Equilibrium and I were having a small discussion in another thread in regards to the spread of Drosera anglica - English Sundew. I'm copying some of the conversation and information Equilibrium found to here because I think it's interesting.
Equilibrium - "Say Baa, "Perhaps it blew in with other settlers early in our recent history ;)"... I don't think so. I think it was there long before they came. Tens of thousands of years before the Druids even. What perplexes me is that one of the parents would have been D. linearis. Now figure that one out. That's what blows my mind. D. anglica is a naturally occurring hybrid. In the British Isles, as well as in Hawaii where it is also indigenous, there is no rhyme or reason as to why it should be there happy as a clam. Now there is a sterile cross out there that one can create on their own by pollinating but that's not the D. anglica you've got over in your neck of the woods. One of these days I'll ask some folk who might know the answer about how that species ended up in the British Isles as well as in Hawaii. I'm most curious."
Baa - Equilibrium, are we talking D. anglica or D. x anglica, since D. linearis isn't a native species that the D. anglica that occurs here should be the species rather than the hybrid. Or do you have any further info?
Equilibrium - That's what I meant. D. linearis doesn't and hasn't ever occurred in the British Isles yet you have the naturally occurring hybrid of anglica that isn't sterile. D. x anglica from seed is an infertile hybrid, at least that was my understanding I have no idea how the D. anglica ended up over by you but it is most certainly there and has been for a very long time. I'll poke around and see what I can find out. I've never looked into this before. Continental Drift?
Equilibrium - Hi Baa, Looks as if somebody else had the same questions as me. I just pulled this up from the Internet on my first try-
"Drosera anglica is indeed a species, but as with many other true species, it's origin was a result of hybridization. In this case D. linearis and D. rotundifolia were the parents where they naturally occurr within the same area. These species are said to be sympatric.
Hybrids are known amongst the temperate species, but such hybrids are typically sterile. This is because their randomly distributed chromosomes do not line up properly, and the result is defective sperm and eggs. However, in certain very rare instances, all the genetic material gets included in one daughter cell by accident during the process of meiosis (cell division): one cell has no material, the other has a full set of chromosomes, and is then fertile. Chromosomes can also line up properly through sheer "luck of the draw" and the result is the same. Such cells have double the original chromosome count, and when these cells divide, each cell has a full set of chromosomes, and in turn are fertile. This happened in the far distant past with our fertile D. anglica. Chromosome counts show 2N=20 for the respective parents, but in D. anglica they are double that: 2N=40. There are also sterile hybrids to be found in these habitats which were not so "lucky". This proscess is assumed to have happened in many parts of the range of D. anglica at many different points in time, and the process continues today where the species are sympatric.
The plant Ivan produced produced by crossing D. linearis with D. rotundifolia would normally have produced sterile seed, because the plant would not have a full set of chromosomes. When he treated the plant with colchicine, the chemical prevented the formation of the spindle fibers that draw the chromosomes apart during one phase of meiosis, so one cell got none, and the other got a full set of chromosomes. This is known as amphiploidy, and is one of the most important mechanisms by which new species are formed. Sterile D. anglica is known as D. x anglica, and it's chromosome count is 2N=20.
I call it prehistoric, because the form of this plant is similar to the very first fertile D. anglica plants! Evolutionary pressures have not streamlined its form as they have with modern day D. anglica which is both taller and has narrower lamina. Evolution works by natural selection: survival of the fittest. Those traits which lead to species survival get passed on to later generations. In this case, I speculate that the wider lamina of these plants created competition amongst themselves for prey and sunlight. The broad leaves would be more likely to overlap, restricting prey capture. Taller plants with more narrow lamina were able to lift above the crowd. They captured more prey, and had more access to sunlight. They were therefore, better able to thrive, reproduce, and pass these characteristics on to their offspring. After countless generations, they became more numerous, and the less successful broader leaved forms were out competed: their form was lost as a result, and this is why our present day D. anglica is much different looking than this plant. The final stage in speciation is reached when the new hybrids can no longer cross back with their progenitors, but it is likely that amphiploidy is responsible for the creation of many of the forms we regard as "true" species."
