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Anyone doing "Extreme Couponing"? I'm saving serious money!

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

My daughter recently took a one-day class and then showed what she learned, one way to save some [serious] money. Now, don’t roll your eyes until you hear me out…. We’re saving big bucks via using coupons when shopping for our groceries, but it’s not the old-fashion way of couponing. For instance, Monday I went to Kroger’s, here in Mid-Michigan, and purchased $507.16 worth of groceries, toiletries, cleaning supplies, meat, fruit, treats, etc., and after my coupons and my in-store rewards card were scanned, I only paid $229.13. ….I saved $278.03 or 55%

Here in Michigan, we have some stores (Kroger’s being one) that will double your coupons up to $1.00; that's where we shop for sale items only. Here is the website we joined for here in Mid-Michigan and therein we find out what sales the “double your coupon stores” are having and where we can get coupons for those items. I then buy 3 copies of the same Sunday newspapers that has all the coupons in it, cut them all out, and organize them in a large 3-ring 'zip up' binder I use for couponing. …..If you’ve ever watched an episode of “Extreme Couponing” you’ve seen it in action. In just 4 shopping trips since February, I have saved a total of $717.42, and I only buy items that are on sale, that I have a coupon for, –and- I only buy items I will use or eat. My shelves downstairs are busting at the seams with items I NEED and I would have paid full price for in the past. …..Everything else I need I buy at Wal-Mart, Aldi, and places where the prices are lower than Kroger.

It might be worth looking to see if there is a group in your area that is similar to the one I joined, and find out where the closest store is that will double coupons. I’m still new at extreme couponing so the highest I’ve saved is 65%, but my daughter who is a whizz at this often saves in the 70-90’s%. We had to laugh and shake our heads; a couple weeks ago, she sent her husband into Kroger’s with a list of items to buy, a stack of coupons, and a $5.00 bill. Jason came out with a grocery cart FULL of things they needed, and brought her back the change from the $5.00 bill. No kidding! Anyways……money saved via extreme couponing, that you would have spent otherwise, can significantly help fill up your GAS TANKS!
Hope this helps someone! Every penny counts!!
~ Glenda

San Antonio, TX(Zone 8b)

Every penny does count! We no longer have any double-coupon stores and one (admittedly very good) regional supermarket has just about edged out most competition. Albertson's & Kroger left. Wal-Mart & SuperTarget are here. The regional place has begun accepting computer-printout coupons so that should help a little.

Northeast, AR(Zone 7a)

I watch extreme couponing but I just don't get the deals they get or even the deals you get, Glenda. I did save $20 on a $50 shopping trip one day. But I didn't feel thrilled with the savings. I want BIG saving like other people are getting. Can you share some other tips?

Are there ever any coupons on produce? I eat mostly fruits and veggies, which are so expensive. My grocery bill is much higher since I cut out most canned or packaged foods in favor of fresh produce. I spend about twice what I used to spend.

I do use and I do sign up with my favorite restaurants and companies that make the things I like. I'll have to start getting the Sunday papers. I haven't been doing that. I love printing coupons online because I can print out a dozen of the same coupon if I like it.

Please share other tips you've learned.


Newark, OH(Zone 5b)

I've watched the extreme coupon show. One guy had something like 2000 tubes of toothpaste. I think I use 3 or 4 a year. Another couple had over 200 bags of chips or chip-like products. One woman bought 35 bottles of antacids. Another had over 100 bottles of liquid dish detergent.

What in the world do people do with all that stuff?

We try to eat healthy and use very little processed food. We get the Sunday paper but the coupons seem to be mostly for cosmetics, baby care, or junk food. I am also on - but they only let you print out the coupons once. Out of 15 pages of coupons, I am lucky if I find 2 coupons for things we use. Then, you often have to buy 3 of something to save 50 cents. We can usually buy the store brand for less than using a coupon for a name brand - and for something like raisin bran, which my Mom eats, the store brand is just as good.

I do have a Kroger customer card. I do go to three different groceries some weeks, most often I go to two... Kroger and Meijer. Kroger has much better produce. It costs more, but the quality is much better.

