Photo by Melody

Soil and Composting: Need heavy "brown" ideas for lasagna bed

Communities > Forums > Soil and Composting
bookmark
Forum: Soil and CompostingReplies: 54, Views: 633
Add to Bookmarks
-
AuthorContent
jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

September 10, 2008
7:59 PM

Post #5534970

I recently started a lasagna bed in a corner of my yard. Started by covering the grass with wet newspaper. Layered in fresh grass clippings, some brown leaves, composted manure, coffee grounds, and topped it off with Sphagnum Peat Moss. I haven't touched it for a couple weeks, but want to add more materials to it as each "layer" wasn't very thick, so I feel like it needs more.

I have no problem coming up with "greens" as we have fresh grass clippings weekly, but I don't know what to put on top of the grass to help weight it down (so it doesn't dry and blow away) and to add a "brown" to the mix. I know I can tear up newspaper, wet it down, and add to the garden for a brown, but it seems this could just blow away too? Is there any type of compost, etc that I can purchase and add on top of the grass that will supply the needed carbon and also keep everything from blowing away? Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thumbnail by jenepat
Click the image for an enlarged view.

sallyg

sallyg
Anne Arundel,, MD
(Zone 7b)

September 10, 2008
11:49 PM

Post #5535843

I think a cheap shredded mulch is the cheapest thing. When I use it for mulch it goes away pretty quickly. But it seems to me that when I use grass clippings they sort of mat togethe r and don't really blow.
jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

September 11, 2008
6:31 PM

Post #5539221

Thanks Sally. I'm really more concerned with adding something that could bring the necessary Carbon to the mix. I'm not sure cheap shredded mulch would do this, would it? I don't have access to any leaves yet, which seems like it would be the easiest to add - but it's too early in the season here for that.

Any other ideas?
PuddlePirate
North Ridgeville, OH
(Zone 5b)

September 11, 2008
7:27 PM

Post #5539376

Cardboard is a great source of concentrated carbon. Check the dumpsters behind your local bookstore or supermarket for empty boxes. Soak them with water to soften them and make them heavy enough to resist being blown away by the wind, then tear them into sheets and lay them down on your lasagna bed.
jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

September 11, 2008
8:12 PM

Post #5539557

Ok - will do. Thanks! Also, is peat moss a source of carbon or nitrogen - or neither?

sallyg

sallyg
Anne Arundel,, MD
(Zone 7b)

September 11, 2008
9:34 PM

Post #5539873

Hey Pirate- I have the utmost respect for you, but don't you think those pieces of cardbaord are going to dry out and get loose eventually? I haven't used it myself.. Well, I have used a big sheet here and there more as a lid, than trying to get it to decompose. Weighted down.
Shredded wood is a great source of carbon. Wood is very carbon, that's why we build things with it and they last a long time. ^_^
Peat moss is brown for good reason==carbon. Also very fluffy!
jeffinsgf
Brighton, MO
(Zone 6a)

September 11, 2008
10:52 PM

Post #5540086

Bagged cotton burr compost would add C, weigh down the grass, and doesn't blow much at all. It will also kick start the composting process with its microorganisms.
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

September 12, 2008
10:40 AM

Post #5541919

A bale of straw is cheap and works well, goes a long way. (Make sure it's straw, not hay which is a "green". Shredded mulch is good too- very high C:N ratio to help raise carbon, and very little is needed. Both work well for me.

Karen
PuddlePirate
North Ridgeville, OH
(Zone 5b)

September 12, 2008
2:20 PM

Post #5542475

Sally, you're right that the cardboard would blow away if it's the top layer. When I use it, I cover it with fresh grass clippings to keep it in place.