And this written by the same person-
"I guess that we will never know how extensive the sympatric D. linearis or D. rotundifolia really were, since Fernando wasn't around back then. Probably the range was much greater "back then" though and what we see now are relic populations. It's more likely that the plant arose in different parts of the world through isolated examples of amphiploidy in different geographical locations, then to assume it radiated through migratory or aqueous transportation.
As to being the most rare Drosera in the world, you got me! You're correct that any new hybrid would also have to be considered the most rare plant in the world, but only if the grower had just one remaining plant ;-) and this means that neither may be called by that adjective. So, henceforth, I will ammend my writing to refer to it as "POSSIBLY the most rare Drosera on Earth". Fair enough?
Another loophole is that allopolyploidy in the sympatric range of D. rotundifolia and D. linearis is actually an ongoing process (Schnell, 1989). There is therefore the possibility that the "prehistoric" event may have repeated itself just yesterday somewhere in the range, or just recently in the past. If this were so, then one would expect to find intermediate forms within the population range that demonstrated this primitive form. This is indeed the case: Schnell reported finding these broad leaved forms in his field studies.
Nope. You're not bothering me. What good is having answers if no one asks any questions?"
Then came this from somebody else-
"I wonder if back when sundews were first created if there was just 1 primitave sundew species and through natural selection became all the species and forms you find today,including the vft."
The response from the other person was this-
"There is an entire branch of plant science that also asks the same questions! In essence, this is what taxonomy and the related study of phyllogeny is about. It's a difficult question due to the length of time we are talking about: speciation is a process spanning millions of years. Fossil evidence is poor, and doesn't help much in answering this question, although recent advances in genetics makes it possible to gain some insight by comparing specific presence or absence of gene markers. Some questions will probably remain unanswered, such as did these species originate in one place in the world, or in multiple places at different times as a result of similar evolutionary mechanisms within specific plant families? If Drosera have a common ancestor, it is likely that such originated in Africa or Australia, and probably back when those continents were united. I believe that D. regia is the most "primitive" form within the genus although there are other primitive types as well in other continents: e.g. Drosera meristocaulis in Brasil. Other species like D. anglica and D. nidiformis are relative "newbies"."
Then a third person comes in and offers this-
"...However, you are very correct that speciation can occur quickly. In plants more so than in animals. This is because as soon as a plant's chromosome number increases evenly by poliploidation (is that a word?) or by single chromosomes doubling up, it is instantly a new species. You can start with a hybrid, or you can have a single species just double up. However, the new species may not be very different from the parent plant/plants. Usually polyploidy are bigger, and that’s about it. However, the sudden level of redundant data means mutations that would normally be lethal are compensated for thus leaving the DNA open for more change. DNA mutation occurs at a steady rate, but the number of non-lethal mutations will greatly increase meaning natural selection has more material to work with. Eventually, you can get the extra genes so distorted they won't recognize the original cross’s chromosomes. This means you have a population that has completely separated from the parent plants and no new accidents are going to make a new member of this species because they can't interbreed. Does that make sence?
Now here is how you get slower speciation. Same thing is happening, but remember these plants are all still very similar looking. It take several "technically" new species to show up before you can compare the end product back to the original and say, those are different plants at a glance. The more diverse the range of appearances, the further away from each other the groups have gone. Eventually transitional species die out and what you have left are a bunch of different but related species. AKA, what I believe Tamlin was referring to was the processes of creating dramatically different species adapted to a range of habitats with highly unique genes in addition to common roots way way way back.
Evolution can be fast, but the evolution of one part of a population while another stays the same or takes a different root is very slow.
Long term species diversity
Evolution of a species (This is your Domestic Dog, their genetic sequence is relatively unaltered, it is only the alleles that have changed. K9’s happen to have an incredibly adaptive set of DNA which is why so many phenotypes have arisen both in domestic and wild types. AKA they don’t NEED to become a new species to adapt to new environments… same for small cats. Gene Example: 1 gene determines snout shape and length in dogs. It’s an on-off switch that is timer based. The sooner it is turned off, the shorter and blockier the snout, the longer is it left on the longer and skinner and pointier the snout. 1 gene, big difference! This is also our variants of plants, a white vs. pink flower, fat vs. thin leaves etc.)
