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In theory looks like it should work...but does not!

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Ok, so I wanted to feed everything with my manure tea.
My husband says to me there is an easier way then dragging buckets all over.
I'm intrigued and listening...
So he explains that when an IV is placed in someone that the height of the bag allows for the medication to flow into a persons body but not back up into the bag.
OK I say and I am listening still...
We will do this with the sprinkler system and I can get this all done in one easy watering session.
Off he goes...remember his heart is in the right place.
*Poof* after a little drilling noise and filing and what sounds like digging threw parts...In 20 minutes I have a contraption.
A ladder above the pump, with a metal bucket that has a spigot attached is a hose that is attached to the spigot on the pump.

So I test it...first with water...it doesn't work, the pump actually pumps water all the way up to the bucket and fills the bucket instead
of the contents of the bucket being emptied into the hose out to the garden. I haven't had the heart to tell him it doesn't work.
So is there anyone out there who can tell me how to "adjust" this so that it does work?
In theory it looks like it should work but in practice forget it, do I need to put this on the roof?
There is a photo included of the actual contraption, please help me fix this, even if it requires me to place this bucket on the roof.
I hate to tell him I think the hose needs to be attached below the pump so the the pump pulls the tea from the bucket, but I am not going to tear up the pump for this.
Thanks for any help

Thumbnail by FlaFlower
Lewisville, MN(Zone 4a)

The score is you 1, him 0. You don't want to know what my 8th grader grandson said.

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Thanks for the vote

Lucerne Valley, CA(Zone 8a)

He has the right idea... kind of. LOL. I think the sort of thing he's trying for is: http://www.mrdrip.com/fertinjector.htm. It's probably pressurized so that you don't det the backflow, but I have no idea how to make that happen. (And he really should get points for trying to make your life easier! ~.^)

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Desert_witch, thanks and yes, he gets lots of credit for trying to make my life easier.
That's why I haven't told him it doesn't exactly work as intended.
I am off to see the link now, hope it gives me an idea....how to fix it

Lewisville, MN(Zone 4a)

If it is put on the input side of the pump, like you said, it will work. You will have to have it just barely dripping in.

Powder Springs, GA(Zone 7b)

The problem is the pressure of the water from the street or pump is greater than the atmospheric pressure of the bucket. If the pressue was the same then it would work since the bucket is at a greater height (gravity fed system). The injection system is the way to go as pointed out by desert_witch.

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Ok well I can't change the atmospheric pressure of the bucket, but I also can't see my way clear to spend $100.00 on what desert_witch found which is probably what I need...
So how do I make one of those?
I would like to do what I thought and what countrygardens said but I refuse to start tearing into my pump plumbing, it's just not an option...
I should probably give up since I already have the chore done...but eventually he is going to ask me about it...Uggg :-(
He meant well and his heart was in the right place!...But the engineering?

Durhamville, NY(Zone 5b)

First IV's are inserted in veins so they are on the suction side of the heart. If your water pressure is 40 psi then the bucket would have to be 100 foot high to work.

The fertilizer thing is a combination of a waterline to pressure the container and a venturi to create a lower pressure area to suck the solution into the line. Most likely I could build one out of a bunch of plumbing fittings and an old propane cylinder.

I question wanting to contaminate all my hose with fertilizer or manure tea. What are you going to use to wash the dog, or car or fill the kids pool?

I'd put a tank on a little wagon and then I could pull it around either by hand or with the riding lawnmower or garden tractor.

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

Drip Works' least expensive fertilizer injector is still around $80.

Miracle Gro sells a hand-held sprayer with a container that can take garden hose pressures. Around one quart? The idea seems to be that you put a cup or two of Miracle Gro powder into the container and then screw down the sprayer before much dissolves.

As you spray, I guess they expect the powder to dissolve gradually, mix, and be diluted fairly evenly. The hose forces water into the container and back out the spray head. For your system to work the same way, the bucket would have to be fully pressurized.

I suppose you can see the color of the liquid in the container,, and whether the solids are still there or are dissolving instantly. It seems guaranteed to burn leaves, to me!

Maybe it has some cheap Venturi valve so that it only draws up a little of the dissolved solution to be added to the hose stream at a time. Maybe even if the fertilizer had saturated the solution, that would not burn leaves ... much.

That kind of Venturi valve (and that might be the wrong name - I think it works by the Bernouli Principle) works like a perfume atomizer. Air rushes past a narrow oriface. The reduced pressure caused by rapid flow sucks a little perfume up and distributes it into the air flows.

I think a fertilizer injector works by rushing water past some kind of oriface or slanted tube or needle, sucking some concentrated liquid out of the tube and distributing it itno the irrigation water. But the concentrated liquid has to be at the same or higher pressure as the flowing water. Otherwise the water will flow "backwards" into the concentrated bucket, as you saw.

