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Cannas: Bengal Tiger Seeds and others!

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bwilliams
Louisville, KY

January 4, 2009
6:49 PM

Post #5965227

I was able last season to produce seeds on the following cannas.

4 seeds on Bengal Tiger
4 seeds on wyoming
30 seeds on pink sunburst

I have started to germinate the seeds. So far one of the 4 seeds from Bengal tiger has started to grow. In most cases in the past, I have produced seeds but they have no embrio. The Wyoming seeds were sent to a lab and I have not heard yet if they have germinated. The pink sunburst set seeds much easier but few have shown photos of the seedlings. So far I am getting both green and dark leaf plants from these seedlings.

Much like I had figured the Bengal tiger seedling is not showing the stripped leaves. This is because the Bengal tiger is a chimera which usually only effect that one plant. I am hoping that the seedling will be more fertile so I can continue breeding with it.

Thumbnail by bwilliams
Click the image for an enlarged view.

Gardenia731
(Arlene) Lakeland, FL
(Zone 9a)

January 10, 2009
4:37 PM

Post #5989006

Those are so cute. At what size to you begin to transplant to individual containers?
taj12
Parkersburg, WV

January 11, 2009
2:24 PM

Post #5992046

I have never got a seed from my Wyoming canna. I just assumed that it was sterile. Am I doing something wrong or is a rare thing for this canna?

Just curios. taj
bwilliams
Louisville, KY

January 11, 2009
5:38 PM

Post #5992737

This is extremely rare. From what I understand no one else has ever gotten seed or reported seed from either plant. The canna pink sunburst commonly produces seeds but it seems no one has really grown them out and shown what the seedlings look like. I plan to also do this.

Thumbnail by bwilliams
Click the image for an enlarged view.

taj12
Parkersburg, WV

January 11, 2009
8:55 PM

Post #5993376

I had never heard of seeds from these either.My Wyoming had huge seed pods but they are just empty husks.same with Cleopatra.
I always figured they are just hybrids. Will bre cool to see what comes out of seeds.
bwilliams
Louisville, KY

January 11, 2009
9:11 PM

Post #5993430

I have heard in the past that tropicanna came from Wyoming. I am not sure if this is true or not they share a lot in common. Most cannas are hybrids that are on the market. The species are a bit harder to find and usually do not have large flowers at all. Wyoming is polyploided with multiple sets of chromosomes. If the number of chromosomes are odd then the plant is sterile. If the number of chromosomes is even the plant is fertile. It seems the higher the count the more likely it will be sterile.
Tropicanna cleopatra and Bengal tiger are also Chimeras this is a odd trait that gives the plants the variegated foliage. It is unlikely it will be passed on to the seedlings.
Abutilon
Coal Center, PA
(Zone 6a)

January 12, 2009
3:12 AM

Post #5994768

I have grown 'Pink Sunburst' seedlings a number of times.
No variegation has come through in the seedlings.
Most of my seedlings have pink blooms. And most have been of dwarf habit like their parent.
joy112854
Crestview, FL

January 30, 2009
2:32 AM

Post #6069018

Brian: Such pretty little babies you have there. I grew some cannas from seeds I bought at Park's but they didn't do too well; but, it was probably me, as I'm a new gardner.
joy112854
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 1, 2009
3:09 PM

Post #6078283

Well I finally got thru the covering on so canna seeds I had and I have got them planted now so I am waiting to see what happens. I have a question bwilliams, do you have to nick your seed and what procedure do you use as getting them ready to plant?
bwilliams
Louisville, KY

February 1, 2009
8:00 PM

Post #6079476

I nick the important seeds using a file and a pair of pliers. They are then planted in a seed soil and watered plastic lids are placed on top and bottom heat of 85f to 90f is applied. Once they sprout the lid is removed and the plants are allowed to grow. For larger numbers of seeds I have large plastic containers with capillary matting at the bottom that is damp. The seeds are laid out evenly along the bottom of the container and the lid is placed on top. The bottom heat is also 90f. A majority of them will sprout in a few days and the rest the following weeks. The sprouting is a little erratic and as the sprouted ones are removed new seeds are added. Soaking these seeds in water can help speed up the process but the water should be changed daily only after a few days should the seeds be added to the container.
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 1, 2009
8:14 PM