And then the original person comes back in and offers this-
"A very nice breakdown on the mechanics of speciation Darcie.
FYI "poliploidation" would be an incorrect term best covered by the use of "polyploidy" I think. Man, it's been quite a refresher course on genetics lately for me, lol.
Yes, genetic drift is a consequence of isolation. This is a very important consideration in speciation, but it is not until competition and natural selection operates on the new isolated populations that a final form becomes stable. Once the filial generations cannot recross back with the parent generation, species seggregation becomes much more definitive.
Despite the popularity of the X-men movies, mutation does not immediately grant species consideration, although it is an integral part of the process. A lot happens in 80 million years or so!"
All of this and my poor brain cells are now on circuitry overload. I think I need to digest what I found because I still don't fully grasp how it is that D. anglica ended up in the British Isles or in Hawaii. It's looking as if these people are favoring Continental Drift though. I'd still be open to some sort of aqueous transportation. For what it is worth, I recognized the writing style of one of those people and I will contact him direct in the next few weeks.
Carnivourous Plants - Drosera Anglica
Thanks a lot for posting this, it was very interesting (though honestly I have no clue what the plant you're talking about is, I'll have to look it up). A lot of the books I've been reading deal with native gardens or permaculture gardens (related but very different gardens) and one of the things that is mentioned in both type of books is that getting plants that are native (or have been introduced for awhile in the case of permaculture) from plants that are local (i.e. a plant that is native to the all of the US, getting a specific plant was raised in your local ecosystem, and preferably it's parents etc.) is always a good idea, because there can be extreme differences in temperature tolerance, specific bug resistance, water needs, etc. even in to plants that look identical due to their split heritage and local plants will adapt better to your area, resist local bugs and disease, and bring less new bugs and disease into the area than the same plant from the opposite coast. In some cases we're talking plants that have had a documented history on this continent (so 300 years at most). I find that interesting. Hope you do too.
You need to add some information (and pictures) to the plantfiles.
Well, what you are actually referring to would be local genotype. Local genotype is always best in my opinion.
Zhinu, right now my D. anglica is preparing itself to go dormant. The genotype of my plant is from North America, specifically Kasiloff AK. I can take a photo for you but it won't be all that interesting. I have a northern race for lack of a better way to describe it to you and Baa has a more "southern" race given the D. anglica are also indigenous to the British Isles where she lives. Regardless, mine is going to be down to hibernacula real soon and there won't be much of anything to see. My D. linearis, Pinguicula vulgaris, and P. villosa are already down to hibernacula. The formation of hibernacula is how some of these temperate species survive through the winter. I'll get you a photo but it won't be much to look at right now. Those plants are at their best in late spring in the wild and in cultivation.
For the time being, you can get an idea of what D. anglica looks like by typing Drosera anglica into your search engine. Instead of a web search, do an image search and a few decent photos will come up.
Yeah I did that, but I looked at Plantfiles first, and there isn't much there at all. I knew there was a word for what I was talking about but it's 5 am here and it's been a hard day, I couldn't think of it.
I do need to clarify something for you, regarding nativity... the generally accepted time line for here in the United States would be flora and fauna that would have been present [B]before[/B] the colonists came to The New World.
Here are a few photos of one D. anglica that was in a warmer location that hasn't totally reduced itself to hibernacula as of yet. Not the greatest photo in the world but you can get an idea for its size as that is 4" pot recessed in a bog.
Oops, I just checked the PlantFiles. My image isn't showing up yet. Sorry about that zhinu. I did post a load a better photo but they must be backed up reviewing submissions. Give it a few days and a new image to Drosera anglica will show in the PlantFiles.
no problem, I got the idea from the one you put on here. I'll check back in the next couple days, you did add info to the page though, correct?
zhinu, I have not added comments to that plant. Some of the details were set by another member and I can't correct them.
As far as adding comments to this particular plant file entry, D. anglica is going to be one of the trickiest plants to add comments to. The D. anglica that grows in Hawaii is really D. anglica but so is the D. anglica that grows in Alaska. Each plant evolved differently over tens of thousands of years and each "race" has very specific cultural requirements that must be met or the plant will not live. Maybe this winter when I have two hours or so to write something up I will add an appropriate comment but not now.