We buy what is on sale, and use coupons when we can. I keep a decent supply cupboard and a freezer. Other than milk, bread and a few weekly things, I shop carefully. I get emails from Meijer with the preview for the next week's sale flyer. I compare what is on my list of items we need, and if it's going on sale next week, I won't get it this week if it will be less expensive next week. I also make sure to use coupons before they expire and try to use them when an item goes on sale to maximize savings.

We might have a total bill of $120 per week including all trash bags, personal care, cat food, dog treats, everything we buy at those two stores, and with coupons and sale prices bring it down to $100.

I can't see the idea of us having 20 bottles of detergent, 10 bags of cat food, thirty cans of peaches, or whatever on hand for two people - which is a fraction of what the people on the couponing show have -- when what we DO have now sometimes goes out of date before we use it.

I'm sorry. I am all for saving money, but I just don't get the extreme couponing. Maybe for a family of 10 --- but many of the people on that show are only 2 or 4 per family. The one guy had enough extra to make 1000 packages to send to our troups.... that was just what he thought he could spare...?

Northeast, AR(Zone 7a)

Daylily, while you can only PRINT the coupons once or twice from, you can COPY the coupons you print out. I make about a dozen copies of the ones I'll use and I carry them all to walmart and can use them all as long as I purchase the items required.

I often use coupons to try new things. I like some fiber bars, so when I get coupons for different bars, I try them. Some I've liked and some I didn't. But it's a cheap way to try out something new.

I do stock up on what I use, especially non perishables. Like you, Daylily, I can't see having a 5 yr supply of anything. I don't even have room to store a bunch of stuff. I know some of the extreme couponers donate a lot of their stuff to the Food Bank. That's a great idea if you can get stuff for free like many of them do. I'd love a $600 shopping spree that cost me $11. I could donate a bunch of stuff if I could get coupons like that.

We have a Fazoli's Italian restaurant. I signed up online for email coupons. Every so often they offer buy one get one free. Or on Customer appreciation day, spaghetti with two breadsticks was 99 cents. Yesterday, they had a tax day special and the spaghetti and breadsticks were 1.99. A friend and I both had a big lunch AND dinner for just $4. One serving of their spaghetti is enough for two meals.

But I want those extreme couponing deals where almost everything is free. How do they do that???

Newark, OH(Zone 5b)

I did not think of people donating the extras they get - that would be great.

It seemed the people on the TV show were keeping the items, except for the man who had to much and made the packages to send to the troops. It seemed a little like organized hoarding? I don't mean to be judgmental. I really don't. It just seems wasteful to get so many items --even if they cost little or are free - if you can't possibly use them.

I never though to copy the coupons I print out.

I can see where this would get to be sort of ... I don't know how to put it ... In your blood? It could be fun to see how much you could save.

Northeast, AR(Zone 7a)

I know what you mean, daylily. I thought the same thing, that some of the people seemed like organized hoarders. Some had entire garages or rooms dedicated to storing several years' supply of food, soap, etc. One lady even had some kind of can-rotating shelving system, kind of like they have in stores. When she'd remove a can, another can would roll into its place. So the oldest cans rolled out first, so she could use items before their expiration dates.

On the first extreme couponing episode, one of the guys got tons of stuff for free and donated a lot of it to a food bank or shelter or something. He built a big "pyramid" in his front yard out of all the stuff he was donating just for fun. The food bank was sending a big truck over to collect the "pyramid".

I'm a bargain shopper. I do Craigslist, Ebay, yard sales, flea markets, etc. I'm always getting great bargains and even some freebies. But I can't seem to get the same deals on food.

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

I know what you mean about some of the people on the EC show; there are those who do that just because they can, or for the "sport" of it; they like to SEE how much they have. That's not for me. ....Some people are aware that history repeats itself and they believe hyperinflation is coming so they're preparing for it but nothing to the degree I've seen on TV. .....I guess there are lots of reasons people try to make their coupons go as far as they can. There are a lot of things out of our control, but saving money by getting the most we can out of couponing is something we can do. I'm thankful for that. :)

I don't mind stocking up on things I need when they're on sale; that's just being wise stewards of our money., a local web couponing website in our area that my daughter and I have subscriptions to, also keeps track of how many dollars worth of items purchased by their couponing members that are given to food banks, family crisis centers, etc. Now THAT I don't have a problem with, and that is exactly what my daughter and I do. We keep track of the expiration dates on the things we buy (I write them right on the label where I can see them from my pantry door) and a couple months before they expire, everything we haven't used goes to the Family Impact Center here where we live. The director LOVES all the coupon-ers in our area and is grateful for everything they bring in. If couponing can help a family in need then I'm all for that, but hoarding just for the sake of hoarding; that's not for me.

