackinsand
mid central, FL
(Zone 9a)

September 14, 2008
10:39 PM

Post #5551957

food for thought and very well said. we're not really fighting. just having a discussion.
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 15, 2008
2:37 AM

Post #5552860

Ditto - I think this is a great discussion, if a bit heated. And I hope that there are lots of people out there who are learning that just because Petsmart sells a medication that doesn't mean it can't kill your pet. If we've saved one family the heartbreak of their pets death because they chose to read through all this and take heed, then it's worth it.

I've always been single and was unemployed for a year with 5 dogs and 11 cats. So I, too, have my story. It was and still is hard - but I haven't stopped listening to others, doing without, shopping around, comparing vet opinions and prices to keep my pets safe. And I won't . . . they depend on me . . . and I on them. :-)

palmbob

palmbob
Acton, CA
(Zone 8b)


September 15, 2008
4:45 AM

Post #5553206

The Methopreme on Frontline plus is harmless to cats... or any mammals as far as we know. It is strictly an insect hormone... and doesn't harm the flea, per se, either... just renders it sterile.
von219
Matewan, WV
(Zone 6b)

September 15, 2008
3:47 PM

Post #5554486


Thanks Palmbob, now I can order...
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 17, 2008
11:52 AM

Post #5562488

What do you all think about Scratchex shampoo?
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 17, 2008
11:57 AM

Post #5562505

What are you trying to treat?

Larkie

Larkie
Camilla, GA
(Zone 8a)

September 17, 2008
11:58 AM

Post #5562509

In my case, it was wasted money, my dog that it was bought for, had to have allergy pills to help..Made her scratch the hot spots worse..Almost anything I would use on her skin made her bite and scratch herself worse, so it could have been any kind.

Larkie
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 17, 2008
12:17 PM

Post #5562553

Trying to make her itching and scratching stop.

This message was edited Sep 17, 2008 8:18 AM
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 17, 2008
12:55 PM

Post #5562712

Looking at the ingredients, it will only help if the dog (?) has fleas or mites, it seems to be basically an insecticidal shampoo. If you're using something for fleas, it isn't a good idea to add something else. I wouldn't use it on a cat, so I'll go ahead assuming it's a dog. Does the skin seem to be dry? Oily? Any sore, and if so, where are they? Head shaking? What is the dogs' diet? Any supplements? Has he/she been checked for mites?
If you want a shampoo that's formulated to stop general "itchies" I'd start with a good quality oatmeal shampoo. If that's pricier than you want to go, I can find my old recipe for an oatmeal rinse. Lots of shampoos are drying, and will make the dog even itchier without some kind of conditioner. Never use a human shampoo on a dog or cat.
In my experience, most dogs with problem skin turned out to have nutritional issues, either allergies or poor diet, but I'm no Vet.
I'm hoping Palmbob will have some thoughts...
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 17, 2008
1:24 PM

Post #5562840

Actually I have an oatmeal shampoo.

I just did a little research and found that the flea & tick shampoo I used on my dog is more safe than some shampoos out there. In fact the shampoo I am using on her is used in Advantage and 9 advantix for dogs. And that's sold only through vets. So I am treating my dog with something that is not going to hurt her like some shampoos I found out there. I'm pretty happy knowing that. And no, I never use our shampoo for our dog. That's a no no. Thanks for your help.

palmbob

palmbob
Acton, CA
(Zone 8b)


September 17, 2008
3:38 PM

Post #5563496

There really is NO reason whatsoever to use a flea and tick shampoo anymore. They are toxic, no matter what someone tells you. Granted, most are mildly toxic, but relative to non-toxic products like Imadcloprid (Advantage) or Fipronil (Frontline) they are highly toxic. And they are not nearly as effective. Advantage and Frontline, if applied properly, kill 99% of fleas. Flea shampoos kill maybe 50%, and wash off most of the rest (you can get nearly the same effect with any oatmeal shampoo as far as washing off the fleas), but you will invariably leave a few... and most flea shampoos are quite irritating on the skin and drying. ALL shampoos are drying, making the coat slightly irritated and itchy. Even moisturizing shampoos are drying, just less drying. If your pet is itchy, best to use a leave-on conditioner after each shampooing to restore at least some of the oils/moisture.

so I am not saying dont ever use a shampoo (and catmad is right, NO human shampoos- we have different pH to our skin and human shampoos can leave a pet's skin severely inflamed and unhappy)... but don't use a shampoo with poisons in it if there is no need to. Just use a nice, soothing shampoo and apply a non-toxic flea product a day or so later (have to wait a day, or else the product will just sit there, not spreading, and usually get wiped off on the environment somewhere... like your couch or bed. This is because you just removed all your pet's oils by bathing it, and the oils are how these products move from a single spot on your pet's back to the rest of its skin).

meezersfive

meezersfive
waukesha, WI
(Zone 5a)

September 17, 2008
4:38 PM

Post #5563721

As usual Palmbob gives excellent advice, which I am sure will be ignored by the starter of this topic.

intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 17, 2008
5:12 PM

Post #5563848

Palmbob, are you a vet? If not stop condemning me.

And as for you meezer, I'm not doing anything wrong so you stop condeming me too.

And to put a final touch on this subject, DH has said that we will only do the shampoo, that's where it stands. If the shampoo is so toxic, then so is the goop stuff.
sadie_mae
Central, KY
(Zone 6b)

September 17, 2008
5:52 PM

Post #5563996

Yes, Palmbob IS a vet, as you would have known if you had read his post...like this one

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=5504723

or this one

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=5519815

I have stayed out of this thread until now, but I just have to ask...WHY do you ask for advise if you are going to totally ignore the advise given, when it doesn't seem to fit your way of thinking??

I have asked several questions in the past and have never been steered wrong by anyone on this forum and have been GREATLY helped by most of them.

meezersfive

meezersfive
waukesha, WI
(Zone 5a)

September 17, 2008
6:10 PM

Post #5564052

I am not "condeming" you, obviously you do not wish to get advice, you only wish to argue with those who are kind enough to respond your inquiries.
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 17, 2008
6:19 PM

Post #5564080

Is DH a vet?

trackinsand

trackinsand
mid central, FL
(Zone 9a)

September 17, 2008
6:36 PM

Post #5564132

i've learned so much from this thread, so thank you to all the contributors. as for intrigue, the originator who asked for advice, i'm taking this off of my watched threads because sooner or later i'm gonna blow and it won't be pretty.

9kittymom

9kittymom
Bartlesville, OK
(Zone 6a)

September 17, 2008
6:37 PM

Post #5564134

[quote] I have stayed out of this thread until now, but I just have to ask...WHY do you ask for advise if you are going to totally ignore the advise given, when it doesn't seem to fit your way of thinking??
[/quote]

My sentiments exactly! Why ask when you are going to do what you want to do in the first place?

Susan
=^..^=

9kittymom

9kittymom
Bartlesville, OK
(Zone 6a)

September 17, 2008
6:38 PM

Post #5564140

Yeah Debi, I guess I BLEW!!! LOL

meezersfive

meezersfive
waukesha, WI
(Zone 5a)

September 17, 2008
6:43 PM

Post #5564151

I'm unwatching too. Don't even know why I came back for more of the same ...
sjweld
Reedsburg, WI
(Zone 4b)

September 17, 2008
6:43 PM

Post #5564154

[quote] Is DH a vet? [/quote] Good question because his word sure seems to be awfully final.
laurief
Deer River, MN
(Zone 3b)

September 17, 2008
6:56 PM

Post #5564199

My post to this thread immediately after palmbob's on Sept. 3 identified palmbob as a vet, so intrigue was already advised of his professional status. She has been receiving FREE veterinary advice on this thread repeatedly from palmbob, and all he has received in return is disregard and disrespect from her. Not a single word of gratitude for taking the time to share his professional knowledge to a complete stranger.