The following is just pure speculation.

MAYBE a mechanical enigneer could precisly position a thin metal tube or hollow needle in the rapidly-flowing spray, AFTER the 30 PSI water pressure had been dispersed into the atmosphere. Like, by welding it to the sprayer head!

The hollow needle would slant with the direction of flow of air and water spray, so that a little suction would pull a little fertilizer UP through the needle and into the spray.

But the suction probably would not lift fertilizer far enoguh.

Instead mount the fertilizer bucket on a backpack and run tubing DOWN to the needle, so you could position it OVER the sprayhead and let gravity assist Rube Goldberg.


My idea is that the air pressure in the spray stream is no more than atmospheric, instead of 30 PSI. Then, either Bernouli suction or gravity might feed liquid into the spray at a SOMEWHAT controllable rate.

Or I'm just crazy - ignore me.


Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

It occurred to me that the sealed-jug soluble fertilizer sprayer from Miracle gro doesn't need to use a Venturi or cyclone method: the stream of water that sprays out the nozzle might be partly diverted to pressurize the jug higher than the water stream: like by a water ram or diverter valve.

Then the water in the jug could come out very fast if wanted.

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Now there is a thought? Let me ponder that and see if I can get that to work? Some how??? I still haven't told him it doesn't work and there it sits.
Thanks

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

The problem I see no good answer for is that it would need some bucket or jug you could seal tight, with a hose inlet and a hose outlet, that could take 30-40 psi, whatever your water pressure is.

Maybe seal some hose fittings into a really thick length of PVC pipe with endcaps - like 4" diameter or 6" diameter.

Then it occured to me that I was thinking of something like a pipe bomb and reconsidered.


ESPECIALLY avoid buying parts for a 6" diameter pipe bomb, then asking the clerk for a 50# bag of ammonium nitrate! Remember Oklahoma City.




This message was edited Jun 14, 2012 7:03 PM

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Yea I will take those items out of my shopping list and consider a 5 gallon bucket with a rubber sealed lid...have one of those here somewhere.
Lots of PVC in small diamaters, doubt all natural watered down poop has much in the way of ammoinia nitrates in it, so I think I am out of the way of the TSA, TFA or any of those other agencies that can make ones life a bit sticky...I just was to feed the garden.
The only blast I want to see is a growth and color blast...it's a quite kind a thing, a bit like watching clouds move by (no lightning)

Ok, let me see if I can squeeze that into my to-do list tomorrow, first I have to find the bucket...Uggg

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

Heyh, a bucket with clamps or a sturdy screw-lid makes this kind of practical, maybe!

I forgot you were thinking of a natural fertilizer. So your spray head should have a fairly big oriface or a way to poke it clean.

I won der if there might bed some varient possible on an old-timey fire department heaved-ho pujmp engine? Like a manual water pump forcing compost tea through big pipes down to a garden hose type sprayer? But it mkight need two people: one pump;iong and one spraying.

Or ... waitta minute ...

old washing machine or dishwasher from the dump
remove the electric motor and water pump and hose fittings
attach garden hose with sprayhead to the pump's outlet hose
stick inlet hose into 5 gallon bucket or 20 gallon trough of poop solution
apply 120 V olts to the pump motor
see if you have enough pressure and volume to spray instead of spurt
nothing need be pressure tight except a few hose clamps: no "poop bomb" unless a hose clamp slips

I'm sorry that the "practical" soultion is usually the LAST thing to occur to me.

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Ok Rick...
I am working on that project now.
I have started out with a clean bucket with a rubber seal where the pour spout has not been compromised, it is still sealed and is all plastic so I don't have any worries about rusting...I am thinking I need a screen at the bottom.
I will get back to you.

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Ok, so I got it all together and I turned the pump on, and all was going well I was watching water just starting to come out of the huge rainbird sprinkler real well out front when I heard "POP!!" (NOT BOOM-Rick) The top had popped off, so I thought OK? I will try it with both big huge rain birds on and reduce the pressure threw one hose, nope that didn't work either, good thing I tried it first with just water.
So now I got the big part done, I know it can work, now to figure out how to keep the top from popping and keeping my pressure too...I might need to find a container with a good deep screw lid, the whole thing so far has cost me less than $3.00 and I can reuse those parts if need be for another container.

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

COOL! Congratulations!

And I'm really glad it was only "POP" and not "BOOM" or "ZOOM".

Is there any way to throttle the pump? I've seen things at work where a big pump tyhrew a huge volume of water around a loop. recyling it in to a buig tank, while a little valve took off just a little pressure and volume to where it was needed. Inefficinet, but it let a big pump do a small pump's job.