Again, I’m fairly new to couponing so I'm still learning, but I’m realizing that how much a person can save is limited by store couponing policies in their area. Not all stores are alike, even within the same chain. Here where I live, Kroger will let you only use 3 of the same coupons per day, they’ll double every coupon up to a $1 coupon, with a Kroger rewards card they’ll give you their in-store coupons in addition to your paper coupons, and then they also have what either Kroger or Savingsmania calls a “Mega” which, for the best savings power, must be bought in quantities of 4 – don’t ask me why……I’m not sure exactly how all that works yet. I’m STILL learning. .....The key factor in my case, using, is Savingsmania does all the research on what's on sale and where you can get coupons for those items. They do all the legwork; we just pay the monthly subscription to be able to print off their weekly information sheet and use it to decide what we want to buy that is on sale or free with coupons. Savingsmania has a staff that goes out into our area and does the homework for us.....which in my opinion is worth every penny we pay for the subscription of $10 per month.

I’d be happy to share with you couponing techniques that my daughter is teaching me. I’m sure she’ll be over here this coming week; I’ll pick her brain then and get back with you all.

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

Okay everyone, this is what my daughter wrote me:

Hi Mom,

Hopefully this will help out the ladies on your forum. First, a great place to get information is and click on the "beginners" tab. This is one of the first places I happened across when I was wanting to start out. If they will start their binders the very first week they start clipping coupons, that will help out immensly (or whatever organized way they want to go). The Krazy Coupon Lady does have binder dividers that can be printed at home - which is the route I chose to go. Up here in Michigan Kroger's coupon policy allows us to use 3 "like" coupons in one transaction and will NOT allow you to divide up your orders to accomodate more of the same coupons. I can only imagine that where these Extreme Couponers are going, they either don't have a limit on "like" coupons (which are the same exact coupon...referencing the sku) or the stores are making an exception for the publicity of the tv show. Either way, yay for the couponer....but stinky for us. ;) Whether or not the ladies on your forum have more or less restrictions on their couponing, it's still very easy to save a ton of money!

Okay, so you have your binder/organization done. Go to the websites of the stores in your area and print out their coupon policy. Read it and get to know it very well!! If it's not on their website, email them for it! Once you know the rules, you'll be able to maximize your savings.

There are some websites that you can print coupons from. Most of them only allow you to print 2 of the same coupon. I know some people do photocopy those to make multiples, but that is not legal. The skus HAVE to change and the stores will not get reimbursed for photocopied coupons. Yes, there are stores that take them - but only because the cashier is not paying attention. If you want more than two copies, you CAN use multiple computers in your house to print 2 from each. Some coupons in the Sunday paper are so good that I order more on ebay. Watch for reputation of the seller & the expiration dates! I recently purchased 45 Propel coupons that were $1 off 2 Propel ($1/2). I paid $7 shipped for those coupons. Kroger doubles that $1 to $2. This week their Propel went on sale (yet again) for $1. So far I have 38-40 Propel all that I've gotten for free. Normally, they cost $1.29 each. In the end, I will get 90 bottles of Propel for $7. Basically that's $0.07 cents per bottle.

So here's the MAJOR rule to couponing - ONLY use your coupon when the item the coupon is for is on SALE! The bigger the sale - the better!! Once in a while I'll come across a product that is not on sale, but with the coupon - I'm still getting it for very cheap or free - Thats okay! Just when you're starting out, if it's not on sale - keep on walking!!

To find out the deals in your area, go to You can look by state/location and even print off a shopping list where it'll tell you what coupon to use, what the sale price is, and what the final price will be. They basically do the work of finding the deals for you....and it's a free service at that!
The Krazy Coupon Lady will most definitely give the ladies the BEST information!! They have several videos - and I've watch every single one...some multiple times! They're a fantastic and free resource that I use all the time.