Post #6079566

Thanks Brian, I just wonder how and if you nicked yours. I had the most terrible time of nicking mine . I was so frustrated trying to get it done I was ready to throw the seed away Finally someone told me to use a FB file and that should do it and it did thank goodness.
bwilliams
Louisville, KY

February 1, 2009
8:34 PM

Post #6079687

I dont recommend nicking thousands of seeds. I sprout around 3 thousand each year and only nick about 200 or so. I nick the ones I am most interested in by using a large metal file and some special pliers that have a cut out for holding the seeds. It works good and takes just a bit of time during the winter off months. Once nicked they should be potted up for sprouting.

Here is a photo from years past. I use to grow them out in 4 inch pots I now use very durable hard trays that grows them out to about 9 inches then they are put directly in the ground and the tray reused.

Thumbnail by bwilliams
Click the image for an enlarged view.

flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 1, 2009
8:40 PM

Post #6079717

Well thank goodness I only had 3 seed and the are yellow and orange. I don't know the genius of them but DH likes canna so I thought I would give growing a few with seed a try and then of course they had a canna co-op and I bought a few of them from that
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 1, 2009
11:04 PM

Post #6080274

Wow, look at all those baby cannas, Brain those are beautiful good job.
joy112854
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

February 2, 2009
1:48 AM

Post #6080980

I think they look pretty when they are babies like that. I think I`ll try Brian`s idea. I have little pair of pruners that has a sharp blade that looks like a parrots bill that nicks them quick and easy. I soak my seeds for a day and it softens them a bit for nicking and then my pruner will easily slice off a tiny spot to expose a bit of white. However you like to prepare them I think a little practice makes it easier too.

Karen
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 2, 2009
1:50 AM

Post #6080991

Karen: I haven't tried using my own seeds yet; but, I have ordered seeds from Park's before, and what I do is soak them for 3 days straight, changing the water about three times daily making sure the water is kept very warm, you might want to refrigerate the seeds until they are ready to be planted. After 3 days of soaking in warm water, they are easy to nick and the outer coating seems to be really easy to remove.
joy112854
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

February 2, 2009
2:03 AM

Post #6081047

Thanks joy, It will be cool to see how the flowers turn out. I`ll be following. Karen
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 2, 2009
2:32 AM

Post #6081140

Boy if you soaked them for 3 days and you was able to nick them easily you did better than me. I soaked mine for a week and didn't get them nicked until someone told me to use a file on them. then after I got it done didn't have a problem.
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 2, 2009
5:09 AM

Post #6081599

flowerfantasy: I think the trick is in the fact that I put my seeds in a zip lock freezer bag and kept them frozen for quite a while, then soaked them in hot water. I would change the water frequently also, trying to keep the water as warm as possible. Also, twirl them in your fingers from time to time when changing the water, you'll notice that some of that harder shell will rub right off. Of course, in my case, you are talking seeds I have purchased from Park's, not my own.
joy112854
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 2, 2009
6:43 AM

Post #6081712

Well these I purchased on ebayand I treid everything to make a small dent in them and like I said ony util I used the file on them did I get any results.
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 2, 2009
1:17 PM

Post #6082171

flowerfantasy: Maybe I just got lucky and got some easy to nick seeds? LOL
joy112854
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 2, 2009
2:23 PM

Post #6082391

Have you got any coming up yet? I have never done cannas b4 so how hard are they to get started? Or rather how long does it take for them to germinate?
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 3, 2009
2:24 AM