The wind I dislike is the kind that sweeps in when I'm half done laying the cardboard. As long as the cardboard is wet when I lay it down, it won't blow away before I cover it with grass clippings.
jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

September 12, 2008
3:53 PM

Post #5542858

thanks for all the ideas!
mqiq77
Danielsville, GA
(Zone 7b)

September 12, 2008
4:13 PM

Post #5542916

I get the power company to dump shreaded limbs on my place, and then get it on my lasagna bed, right after I cover the bed with cardboard.The worms go wild over it.
Mike
PuddlePirate
North Ridgeville, OH
(Zone 5b)

September 12, 2008
4:47 PM

Post #5543002

If you can get several gallons of spent coffee grounds from a coffee shop, then you've got the perfect material to weigh down cardboard and keep it from blowing away. Even better, worms love coffee grounds and cardboard. Plus, the grounds smell great!
jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

September 12, 2008
5:58 PM

Post #5543243

I was under the impression that coffee grounds are a source of nitrogen - is this true? I do have some and have added them a little, but if they supply carbon, I'll definitely be adding them more abundantly.
PuddlePirate
North Ridgeville, OH
(Zone 5b)

September 12, 2008
6:17 PM

Post #5543306

Coffee grounds are definitely a source of nitrogen, but I like them more for other reasons: they attract worms, look and smell good, and when wet they do a great job of holding loose stuff in place.
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

September 13, 2008
1:16 PM

Post #5546217

jenepat: How deep is your lasagna now? It's hard to guess what your balance might be, but it does sound like you might be kind of nitrogen heavy. I wouldn't add coffee unless a fair amount of carbon is added, too. Is it slimy or stinky? Grass clippings can get really nasty without adequate carbon. As long as you get plenty of "browns" you can stack materials really deep, like several feet. I never have that much, but I think the deeper it is the better the finished product. I'd get some straw or wood mulch to add and then use more of those grass clippings and coffee grounds.

Karen
jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

September 15, 2008
9:12 PM

Post #5555744

it's not that deep at all. the bed is very large, so any cut grass or other materials are spread pretty thin so that all areas get some. i'd say it's 2-3 inches thick at the most - the bottom layer is the grass we covered up with the wet newspaper. it doesn't seem stinky at all. do you know if i can get straw or wood mulch at Home Depot and/or Lowes? I've obviously seen wood mulch there before, but has their stuff been treated with something that will keep it from breaking down during composting? Is there something in particular I should be looking for on the package?
Fla_Chick
Citra, FL

September 18, 2008
1:29 AM

Post #5565804

Sawdust works well, or wood shavings.
vhanna
Hugo (Vicki), OK
(Zone 7b)

September 18, 2008
2:17 PM

Post #5567676

Jenepat,

I've created my first "lasgna garden" but I'm going to let it winter before I plant anything. You can even use kitchen scraps, same as compost pile. We put wood ashes on the top of ours You could also put builders sand, ages manure,compost, also alternate layers with 2inches of peat moss. I wet mine all down and covered it with a plastic tarp. When first created the bed it was about 20 inches tall, it will eventually breakdown and be about 6-10 inches. There really is no wrong way to create one. I could of planted in mine right away but I'm new to vegetable gardening, and wanted to wait until early spring to put plants in.
Happy gardening!
Vicki
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

September 21, 2008
12:06 PM

Post #5579623

I'm not sure whether Home Depot or Lowes sells straw, but I've not seen it at my local stores. I usually buy it at a garden center, I usually pay about $7 a bale. One bale goes far. Many, many places sell straw bales this time of year for fall decorating.

Jenepat, do you have many deciduous trees in your area? Leaves are by far my favorite carbon source for compost or lasagna. They will be plentiful here in a few weeks.

Three inches of materials on top of a bed is really more like a mulch than a lasagna bed. It will rot down to literally nothing. It should improve your soil, but not like a true lasagna. Try to get lots more material, like a foot deep. Even that will rot down to a couple of inches. You can continue to add those grass clippings but do come up with some carbon. Then the UCGs will be good too.

Also don't forget all those summer plants that you or your neighbors will be yanking, or perennials you will be cutting back. Those can be chopped small and added to your bed. Anything removed from a plant while it's alive and green is a "green" or N, anything dead or brown when removed from a plant is a "brown" or carbon source.