If anyone has questions, let me know and I'll get a response to them! You know how I love saving money! ;)
Love ya!

Dover AFB, DE(Zone 7a)

Ah, the 'tricks of the trade' Thanks!

Northeast, AR(Zone 7a)

Glenda, thank you and your daughter for all the info. With the prices of everything going up all the time, couponing is necessary. I'll check out the sites and the videos and take notes. Thanks for your time in posting all this info.


Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

It's no problem at all; we're glad to help any way we can. If we ALL look out for each other and share money saving info when we have it, we'll all fair a lot better! :) Every penny counts!

Hey, it probably gives this detail at the websites she mentioned, but just in case.... In your LARGE 3 ring binder, your pages are the clear plastic baseball card holder sheets for 3 ring baseball card binders. Each set of "like" coupons go into 1 baseball card slot. ....I'll post a photo of my binder...... Stay tuned. :)

Also, another thing we do to speed up the clipping of coupons, Heather takes all the inserts from the newspapers, and puts/matches all the same pages together. Then on each set of "like" pages, she staples each set of coupons she wants - making sure not to put the staple near the bar code or info about the coupon - somewhere where it will be easy to tear the coupon from the staple. Then she cuts all the same stapled coupons ONCE and then the whole stapled set is folded to where it fits the baseball card pocket and in a way that she can read the coupon item and dollar value. When you see my pictures it will make more sense......

I'll be right back..... Going to take pic of my coupon folder. :)

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

This is the binder I use - it zips closed so no coupons fall out: I bought mine at Staples.

Here are pictures of my binder. I use the plastic dividers that you can write on with a Sharpie.
Hope this helps.... :)

Thumbnail by Glenda_Michigan
Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

I tried to post just photos but maybe there needs to be text with it for it to post. Let's try it this way....

Thumbnail by Glenda_Michigan
Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

Yep, I think it has to have text with it.... Here's the last one. :)

Thumbnail by Glenda_Michigan
Northeast, AR(Zone 7a)

Oh, I used something similar for my scrapbooking stickers and small die cuts. Those binders and divided page inserts are so nifty! Thanks for that tip!

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

No problem! :) Happy coupon-ing!! ......I'd love to hear how much everyone is saving with their coupons! Post it here whenever you go!! That will be a big source of encouragement to everyone! :-D

Newark, OH(Zone 5b)

Yes, thank you and your daughter for the information.

Our stores only double coupons up to 50 cents.

I would never be able to save anywhere near what some people do on coupons, because of not using many packaged or processed foods. I am trying to watch salt and sugar, and you just can't buy canned soups, frozen dinners, snack foods and lose weight and lower your blood pressure. We had three big packets of coupons in yesterday's paper. I found five coupons. :-(

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

Daylily, yes, that makes it really tough. Everyone now and then I find coupons for oranges, but if you can't eat the items you posted then the pickin' really gets thin. :-( I'm sorry..... If you find coupons somewhere for the things you can eat, please post where you found them ok? Maybe we need to start lobbying healthy product companies to start providing coupons....

Crozet, VA

So glad to find this thread. For several weeks I too have been interested in learning more about couponing. I am a really careful shoppe to begin with, but I too have begun watching the Extreme Couponing shows and want to know more, more, more.

Thank you so much Glenda for opening this topic. Hopefully when I access the links you have provided I will begin to understand how to better my savings at the grocery store.

I think the idea of lobbying fresh fruit and veggie companies is a great idea. I agree that Kroger has lovely produce. Last summer I was able to purchase some of the very finest looking green peppers that I have ever seen for a good cost. I sent hubby to the store several times to get more for me to freeze and have to use this winter in soups and sauces.

I am really looking forward to learning more from you ladies. Just a week or so ago I spent several hours searching for couponing sites and came up with a few duds. I am extremely thankful for the links that have been provided here. i am really excited.


Olympia, WA

30 years ago, my gal pal and I were the consummate coupon/refund queens. The money was incredible. I am no longer doing it, but I remember the glory days. Watched extreme couponing and became exhausted just remembering. Why don't I do it today? I live alone, seldom entertain, and my needs are minimal. The hoarding behavior never really left, so no shelf is empty. My guess is that I STILL have toothpaste and shampoos from back then - though most of the excess was donated when I realized I would not live long enough to use it all. Have fun with it!!!!!!!!!!