Post #6085725

Flower fantasy: it seemed to take forever for them to take off; but once they did, it was fine, I planted some in the beds this last Spring and hopefully, they will have made it through the fall and winter, fixing to fnd out in about a month. I have found rhizomes at such a reasonable price and am looking for particular varieties, as I want my garden full of canna lilies that I don't already have, so, have decided to buy rhizomes, I've been finding them for about $2 each which to me is very reasonable.
joy112854
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 3, 2009
3:26 AM

Post #6085955

Did you not get in on the canna co-op? I did and got some real good buys. Well I just put mine in a few days ago so I have a while to wait yet.
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 3, 2009
6:39 PM

Post #6088196

Flowerfanasy: No, heard about it after the fact, sniffles. Wish someone would have given me the heads up, or maybe it's good they didn't cause I got a few bucks left now. LOL
joy112854
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 3, 2009
7:00 PM

Post #6088307

joy, always go to th co-op forums and you will find all that are happening at the time. There is one thread on here that lists the co-ops going on I'll see if I can find it and it will tell you what few there is right now going on. Thats how I find out about them. no one told me about it either and I just happen to be in that particular forum when I seen it . There is a glads and lily co-op going on right now and I think the one for the hostas is still open too.
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 3, 2009
7:06 PM

Post #6088335

joy
this won't take you directly to the actual co-op but it will get you where you can get to it. This one is the glads and lilies.



[HYPERLINK@davesgarden.com]
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 4, 2009
12:57 AM

Post #6089876

flowerfantasy: The link doesn't work; but thanks anyways. If you hear of a canna co op again; please holler at me ok?
joy112854
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 4, 2009
2:11 AM

Post #6090238

They have got a few canna on the Hibiscus co-op going on right now. I am not sure of what all they have got though. Just go to ther co-op forum and brouse around until you find it. I just placed an order but I didn't order any canna as I had already ordered from the other co-op. They also have caladuims,Tropical bulbs and several other things in this one. I'll see if I can get you a link, don't know why that one didn't work.
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 5, 2009
12:39 AM

Post #6094236

flowerfantasy: I've been thinking about getting the Canna Austrailia but am waiting for a better price somewheres. It's a pretty one and new for this year.
joy112854
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 5, 2009
2:30 AM

Post #6094654

I haven't seen those on any of the canna site I have went to.Do you have a pic of it would like to see it.
bwilliams
Louisville, KY

February 5, 2009
2:40 AM

Post #6094703

Here is a pic of Australis next to bengal tiger and the last one is stuttgart. The leaves can get very dark at times looking almost black with large red flowers.

Thumbnail by bwilliams
Click the image for an enlarged view.

flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 5, 2009
2:45 AM

Post #6094733

Brian do you have any of these for sale yet?
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 5, 2009
3:01 AM

Post #6094809

Brian: You spoiled little brat! Yes, let us know when you got em for sale will ya?
joy112854
bwilliams
Louisville, KY

February 5, 2009
9:21 AM

Post #6095728

LOL I sense jealousy. I am more crazy than spoiled and no longer little. I am weighing in at a mear 220lbs.
I have finally been able to reach my goal which is to bench press double my body weight. I have always heard only one in a million can do it. This goal has just about killed me LOL.

I cannot defend the brat part that much is true.
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 5, 2009
2:41 PM

Post #6096318

Brian: So much for the little right? My younger brother gets upset when I call him my little brother, as he always laughs and says "little"? I'm a shrimp, so can't really call anyone little now can I? LOL Just learned how to use my camera and down load some pics so will download some of my cannas from last Spring/Summer ok?
joy
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 5, 2009
5:20 PM

Post #6097080

Would love to see them !!! I really envy Brian have you seen any of his gardens? I have seen pictures and they are beautiful. I have seen some of the EES he has grown , monsters !!!!!!!!!
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 5, 2009
7:12 PM