Karen

pbyrley

pbyrley
Port St Lucie (+ Wk , FL
(Zone 9b)

September 21, 2008
2:24 PM

Post #5580107

I bought 6 bales of wheat straw from Lowes for $4 and change a bale, last month. HD also sells it. I have a small trailer (5'x7') so it was easy for me. It was clean and wouldn't be a problem to transport a couple of bales in an SUV. I used the straw as a compost bin enclosure to get me started, then next year it will be "part of the solution" as I build whatever I decide for a permanent enclosure. I'm waiting for leaf fall so I can drive around and pick up bagged leaves at the street. I plan to use my lawnmower on the leaves to chop them up so I will get more brown per inch of depth.
Paul
jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

September 21, 2008
10:59 PM

Post #5582043

Karen & Paul - great info! Yes, I'll be using leaves too from our deciduous trees, but those won't be falling for at least another 6 weeks or so down here (I think). Will probably try to get some straw from HD/Lowes or another garden center in the area. All great info though - thanks!
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

September 21, 2008
11:49 PM

Post #5582213

I transport a bale of straw in the trunk of my Honda Civic. It's a tight fit, and makes a mess of the trunk, but it fits.

Karen
Fla_Chick
Citra, FL

September 22, 2008
1:01 AM

Post #5582545

I really hate to see you people actually have to pay for straw or hay. Dont you have any local horse farms where you can go and get stall cleanings for free? I dont ever spend money on mulch/compost. All free, from horse farms, from feed stores that have bad bales. They'll just give them to you. Leaves, lawn clippings. No need to pay for that kind of stuff.
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

September 22, 2008
1:39 AM

Post #5582764

FlaChick: I'd like to see you find a horse farm in my suburban neighborhood. This is a suburb of Cincinnati, not a rural area.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Cincinnati-skyline-from-kentucky-shore-night.jpg&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Cincinnati-skyline-from-kentucky-shore-night.jpg&h=1920&w=2560&sz=1298&hl=en&start=1&sig2=7zFYHWbpwLJ4Q_HAGmDtlw&um=1&usg=__Y_XpGpJPn5ISnjndvA9J9-7GCWI=&tbnid=GTTlWnOQI3ytgM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=150&ei=APfWSNXuCJ3MggLJlOyHCQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcincinnati%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rls%3DGGLG,GGLG:2006-49,GGLG:en%26sa%3DN

The nearest feed store is about 30 miles away, and gas is $4 a gallon.

Or, I can pay $7 for a bale of straw at a garden center a few blocks from my house.

Karen
Fla_Chick
Citra, FL

September 22, 2008
1:45 AM

Post #5582782

Exactly where in Cincinnati are you...well not exactly, but roughly.
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

September 22, 2008
10:51 AM

Post #5583798

About 4 miles west of downtown
Fla_Chick
Citra, FL

September 22, 2008
6:26 PM

Post #5585473

River Downs Race Track is 7 miles from downtown Cincinnati, and I know there are feed stores right around there. Not to mention that you can probably get used straw for absolutely free, if you are so inclined.
doccat5
Fredericksburg, VA
(Zone 7b)

September 22, 2008
6:36 PM

Post #5585514

If you buy your straw from the big box stores, be sure and ask for "builder's straw". It has fewer weed seeds.
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

September 22, 2008
7:25 PM

Post #5585678

That is on the other side of downtown- east- 15.78 mi. or 26 min each way according to mapquest. I rarely go out to that area, no reason to, and again, One hour driving time alone and gas money. As opposed to next to 0 gas cost, 0 car emisions, and no time to drive a few blocks and pay $7.

On the rare occasions I go to a feed store, it's one 30 miles from here, only a short distance from a place where I work a couple of days a month. The place I usually work is much closer.

Stall cleanings --- So --- how would I get stall cleanings home? Just shovel this horse poop into the back seat of my Honda? Or my husband's Cadillac?

We city kids get along just fine. Sometimes one can get free bales of straw being discarded from fall decorating, but it can take some time to search for it. Soon, leaves will be plentiful here. My neighbors deliver them to me.