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

Daylily & all.... When I saw my daughter today I told her about Daylily's dilemma with processed foods and her health, which is not uncommon. Heather said that for folks who can't or don't want to purchase processed foods, they should concentrate on getting all their toiletries, cleaning supplies, laundry soaps, etc., as cheap or free as possible in their areas.......then......the money they save can help them purchase the healthier items like fruits, vegetables, and meat. I know that up here in MI, at Kroger’s this week, Heather told me that the featured laundry soap (I forget the brand) is FREE this week! No sense paying for it when we can get it for free...

She also said that if you contact the companies that provide the healthier items you CAN eat, tell them that you are interested in trying their products, and ask them if they could send you some coupons for their products, they quite often WILL send you coupons. Also ask them if they know where you can find their coupons on a regular basis. Maybe they have them on their website, in a particular newspaper or magazine, or via a certain coupon website. ....It never hurts to at least ask.

Also, I know that DG is a gardening website, but I don't know if everyone here on this forum are gardeners. If you don't garden, you may want to think about growing your own tomatoes, potatoes, corn, etc. Raised beds, gardening in pots and bags, or turning your city back yard into a garden is always an option to get free, fresh, healthy vegetables and fruits. Anything you grow you don't have to pay $$$ for! ;) .....And if you grow open pollinated seeds, you can save your seeds and never have to buy seeds again! .....If you have enough room, grow extra veggies to sell - which will help you supplement your grocery expenses.
Think out of the box! :)

Ruby do you have something like in your area??? It is wonderful having someone do all the leg work/homework for you! If you're anywhere near a major city there's a good chance someone is doing it. If may want to start your own business! ;) lol

Wannadanc, is it time to climb back up onto the saddle again?? You could probably teach us a thing or two! ;) heehee

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

Correction - Ruby: "If may want to start your own business! ;) lol"

Northeast, AR(Zone 7a)

Great tips again, Glenda. I do grow my own veggies during the warm months, but there's about 6 other months that I have to buy the store-bought stuff. And I'm always disappointed in it. I love salads, but a lot of the food at the store is tasteless and expensive. Tomatoes and peppers cost a small fortune right now.

I make a lot of fruit smoothies, so I'm always buying strawberries during the summer when they're 99 cents a quart or blueberries when they're in season. I can freeze them and use them in the winter months too.

Sadly I spent $188 at Walmart and didn't use one coupon. I just haven't seen coupons for the items I frequently buy. I have written several companies or joined their email lists and do occasionally get coupons from them, but not often enough. I'm like daylily and mostly eat fresh fruits and veggies. I do find coupons for some of the salad mixes, but the stores here don't carry those varieties. I'll have to write some of the companies that Walmart gets produce from and ask about their coupons. There's a great organic lettuce mix that I love. But it's $4.50 for a 10 oz package. They don't use preservatives like most of the salad mixes do, so you get real taste. I'd love coupons for it.

I looked at Savingsmania and while they're not geared towards our area, they do show some coupons and freebies that anyone can get. I need to see if we have anything like that here. Memphis is an hour away, so if we don't have anything in my city, I can check out Memphis. Thanks for the tip too Glenda!


Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

You're welcome; glad to do it! ....Let me know if you have any luck in Memphis! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you! ;)

St. Louis County, MO(Zone 5a)

I would like to put in my 2 cents. Most of the coupon companies require an email address when you sign up, and you will start getting more junk mail even when they say they don't sell your name, somebody will.

My suggestion is to have a 2nd email address. You can make a free one at and then your personal email will remain for your friends and family.

I do this for online ordering, too. No company gets my private email address.

San Antonio, TX(Zone 8b)

Ditto that here, cathy4. I use Google's gmail for my commercial ordering, free samples, contests, anything not needed as clutter in my main correspondence.

