English Names for Japanese Morning Glories

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

DG never ceases to amaze me! I'd no idea we had a computer forum. Don't know how I missed it.

Thanks,

Jon.

Brooksville, FL(Zone 9a)

Jon you crack me up, when I first joined I couldn't believe all of the difference forums. This truly is an amazing place.

Janet

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Really looking forward to getting started! lol. It will improve my Japanese and knowledge of MGs, not to mention make a few new friends along the way, hopefully!

Jon.

Brooksville, FL(Zone 9a)

Jon:

I count you as a new friend.... we are partners now....LOL

I think Becky will start another thread later this week, after we get some more ideas here as to what all should be included in this.

I so love the english/ Japanese and then all the other information translated as well should there need to be other columns.

How long have you been other there and where were you living before moving there?

Janet

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Janet thank you! I don't know about other columns until I see the spread sheet draft. I have lived here in Japan for three years and came here from the UK. I can give you a great deal more information about myself and background but I'm not happy to do that on a public forum,

Jon

Brooksville, FL(Zone 9a)

no problem Jon. Nice to meet you.

Janet

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Thank you Janet, nice to meet you too.
Just a thought on pronunciation of Japanese words which are often mispronounced by English speakers, due primarily
to the different vowel sounds of the Japanese language. They are very simple to learn and are as follows.
a i u e o,-------------- a is pronounced as in apple---------------- i as in inch-------------------u as in moon.
e as in ever------------------o as in orange. There is no shift in vowel sounds, as there are in English.
Hope that helps everybody. Have fun!

Jon.

This message was edited Jul 6, 2009 9:58 PM

Brooksville, FL(Zone 9a)

Love it our first lesson, great. I'll add this information to the top of the spread sheet.

Thanks Jon.

Janet

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Another thing to note capitalisation is not used in romanji. It can be useful however with intonation.
Other than when speaking angrily or excitedly, the intonation of Japanese varies by just one semitone in musical terms.
So here's where it can be useful.
Lets say a lower case letter would be the low tone and a capital the high.
Examples: HAna = flower and haNa = nose, OBAsan = mother and oBAsan = grandmother.
This can to some extent can remove ambiguities, thus avoiding the use of kanji.
What do you think?

Jon

Brooksville, FL(Zone 9a)

Jon:

I love how you are relating it to music. Makes sense to me, how about everyone else?

Big difference between HAna and haNa.....LOL

Very interesting as well.

Janet

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Yes Janet I new you'd understand, after all there's a big difference between saying, a purple flower and a purple nose.
lol. Hic!

Jon.

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Interesting explanation of the pronouncation of Japanese words. You are really educating us, Jon! Thanks for the mini lessons! :-)

(Zone 7a)

You've already begun our voyage into a language new to many of us - am enjoying very much - thank you

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Without going into kana just yet, we can learn the syllables of the Japanese language by using romanji.
Learning these first will help with learning kana later,

-- a --- i--u e---o
 ka ki ku ke ko
 sa shi su se so
 ta chi tsu te to
 na ni nu ne no
 ha hi fu he ho
 ma mi mu me mo
 ya yu yo
 ra ri ru re ro
 wa
 In hiragana there is a shift we will go into this as we learn kana
 ga gi gu ge go
 za ji zu ze zo
 da ji zu de do
 ba bi bu be bo
 pa pi pu pe po
 using combinations of plain kana
 kya kyu kyo
 cha chu cho
 nya nyu nyo
 hya hyu hyo
 mya myu myo
 rya ryu ryo
 gya gyu gyo
 ja ju jo
 bya byu byo
 pya pyu pyo
 All Japanese words are constructed from these syllables.
 I have tried to keep this information error free.

Jon

Wilmington, DE(Zone 7a)

Jon, are you anywhere near Fukui? or Fukuoka? I will be in these two cities on business travel over the next 3 weeks. Looking forward to this adventure very much!

Joseph

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Hi Joseph. Fukuoka prefecture is situated on kyushu island in south western Japan. Fukui is on the main Honshu Island on the sea of Japan, not too far from Kyoto, a must visit place .If you can. I live in Ibaraki prefecture on the
border with Chiba prefecture, a long way from either of your destinations. I think you will enjoy it here. Caution!
Don't fall in love with the place as I did! lol.