Post #6097554

flowerfantasy: Yepper, he has some mighty fine canna lilies there. Just went through an emergency planting at my house, my 4 artichoke plants showed up in a fed ex truck from Calif yesterday and they are year old plants; but, that's a long story.
joy112854
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 5, 2009
7:20 PM

Post #6097611

Yeah know about emergency planting LOL. I had some bulbs come from Thailand this morning I had to get in pots. That's a long way to travel and I wanted to make sure they would be ok , so I just stuck them in pots.
joy112854
Crestview, FL

February 5, 2009
7:25 PM

Post #6097633

flowerfantasy: You'd think I was nuts; but, I have made some homemade earth boxes; didn't put the drain holes in yet; that's a good thing, cause I got my artichokes planted in them in the house will drill the holes when I take outside when it warms up enough, may have to get Brian to lift them though right Brian? LOL
joy
flowerfantasy
Washington, IN
(Zone 6a)

February 5, 2009
7:28 PM

Post #6097645

Brian, Where in Louisville is your place? I have a sister that lives in New Albany and we are down that way alot and would like to meet you and see your stuff first hand.\
Carolyn
cannagirl
DeRidder, LA
(Zone 9a)

February 16, 2009
1:51 PM

Post #6145878

Brian, Like others I've never got seeds from these cannas. Can wait to see your Bengal Tiger in bloom. What do you feed your cannas?
bwilliams
Louisville, KY

February 16, 2009
7:46 PM

Post #6147399

Flowerfantasy I live just south of Louisville. You can look up our place at 6350 North Preston Hwy Louisville KY 40229. I can give you more detailed directions if you need them. Right now the place is a disaster but usually by April we start to look better by late summer it looks like a jungle.

Cannagirl I feed my cannas regular fertilizers I usually feed regularly with Magnesium Sulfate (Epson Salt) This will make the leaves stronger greener and sturdier. I also use Nitroform which is great on potted plants you can throw it on plants and it will not burn leaves it is a pure nitrogen that is time released. Ureais very similar and can be used but you have to be careful with it to much can damage a plant. I don't think that the fertilizers played much of a part on me getting the seeds on these odd varieties I think it was just me working with them more. I have to say that out of all the bengal tiger seeds 6 total I only got one to survive. They had substance in the seeds but I am not sure if they were capable of surviving maybe to many genes?
d_lilly
Vandalia, IL

February 23, 2009
12:47 AM

Post #6175738

Hello to all, as I read all about seeds,,Im wondering why dont you just divide the rhizones? Is it just the challenge of the breeding varities? just wondering?? Dee
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

February 23, 2009
9:53 PM

Post #6179767

I found these two canna seeds that are more than double normal size. I have never seen canna seeds this big and can`t wait to try and start them.

Some people can`t help themselves. The desire to find stuff that is different is a human trait we must endure in some form or fashion. :)

Watch women shop for shoes and you`ll get what I mean. Watch a man keep buying 100s of different fishing lures.

Some gardeners have to find that "special" plant that matches our favorite imagined landscape colors we are dreaming of you know? Some of us aren`t into spending a lot of money on a lot of plants so we play around with crossing plants and starting seeds.




This message was edited Feb 23, 2009 3:58 PM
bwilliams
Louisville, KY

February 23, 2009
11:24 PM

Post #6180224

The size of the seed has shown some signs that the plant is usually more genetically inclined than others. In most cases larger seeds produce larger flowering plants and more robust growth. This is not always true but it seems be a sign for superior plants. In most cases specie cannas will have normal size to often extremely small seeds. I have also found that with larger seeds less of them are fertile and many perish. Good luck.
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

February 23, 2009
11:42 PM

Post #6180308

I have noticed the fancy canna seeds have about a 80 - 85% germination while the specie type is 95 and more often 100% when germinated under the same conditions.Some of the "dud" fancy seeds showed no signs of life and just rotted while others showed partial germination parts that failed to grow kind of like a old seed that might sprout a nubby root that will not progress. It wasn`t damping off either. I could tell something was wrong with it.

