St. Clare Heirloom Seeds is a family-owned and operated business, specializing in Heirloom and Open-pollinated (Non-hybrid) vegetable seeds. We sell only untreated and non-GMO seeds, with a nice selection of varieties to supply all your garden needs.
Also available for purchase is a large selection of books to help you in growing your own pure and delicious fresh food. Titles we carry cover a number of subjects including, gardening, seed saving, organic gardening, plant propagation, preserving food, cooking the harvest, country living and traditional skills, offering you the information you need to grow and save heirloom and open-pollinated seeds, and helping you to begin the path to self-sufficiency. We also carry excellent seed saving envelopes, available in blank or printed form, just click on the link in our side-bar menu. We have been very pleased with these envelopes ourselves, and believe our customers will like them too. Don't forget to check out our worm castings, natures 100% organic fertilizer! Our desire is to help make your gardening experience enjoyable and as easy as possible, that your garden may be a success. Thank you for your interest in our company. We wish you all a happy garden season!
MollyBlooms Grosse Pointe Farms, MI (11 reviews) May 1, 2016
Posted on November 16, 2015, updated May 1, 2016
Posted on August 13, 2015, updated November 16, 2015
Posted on June 11, 2015, updated August 13, 2015
Posted on April 19, 2015, updated June 11, 2015
Posted on January 22, 2015, updated April 19, 2015
These folks are FAST in filling their orders! This is the first time I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'ve ordered from this company. I placed an online order for seeds on Sunday, Jan. 18; the seeds arrived in the mail today, Thursday, Jan. 22 --- and remember that Monday was a national holiday.
I also placed an order for worm casts and look forward to getting that.
I like that they specialize in open-pollinated varieties. Selection isn\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'t huge, but they seem to have done a good job of vetting what they offer. I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'ve had bad experiences with mail order houses that offer everything plus the kitchen sink without regard to whether a particular variety is a good grower, has good flavor, etc. If the germination rate is on a par with their service, St. Clare\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s will have a repeat customer in me.On April 19th, 2015, MollyBlooms added the following:
Started some of the seeds about a week ago (the other varieties I ordered do better with direct sowing rather than being started indoors). So far, excellent germination. The heirloom tomatoes mix was up in about five days and the peppers are now starting to sprout.
I also ordered worm casts from this company and used them to top-dress some ailing tropical-to-tender plants that I overwintered in a cool greenhouse. (\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"Cool\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" became \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"life-threatening\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\" when the heat failed in February.) The plants, including two pink banana trees, are definitely the worse for wear after a long, dark winter, but within a week of my applying the worm casts, they are already doing much better and making new growth. I\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'m ordering more worm casts from St. Clare\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s as I do quite a bit of container gardening and hate to replace the potting soil year after year. Using worm casts seems like an effective way to rejuvenate existing soil.On June 11th, 2015, MollyBlooms added the following:
It\\\\\\\'s official: St. Clare\\\\\\\'s is now my favorite source for seeds. My order included a seed mix of heirloom tomatoes -- a fine idea, because I like heirlooms but don\\\\\\\'t like ordering a dozen packets to get some variety in what I plant. My tomato plants are now over 3\\\\\\\" high with two blossom sets each, which is something of a miracle given the late-May chill we had here, and they are continuing to grow like gangbusters. Same for the broccoli plants, which are huge and thriving. We\\\\\\\'ve already had three salads from the lettuce seeds from St. Clare\\\\\\\'s.
Now for the worm casts: I have two pink banana trees, grown from seed, which took a hit when the heat went out in my greenhouse and they died back to the roots. I scratched some of St. Clare\\\\\\\'s worm casts into the soil and said a prayer. Now each plant is over 2\\\\\\\" tall and looks great.On August 13th, 2015, MollyBlooms added the following:
This is the best yield/quality of tomatoes I\\\'ve had in years. I did re-site my container garden, which may have helped, but the flavor and performance of these heirloom tomatoes is out of this world. Very pleased.On November 16th, 2015, MollyBlooms added the following:
I placed an order this morning and by 10:30 I had an e-mail confirming that my order had shipped! The speed is impressive but the communications are even more so. Wish this was the industry standard; I feel like sharing this with the several online nurseries that somehow cannot notify the customer when an order has shipped/will ship. Thanks, St. Clare\'s!On May 1st, 2016, MollyBlooms added the following:
Received my order of worm casts with St. Clare's usual lightning speed, and I've top dressed my container gardens with it. A last-season's pepper plant that I had pretty much given up on shot up a foot and covered itself in leaves and buds following an application. The seeds I ordered have a very high germination rate Very pleased with this company as always!