You are pumping water and pressure INTO the bocket? (Excuse me, "bucket", not "rocket".)
And from there under pressure to the sprinklers?
So the concentrate in the bucket gradually becomes more dilute?

Since you have a pump set up, maybe it would be possible to reverse that (maybe with an even bigger bucket) and put the pump's suction line into the (open) bucket. Like, use the bucket with the top off.

Try to simultaneoisuly:
- stir the bucket vigorously and
- continually run a water hose to fill the bucket,
- while shoveling more fertilizer into the bucket,
- while running the pump to pull OUT of the bucket,
so only the line from the pump to the sprinkler is pressurized?

Buit if it is not a 'pump', and is only pressurized water from a hose, that would not be possible. Or if you don't wnat to contaminate the pump.

P.S. if you build up enough back pressure after clamping the bucket down, think about the possibility of backflow into your water system through the pump if it shuts down while the buc ket is bulging. Compost slurry?


>> the whole thing so far has cost me less than $3.00 and I can reuse those parts

This makes it "genius" and "sustainable" and "permaculture" and mainly ... COOL!




Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Yea some how need to regulate the pressure, have other more pressing things to tend to at the moment so it will have to wait...I'll be back at it shortly and let you know. on the screen I had put a lump of old cow poo chip and was hoping that would disinigrate as the water went by it and disperse it threw the garden, that was the thought and the theory anyway

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

Hmm, if the "recycle the pump's output" turns out to be a practical way to reduce the final oulet pressure, you could aim the backflopw iknto wshatever holds the cows poo. The swirling should stir the poo.

If the pujmp sucks chunks in, it will spew fine slurry out!


>> have other more pressing things to tend to at the moment

Sigh, I know the feeling! I only just now got mty "Spring" seeds in. Well, it has been a very cold summer so far.


Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

How are those salvias doing I sent you?

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

Two died and the white one has a lot of bugs on it (whiteflies)? There is webbing if I don't spray fairly often.

But that's much betterf than the dozens I hoped would overwinter or re-seed. None came back except for two, and the new neighbor made me remove the bed they were in. Sol now those two are in pots (just a few leaves each).

So I'm doing better with salvia than with penstemon! But not by much.

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Wow and they were well rooted plants too!

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

Yes, they clearly had well-established roots. Did you do "air layering" on them?

I've knocked bac the (?) aphids or whiteflies on the white Salvia and I'm ready to up-pot it.

I'm really glad now that I didn't put it into the bed I had been considering: the neighbor made me remvoe that bed and pull all the perennials into pots (I had no otyher soil ready, no bed space).

Better a series of pots than in and out of the ground!

Remember all the Salvia varieties I hoped to collect seeds from, without cross-polination? All dead except two
- S. transylvanica - 'Blue Spires'

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

No airlayering, just cuttings with my personal combination of ick that almost gets everything to root the first time.
I am pretty sure they didn't come to you months back with all those vermin? On occassion I have a few white flies and the aphids here only seem to be attracted to the milkweeds, I just spray with soapy water, wait, then rinse, since I have pets we don't use chemicals. We are confined to vinegar, veggy oil, peroxide and soapy water.
I don't think I have either one of those varieties...I'll look
I got a bonus pack of seeds (consisted of 5 seeds) in an order and they say Salvia lavandiloides (I can't find it...LOL) but none the less you can never trust what it was pollinated with...I'll toss them in the garden and see what pops up...probably a weed (joking)
Ok have a good one, have weeds to yank inbetween Tropical storm Debbies down pours and picking up all the stuff she knocks out of the trees

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

>> I am pretty sure they didn't come to you months back with all those vermin?

No no no! They all looked OK for weeks, then two went downhill gradually and my whole indoor shelf got buggy. I'm sure it spread to them. not from them.

>> probably a weed (joking)

I had to bring some very-slow-growing Penstemon inside. Just two pots out of 8-10 started growing really fast. The leaves did not look quite right, and then when they bloomed, I became sure that the fast-growing ones were WEEDS that had snuck into the pots. Sigh.

Annuals seem much easier than perennials, to get started!

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

My salvias here grow like weeds I have to keep hacking them back so they don't crowd out other stuff but I like them they bloom all year here. I started weeding then came across one of these spiders we have called "giant crab spider" huge nasty looking things, that was the end of my weeding, even after I killed the huge nasty thing (I have spider issues) "look them up" they really are gross, say they aren't venomous but who is counting when something that big bites you?