Really
Fla_Chick
Citra, FL

September 22, 2008
7:38 PM

Post #5585717

I certainly didnt mean to start an argument, I was just trying to be helpful. I know a lot of "city kids" who are very ingenious about finding items for their lasagna beds, and yes they bring stall cleanings home, they fill plastic bags or whatever else they need, or want. Its simply a matter of doing what you want.
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

September 22, 2008
8:03 PM

Post #5585810

No argument, just practicality. In an age of air pollution and $4/gallon gas, these things come into play. I'm not a horse racing fan, nor a gambler, and in 30 years in Cinti I think I've only been to River Downs once, maybe. Or maybe not. I have been to one or 2 in Ky. The Cinti flower and garden show has been in that area for the past few years, but I didn't even make it to that this year. I just have no reason to go there.

And I'm simply not inclined to transport horse poop in plastic bags in my car. If I had some old truck maybe, but that's not anywhere in the plan. I like my little compact car with it's good gas mileage. It meets my needs.

Karen
LenaBeanNZ
Brisbane
Australia
(Zone 10b)

September 24, 2008
11:14 PM

Post #5595059

I use straw in my beds for mulching and as a C source, I find it breaks down alot quicker and more evenly than paper and cardboard.

If you havent already, I reccommend you check out the Strawbale Gardening Forum here at DG. I stumbled upon it just over a year ago, and it completely changed the way I look at strawbales, or gardening for that matter!
I plant my tomatoes directly into the straw bale in year one, then the following year I can use the decomposed bale as the first layer in a lasagna. Or spread it on other beds and start again with a fresh lot of bales.

Lena
jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

September 26, 2008
4:02 PM

Post #5602109

Lena - thanks for the tip about the Strawbale Gardening forum. I hadn't seen that one before. Very interesting!!!
LenaBeanNZ
Brisbane
Australia
(Zone 10b)

September 26, 2008
11:39 PM

Post #5603679

Its very easy to do and so handy. Instant raised bed wherever you want it! Come join us in the Strawbale Gargening forum :-)

Lena

postmandug

postmandug
Bardstown, KY
(Zone 6a)

September 29, 2008
6:38 PM

Post #5613869

I just started strawbale gardening this year and my bales have decomposed so much that I won't be able to use them for planting next year so they are either going into the compost pile or a lasagna bed. Best tomatoes I've ever grown!!!

Doug
jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

October 1, 2008
2:07 PM

Post #5621126

Wanted to update you all that I got a couple bales of wheat straw to add for my carbon. Lowes, Home Depot, and other garden centers didn't carry it at all, but I was able to buy some at a local feed store ($7-8 per bale). I loved how easily the straw separated into little sheets that I was able to put out on the bed. It ended up being 2-4" thick. So now it's time to add more "greens"! After that I may try some cotton burr compost or mushroom compost. Then I'm sure I'll have plenty of leaves on my hands to finish things off.

Thanks again for all the ideas!
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

October 1, 2008
5:34 PM

Post #5621905

Good for you, sounds like you are well on your way to a nice batch of lasagna. And when you end up with that nice, thick, bed, chock full of organic matter, $14 will seem like a small investment in retrospect. Good luck and please let us know how it turns out for you. I expect you will be pleased with the result.

Karen
gen2026
Camden, AR

October 6, 2008
6:34 PM

Post #5639879

Well. I live in a rural area, but have NO TREES in my yard so I am struggling at coming up with "carbons" for a lasanaga bed. I want to make a new LARGE bed and I am flinching at what it will cost for compost, bags of manure, etc to establish it. My soil is very sandy and so I really need to improve it before planting. I have contacted a guy that has horse stables - and I can shovel out as much as I want - providing I can come up with a way to haul it...but he did warn me that a lot of people did not like using it because of all the grass and weed seeds... Anyone have any experience with that? I do save all my cardboard and newspaper, but the bed I want to fix is large enough that I will never have enough of that to be 12" thick... I would appreciate any and all suggestions...