I've been a customer of St. Clare Seeds for the past two years and would highly recommend them! I am very happy to be able to support a family business, along with purchasing non-GMO, heirloom and organic seeds. My orders have all shipped amazingly quickly, and have included a free pack of seeds to try along with it. They have a great selection of seeds and the ordering process is easy. I especially love that the seeds come in resealable bags inside of the paper envelopes to keep my extra seeds safe. I will definitely be ordering from them again and again.
nebraska1 Lewellen, NE (1 review) February 11, 2016
I have been a customer of St Clare for at least four years! They have been awesome and timely in response in correspondence.i have only had one issue of germination of which they were totally responsive and resolved in a professional and more than positive response! Thank you St Clare I feel confident every time I order that I will get good product, service and care!
Excellent website with some neat hard to find items. Great selections. I ordered labels for my canning jars as well with my order. Haven't seen those offered on a site before! Seeds and items ordered came quickly and organized and packaged perfectly. Love ordering from company's like this. Glad I found them and will gladly use them for my next seed purchase. Highly recommend
janecarol2 Fort Jennings, OH (1 review) March 22, 2015
This is the first time I have made a purchase from St. Clare Seeds based on their high ratings with the Garden Watchdog. The seeds I ordered were received very promptly. I will make a purchase from them in the future.
krisvog Lawrenceburg, TN (1 review) March 17, 2015
My new favorite seed sellers!!! We purchased seed from St. Clare's last year. I had the biggest, most beautiful marigolds ever! We were pleased with all of the seed that we purchased. The order arrived very quickly and everything we planted grew well. We highly recommend them! Oh, and their customer service is outstanding, as we needed to add to one of our orders and it was no problem at all.
Thank you St Clare Seeds. We received excellent service. Our seeds arrived on time. When we ordered on the internet my computer was not working as well as St Clare Seeds computers. I pushed the submit button one to many times my charges was times three. I then wrote them and email in which their reply was very prompt. They returned my money as they said they would. Thank you for being the most honest people we have ever done business with.
Scott and Cindy
I have yet to start germinating any of the seeds (they look to be of excellent quality) but I am so very satisfied already! I bought worm castings (very good rich quality and organic) which have the shipping already worked into the cost and are shipped Priority Mail along with 8 packets of seed. St.Clare's Seeds added an additional pack of FREE Heirloom Tomatoes! Isn't that nice? -- Also, I ordered late in the evening on 1/28 and received my order (both the castings and the seed) on 1/31. Amazingly quick turnaround! A good faith and family oriented company. I will definitely continue to do business with them and will encourage my associates to do the same.
This was my second experience buying from St Clare Heirloom Seeds. The first time, three years ago, my husband and I bought quite a bit of seed for his sister and her husband, as a thank you for some help they had given us. We asked for the seed to be sent anonymously, and St Clare Seeds went above and beyond to accomodate us. My sister-in-law is planting the last of their seed in the spring, and says they've had some of the best germination rates of any seed she's worked with (and they garden and preserve for a family of 16, so she knows what she's talking about!). My husband and I decided then to buy from St Clare when we were able to do our own garden.
My town has established a community garden, so I can finally have my dream of gardening! I went straight to St Clare Heirloom Seeds to purchase, even though it's early. Based on my sister-in-law's experiences, I was comfortable enough to buy several of the half-off 2014 seed packets, thus starting my first garden economically, as well as allowing me to splurge on a couple additional vegetables varieties that I wasn't planning on. Service is just as wonderful as before. If things turn out as I expect they will, I will be buying primarily from St Clare Seeds from now on.
1st order, was extremely quick and very satisfying. Will shop here again.
jmc1987 Cascade, VA (Zone 7a) (2 reviews) August 10, 2014
Quite a wonderful seed company! I purchased beet and radish seed from them and it all arrived quite quickly, with informative papers to help you along with growing what you purchased. I even received a little bonus packet of seed and sample pack of earthworm castings! Will definitely buy from them again!