I just completely flip out, I mean nuts flip out if one gets in the house...I don't care where John is HE NEEDS TO COME HOME AND PLAY HERO NOW. Mean while my skin is crawling, I get a strange lip jerk/twitch, can't sit still...you should have seen me the day I opened the front door and one must have been in the door frame and it fell on me...OMG, someone should have just called the psyc ward for me and reserve a rubber room I was balistic for a couple of hours...john came out and squashed it and said like it was nothing "Yea that was a big one" spit, puke, ralph, the thought still creeps me out...nothing else bothers me, snake, rats, bats, roaches don't get me wrong I don't want to snuggle with them but they aren't a freaking giant crab spider...there aggressive and will chase you, so if there size isn't enough to flip you out that's a bonus.
One chased me across the drive way one day...I thought John would pass out laughing at me as he watched me in horror running from this thing running popping and jumping at me running backwards away from it, it stopped in the grass John got a brick and squashed it.
At this point I am not real sure if I should scream at him for watching me in horror or if I should hug him as my hero...it was a hard choice...I said "thank you" anywway that was the end of my weeding today all of 10 minutes.

We have all grown successfully weeds, I thought I had something growing in pots (agastache?), they bloomed and it happened to be an invasive mint that grows around here instead...hoped it enjoyed the extra attention before it's execution!!

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

>> At this point I am not real sure if I should scream at him for watching me in horror or if I should hug him as my hero...

I had to laugh ... we men ARE difficult, aren't we? I hope he appreciates his continued existence.

I don't like spiders either, but the biggest I've ever seen was around 3-4 inches and didn't come close.

Once I was out hiking and sat for a while on a steep slope. This little tiny spider barely large enoguh to see (though he must have been a ferocious hunter for his size) jumped up onto the front of my jacket and fumbled around.

I guess he was trying to wrestle me to the ground so he could drag me home to the wife and kid spiders. And brag to the other guy spiders at the local spider bar.

I blew him off with a puff of breath and was glad he was a small one.

I guess he WAS a ferocious and resourcefull hunter! He must have circled around me to get uphill, so he could LEAP DOWN on me and maybe knock me down with that advantage. I heard a little "ping" as he came down on my shoulder and knew that he must be distantly related to Tyranosaurus Rex on one side, even if his other 15 great-grandparents were all fleas.

Well, that time, I flicked him away as far as I could and got the heck away from THAT hillside before he called in his older brothers!

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Yea those jumping spiders have an attitude all there own, like mini bulldogs for there size.
Good thing all you got was the search party and not the tribe...LOL
Ok, off to give the fur babie his meds, they still haven't figured out what his issue is yet....very frustrating!
So we keep throwing a bucket full of meds at him hoping something works, crazy blood work, crazy meds.
He appears to feel better today

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

Good luck with your fur baby.

Rawalpindi, Pakistan(Zone 9a)

Hi. The bucket is fixed to the delivery of the pump. Take the pump out of the circuit and lay a different line from pump to bucket. Then the system will work.

Westbrook, CT(Zone 6a)

KAM has the right idea, but it might be easier to put in a Y-valve (usually available with hose connectors in stores) so you could switch the line going to the plants from pump to bucket feed.

With the bucket permanently attached as it is now, the pump will push water up into the bucket until the weight of the tall column of water (plus atmospheric pressure) balances the pump pressure (or overflows the bucket if it is not high enough). When the pump shuts off, the bucket contents should drain into the irrigation system like hubby says.

Hopefully your manure tea has been strained so it does not contain any solid matter that will clog your irrigation system.

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

I've seen some "siphon systems" ranging in price from $18 up to hundreds.

I also saw a plan in an old gardening book from the 1940's and 1950's that showed a simple Tee junction where a garden hose shot straight through the cross stroke, and the "T" part had a smaller tube going down into a bucket of manure tea.

Apparantly, if the inside diameter of the Tee is bigger than the hose, there's no back pressure to send water down into the bucket. Instead, Bernouli or Venturi or whatever effect must create enoguh sucketion to pull liquid up from an unpressurizsed bucket. I'm not sure why that works, but this book was very practuical and I trust the author not to propagate myths.

The Complete Book of Garden Magic
Roy Edwin Biles
http://www.amazon.com/The-complete-book-garden-magic/dp/B0007EFN1A
$4

Rawalpindi, Pakistan(Zone 9a)


Venturi system for injecting something like fertiliser into water and Venturi system to pump out water are two different things but a bit off topic. Your problem is different. DonShirer has cleared it by taking into consideration what is available in your area(market) and he has elucidated very well as to the why.
Regards.

Trumbull, CT(Zone 7a)

Is this the sort of thing you are looking for?
http://rosemania.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product119.html

http://www.ezfloinjection.com/1-6.asp

I'd look into how it works or find a home made version.

This message was edited Aug 4, 2012 11:08 PM

Everett, WA(Zone 8a)

Yes, exactly, or:

http://hozon.com/

Trumbull, CT(Zone 7a)

That looks perfect, and the price is reasonable.

Titusville, FL(Zone 9b)

Let me at least since I can't physically mark it closed, say it is "CLOSED" for Kayjones.
Happy Jo?

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