Palmbob, I thank you sincerely on my own behalf for your continued generosity of time and knowledge which you share with us here on the Pets Forum. You are a gift, and most of us here know it.

Laurie
IO1
Waaaay Down South, GA

September 17, 2008
7:12 PM

Post #5564253

I'm not unwatching ... I'm waiting for the shoe to fall. I'm not believing this entire thing?
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 17, 2008
7:14 PM

Post #5564264


Well put, Laurie. Thanks so much Palmbob.

I'm trying to remember that these posts are to share information, not to reach universal agreement (not always easy for me). I can always learn something.

I'm not so aggravated that people don't follow advice given (I've been known to stick to my guns on some things) as I am when they verbally "throw down the gauntlet" (imo, pick a fight) by publicly stating that they don't like my advice.

I'm guessing that is what is irking most of us here. I would say to anybody online or in person, "Please don't ask me why or how and then tell me directly that you don't care what I just said and that you're not going to do it. Thank me for my opinion and then walk away. Or engage in dialogue with me."

That having been said, I've actually learned a ton here and would like to thank intrigue by starting the discussions, however you responded to what you heard. I hope you (and DH) have learned things as well and reach a satisfactory treatment, budget and/or health wise for your pets. That's really what counts in the end.

And, I'm sure we've saved a lot more pets from toxicity than are represented by actual posters. That is also good.
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 17, 2008
7:42 PM

Post #5564369

intrigue3 wrote;" In fact the shampoo I am using on her is used in Advantage and 9 advantix for dogs. And that's sold only through vets.

I'm confused...there isn't any shampoo in Advantage, and I don't know what 9 advantix is. Advantage is no longer sold only thru Vets, it's OTC.

If you're comparing the three products (assuming 9 advantix is the same as Advantix) ingredient-wise, the shampoo you mentioned, "Scratchex" contains Pyrethrin and and Piperonyl Butoxide. Advantage is Imidacloprid, and Advantix is Imidacloprid plus Permethrin (a synthetic pyrethroid). They're just not the same. Neither is the safety or the potential toxicity.

But in the end, you have to find out why the dog is itching and scratching, and fix the cause. Shampoo won't do it.

catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 17, 2008
7:48 PM

Post #5564388

Katie59, great post! After years of trying to convince people of different things about pet care, from diet to safe toys to flea prevention, I finally convnced myself that my job was to help the pet. If it meant explaining the same thing 22 different ways, 23 different times, if it finally got thru, it was worth it. It didn't always, and there are marks from my beating my head against the wall in some places I used to work...
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 17, 2008
8:01 PM

Post #5564439

Yes. I would like to thank Palmbob also, for his input in this thread and elsewhere
on DG.

Our animals deserve so much more than they usually get.

P.S. I have had dogs prone to hot spots and flea allergies. The advice has always been don't bathe them at all. That dries their skin. They can be "drycleaned" with a barely damp washcloth. And brushed and combed.
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 17, 2008
8:04 PM

Post #5564449

Gloria -

When my Whippet was young and had demodex, I took him to a veterinary dermatologist. I asked about the bathing thing. His response was that it was all about the shampoo. He said you can bathe a dog every day (and he was having some of his clients do that for their dogs) as long as you are using the right shampoo.

I don't pretend to have the answer, just thought I'd pass that along.
intrigue3
Hillsboro, NH

September 17, 2008
8:29 PM

Post #5564546

Since it seems like I made a joke of myself. I will no longer be on here. Advice is advice. I don't have to take it. I can leave it like I did. You don't run my family and vet or no vet, you don't tell people what they have to do. I didn't say that the shampoo was in the goop, I said an ingredient was in the goop. I'm tired of you people critizing me and putting me down now. I won't be replying anymore. So now you can jump on someone else. As for you being a vet, at least my vet isn't pushy like you. Good Bye.
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 17, 2008
8:56 PM

Post #5564639

Please don't overlook this comment from my post above. It is sincere.

"That having been said, I've actually learned a ton here and would like to thank intrigue by starting the discussions, however you responded to what you heard. I hope you (and DH) have learned things as well and reach a satisfactory treatment, budget and/or healthwise for your pets. That's really what counts in the end."

Thanks,

Kathleen
IO1
Waaaay Down South, GA

September 17, 2008
9:05 PM

Post #5564679

In3 ...
I've kept my mouth shut, both here and over on parking lot when you were nasty to my friends. I have a question for you before you go, though.

Why come here and ask for advice, if that's truly all you were wanting and then post the following remarks.

"And to put a final touch on this subject, DH has said that we will only do the shampoo, that's where it stands. If the shampoo is so toxic, then so is the goop stuff.{"

All you had to do was ask for advice. You never had to post you didn't take it. How would that make you feel if you'd taken your time to help someone, and they flung it in your face? Just back away from the keyboard when you disagree ... It's easy. Quite a lot of us have done it on this thread.

Thanks y'all for all the things I've learned here. Great info ... tolerance and like I knew always ... DG is the best! ^_^

Hugs&blessings ... ~Susan

edited cause my quotes didn't work. I'll work on that! LOL

This message was edited Sep 17, 2008 5:07 PM
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 17, 2008
10:18 PM

Post #5564940

QUOTE:

"This has to be OTC stuff. I really don't want to go to the vet for it. "

Intrigue 3.

If you can't afford the vet, you can't afford the animal.



sadie_mae
Central, KY
(Zone 6b)

September 17, 2008
10:31 PM

Post #5564996

She's already had her subscription cancelled and can no longer access this forum...

9kittymom

9kittymom
Bartlesville, OK
(Zone 6a)

September 17, 2008
10:49 PM

Post #5565044

glad to hear it!

=^..^=
gloria125
Greensboro, AL

September 17, 2008
11:25 PM

Post #5565176

I wonder if she learned anything. I sure did!
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 18, 2008
12:29 AM

Post #5565471

I think there was some great discussion here and I know I learned a lot of things I didn't know before about flea medicine, so regardless of what decisions anyone made about how to treat their pets, I think there's a lot of good info here that many other people can use now or in the future. So I hope nobody who contributed or gave advice here feels like they wasted their time!
AYankeeCat
Fairfield County, CT
(Zone 6b)

September 18, 2008
12:32 AM

Post #5565483

Another sincere thanks to Palmbob for his help and advice. I always learn so much from him!

9kittymom

9kittymom
Bartlesville, OK
(Zone 6a)

September 18, 2008
12:51 AM

Post #5565577

Yes, I too want to thank Palmbob for his help and advice! He has helped me and my friends so many times.

He is a great guy!

Susan
=^..^=
Maria
Rehoboth, MA
(Zone 5a)

September 18, 2008
1:01 AM

Post #5565647

The pros and cons of this thread have been very interesting , I hardly ever check the pet column though I have a Golden Retriever for more than 3 years and did show some photos of him some time ago. Samson's vet is a great guy and I adhere to his advice carefully.
I live in a rural 'tick and flea' area but Samson never had either because once a month an application of Bayer K9 100 Advantix and Interceptor tabs for heartworms is also given.