What I can tell you is that you will have difficulty attempting to grow this particular plant regardless of which race you have. There are a few D. anglica out there. I have the northern race. I am in zone 5 and that's already pushing the zone for this species which is why I have one in the refrigerator right now. They require a very long dormancy, 6 months minimum. I feel relatively confident that you will not be in a position to meet its dormancy requirements in zone 7, I don't even know if I can yet. I do have an entire refrigerator in my garage just for germinating seed and providing dormancies for particular plants. I've got enough space in there to place entire plants, pots and all, right on a shelf. I suspect my D. anglica is going to need more than just refrigeration so its going back outside as soon as freezing temps and snows hit my area. I could probably meet the cultural requirements of the southern race anglica but I don't want to as I'd have to grow it indoors year round. If you had the southern race D. anglica, you would also have difficulty growing it because you are a tad too cold for that one like me. D. anglica is going to be a toughie for you because of your zone and because there are these darn southern and northern races out there and most people don't know which they have. Mine is from Kasilof AK so that's a northern race. I hate using the term "race" in this particular situation but I see no way around it given we are discussing D. anglica.
Really sorry but I haven't been growing this plant long enough to know if I can get it to live over the long haul and I'm sort of beginning to suspect the northern race is not a beginners plant unless... one lives in Alaska and can grow it outside year round.
I wasn't considering growing one, I had already realized it wasn't the plant for me. But, I would have sworn that the first time I looked there was next to no information, then it was basically full. I just want to see as much accurate information on plants available as possible.
Well zhinu, looks as if it is you and me up in the middle of the night. Glad there's somebody up aside from me. That is the last time I will take an allergy tablet at dinner time. I think I almost dozed off and did a face plant in my food. By the time I finished eating, I could hardly keep my eyes open. I fell asleep shortly after dinner and here I am totally awake and not capable of going back to sleep since 3:30am. Thanks for keeping me company.
Accurate information, eh? I've been on a quest for that for years. What works for me may not work for you. To each situation is brough a new set of variables. I have gotten help from experts and what worked for them didn't work for me. I guess what I am saying is that my information may be accurate for my growing conditions just as information provided to me was accurate for someone else's growing conditions so accuracy is often based on personal experiences. I've found it best to stick to plants that are indigenous to North American and I refer to sources that describe the plant's natural habitat. Recreating those conditions generally ensures success to one degree or another. Selecting a plant that is native to where I live increases the odds of success ten fold. This is probably the main reason why I won't grow or even attempt to grow lowland Nepenthes. I could not possibly create an environment conducive to their survival without incurring a horrific Visa bill (husband would not be happy) yet there are people who grow these plants outside year round and have plants that look as if they could digest the neighbor's cat. You should see some of the pitcher sizes on some Neps. Really makes you wonder when the neighbor's tea cup poodle comes up mysteriously missing!
And check this out-
There are considerably bigger pitchers out there. I just couldn't find any photos to post a url to.
I'm a night person, on vacation, and I've been having to take allergy pills (in this case the same medication as sleep aids) at night to get to sleep (mild insomnia) so I've been putting it off trying to get tired. Did you take Diphenhydramine Hydrochloride (Benadryl) that's what I take to kick me over to sleep, it's a mild sleep aid, that isn't addictive, and has the bonus of helping with my allergies, and can be taken with as little as maybe 5 hours before you have to get up, it only lasts 4 hours. Too bad DG doesn't have chat on Monday mornings.
I'm aware of the problems with taking advice for one area and trying to use it in another. I'm just talking the basic stuff, I'm making a excel list of plants I'm interested in, to help me decide what to actually get. It includes Common Names, Latin Name, Picture, Max height, temperature it starts to run into problems at low (but as you mentioned high might also be a factor), Light preference, Soil pH preferred, Water requirements, Propagation type, and notes (which I would like to include and may make into separate columns Poisonous to us/cats/dogs? Edible? Specifics for propagation, and any specific weirdness dealing with the plant). I don't think I have all of these for any plant yet.
I'm looking at really four types of plant books: native to the NW, permaculture, edible, and container. I'm going to make something a bit a long the lines of a permaculture garden, but on my patio, in containers, and only covering a small bit of what permaculture really entails, but with that philosophy in mind.