Very happy with my order, will definitely be ordering from them again in the future.
BoPo Milwaukee, WI (Zone 5b) (2 reviews) April 28, 2014
I purchased some seeds locally and then I felt guilty for purchasing GMO seeds, so I returned them and did a google search for local companies who sell non-GMO seeds.
I decided to place an order with St. Clare for various seeds and WOW, my order came speedy fast. I couldn't be happier with my first experience with St. Clare and I will definitely be a returning customer. I also received a few "freebies" with my order, and I'm very happy.
Thank you St. Clare for providing us with great customer service and NON GMO seeds!
cindyb7272 Taylorsville, NC (1 review) April 7, 2014
as a new gardener I need lots of information. They send a newsletter with their shipment and I enjoyed that very much! The seeds look good and are well packaged. They are not planted but I'm excited!
I ordered seeds by mail and received them in 3 days. I was impressed by the prompt service and I'm excited to see how the seeds do! I also received a couple "freebies" with my order which is always fun. Will most likely be ordering seeds from this company again as I have started ordering heirloom and/or open-pollinated seeds and I feel this company's values mirror my own.
I just sent in my third order! That says a lot, doesn't it?
I love the abundance of great info about planting and what to expect from the seed I order. I'm very happy with the results I've had and look forward to another great year of gardening. Highly recommended product and service!
I was pleased with how quickly St. Clare Heirloom Seeds shipped my seed order. They offer a lot of seed items that I use everyday and their prices are very reasonable. I will be ordering from them again. I originally found them when I was searching for planting information.
John & Sarah treated me like a friend. In placing an order for several families (to share shipping costs), I realized after the fact that I'd missed a list. I emailed to ask if I could add the extra seeds, and they very graciously said I could either place a second order & they'd refund the second shipping charge (sending all the seeds together), or I could send the list of seeds I'd missed & they'd redo the order for me. They even offered to separate out the seeds from the different orders in the packaging! I placed a second order (to spare them the trouble), and they did refund the extra shipping charge on the credit card. The seeds arrived quickly, in good condition, and in generous amounts (I'm sharing the extras with other gardening friends). I loved doing business with them!
Posted on October 27, 2012, updated January 24, 2014
Love the selection, immediate service and commitment to ideals that reflect my own- please keep up the good work and may God BlessOn January 24th, 2014, vetrap added the following:
Only issue last year was ambiguity with Red Brandywine seeds. Last year's offering were Potato leaf variety. Glad to see they addressed the issue and this year they offer Landis regular leaf RB. Received this years order within a week. Pleasure dealing with John and Sarah.
merrytyne Bloomfield, PA (1 review) January 14, 2014
I ordered my 2014 vegetable garden seeds from St. Claire's after seeing all of the positive reviews here on GardenWatchdog. I was not disappointed!! My seeds were shipped within a day and I received everything that had been ordered, they even included some free broccoli! There was also a handwritten thank you note from John, as well as some helpful materials about gardening in general. I loved that I was able to order from a small family business and that everything was heirloom and non treated/GMO. I look forward to ordering from them again and would highly recommend them.
I was very impressed by the website. Ordered a number of seeds and received them and 1 free packet within a couple of days. Very impressed can not wait to plant the seeds. Already have told others and they are going to order as well. Will definetely order from again.
Found this company while searching for GMO free seeds. Placed my order and received the seeds in two days!
Timbob93 Menominee, MI (Zone 5a) (1 review) December 6, 2013
I started buying from St. Clare Seeds last growing season and just completed my order for the 2014 growing season. This company is fantastic with selection as well as their service. The particular thing I like the most is they are about 40 miles or so from my front door and I didn't even know that. This makes the seed more adaptable for my garden!
This is a good, positive Company that I will support!
and a New Year wish for a great growing season to all!