My neighbor told me her beagles are full of ticks and fleas, she herself has contracted the dreaded Lyme disease, but I do not know what med she is using on them, would think it is the best med since they are not poor at all. I have had a few ticks on me some years ago one time I needed an injection, have not had any since.

Just thought I tell you aabout what I do as far as my wondeerful Samson is concerned

flowAjen

flowAjen
central, NJ
(Zone 6b)

September 18, 2008
1:06 AM

Post #5565676

Wow, that was some great entertainment! And I did learn a lot.
sjweld
Reedsburg, WI
(Zone 4b)

September 18, 2008
1:34 AM

Post #5565830

I would also like to thank PalmBob for all of his time spent sharing his information with us. :) I don't have cats or dogs, but have 4 parakeets and Palmbob has also replied in some threads I have started here as well.

Jeannie63

Jeannie63
Mequon, WI
(Zone 4b)

September 18, 2008
1:59 AM

Post #5565982

I think some of you may have missed the crux of In3's problem. She stated "DH has said that we will only do the shampoo, that's where it stands" and several other comments to that effect, i.e. her DH lays down the law in her house.

Seems to me that even if we had given her food for thought, she was unable to convince a possibly controlling DH that there are alternatives to the therapies *he* is willing to pay for.

Maybe what she really needed was some advice on how to break free from an unhealthy relationship.

9kittymom

9kittymom
Bartlesville, OK
(Zone 6a)

September 18, 2008
2:39 AM

Post #5566211

I guess I'm not that sympathetic. IMO, she had no intentions of taking any advice. She just wanted to stir things up.

=^..^=
sjweld
Reedsburg, WI
(Zone 4b)

September 18, 2008
2:40 AM

Post #5566213

Very good point Jeannie! I had noticed the underlying problem also. I did sort of elude to it, but was not that pointive.
Anna_Z
Monroe, WI
(Zone 4b)

September 18, 2008
2:57 AM

Post #5566331

Well, I had NO idea PalmBob is a vet...thought he was just "into" palms. ^_^

Just gonna toss my 2 cents worth in here...I've been using Revolution on my 4 cats. I get the 80 pound dog dose (2cc size), I think it was for an 80 pound dog...anyway, whatever size it is, it was on my vet's recommendation to make it cost effective. So, since HE says it is ok, and I "think" he has treated more cats than I have, I will listen to him. Cats are doing fine with it.

ViolaAnn

ViolaAnn
Ottawa, ON
(Zone 5a)

September 18, 2008
3:05 AM

Post #5566377

Jeannie - you may be right on the money.

Anyway, I'm saddened that there has been such a controversy. Don't spend much time over here as I no longer have pets though I'd LOVE to have another cat. DH, OTOH, says "no!" and we travel so much he's probably right. Just have to love my grand-dog, I guess.

Ann
von219
Matewan, WV
(Zone 6b)

September 18, 2008
4:36 AM

Post #5566707

I really appreciate the FREE advice Palmbob has given us all...

It had been so many yrs since I'd had cats, that I was out of touch with what was on the market for them. Since the sudden seizures my cat began having once a month and me finally getting leary of the role the OTC stuff possibly played in them, I just didn't know what to do for him (the vet couldn't find any reason for the seizures). I'm SO glad I decided to ask the DG Pet Forum members (on another thread) if they thought the OTC stuff could be responsible. I was shocked at what they told me about the OTC products.

He has not had a seizure since July 21st. But, I was at a loss of what to do, I was scared that the products sold at the vets office were basically the same stuff and could possibly make him seizure as well...until (on this thread) Palmbob cleared up the differences between what is in the OTC products and what products are safe...thank you, thank you and my kitty and dog thanks you.
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 18, 2008
4:40 AM

Post #5566713

You guys saw the thread with this, right? Sending out the link is a great way to spread the word:

http://www.hartzvictims.org

Procrastinator
Havelock
Canada

September 18, 2008
4:43 AM

Post #5566718

A big thanks to all who contributed to the knowledge I have gained from this thread. It has been a bumpy read sometimes, but very informative. It saddens me to see such gut churning remarks made by the person who initiated this thread but I managed to bite my tongue and knew it would play itself out.

Thank you Palmbob for all the excellent advice given here and for sticking with it. Also thanks to all others who contributed very helpful, informative facts.

Otis and Nimo will benefit from what I learned from this thread. I am so relieved that this upheaval is over. Really puts a stain on DG when such ungrateful remarks are made. Perhaps somebody needs our prayers and not our criticism. Tough to do though. I will, however, try.

God Bless and Thanks

Hugs Elaine and Otis
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 18, 2008
11:31 AM

Post #5567070

Well, I learned a lot, just from replying to her questions. I wonder if she has any idea that people really went out of their way for her? I made sure I looked everything up, and that I posted only info I could back up with facts.
If she's in an abusive situation, I'm sorry, but I don't think that's it. I think it's a matter of her wanting to abrogate responsibility, and blaming it on him.

Oh well, if one critter has benefited, that's enough :)
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 18, 2008
7:11 PM

Post #5568844

Yes.

Speaking of fleas and ticks - I should mention on this thread that we are getting ticks more and more on the west side of the mountains in Washington. For the longest time we didn't have to worry about them.

And then I heard a couple of months ago about a lyme disease diagnosis for a dog in Woodinville. Heartworm is still pretty much unheard of here, but I'm sure that's coming too, especially with global warming.

So it's important for those of us in Western Washington to find products that work for us as well.
Maria
Rehoboth, MA
(Zone 5a)

September 18, 2008
8:30 PM

Post #5569091

Katie, yes I have been told ticks and heart worm is non-existing in western WA
mommie
Weslaco, TX
(Zone 9b)

September 18, 2008
9:44 PM

Post #5569326

Wow! No ticks or heartworm in Western Washington. We should all move to Woodinville. My vet told me just last week he sees 9 animals a week with heartworm. Can you imagine? I live 6 miles from the Mexican border in S.E. Texas. Not a very good place to raise a pet if you can't afford heartworm meds. Did Y'all know that humans can get heartworm? Kind of scary,huh? Maybe our resident vet could say a few words on that subject. Should be a good discussion. You know,it takes all kinds of people to make a world & we sure have a lot of them here on DG. Makes life interesting!
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 18, 2008
9:53 PM

Post #5569343

Well we didn't used to have ticks, but we have them (and Lyme disease) now. And lots of deer to carry them.

I'm hoping the heartworm will take longer to come. I had heard that we'd get it soon after a lot of Katrina rescues were shipped up here to rehab and find homes (they'd have it, mosquitoes here would bite them and transmit it to other dogs), but I haven't heard of that happening.

Plenty of fleas, though.
von219
Matewan, WV
(Zone 6b)

September 19, 2008
3:31 AM

Post #5570597


I went on Ebay to buy the vials of Advantage flea control but I didn't know who was trustworthy and safe to buy from. I finally chose someone with 100% Positive feedback. When I emailed them to ask for their address so I could send them payment, it was an Animal Hopital in Florida. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post their Ebay link on here and/or the Hospital address, but if anyone wants it, just D-Mail me.
wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

September 26, 2008
2:21 AM

Post #5600330

I seem to be having a bad time with fleas this year. I have two cats and one dog, all of which are on Frontline Plus. I'm still finding fleas on them. *sigh* One of the cats spends a fair amount of time outdoors and is probably the main source of our problem. FWIW, both cats are senior barn rescues and I'm hesitant to force them to live indoors 100% of the time.