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

Great tip Cathy! ....I do the same thing! I have a hotmail account that I use for just that. ....Brilliant minds think alike. ;) lol

Newark, OH(Zone 5b)

When I had to stop working due to health, I had to slash my budget. I was trying to think of all the ways I could to come up with coupons I could use. That is when I found I also found that if I shopped on Friday that my local stores ads were available online for the next week. I could look at the flyer for the week ahead and see if any items I was going to buy were going to be less expensive three days later on Monday.

I went through my cupboards, wrote a list of the brand names of things I use, and went to their websites and signed on to email newsletters and through contact us tabs. I also used an alternate email. I have not found that a lot of them send that many coupons, but some do. I usually buy the stores brand instead of brand names if I don't have a coupon that can be doubled and the item is on sale.

I'm not physically able to do much gardening. I used to!!! I really miss it! I grow a bit of lettuce and a couple tomato plants... but two of my neighbors have big gardens and they bring me fresh eggs and veggies. :-) another one grows fresh flowers and sells to local florists and at the farmers markets. When he has extra, he brings them to me.

I have nice neighbors!

St. Louis County, MO(Zone 5a)

You sure do, Daylily!

Charlevoix, MI(Zone 4b)

I have several friends that do extreme works for them. :) I do not cook like they do and I do not save like they do on FOOD. I don't buy processed foods at all, I only buy fresh dairy, meats, fruits and vegetables (that I can't grow myself). I make most of my own cleaning products, so I don't use coupons for those! About the only thing I use that I could use coupons is toilet paper and female products...

Northeast, AR(Zone 7a)

Glenda, I love I signed up today. What a great site! Lots of info and strategic tips. Thank you!!


Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

You're welcome NancyAnn! That makes my day; I'm glad to know it will be a help to you! :-) .....If I get any more tips and ideas from my daughter, as she continues to learn and discovers more ways and places that help us save money, I'll pass them along to you all. :-)

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

Hi everyone,
This is Heather. I just wanted to let you know that for the best coupons, you will want to get the paper from the Largest metro area around. For us, it's Detroit Free Press...
Also, if you go to
on the first "slide" on the left side it says "download coupon". Click on that. It will print off $1/1 coupon for a Hillshire Farms lunch meat product. It will print 2 of those coupons out. Then hit the backbutton (or go back to the main page) and you can print out another set of 2 coupons. (You can do this with however many computers you have in your house). If your store doubles the $1, you'll get $2 off the lunchmeat! Our Kroger has the .9oz on sale for 2/$6 ($3 each) So, I used my $1 coupon that doubled to $2 and I ended up paying $1 for my lunchmeat! :)

In Michigan, the Purex coupon $1/1 from a couple weeks ago that expires 5/7/11 will get you a free bottle of Purex laundry detergent at Kroger. :) Also, with this weeks Reach Toothbrush coupons, you'll get that toothbrush (single or double pack) for free at Kroger.

I hope this helps some! If you have any questions, let my mom know and I'll get an answer to you as quickly as I can.

Olympia, WA

Here is some important information about the manufacturers reaction to bulk cutting of coupons. Just be aware.

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

Heather was telling me about this savings above so I could pass it on to you all, but I was busy cutting out my own coupons for this week, so I told her to just do it for me. .....I wish I had HER memory; she can keep track of every sale, week to week, where the coupons are, and the best way to get the biggest bang for the buck. She didn't get a memory like that from my side of the family, that's for sure. ;-) LOL
~ Glenda

Fowlerville, MI(Zone 5b)

Thanks Wannadanc! I have sent your link to my daughter for her to read. .....And we just finished cutting out this week's coupons too. Ugh! Makes sense though.... Thanks for posting it!! We will make the needed changes in the way we cut them out! :)

Everglades, FL(Zone 10a)

I knew 3 ladies that went to jail for bulk coupon cutting.

Rose Lodge, OR(Zone 8b)

cyberageous, that's an interesting claim if true (and wildly irresponsible if not). Can you can provide some verifiable information, such as names, court jurisdictions or news stories? Thanks.

I personally could find no evidence of anyone EVER going to jail for gang-cutting coupons, but perhaps you run in some really fast circles! I'm hard-pressed to think of 3 acquaintances, total, who have gone to jail.

Rose Lodge, OR(Zone 8b)

Perhaps you knew counterfeiters, not bulk cutters? There is some precedence for that.

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