I've killed all the carnivorous plants I've had, and they seem more like pets (goldfish maybe), so until I can figure out exactly what I need to do to keep one alive I'm not getting anymore. Those are big ones though, I've never seen a pitcher that was bigger then a human hand personally. I think they could eat small mammals.
Yup, I took a Benadryl. Like I said, I won't do that again. I was up for three hours in the middle of the night thanks to having fallen asleep after dinner. Then I went back to sleep for a few hours so I could function today.
FYI- I've killed my fair share of carnivorous plants too. We all have. It's part of the process.
I'd love to learn how to use Excel. Maybe one of these days I'll get a friend to sit down and show me how.
If you're like me Benadryl allergy should only be taken when you are willing to go to sleep. Chlorpheniramine Maleate works all right for me as a non-drowsy allergy pill, and the sinus part of Benadryl is sold on it's own and doesn't put me to sleep. This should be normal, but I am a space mutant when it comes to medicine effects.
What I do on excel is pretty simple. I just make the blanks the right size, fill in blank, insert picture, and sort. Do you have the excel program? If you do, I could upload what I have and send you the address so you can take a look.
My problem is that I avoid taking prescriptions unless I am really in need. I probably haven't taken a Benadryl in a year. My husband thinks I am a doofus for choosing to be miserable and yesterday after I sneezed the one hundreth time and had eyes that looked as if I was a poofer fish and little hives up adn down my arms from pulling weeds, he told me to take something or he'd slip it in my pepsi. I did. Oh well. When one is dumb, one pays.
I have excell. I wouldn't know how to make the blanks though. Filling them in would be an additional challenge. Are we talking point and click here and then just type what I want to add notes about the plants? Please realize I am one of those people who is really really really computer challenged. I just learned how to cut and paste last year. That was a nice trick.
It's all of what I do on excel is point and click of one form or another. There is a lot more you can do with it, but I've never learned. Here is the address http://academic.evergreen.edu/s/stelau06/other/ assuming you use windows you should be able to just right click on "plant list wo pictures" (the one with pictures I didn't want to post due to copyrights on the pictures) go down to save target as, save somewhere you'll be able to find it, then open excel, click open file, and find the file where you saved it.
I use windows. Let me play with this for a bit. Thank you! I have no idea what to do with it but my girlfriend knows how to use it and she's coming over next weekend again. What I would like to do would be to list my plants and list location data as well as the source. I would be happy if I could do that. Well, the year purchased or acquired would be nice too.
I have some chores I need to catch up on right now, but I might be able to set up something for you.
Oh my gosh, I should have never thought out loud. Please don't do any work on Excel. I really do have a girlfriend who knows Excel. I am sure she can teach me how to use it enough to get the boxes to be able to fill them with notes. I am very thankful for your offer. That was very kind. Again, I thank you. Lauren
Look what I found-
This would be the Drosera anglica that is northern race. The seller of the seed provides very nice details as well as quality growing instructions. I was quite surprised to see his/her comments. I bought a pack of seeds. What the heck. No time like the present to try a few.
What you're looking for really would only take me about 5 min. to set up and I would be happy to do so. But, there is something to be said for someone setting it up in front of you, so... let me know if you need any help, I really don't mind.
You are too sweet. Lemme see how far I can get with my girlfriend. If she doesn't get too frustrated with me, I should be some semblance of ok.
Just checked in on this thread and flashed WAY back to undergrad! I feel like I'm swimming with the intellectuals now! LOL And its bloody great! I'm going to learn a lot on this forum! Hurray for braincells!
Anyway, what I wanted to add to this has nothing to do with plants, except tangentially. It has to do with insomnia. If you have insomnia, you should consider trying 5-htp (the college name for that is 5-hydroxytryptophan). This amino acid comes from an african bean root , the name of which escapes me. But it's the direct precursor to the manufacture of serotonin, the neurotransmitter (one of them) the influences things like mood, hunger, and ability to sleep. Since it is not a drug, you don't have to worry about overdosing on it, and you'll know the first or second night whether it will help. I take 300mg a night during the winter, and 200mg during the summer. You have to experiment to find the right dosage. I started with one capsule and then added another. I'm not a physician, I'm a psychotherapist, but I have about 12 clients right now who take this and all of them are not only sleeping better, but their anxiety and/or depression is better. Do a google search and you'll get plenty of info. As you've determined, benadryl puts some people to sleep directly, and others get wired by it. Also, it stays around in your bloodstream and can make some people groggy in the am.