There is a lot of information in the above posts and I will need to go back to read through thoroughly once again, but in a nutshell, am I right in thinking that if I were to make a change in flea products at this time, I should consider Comfortis for both feline & canine use? How about Advantix?

thanks!

wren107

wren107
Jacksonville, FL
(Zone 8b)

September 26, 2008
2:47 AM

Post #5600450

for a shampoo that is good for itchy skin and will help discourage fleas some, try Murphy oil soap. I learned about this from the local Sharpei people. They use it on their dogs and remember that their breed has a lot of skin problems. I have used it on my Tervurens with good results.

Sandy

palmbob

palmbob
Acton, CA
(Zone 8b)


September 26, 2008
3:52 AM

Post #5600661

Comfortis is for dogs only. I have no idea if it's safe for cats or not, but it certainly isn't labeled for them.. Advantix will work no better for fleas that Frontline... but maybe a bit faster. But again, don't use that on cats!
George
Valinda, CA
(Zone 10a)

September 26, 2008
8:06 AM

Post #5601006

I have been following this thread from the beginning and have noticed that it gets quiet and than intrigue3 pops in again and makes inflammatory statements that many people fall for. She speaks of a husband so I will call her she.

Many of her statements are just in accurate, as regards ingredients and/or names of products. There is no photo of her beloved pet. I wonder if we have an irrational person here who is deliberately trying to cause problems. It has occurred before here at Dave's.

Some of you who have been attacked should talk to Dave.

Well, I am late, as is often the case. Intrigue3 has been removed.
roseimp
(Rosie) Belturbet
Ireland

September 26, 2008
9:18 AM

Post #5601026

I only ever use vetenary bought de-fleaers and wormers on my animals. I've found that shop bought ones just don't work. We have products here from a company called Shirley's which can be purchased in any supermarket - they are absolutely useless and as far as I'm concerned they should be banned. Like anything you've got to use proper products regularly or else they are not effective. I have to de-flea my animals every month especially as Stan has a flea allergy if one even touches him. It's prevention more than cure in this case. I can't keep this mutt out of water - he loves it and it would be a crime to stop him. I don't suppose it does his allergy any good but there again to prevent him enjoying the water would mean he missed out on a whole lot of fun.
I have tried all sorts of products on my animals - even natural ones with mixed results but I always seem to come back to the ones sold by my vet - in many ways it's easier to buy from them as there's not too many good products here. I put down the cost as necessary "maintainance" - as someone said - if you can't afford the maintenance you shouldn't own animals.
Ticks are a whole new ball game. We used to have them on the working dogs. Coming down from the mountains we would often find them stuck to the dogs flesh. They have really nasty mouth parts which attach themselves like glu to an animals flesh and won't retract if you tug on them. In fact it's better not to tug on them as if the rear part falls off then you got problems.The best way I've found to deal with ticks is to place a lighted cigarette on their rear ends, this causes them to retract their mouth parts and let go. If a mouth part gets stuck in an animal and the tick subsequently dies, you are in dead trouble - they can cause really nasty infections which will cost oodles to fix.
wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

September 26, 2008
11:03 AM

Post #5601134

Thanks, Palmbob. I'm looking for something that I can use on both dogs and cats. The Murphy's Oil Soap shampoo sounds interesting (on the dog), but I'll have to look into it further.

*sigh* I guess we just need a hard freeze
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 26, 2008
11:45 AM

Post #5601209

Wrightie, I never have had any luck with Frontline on my cats. Works okay on the dogs (I worry about ticks on them, they run in the fields and play with me in the garden), but is pretty much useless on the cats. I'm still using Advantage, and it's still working. I used it in Fl, which seems to have the toughest fleas in the world, and here in SC, where they're not much better.
I do have a situation with lots of cats (former rescue) and that may contribute, but I've heard the same from people with as few as 2 cats. I split the large dog Advantage, but it is identical in formulation to the cat.

margo

wren107

wren107
Jacksonville, FL
(Zone 8b)

September 26, 2008
11:58 AM

Post #5601239

The murphy's oil soap will not hurt, does leave a nice odor and the hair and skin is not dried out.
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 26, 2008
7:05 PM

Post #5602781

When my cats were outside, I noticed the same thing. My vet sells Frontline, but I find that Advantage worked better and more quickly for us for flease. We have ticks now and Lyme has been found in the area, so I'm using that on the dogs and the 1 outdoor cat.

If I need it I have Advantage for the indoor cats at the ready . . .
roseimp
(Rosie) Belturbet
Ireland

September 26, 2008
7:49 PM

Post #5602900

I don't think we can get most of the products you talk about here in Ireland Kathy and Sandy. I would like to use reliable and more natural pet products but it's just down to one each; frontline for dogs and I can't remember what the stuff is for cats. I do use a different product for each though as I know that each requires a different type of treatment.
I do sometimes use natural products but can only get them from the US and some European online shops. Sometimes the European shops are more expensive than the US ones - postage is criminally priced whoever I get them from. It seems unfortunate that we have to use a chemical based product to treat pets. I would feel far more comfortable using a natural one.
I do think it might be a good idea to have a pets product forum which could direct people to reasonably priced and effective treatments. Other peoples experiences are worth more than money.
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 26, 2008
8:01 PM

Post #5602944

Yes, it's troublesome that you have a whole different set of products available to you and that we don't have that many other members from Britain.

I haven't been over to the dave's garden pet site in quite awhile. Is there a forum there for such discussions? It's a good idea . . .
roseimp
(Rosie) Belturbet
Ireland

September 26, 2008
8:17 PM

Post #5602986

Ireland is very different from the UK Kathy - think UK minus a couple of decades LOL. You can get just about anything you want in the UK - at a price but here there's only a very limited choice. Pets are just not high priority here and we've only got one small animal vet in about a radius of 25 miles. If you don't like them or question their treatment you got to go over the border to the North. So no impartial info here either.
roseimp
(Rosie) Belturbet
Ireland

September 26, 2008
8:42 PM

Post #5603070

Can't get onto the dave's pet forum Kathy LOL - it won't acccept my password.
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 26, 2008
9:57 PM

Post #5603367

d-mail an admin (is it ecrane who manages this). I think it has something to do with your subscription expiration date or something weird like that.
roseimp
(Rosie) Belturbet
Ireland

September 26, 2008
10:43 PM

Post #5603515

Thanks Kathy - I will emial them tomorrow. Can't think it's subscription though as I'm a newbie. Never mind - time for bed.
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 26, 2008
11:11 PM

Post #5603589

It's not about your subscription per se, but about the renewal date the system has stored or something like that.
wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

September 26, 2008
11:17 PM

Post #5603607

I'm taking the puppy in the vet tomorrow morning, so will see if they carry Advantage and possibly switch everyone over to that.