We do have some lumber mills in the area ...would raw sawdust work?? just a thought. Trying to do this as inexpensively as possible...


Genna
LenaBeanNZ
Brisbane
Australia
(Zone 10b)

October 6, 2008
11:46 PM

Post #5640905

Strawbales. You can plant directly into them while you wait for your lasagna to compost, then ad them as a semi decomposed layer of Carbon. Check out the Strawbale Gardening Forum :-)
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

October 7, 2008
12:54 AM

Post #5641206

I have no experience with sawdust but it sounds to me like a good top layer. Hopefully someone will chime in who has tried it in lasagna. I've never tried strawbale gardening either, but I have read about it and it sounds intriguing, another thing I might have to experiment with someday.

But if you decide on a traditional lasagna garden, straw does make a great " brown". As I mentioned above, it's cheap (I pay $7) and a bale goes a long way. Remember straw is a brown or carbon source; hay is a green or nitrogen source. And you can use any organic matter in a lasagna bed. Don't discount what can be gathered in yard cleanup. (your yard and neighbor's too).

Karen
gen2026
Camden, AR

October 7, 2008
1:08 AM

Post #5641274

Do you think the horse manure would cause too many weeds and grass?? If not, I can get plenty of it and between that and straw I would be good to go...???

Genna
LenaBeanNZ
Brisbane
Australia
(Zone 10b)

October 7, 2008
4:39 AM

Post #5642083

I use horse manure, and have never had any excesive problems with weeds, no more than usual! The last load of manure I got was from a stable, it was mixed with sawdust from the boxes (organic untreated timber they assured me) it has done wonders for improving the texture of my previously clay soil. No weeds at all from that lot. The farmer was kind enough to load up my trailer with his digger, from the older side of the pile.
You could always try it, and if you do get a vigorous surge of weeds after applying the manure, you could just suffocate them out with a big sheet of plastic. Before planting of course.

Lena
Fla_Chick
Citra, FL

October 7, 2008
11:15 AM

Post #5642475

I also use horse manure and sawdust from my stalls, and my neighbors can't believe that I have worms in Florida. I just mulch heavily with it, and it helps the soil here tremendously. Or if I need to re-claim part of the yard for a flower bed, I just dump a big load on it and let it sit until the grass underneath dies, then I spread it and plant in it.
gen2026
Camden, AR

October 7, 2008
1:53 PM

Post #5642866

Thanks for the info. That should help for sure!

Genna
jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

October 12, 2008
6:01 PM

Post #5662513

Ok - I have a problem. As I mentioned before, I added 2 bales of wheat straw I purchased from a local feed store about a week & a half ago. But now I have a ton of new grass growing in my bed. It looks like wheat grass...I guess from seed that was in the straw?? I wasn't expecting this. Has anyone had this problem before? What is the recommended way to get rid of this grass & keep more from growing? It pulls up fairly easily, but that would be time consuming & I feel like more would just grow. I thought of adding a weed & grass killer product to the bed since I won't be planting anything in the bed until spring (and no edibles are planned for this bed), but I wasn't sure if that's the best idea.

Please...any suggestions you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

Thumbnail by jenepat
Click the image for an enlarged view.

mqiq77
Danielsville, GA
(Zone 7b)

October 12, 2008
6:14 PM

Post #5662535

Is it possible to turn the grass, and straw, without bothering the news papers?The turned under grass would give you a real nitrogen source, and help break down the bed, and would be ready in spring.Once the earth worms start to work on the paper, it won't be long before you can turn it all. Mike
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

October 12, 2008
6:20 PM

Post #5662544

Cover it with cardboard, wet it, and cover with something other than the weedy straw to weigh it down. Are your leaves falling yet, or is it still too early? Another option is to add more thick layers to smother the grass.

You don't want anything too heavy on top (like heavy bricks) as it would cause the bottom to go anerobic. Just enough weight to keep it there. Maybe empty milk jugs or 2 liter bottles partially filled with water. You could remove the top layer of cardboard later if desired.