I`m hunting through for some more of those big seeds. When I saw those it struck me as odd for sure. I showed them around like they were big tomatoes or beans out of the garden or something lol!

bwilliams
Louisville, KY

February 24, 2009
2:23 AM

Post #6180977

Here is a pic of some seeds were I was comparing size. The first small seeds were off of a species and then you can see how they get larger with the hybrids. The large seeds were off of plants that I think have more genetic information than the rest. It does not mean they will always be better but I feel they have more potential to be.

Thumbnail by bwilliams
Click the image for an enlarged view.

bwilliams
Louisville, KY

February 24, 2009
2:26 AM

Post #6180991

Here is another picture of some seeds. The seeds shown here in my hand have been some of the largest I have seen from all the seeds I have grown. It should be interesting to see what comes of them.

Thumbnail by bwilliams
Click the image for an enlarged view.

lhettenhausen
Highland, IL

February 24, 2009
3:21 AM

Post #6181212

My red cannas come up from seed for me, this year I have some orange dwarf's that I hope I get to grow too.
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

February 24, 2009
3:30 AM

Post #6181260

Wow,that`s neat. I only have 2 that look like the bigger ones and they happen to have come from a pod of seeds I used Bengal Tiger pollen to pollinate it. I didn`t cover it but did make a transfer of what looked like good pollen off the BT. They might be bigger partly because there were only 4 seeds in the pod? Maybe,maybe not because the pods can swell however size to hold the seeds. They looked like your 4 seeds toward the right two really big seeds and 2 somewhat smaller ones. I understand completely why seeds are irresistable!

I had another BT cross that was a short plant with large orange flowers but it disappeared into nowhere. I wonder if something ate it because it was there one day and gone without a trace the next. This year I get to try again and the suspense of waiting for warm weather is almost adrenaline producing making the seed addiction worse. LOL! :)

I agree the size alone is no rule but I did notice really large blooms,wide leaves and short to medium heigth from the big seeds and on the other hand taller plants with longer bloom stalks on the smaller seeds yet some did have better fuller blooms than the others and were well worth growing and keeping around.

Karen

edited: spellint...spleeng...spelling :)

This message was edited Feb 23, 2009 9:52 PM
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

February 24, 2009
3:33 AM

Post #6181275

Btw, some of the smaller seeds did grow into shorter canna but I still noticed the more narrow leaf and longer bloom stalks. I agree with you it probably is a common thing though not a carved in stone rule.
d_lilly
Vandalia, IL

February 24, 2009
4:11 AM

Post #6181465

Hello Laura,,fancy seeing you here! ,,man am I learning things,,theres a lot of smart people here..Hope all is well,,see ya Dee
bwilliams
Louisville, KY

February 24, 2009
5:34 AM

Post #6181695

Karen I am still not sure on Bengal tiger. I have tried it as a pollen parent and as the seed parent. I am sure that the variegation is not being shown in any of my seedlings from Bengal tiger and I am still not sure yet if it's pollen is viable. It probably has an uneven number of chromosomes and it is a chimera these usually make a plant sterile. I hope this season if I have enough time to do some controlled pollination to see if the pollen is viable. If you try a similar cross you may want to take a bit of extra time and tag the flower and remove the parts of the flower that look like petals to keep other insects from crossing with it. The results should show signs of the orange flower in bengal tiger. I would suggest a plant with a non orange flower for breeding something much different so it can be easier to ID a hybrid. You can usually tell a cross from a self seed fairly easy by comparing them. Most self seeds will look similar but not exactly like the parent. A hybrid will look more like a combination of the two.
gardener2005
Baton Rouge area, LA
(Zone 8b)

February 24, 2009
4:22 PM

Post #6183189

Thanks Brian,

Yes, I sure will try as you suggested controlled crosses to see what I can get. The worst thing that could happen is my resulting plants end up being put up for adoption on the side of the road. ;) (kidding)

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