TJHarnish Round Rock, TX (1 review) August 21, 2013
I had a really good experience with this company! The ordering process was simple and payment method secure. The owners were polite, knowledable and quick in responding to my questions and inquiries. My seeds came quickly and I cannot wait to plant my fall garden. I really felt like I was dealing with my "friendly local neighborhood business". Thank you so much J & S. I will definately be ordering from you again. I will give you highest recommendations to my family, co-workers, friends and fellow gardeners :-)
SweeChee Columbiaville, MI (1 review) June 1, 2013
I love the resealable bags the seeds come in! Everything I've planted has come up wonderfully, except some bush beans and they're sending me a replacement pack from a new lot of seeds! They were very quick to respond when I asked them about my beans. I've just placed my third order with them. Although they're a little pricey, you get what you pay for, including great customer service, St. Clare Heirloom will be my go to for all my seeds from now on!
seeds came quickly, look to be in fine health. liked the extra step of the sealed protective bag inside the seed envelope. two thumbs up! will, and have recommended you on to other local growers looking for heirloom corn
I won't say that they ship fast, But I'm not sure I closed my order page window before my seeds arrived. I only ordered 3 envelopes of tomato seeds, BUT, when I opened the package, there were 4 envelopes. I thought:"Great, another screw-up!" I checked the envelopes, and everything I ordered was there, PLUS an envelope marked "FREE PACK". They included a pack of "Florida Basket" (a new product) for me to try. I don't believe I have ever been treated this well by a mail order company!
I will order from them again, and spread the word to my friends.
We just received our seeds for this year's garden! We've been ordering from St. Clare Seeds for just a couple years now and have had great success with growing and seed saving. We appreciate how quickly they fill and ship our orders. We decided to expand our garden this year and are excited for the season to begin!
GimliFan zone 5, PA (Zone 5a) (1 review) March 27, 2013
All I can say is: Wow! Been ordering online for a while and was immediately refreshed (spoiled lol) by this company's response to my order: Confirmation email(s); Super reasonable shipping cost - received my order quickly and well packed; I have already made a second order (I received a discount coupon with first order then forgot about it and emailed them - the response was respectful, considerate and said it will be applied!) I like the site showing how many seeds are left. I am still collecting seed, but can say simply scroll down to other comments ref the high germination rate. All this for not large $$$ orders - I heart this company and hope it prospers! I really appreciate seeing JMJ to!
Overall, this in our family's opinion is the best and most honest seed company we've dealt with. We're in zone 7 and farm all throughout the year, probably doing business with about 10 seed companies this past year alone to get a variety, and came across St. Clare just last year, which has now become our go-to-seed company. My family has been gardening for years and years. I'm not saying that St. Clare is the cheapest seed company out there because they are not, just the best company in our opinion. I can't ever see getting any old seeds (or seeds that were harvested too early) that sprout poorly from this company. For example, a very reputable company with excellent marketing (and I don't like naming names with bad reviews so I won't) has sent seeds we've purchased, that take a very long time to mature on the vine in the fruit properly, and they don't sprout well. If you've ever read an article on how hard it is to sprout pepper and eggplant seeds and how their germination rate is low, that's not true... it's probably just the fact that someone didn't get seed from a 110 day pepper that was ready for seed harvesting, or the company old seed. We sprout and save seeds, and have no trouble using heating pads and getting soils at the right temperature and dampness with the knowledge of farming we have. So when we get seed from other companies that doesn't match up to St. Clare, we really notice the difference. Over 95% of their seed seems to sprout when done correctly and I don't know if there is another company that is as HONEST as St. Clare. (Sprouted St. Clare Subright Bells, Orange King Bells and Purple Beauty Bells with top notch success rates this late winter indoors). Even with specific questions, they'll always get back to us eventually with an in depth response & educational answer. Also, might I add they are super speedy always, ALWAYS, on getting our orders processed and shipped to us. And a lot of the time they even have thrown in free seed... :), along with a 10% discount coupon code for future orders. Not the biggest company, but the best and a nice selection of rare non-hybrid seeds in our opinion. There are a few other great companies out there, but St. Clare is our favorite because of their HIGH QUALITY of seed, their HONESTY and their SPEEDY PROCESSING which is second place to none. And when you're looking for organically grown non-GMO seed, you would like to order from an HONEST company. Shalom.
i can not say enough good things about this great heirloom seed company. this is my second year ordering from them. fast shipping, good prices, low shipping cost, excellent seeds that grew beautiful plants. a nice informative news letter that came with the seeds. their prices are as cheap as a wal-mart. i tell my family and friends about them. you can see the care that goes into your order. they give coupons to save on the next order with no expiration date and they gave me a free pack of seeds. i love them!!!