Karen
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

October 12, 2008
7:15 PM

Post #5662660

Mike: I think turning over that straw again, exposing new straw to surface light, would result in new "grass" seed growth from the straw. But then, just my opinion.

I'm a no-till gardener. Once, and only once, I turned over the soil in my tomato beds, thinking it would loosen the clay soil and improve growing conditions. WRONG! It just brought old buried weed seeds to the surface where they thrived for 2 years despite my constant attention. Ever since then, I do strictly no till, mulch with compost and organic materials, and only dig if I have to. I don't get many weeds, either.

Karen

jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

October 12, 2008
9:00 PM

Post #5662986

Thanks for the ideas. I'll plan to do the wet cardboard layer and then top it with manure (need to add a nitrogen source anyways). Hopefully that will keep the grass from growing further and the manure will help weigh down the cardboard. Think this will work?

Jennifer
mqiq77
Danielsville, GA
(Zone 7b)

October 12, 2008
9:08 PM

Post #5663004

Karen, I am not set on one idea, and what works for you is fine.I would leave the lasagna bed as is until just before planting time, and till the whole thing up in early Feb., and again when it is planting time.I would use the new wheat for green manure, and hopefully all the seeds had sprouted.
My first lasagna bed was on the hardest packed ground you could imagine, and when the worms had eaten the 6-9 inch thick newspaper layer, under the 6" layer of mulch, it was like tilling loose sand, and now it is a no till bed.Mike
kqcrna
Cincinnati, OH
(Zone 6a)

October 12, 2008
10:34 PM

Post #5663285

Wow, 6 to 9 inch paper, I've never tried it nearly that thick. But cardboard has become my preference after several beds. We all do what works for us. But I agree, lasagna beds are fantastic.

We have floated several ideas for you jenepat. Or, maybe you'll come up with a better one. Let us know how things work out for you. Good luck.

Karen

LenaBeanNZ
Brisbane
Australia
(Zone 10b)

October 13, 2008
1:27 AM

Post #5664108

Jenepat, from my experience the wheat straw just gives one initial flush of grass after spreading it. Its easy enough to pull out, and if you get the roots it doesnt come back. I just lay it on top where it wilts and turns to straw. The cardbord idea would work too of course. Sounds like you will have a wonderful lasagna by spring.

Lena
jenepat
North Richland Hills, TX
(Zone 8a)

October 13, 2008
2:43 PM

Post #5665825

Thanks Lena. Glad to know if I get lazy & don't do the cardboard that it could still be OK. Thanks for the suggestion!
Texasescimo
Argyle, TX
(Zone 7b)

November 14, 2008
1:48 AM

Post #5788329

Should be plenty of leaves at neighborhood curbs now. If you still need some, you could talk to a neighborhood lawn maintenance person about dumping some at your house. Take care, Mike

Sundownr

Sundownr
(Bev) Wytheville, VA
(Zone 6a)

November 15, 2008
6:14 AM

Post #5792802

The city folks can use shredded paper from offices as a carbon source for composting. Once it has been wet down, it mats together and stays in place very well. The worms love it too!

You cannot post until you register, login and subscribe.


Other Soil and Composting Threads you might be interested in:

SubjectThread StarterRepliesLast Post
Clay poppysue 16 Oct 21, 2013 3:56 PM
Free compost, myth or truth JaiMarye 14 Oct 27, 2010 6:58 AM
Who Bakes Dirt 76summerwind 29 Apr 4, 2008 6:22 PM
sterilizing options tiG 22 Mar 29, 2008 7:47 PM
Soil & Fertilizer: Compost Tea SoCal 119 Mar 5, 2008 11:18 PM


We recommend Firefox
Overwhelmed? There's a lot to see here. Try starting at our homepage.

[ Home | About | Advertise | Media Kit | Mission | Featured Companies | Submit an Article | Terms of Use | Tour | Rules | Privacy Policy | Contact Us ]

Back to the top

Copyright © 2000-2014 Dave's Garden, an Internet Brands company. All Rights Reserved.
 

Hope for America