Okay, I'm off my soapbox now, but in my book sleep deprivation is the number one mental health issue in our country. May you sleep like a baby with a full, warm tummy!
Brain cells? I've none left this evening... er uh this morning... I was out whacking weeds again today (actually yesterday as today is now Monday) in and amongst fields of ragweed and grasses. I took another bloody Benadryl because I had so many hives I felt as if I was going to claw my body apart. I lasted at least an hour after dinner before I went down for the count. Here I am, again and it's pushing 2 am. This gardening is really hazardous to one's body I tell you and I'm not an anxious or depressed person in the least!
Seriously, I'm not an insomniac. Normally I go to bed and sleep perfectly fine without waking until the next morning. I do have this hand to mouth problem though. I see food, I put it in my mouth and eat until I feel like I am going to explode. Normally, eating makes me a little sleepy for a bit but that only lasts about a half hour or so. I overeat and I admit it. I guess my neurotransmitters aren't the greatest hunger satiation signaling system. Anyway, combine overeating with one Benadryl and it's like I was in a boxing ring with a professional and went down for the count. Problem is that I sleep like a person in a coma after taking a Benadryl and then I'm up wired in the middle of the night. This is one of the reasons why I avoid taking Benadryl. My husband claims Benadryl makes me drool when I sleep. Here's hoping nobody stopped in after dinner just to say hi while I was sprawled out on the couch evidently drooling. I guess I am not exactly a vision of loveliness when I take one of those darn Benadryls. This being said, I think I'll have to pass on your 5-hydroxytryptophan because if Benadryl can knock me out for 5 hours straight, I'd hate to see what your 5-hydroxytryptophan would do to me.
I think that the post was directed at me, or at least it is accurately directed at me. I have both insomnia and messed up brain chemistry. I need to do some more research on the supplement, but I am intrigued.
LOL! Yes, it was aimed at you Zhinu, because you said the dreaded word 'insomnia'! You might ask what I'm doing typing this message at 1:40am, and you'd be correct in asking! I just had too darn much to do today! But I used to have insomnia pretty bad, starting about 2 years ago. I tried the benedryl, as well as just about every other medication, but found some of them to be addictive, as well as expensive. The 5-htp was a God send.
Equilibrium, you don't have to be anxious, or depressed to benefit from it, but sounds like you just need a better antihistamine that doesn't cause drowsiness! That benedryl makes people really groggy in the morning sometimes.
Now I AM going to bed! LOL
I've yet to have any problems with benedryl as a sleeping aid, other than if I have real bad insomnia it doesn't work. As long as I can get at least 4 hours sleep I don't think I have any drug side effects. Even when it doesn't work, I don't have side effects. I've been a little worried about the amount I take, since I take it for allergies and sleeping, but having talked to both my doctor several times, we've decided the amount I take is ok. Though taking any medication or supplement causes some concern or another, be it salt or sleeping pills. My biggest problem with it is that it is one of two allergy pills that do anything and don't make me sick, but I can't take it at work, because it puts me to sleep. If you have any suggestions for a non-drowsy allergy relief, I'm interested. But, 5-htp I am interested in for the anti-depressant side. As I said I'll need to look into it a bit more, due to my weird biochemistry and drug interaction, but I'm willing to give it a try. Nothing else I've tried has been acceptable to me. Though I think if you want to reply you should do so through d-mail, or we should start a new thread. This is way off from Carnivorous plants.
Threads get off track all the time. Besides which, how can we go outside and play with our carnivorous babies if we have hives, bloodshot eyes, and are sneezing every few minutes. I'd sure like a few names of non drowsy over the counter antihistamines to try. So far Benadryl worked fast but it sure does do me in.
I saw a sundew for sale at the Farmers Market last week, there is a carnivorous plant booth there. Vinus fly traps, pitcher plants, sundews, and a few others in various containers. I still don't think I'm ready to buy one, but it was fun to look