At one point, they (my vet's office) were carrying Promeris, but thanks to the big scare going around the internet, they may have stopped. I'm kind of chicken about trying anything new anyway. Anyone here using Promeris?
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

September 27, 2008
12:34 PM

Post #5605221

*g* In cases like this, I'm very much "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". As long as what I'm using works, I'll use it. I know what to expect, and how everyone reacts to it. Not that new may not be good (I am very fond of Capstar), but in general, I'm pretty happy with dinosaurs :)
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 27, 2008
2:00 PM

Post #5605494

I hope you get some relief, Wrightie. It's frustrating to fight those beasties when you can't find something that works.
wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

September 27, 2008
5:02 PM

Post #5606051

I agree, Catmad. In this case, it's definitely broken though. :)

Well, I was at the vet's this morning and chatted with him about the flea situation. (btw, I *really* like this guy, I did a lot of research before choosing him for my Dane puppy) His opinion is that Frontline is pretty much useless on fleas, but because ticks and lyme's disease are prevalent in this area, it's a good idea to keep the pup on it for ticks. His suggestion is, at least for the next couple of months while the fleas are BAD locally, rotate btwn Frontline and Advantage every two weeks (FL, wait 2 wks, Advantage, wait 2 wks, FL ... ).

The cats will be switched to Advantage, and only Advantage. && I hope this does the trick!

I've been googling using Murphy's Oil Soap as a canine shampoo and found both positive and negative information ... sooooo ... I will stick with our usual doggie shampoo, with a moisturizer chaser. ;) We have a show tomorrow morning, so I will be bathing the boy today, and will hopefully drown a bunch of fleas in the process. I'll start the Advantage in another week or so (not sure if it's okay to apply only one week after giving the FL, especially on the kitties).

Edit: Oh, just to be clear, Advantix was not even a consideration for the dog. My vet will not give Advantix to dog owners who have cats in the home as it still poses a serious danger to the cats.



This message was edited Sep 27, 2008 1:26 PM
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 27, 2008
5:26 PM

Post #5606131

Glad you have a solution . . .

Just an FYI - I LOVE the earthbath products - the dogs coats seem to do fine and it smeels luscious. Comes in all different "flavors".

http://www.earthbath.com/shampoo_pints.html

Good luck in the show tomorrow!!

wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

September 27, 2008
5:28 PM

Post #5606136

Thanks, Katie! I'll need all the luck I can get.

Earthbath is 'Zactly what I have, as a matter of fact! heh heh

(also, I edited above post re: advantix)
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 27, 2008
5:33 PM

Post #5606153

You could also try applying Frontline more often--my dog is very allergic to flea bites and was having lots of problems, but the doggie dermatologist we ended up going to see eventually told me to put it on him every 2 wks instead of once a month and that's been working great for him so it definitely does have an effect on fleas, just doesn't last quite as long as it's supposed to.
roseimp
(Rosie) Belturbet
Ireland

September 27, 2008
5:49 PM

Post #5606194

That's interesting Liz and definatly a help to me and my flea allergic mutt. I thought you could only use Frontline once a month but as Stan is in and out of the water I will use it more often. My vet doesn't bother to tell you these things - just promotes expensive injections.
wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

September 27, 2008
6:26 PM

Post #5606309

In our case, I do not have confidence that Frontline is working at all on the fleas, so applying it more often would feel like I was throwing $ away. And since I have to get the stuff for dogs *over* 100lbs, that's more money than I'd care to part with.
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

September 27, 2008
6:37 PM

Post #5606338

The other thing about Frontline is that you're not supposed to give them a bath for a couple days before or after you apply the product--that might be the problem with yours Rosie if he's in the water all the time. The afterwards part makes sense, I'm not sure why you can't give them a bath a few days before but that's what the dermatologist told me.
roseimp
(Rosie) Belturbet
Ireland

September 27, 2008
6:44 PM

Post #5606356

OK I may have to rethink this then. But there's not too much choice here. If I have to keep him out of the water AND use Frontline every 2 weeks it won't work in other words. My brain is just playing catch up LOL

edited to place an L in playing LOL

This message was edited Sep 27, 2008 5:45 PM
wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

September 27, 2008
6:45 PM

Post #5606358

I think PalmBob had mentioned that the product disperses better/properly when there are oils on the coat/skin, so methinks that that's the reason for not bathing too soon beforehand.

The things we do for our biddybabies! =)

This message was edited Sep 27, 2008 2:45 PM
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

September 27, 2008
6:50 PM

Post #5606375

Well, that and the fact that if they have fleas WE have fleas. I'm so grateful for the developments in flea and tick controls in the last 10 years.
roseimp
(Rosie) Belturbet
Ireland

September 27, 2008
6:51 PM

Post #5606378

I can't keep my boy out of the water - he's 7 and it's what keeps him fit. Other dogs of his age and type are already having to contend with joint problems. I think I'm going to look at natural products again.
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

September 28, 2008
7:31 PM

Post #5609930

check out prices at jeffers and drugstores .com .beats fosters and smith . also at risk of really making you mad ,intrigue , perhaps a new home for your pets would be a win win solution , if i couldn't afford a computer , i certainly would 't have one . just another friendly option . sally
roseimp
(Rosie) Belturbet
Ireland

September 29, 2008
8:26 AM

Post #5611947

LOL Sally - she got fed up with us and left DG altogether/

Rosie :-))
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

September 29, 2008
9:06 AM

Post #5611962

yeh, Rose, I always heard there are two things you can't fight , ignorance and poverty .If you don't believe that , try selling an insurance policy to someone that is ignorant , or can't afford it . I think that would apply to good flea meds . I just couldn't believe some of the whining even after PBob gave all that FREE information . sally
roseimp
(Rosie) Belturbet
Ireland

September 29, 2008
12:00 PM

Post #5612235

I just think she was a wind up Sally. I don't actually think there is such a person as she's tried this sort of stunt on other forums. According to her she's got a good purebred dog (unlike mine) and cats which are probably not moggies (unlike mine also) and still she whinges about the cost of treatment. It's not like she had any other types of meds problems to think about; ie allergies or something singular - she just wasn't prepared to fork out for good treatment. As someone once said, it's funky weirdness!
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

September 29, 2008
12:35 PM

Post #5612344

I'm with you . Couldn't contain my cattiness ,and sarcasm . O.k , DG, Ill be better . sally
Jenks
Social Circle, GA
(Zone 8a)

September 29, 2008
7:17 PM

Post #5613970

I had never heard of Comfortis until this - I JUST found out about Capstar - and used it today...And comfortis lasts a whole month? I can't even comprehend Capstar and now Comfortis sounds even better.

I'm tripping that the thread starter thought it was going to cost $30-$40 to treat her cats with something better than OTC stuff. The Capstar is about $4 for a pill. Granted control AFTER that dose is something else, but I do think the DH would've gone for a $4 pill every once in awhile and Frontline is like, $12? Advantage is even cheaper?

I saw her on the Dog Food thread and was sorry she'd dropped off (after what I thought was all about the Dog Food), so that she could learn, but she apparently thought that any attempt at good advice was negative. It seems to have been negatively taken everywhere...Too bad. Good info here with A LOT of folks.
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

September 29, 2008
11:53 PM

Post #5614969

I guess my vet supplied names to Comfortis , because just got a check from them to my vet towards the product . 10.00 . if palmbob says it's safe , that's good enough for me . thanks palmbob , sally
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

September 30, 2008
3:37 AM

Post #5615892

With the economy being what it is there are bound to be more and more people with pets that will be seeking more affordable solutions to their pets problems. Frontline, Advantage and Comfortis are safe and effective but expensive when money becomes so tight that food budgets are stretched to the max and the heating bill is past due.