Have fun! Please let me know it goes.

Jon

Toronto, ON(Zone 5b)

Jon I have a question for you about pronunciation. I have been watching some japanese shows and I have noticed that their letter "u" is sometimes pronounced differently. One would think that is it pronounced as "oo" like in the English language like how one would say "hoop" or "loop" but sometimes I hear it sound like "eau" like in the French language (ex: eau = water, gateua = cake, chapeau = hat - I do not know how to interpret this sound in English, almost like a short "a" but your mouth does not open as much).

For example would you say "hoteru" as "ho-te-roo" or "ho-te-reau" (like the French as I have mentioned above)?

Another letter in question is "w": when you say "watashi wa....." does is sound like "hatashi ha"?

Eliz

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

First lets deal with U, while the nearest sound is oo the actual sound is shorter and often not pronounced at all in words like desu, meaning to exist, as in watashi wa Jon desu. I am Jon, Jon exists, so, are, am. is =desu
In Japanese wa and ha use the same character! confusing. However watashi wa is usualy pronounced wa.
ra ri ru re ro takes practice because the r sound is more of a cross between l and r, sort of lr sound. This of course why Japanese people have difficulty in accurately pronouncing the l and r sound in Engrish.
Then or course local dialects create problems for the student listener as they do in English.
For this reason I study formal Japanese and not our local dialect. hoteru is an interesting one in that it clearly demonstrates a foreign word being pronounced from written katakana.

Hope this helps!

Jon

Toronto, ON(Zone 5b)

helps alot jon! arigato gozaimasu! lol I can't write in kana and or kanji yet.

Eliz

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

doitashimashita Erizu san.

Jon

Special note, the word endings mashite or ta, the i is not uttered.


Edited for a typo. lol easy to make mistakes!

This message was edited Jul 8, 2009 11:19 AM

This message was edited Jul 8, 2009 11:20 AM

(Zone 7a)

How do I say "Hi, all"? Kinda hate to show up here without speaking any Japanese yet. Oh, and "Thank you"?

Jon and Janet - here's an idea I'd like to run by you - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=6792347 . Do I understand correctly (and hopefully) that we're going beyond just the names of MGs, but also to related concepts?

karen

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Konnichiwa, used from noon until dusk means hello
ohayo goziamasu, used am, means good morning
konban wa, used after dusk, means good evening
oyasumi nasai when going to bed. means good night
Japanese is a very formal language and polite words should always be used, with the exception of family and close friends.

Jon

(Zone 7a)

This is in regard to Hanafubuki and may be redundant and/or not useful, but thought y'all might find it interesting. A woodcut by Kiyokata in 1903 was titled "Hanafubuki" and translated as "Falling Cherry Blossoms". Emma's translation as Flower Shower ( http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=1871950 ) may be correct; I don't know. But Ipomoea nil 'Hanafubuki' is pink with a blizzard gene(s), and I thought this woodcut from Arts and Designs of Japan illustrated it so well: http://www.artsanddesignsjapan.com/view.php?t=0&c=92&b=13&n=19

Falling cherry blossoms seems to be one of those themes that recur over the centuries in Japanese art (maybe in its predecessor, China, too?), and some of them are heartbreakingly beautiful.

Jon, regarding the word Hanafubuki, can you tell us which translation is more literally correct? Thanking you in advance -

karen

(Zone 7a)

Regarding my question as to whether Hanafubuki would be more accurately translated as "Falling Cherry Blossoms" instead of "Flower Shower", evidently, according to this very intriguing website/database for Haiku, sakura refers more accurately to cherry blossoms and is not necessarily interchangeable with hana.

http://worldkigodatabase.blogspot.com/2005/03/cherry-blossoms-sakura.html

Still, looking into the relationship between the name, Hanafubuki, and the MG flower does open windows on some very beautiful aspects of Japanese culture - This and the science make MGs all the more fascinating to me.