We love St. Clare Seeds and have been using them as our source for seeds for three years now. Their seeds are non-GMO, heirloom, and untreated! Not only that, but they are less expensive than any others we have found. They ship immediately, often throw in a few packs of free seeds, and I love the quotes and messages on their site. We are learning more each year in our garden and have been so happy with the seeds from St. Clare's. I love that we are supporting a small business. I've recommended them to many friends as well as on my blog and hope that they stay around for a long long time!
olga1990 Englewood Cliffs, NJ (2 reviews) March 5, 2013
Did not have much success with their seeds ( placed $55 order last year).
Asked for some replacements.
They sent $ 10 refund instead.
Not the best experience. Company representative comment on March 5, 2013: On Mar 5, 2013 10:34 PM, St. Clare Heirloom Seeds responded with:
We do thank you for your input, and we are sorry for your disappointment. We appreciate the opportunity to share those reading here how we have dealt with a customer's complaints. We do feel that we offered a fair resolution, in light of our return policy (http://www.stclareseeds.com/contactus.html , scroll down to view policy). You state that you asked for replacements, and while you did, you actually said in your original email, "Please sent a replacement for next season or a refund." As we do not explicitly promise either replacements or refunds, due to the varying nature of gardening(climate, weather that particular season, customer ability variances, etc.), we felt that the compensation was fair.
As we stated to the customer, most of the varieties she ordered are very popular varieties, we sell many, many packets for these particular varieties, and had no other complaints last year on these varieties, rather, we had numerous compliments on their high germination rates. We also have grown a number of them in our own garden, and had great germination rates. The few more obscure varieties that she ordered are well known for being more difficult to germinate, so we feel the results are typical to seeds of those varieties from any company. Nevertheless, we still sent a partial refund. When we have a customer writing tell us even 3-5 seed packets didnít grow well, we have no problem replacing or refunding, but in this case the customer was asking for refund or replacement on nearly the whole order, which we felt was not truly just, considering all the above mentioned factors.
Of note in this interaction is the fact that this customer just wrote to us this last week and stated that we never gave her the refund, but admits here that we did. We are glad to hear that she found that we did indeed send her the refund back in November when she wrote to us with her original request.
Olga never wrote us with a reply when we replied to her complaint back in November, never giving us any fair chance to make it further right, not telling us she was still dissatisfied. Then last week, months later she writes and tells us she checked her account, and she never got her refund, and that she wanted replacement seeds. If she had written saying she felt it was an unfair or unsatisfactory compensation, we would have willingly worked with her, but we had the sense from her emails, what she said, and her timing of writing to us(as she was getting ready to order more seeds) that this customer was not dealing fairly or in an upright way with us.
Again we are sorry, Olga, that you are not satisfied, as we truly do strive to give a positive experience to our customers when dealing with our company.
To our other valued customers and readers here at Dave's Garden, we ask that you look upon the much more numerous positive ratings as the true reflection of how we do business!
May God Bless You,
John and Sarah
GodGave7 Fort Atkinson, WI (1 review) February 21, 2013
When I discovered that there was a seed supplier right here in my home state that specialized in heirloom and non-GMO seeds, I knew I had to give them a try.
Well, my large order of seeds has arrived, and I am happy to say that I am not only pleased, but surprisingly impressed. Not only was shipping very low cost, but it was also very prompt. The seeds were packed beautifully and carefully, and a free packet of seeds was also enclosed. The invoice was personally signed, which was a nice touch.
The website is very pretty, easy to navigate, and the ordering and checkout very user-friendly. All the varieties of seeds I was looking for were available and very reasonably priced compared to other sources. I truly could not be happier with this company, and plan to order from them every year.