So, what are the safe options?

The flea comb sounded promising and if combined with frequent vacuuming (and immediate disposal of the collection canister's contents) should keep the problem somewhat under control but not 100%.


I know that my first sheltie never had fleas the whole time we had her. I never treated her with anything so it was either that they didn't like her taste or because she loved to roll around in the Eucalyptus leaves in the back yard and her bed in the house was a big sack of those leaves that was changed often with fresh leaves. From that I surmise that the claims that Eucalyptus oils work may be, at least in part, accurate. But I don't know how safe it would be to use it in a concentrated oil like that.

Garlic pills are affordable but I read that garlic isn't really safe or advisable for dogs. Is this true?

Flea shampoo, Hartz and similar products are cheaper and easily found but they are not safe and are not very effective either.

Are there other options I missed?

palmbob

palmbob
Acton, CA
(Zone 8b)


September 30, 2008
3:55 AM

Post #5615950

flea combing is definitely safe... but not too effective. Garlic pills are totally useless and NOT safe (toxic to both dogs and cats). Flea shampoos are somewhat toxic, poorly effective and only have about a 20 minute lasting time. There really are not too many other options (that work). Before Program and the newer topical products came on the market we didn't have any non-toxic or very effective products for fleas. They were a ton of work and very frustrating. However, one thing that does work not mentioned above (yet) that worked for all my pets was move to a different climate. High elevation parts of the country (we moved to a town near Santa Fe, NM) are nearly sans fleas and the higher you go, the less there are. We never had a single flea nor did I see one working as a veterinarian in over 4 years there in the Rocky Mountains.
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

September 30, 2008
5:24 AM

Post #5616095

So how high into the Rockies do I need to move?
Thanks for the verification about the Garlic being unsafe. I couldn't remember where I read it so couldn't decide if it was true or not.

What do you think of the Eucalyptus oils? safe or?

So far we have been able to keep Pyxle protected with frontline and she hasn't had a flea or tick since we brought her home from the breeders. But as money gets tighter I do worry that the day will come that we just won't be able to afford it.

Thumbnail by Zanymuse
Click the image for an enlarged view.

digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

September 30, 2008
12:45 PM

Post #5616575

Palmbob, because that Comfortis comes in chewable pills , why can't I get the 10 to 20lb size and split them ? my dogs run from 6 to 11 lbs .the 10 to 20 lb runs only a dollar more for six months .bty checked drugstores.com and they don't have it yet ,Fosters and Smith was cheaper than Pet med . didnt check F andS for free shipping , and 1 800 Jeffers doesn't carry any prescription . sally
linuxogre
Lancaster, PA
(Zone 6a)

September 30, 2008
1:20 PM

Post #5616718

Does Comfortis have any effect against ticks? I'd love to switch to an oral agent from Frontline Plus but we do have ticks in this area.

people such as the offender on this topic are the bane of internet forums. They are often termed trolls. This was a classic example of their technique.

I would second Palmbob's comments about the mountainous southwest. I lived in the Albuquerque - Santa Fe area for 25 years and never had a significant problem with fleas in my many critters.

This message was edited Sep 30, 2008 9:26 AM
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

September 30, 2008
11:41 PM

Post #5619186

I just got this one in an email:
[quote]Kills fleas instantly... Dawn Dishwashing Liquid does the trick. Add a few drops to your dog's bath and shampoo the animal thoroughly. Rinse well to avoid skin irritations. Good-bye fleas. [/quote]

Now even I know that dry skin on a dog can be even worse a problem than fleas and that Dawn dish soap cuts through grease better than any other brand I have tried...so a few drops on my poor dogs skin would equal a very irritated skin surface.

Good grief! and that was in one of those irritating mass mailed to everyone in the country type things. I wonder just how many poor pooches will be scratching themselves raw from dry skin after that bath only to have their owners think they need to bathe them again to stop the scratching...
katie59
Woodinville, WA
(Zone 8b)

October 1, 2008
12:09 AM

Post #5619278

They really should suggest that the humans try washing in Dawn first . . .

meezersfive

meezersfive
waukesha, WI
(Zone 5a)

October 1, 2008
1:12 AM

Post #5619558

LOL Troll!!! That's what I was trying to think of when she pulled that on another thread. We are relieved that she is gone as she brought out the worst in us. I can only get jabbed so many times before I get nasty. If you notice higher up on this thread I had given her a "no OTC flea remedies" in another forum and she ignored it. Snort!!! Troll!!!

Palmbob is our very own angel.
Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

October 1, 2008
1:19 AM

Post #5619595

Now don't you all be badmouthing Troll's...http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=5252905 (this guy has feelings too ya know) ;~)

meezersfive

meezersfive
waukesha, WI
(Zone 5a)

October 1, 2008
1:24 AM

Post #5619619

You mean like this guy??

Thumbnail by meezersfive
Click the image for an enlarged view.

Zanymuse
Scotia, CA
(Zone 9b)

October 1, 2008
1:30 AM

Post #5619642

That is his cousin "Picker" I was trying to link to Gar Son of Goyl http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=5252905



This message was edited Sep 30, 2008 6:31 PM

meezersfive

meezersfive
waukesha, WI
(Zone 5a)

October 1, 2008
10:26 AM

Post #5620528

LOL
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

October 1, 2008
11:34 AM

Post #5620623

Actually, I've used Dawn frequently. It isn't something to do indiscriminately, but it works for all kinds of problems, and one of those is washing off OTC Flea meds:). In the Stone Age (pre Advantage/Frontline etc.) It was used for fleas, and is pretty non-toxic. The one thing I do tell people is that it doesn't kill fleas, it stuns them. So, don't do it indoors, or they'll all be back. Zombie Fleas From H*ll...
It isn't optimum, but it might be better than more toxic shampoos in a pinch.
sjweld
Reedsburg, WI
(Zone 4b)

October 2, 2008
1:31 AM

Post #5623421

Just came across this and being as I know some of you said you get these products on line for less, thought it may be of interest: (full article here: http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/health/illegalproducts/index.htm#products )

Illegal Pet Products, including foreign-labeled, unregistered versions of the common pet products Advantage and Frontline, have been illegally imported and sold throughout the U.S. Though registered for use in other countries, some foreign-labeled versions have omitted important warnings, especially those pertaining to children, that are required in the U.S. Versions imported from such countries as England and Australia often give doses in metric units, which can cause Americans to accidentally over-dose or under-dose pets.
Texasgrower
Palestine, TX
(Zone 8b)

October 3, 2008
3:27 AM

Post #5627632

I realize I'm getting on this forum a little late for the original question, but... I worked for an animal hospital for four years. Never, absolutely never put dog flea or tick control on a cat no matter the dosage. I can't tell you how many times we had cats brought in who were treated with dog pest control that way and died. Either comb the animal out or buy Advantage, Revolution or Frontline for felines. Revolution also treats ear mites and is heartworm preventative.

If you have dogs that are fighting fleas and ticks keep this in mind...nothing keeps fleas from jumping on your dog or cat. The products only kill the flea or tick or sterilize them after they have bitten the animal. Also tick control products don't work on the dogs feet because there are no oil glands in the pads. the ticks can live there forever. I check between my dog's pads and remove any that might be there. Of course once the tick moves onto the body, if it does, it will die when it bites into the treated dog.

You also have to treat the enviroment. If you don't treat the yard, bedding or carpet and baseboards of your home, then you are throwing the Advantage and Frontline down the drain. Once you have control of it all, you can pretty well be flea free. I have used Sentinel for probably 12 years. It is heartworm and flea sterilizer in one tablet. I have no flea infestation on the dogs or home. Then if you have fleas chances are the animal has worms. There is a lot of motivation financially and health wise to keep fleas and ticks under control. Just buy the appropriate product for the species. One last thing...when applying the Advantage or Frontline, be sure to part the fur and put the liquid directly on the skin, otherwise it won't work.

I know we all love our babies and want what is best. Please never put canine flea and tick control on a cat. If you have , and your cat hasn't died, you are most fortunate.

Thanks for letting share.

wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

October 25, 2008
1:28 PM

Post #5714515

Bump
catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

October 25, 2008
1:51 PM

Post #5714586

wrightie, was there anything specific?
wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

October 25, 2008
2:09 PM

Post #5714634

Just that a new flea thread was started and I thought it might be a good idea to get some more visibility to this thread -- it's full of GREAT information! =)
wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

May 5, 2009
11:27 PM

Post #6509529

bump ~ it's that time of the year again ...
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

May 6, 2009
12:22 AM

Post #6509816

Thanks , digger
Wvdaisy
Buffalo, WV
(Zone 7a)

May 9, 2009
6:42 PM

Post #6526753

Sigh, definately that time of year.

Lana
wrightie
Metro DC, MD
(Zone 7a)

May 9, 2009
8:14 PM

Post #6527000

I've seen more ticks than usual here.
lincolnitess
Lincoln, NE
(Zone 5b)

May 11, 2009
6:48 AM

Post #6532526

I think someone above mentioned buying the large size doses of Frontline from eBay that come with a small vial to squeeze the medication into and a syringe to measure it out with. I got 8 doses for $33 and later found a vet (also on eBay) that sells it for $17.97 for the 8 cat dose 4.2 ml tube. With 4 cats and a dog, this saves me a lot over the year. Here is the information I recieved about the difference in the dog and cat formulas:

Cats ~ fipronil 9.8%, (S)-methoprene 11.8%

Dogs~ fipronil 9.8%, (S)-methporene 8.8%

I use the dog formula on both my dog and the 4 cats. Guess it's up to you if you feel comfortable using it by this method and using the same formula on both your dogs and cats. Personally, I feel it's much safer than using an over the counter product and puts the Frontline in a price range that more people with multiple animals can afford. I also use a flea comb regularly on all my animals just as an extra precaution, but find that as long as I remember to use the Frontline regularly, I never find any.

Susan




This message was edited May 11, 2009 1:50 AM
Wvdaisy
Buffalo, WV
(Zone 7a)

May 11, 2009
7:22 AM

Post #6532536

I buy the largest size of Frontline Plus the use a small glass bottle and syringe to dose it for all 9 of our cats and dogs, plus, my Mom's cat and dog. Saves a lot of money that way.
lincolnitess
Lincoln, NE
(Zone 5b)

May 11, 2009
8:58 AM

Post #6532598

That's what they sell on eBay as a kit. The largest Frontline Plus along with a brown vial and insulin type syringe that is measured in ml. If the eBay seller are making money selling the 4.2 ml size for $17.97, I'd say the Vets are making a lot selling it at over $10 for a .5ml cat size dose.
Wvdaisy
Buffalo, WV
(Zone 7a)

May 14, 2009
5:49 PM

Post #6548176

I just bought 6 of the 4.2 size for $60. That should last most of the summer. Longer if two of my dogs didn't weight over 100lbs :) Purchased at Petshed.com It's produced in Australia but the same stuff just a lot less money. If it was coming from some third world country or something I certainly wouldn't purchase it.

Lana
www.daisypatchrabbits.homestead.com
lizh
N.C. Mts., NC
(Zone 6b)

May 14, 2009
9:02 PM

Post #6548880

WE have ordered Frontline Plus from petshed.com for several years.
Happy with it and the price.
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

July 6, 2009
9:17 PM

Post #6785921

bump. digger
Hemental
Waynesboro, MS
(Zone 8a)

July 15, 2009
4:09 PM

Post #6822626

Any advise for a spray for the yard
My brother swears that by speading lime will kill them and have also head some pet owners had luck with spreading sulfur on their paths and walkway
This year has been a bumper year for fleas
They like people as well as other mammals
I have had numerous bites while walking in the garden.
I had a outbreak once in the carpets and had good luck using Borax

catmad
Pelzer, SC
(Zone 7b)

July 16, 2009
1:18 PM

Post #6826022

Nematodes. You can buy then from Gardens Alive, and you mix them up and spray them. When depends on where you are, and your weather. The website explains well.

Lime will do nothing for the fleas, but may help (or hurt) your soil compositon. Sulfer about then same, although it's a fungicide and its said to repel snakes:). Imidcloprid will kill fleas, and is available as a garden insecticide, but I don;t know much more...

HTH
gardenwife
Newark, OH
(Zone 5b)

July 16, 2009
3:30 PM

Post #6826461

We buy Frontline Plus from a retired vet in Ohio who sells on eBay under the name Bobvet. We've been doing so for six years now, maybe seven? Actually, we now buy directly from him, which saves us more. We also buy Tri-Heart Plus heartworm preventative. We get the largest doses of each and divvy it up between our dogs based on their weights.
gardenwife
Newark, OH
(Zone 5b)

July 16, 2009
3:49 PM

Post #6826550

Keep in mind that many insecticides you use on your lawn and plants will kill not only the bad insects, but the beneficial ones like bees. Weigh the risks.

jenhillphoto

jenhillphoto
Danbury, CT
(Zone 6a)

July 20, 2009
11:55 PM

Post #6843786

I started to read this thread and well... I just don't have the time to read through it all. Just wanted to put my 2 cents in... Please people do not use any Hartz product. I stupidly used it on my cat and she died! Yes, died. She was only 2 years old and otherwise healthy. The vets were flabbergasted. Did an autopsy and they concluded that it was the Hartz. I contacted the company to inform them, and all they cared about was getting sued, my call was returned by an attorney. All I use now is Frontline. The cheapest I've found is on amazon.com.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=frontline+plus+for+cats&x=0&y=0

Seriously, it cost me $2k in vet bills over ONE weekend and she died suddenly. So I pay for the frontline for my cats now and don't fret about it AT ALL. It's very painful for me to rehash this, so please let me just leave it at that. Please stay away from Hartz.
gardenwife
Newark, OH
(Zone 5b)

July 22, 2009
1:40 PM

Post #6850357

So sorry to hear about your cat, Jen. :( People really do need to sue Hartz. Unfortunately, their pockets are a lot deeper than most individuals' are.

meezersfive

meezersfive
waukesha, WI
(Zone 5a)

July 24, 2009
11:43 PM

Post #6861238

I don't even buy Hartz TOYS for my babies, I want them to go out of business. I've stopped short of putting sticky notes on their displays in the stores, but I have been sorely tempted.
bonehead
Cedarhome, WA
(Zone 8b)

July 20, 2012
10:25 AM

Post #9212464

Interesting (and very long) thread. My dog only occasionally is bothered by fleas - last time was Aug 2010 - and is now itching like crazy. I called the vet to get some Revolution, which was what we used last flare-up but am told I need to schedule an exam. Unfortunately, we're leaving for the weekend and I need some immediate relief, so will try one of the OTC products highly recommended by many (NOT Hartz). This thread has provided lots of good information (and a fair amount of cheap entertainment).
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

July 20, 2012
10:31 AM

Post #9212470

That new one that is compared to Frontline + sells at Wal Mart . I'm using that now .Sure am glad Frontline run out of patent so I can get the same formula MUCH cheaper
texaslady62
DISH, TX
(Zone 8b)

July 25, 2012
6:16 AM

Post #9217834

You know, I have been following this post for a week or two now, and I have found that with the exception of a few, you are the most JUDGEMENTAL, RUDE, POMPOUS, AND ARROGANT people I have ever read post on. Do you think that you actually are all knowing enough to judge other's and their situation? Or are you so insecure on yourself that you have to constantly put people down?
I might start my own Pets thread, one without all the bashing and critisism, and the ones of you who can not act so bussshy, can just join that one.