Almost everything I've purchased over the last 15 years has been from the internet. St Clare seeds is only the second company I've bothered to write a positive review for. I have given many places negative reviews because it is much easier to take the time to do so when your mad about a lousy product or service. I don't bother doing a review for a company that sends me the product I ordered in a reasonable time because that is what I expected when I ordered it. Only if a company goes above and beyond my expectations would I bother to recommend them. St Clare seeds is that company. I keep an emergency heirloom seed storage just in case and since no seeds will store forever, I plant the seeds I've had stored in the freezer after several years and reorder new ones. I consistently get near 100% germination on my stored seeds which led me to start planting 1 seed per container instead of the 2 to 3 seeds needed from other companies. Great product! I have received every order within three days and most within two. Great service! They even throw in a couple freebies with the order. If you want a great product and great service, you can not go wrong with this company.
I found St.Clare Seeds while doing a search for non GMO seeds. I love how fast my order got here (TX), in just a couple days! And they sent a free packet of seeds! Just an added bonus that they are located in Wis., the state I'm from!
Thanks St. Clare Seeds. Hope to order from you every year!
Posted on December 29, 2012, updated January 3, 2013
So, I was planning to order about thirty dollars worth of seeds, because I like to save my own seeds from year to year, BUT last season was a bad season especially for my peppers and tomatoes and there wasn't anything to save at the end of the season. So, I needed to find a company that could sell me some seeds for this season.
Obviously since I like to save seeds from year to year I need heirlooms (I will plant a certain amount of hybrids every year, but mostly heirlooms are where it's at for me) and through Dave's Garden I found St. Clare Heirloom Seeds - they had what I wanted, so I placed many items in my cart.
Good so far, right. However, when I was asked to input my information to place my order I was warned that the certificate for http://www.stclareseeds.com was expired and that I should leave the website.
So now I need to find another company to order my seeds from, but I thought it might be helpful to drop a message to St. Clare Heirloom Seeds letting them know about this issue if they don't all ready.On January 2nd, 2013, ConGar changed the rating from neutral to positive and added the following:
So, I ended up going ahead with my order from this company (after they fixed the issue, obviously), because the other night it was late and while I did look for another company I was tired (sleepy) and decided to just wait until the next day.
By the next day St. Clare Heirloom Seeds had fixed their website issue, and since they'd responded to the problem quickly (and my order was still in the shopping cart) plus they offered me a nice (and unexpected) discount I went ahead and placed my order with them.
(In addition to adding a few more packets to my order.)
And I got my seeds yesterday, and I noticed they included a free pack of seeds in addition to all of the above, but I had to work so I wasn't able to update this entry until today.
Obviously I cannot comment on seed germination yet, but decided if I waited for that I might forget to come back and update - obviously if germination is off I'll be back, but most of my order was tom seeds and it's rare for me to have a problem with tom seed germination.Company representative comment on December 29, 2012: On Dec 28, 2012 11:33 PM, St. Clare Heirloom Seeds responded with:
We thank you for the review, and concern for our customers. We are actually at this very moment working on fixing this. We just arrived home not 2 hours ago from our family's Christmas Trip to visit extended family out-of-state, to find an e-mail notifying us of this issue with the Security Certificate. It was supposed to have been renewed, but somehow got missed so we are in contact with our webhost to fix this ASAP. We should have this fixed by the morning, as our webhost is very good at getting back to us quickly on things, and we plan on staying at it tonight until this is resolved. Thank you once again for your concern! Many blessings in the New Year!
On Dec 29, 2012 8:56 AM, St. Clare Heirloom Seeds added:
Just to update this matter for all our customers, our Security Certificate is once again valid and updated! If you wish to verify this during the ordering process, in secure areas (i.e. pages beginning with Https://, etc., basically any pages once you click "Checkout"), you can click on the little lock icon/image in the browser's address bar, and you will be given the verification information for our Security Certificate and its validity. Thank you , ConGra, once gain for sharing your concern for our valued customers! Happy Gardening to all!
Posted on June 11, 2012, updated December 15, 2012
Greatly pleased with with our order of Japanese Hulless Popcorn which was difficult to find! John and Sara sent a free extra package of the popcorn, something useful which we were thrilled to get! The order came quickly with personal thank you note. Reasonably priced. Seed germination was excellent! We will be back to try more next year!On December 15th, 2012, heirloommama added the following:
Our family and friends continue to rave about the flavor and lack of hulls in this popcorn since harvesting it last fall. We highly recommend the Japanese Hulless Popcorn which is the gourmet treat it is represented as!