As for me, I will no longer follow this thread. And I will definatly stay away from the handles of such.
GOOD RIDDANCE
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

July 25, 2012
7:28 AM

Post #9217905

Gosh , I thought we were sharing different experiences , good and bad .
Intrigue 3 started the thread and couldn't afford Frontline plus , so probably glad to know that another product is available exactly like it , OTC , and much cheaper .

gardenglory
Gainesville, FL
(Zone 9a)

July 25, 2012
8:57 AM

Post #9218027

Im surprised Dave let some of those post stay. Ive seen him take off less..back in the day. It was 2008 after all...long ago. I did learn while reading tho!!
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

July 25, 2012
10:47 AM

Post #9218160

Garden, I just read back and must have missed something . Only thing I could see was naming the company that offends , but don't they do that when garden companies are rated ? Good or bad ?
Sept 4, 2008 , in this thread , PalmBob said Hartz and Sargent's were "Risky" and "USELESS" and he's a vet and a D G Uber , so it must not be that .
Enlighten me in a dmail , I certainly don't want to insult anyone and will apologize if I did
gardenglory
Gainesville, FL
(Zone 9a)

July 25, 2012
10:59 AM

Post #9218169

o gosh...it wasnt you at all. Life is so short...and not so easy, it turns out. Going back 4 years...yuk...I try to learn from the past, forward ho, tho.

Ill go back and D mail you...just what I thought when I read it. I think its a good thread, bar some personal stuff that was just a bit 'uncomfortable'.
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

July 25, 2012
5:27 PM

Post #9218699

Good , curious to know . Glad it wasn't me but her remark came after my post , so wondered .
Doug9345
Durhamville, NY
(Zone 5b)

July 25, 2012
9:20 PM

Post #9218943

[quote="digger9083"]That new one that is compared to Frontline + sells at Wal Mart . I'm using that now .Sure am glad Frontline run out of patent so I can get the same formula MUCH cheaper[/quote]

Are you sure about the plus part of that. I don't see it in my Walmart and as far as I know. The patent on fipronil ran out , but not the patent on the combination of fipronil and S-methoprene which is what the plus is. I believe the product in Walmart is equivalent to Frontline and not front line plus. I have found it to not be as affective as the Plus. I have used Comfortitis and like it.

digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

July 26, 2012
6:33 AM

Post #9219170

Hi , Comfortis is the best , as far as I 'm concerned . You may be right about the plus , but I haven't been able to tell any difference in effectiveness yet . I have a chemist friend that buys the biggest dose for big dogs and she weighs it out , after crushing , then gives it to her dogs . She also gives it to the shelter dogs the same way . Says she can treat so cheap that way . I'm going to get with her to work out the dosage for my dogs too . She has scales to weigh in grams and grains . Same as scales for precious metals .
ecrane3
Dublin, CA
(Zone 9a)

July 26, 2012
7:18 AM

Post #9219216

The plus has stuff that also kills flea eggs/larvae, but as long as you apply the non-plus stuff regularly you might not see much difference. I've seen a lot of people say they like Comfortis--I can't use it though because it doesn't take care of ticks.
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

July 26, 2012
11:26 AM

Post #9219471

Thank goodness , We don't see more than 4-5 ticks a year . It has been a bad year for fleas and I have to spray the yard . Been staying ahead of them .
gardenwife
Newark, OH
(Zone 5b)

August 26, 2012
8:59 AM

Post #9254254

Frontline quit working for us a couple years back. We found ourselves infested with fleas...Awful! Our vet said several clients reported the same thing. Evidently the fleas built up a resistance. We use Advantage now.

Gardenglory, Dave is no longer with/associated with DG.
marie_kap
Williamstown, NJ
(Zone 6b)

September 10, 2013
5:21 AM

Post #9655868

Well after reading all or almost all of this. Who now uses the pills verse the spot treatment?
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

September 10, 2013
6:12 AM

Post #9655898

Everyone I talk to that uses the pills say thet thier dogs don't have fleas , so I'm going to get it for mine when I take them in for rabies shots the 14 th.
marie_kap
Williamstown, NJ
(Zone 6b)

September 10, 2013
7:11 AM

Post #9655950

Can you get them from other places also?
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

September 10, 2013
2:00 PM

Post #9656326

Prescription only .
Doug9345
Durhamville, NY
(Zone 5b)

September 10, 2013
5:17 PM

Post #9656518

I use and like Comfortis. I think it works better than Frontline on fleas.
marie_kap
Williamstown, NJ
(Zone 6b)

September 11, 2013
5:52 AM

Post #9656869

Thanks for the information. I will change what I have been using.

rteets

rteets
Stroudsburg, PA
(Zone 6a)

April 12, 2014
1:41 PM

Post #9810795

This thread is so long I didn't read it all but my first question is do your cats have fleas? Because it is not a given that if you don't use ANYTHING they will have fleas. I have never used any flea control chemicals on my dogs and they have never had fleas. Actually I found two fleas on one dog and I used a flea comb on him for several days and that was it. New Hampshire is not exactly a Mecca for fleas. Maybe you don't need any of this stuff.
digger9083
Dahlonega, GA

April 12, 2014
5:31 PM

Post #9810926

We have a lot of squirrels both here and in Texas . Good breeding ground for them .Also I'm in the woods in Ga . I had never had luck with Frontline plus , but thought I had no other choice . I went to Advantage or Advantix , , will have to check and see which one , I get them confused . No flea problem since then .

You cannot post until you register, login and subscribe.


Other Pets Threads you might be interested in:

SubjectThread StarterRepliesLast Post
Does Anyone Show Dogs?? momcat 154 Jul 29, 2009 9:01 PM
How many dogs does it take to change a light bulb? gardenwife 20 Oct 2, 2009 7:10 PM
mourning DawnG 26 Jul 16, 2010 10:38 AM
Bertha got a hair cut!! MOLLYBEE 10 Aug 8, 2011 11:49 AM
Fritzie meets (& almost eats) Santa Claus Buttoneer 22 Sep 3, 2009 11:46 PM


We recommend Firefox
Overwhelmed? There's a lot to see here. Try starting at our homepage.

[ Home | About | Advertise | Media Kit | Mission | Featured Companies | Submit an Article | Terms of Use | Tour | Rules | Privacy Policy | Contact Us ]

Back to the top

Copyright © 2000-2014 Dave's Garden, an Internet Brands company. All Rights Reserved.
 

Hope for America