Jon, I'd be interested in your thoughts

(Zone 7a)

For those who would like haiku with their asagao, try typing Asagao in the search box of: http://worldkigo2005.blogspot.com/2006/12/google-search.html

This seems to have potential to further our inquiry into Japanese/English languages with regard to morning glories. Have you ever noticed that an inquiry into any subject can eventually take you anywhere?

karen

(Zone 7a)

I apologize for using all these posts - just don't want to use up my daily quota of edits on DG. Be sure to note the first link that results from the previous post:

http://worldkigo2005.blogspot.com/2006/01/morning-glory-asagao.html

(Zone 7a)

From the previous link, this one should really make us all smile -

http://www.nipponnoshigoto.jp/blog/archives/5

click on the images for full impact

karen

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Great links, Karen! Thanks for sharing those!

And the photo link in your last post ... well ... makes me want to move back to Japan! LOL! In my dreams, I have an arbor/tunnel with MG vines growing up and over the top and I can walk down the tunnel and see MG blooms of all kinds. And actually, I have aspirations of building such a tunnel using livestock fencing and 4' x 4' posts! Someday ...

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Karen, a word to the wise, just to let you know blogspot com has a poor reputation for security and trustworthiness. Please be sure to run your antispyware after visiting this site! And yes that is exactly how they are often grown here as a sunscreen for a house or building.I will endeavour to translate "hanafubuki" tomorrow.I think this mg was named during the edo period, a modern translation may therefore be inaccurate.

Jon

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Hanafubuki, cherry blossom falling seems close. The problem is not so much with the Japanese meaning but with
English itself. How many words do we have that roughly mean falling? At least ten! Cherry blossom time is deeply
entrenched in the culture of Japan so it really is not surprising that other things are named after it. Shower is stretching it a little too far I think. It also depends on how you interpret the grammar, being a single word its
written as flower-fall but hanafubki is more of a time or season. Falling cherry blossoms is playing with the grammar and meaning of a single word to suit English. Not quite so glamorous when you undress it is it.
There are many words of this nature in Japanese that have profound cultural meaning, consequently resulting in
poor or inaccurate translations purely to add glamour to a phase when translated into English. Interestingly this is also done in reverse by the Japanese. I will try and research this one a little further and post the information as and when I have completed it.

Jon

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

My wife said hanafubuki literally means flower coming off in the wind. So the plot thickens!
Hardly a good name for an mg, lol.

Jon

szarvas, Hungary

Sometime a pic of bloom is not bad !
Here is Hanafubuki

Thumbnail by dany12
Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Hey dany hi! Yes I agree! my head hurts, lol. Did you have any joy with my suggestion somewhere a long way up in this thread?
Thanks for the picture. The bottom line is it's called Hanafubuki, regardless of feeble attempts to translate.

Jon

szarvas, Hungary

Jon,
I have a friend in Tokyo who can buy for me . But my job is to find the sites like Yahoo.jp where I can find all the seeds from the big compagnies or other private people.
Is there a place like Dave's Garden ?
I have addresses of some blogs of forums but something like DG no traces.

Dany

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Dany - Your Hanafubuki is beautiful! Interesting all the interpretations of that name, Jon. This is far more complex that we originally thought ...

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Dani I have located a link to a Japanese garden web site in English only had a quick look but it looks promising.
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/jgard/msg072317102578.html
Tell me what you think,

Jon

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Becky, you just would not believe the time I have spent on this. My conclusion is any translation of these
names is going to be an interpretation by the translator and not a direct cut 'n' dried job. There's just so many factors to consider. hanafubuki is a good example, flower shower (wind blowing blossoms around)
(cherry blossom falling) ? No part off this word suggests cherry (sakura) and yet the word is used to describe the time of cherry blossom falling. Direct translation, something like (flower blow from tree)
deliberately not using plurals, as there are none in Japanese. To accurately name this one would require
a plant tag the size of Texas. lol

I can see attempts to translate some of these words as being very contentious indeed.

Jon,
tired, disillusioned, fed up, and the grass needs cutting!

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Jon - Well, looks like the only definite thing is ... cutting your grass! lol

I originally thought it was a great idea and would be very helpful. But it looks like it is going to be an impossible task now. I really appreciate your offer to help put such a database together. And you've been a big help with some of your translations. Thank you. We may have to just let this idea go... Maybe another way will come to mind at some point.

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

OK grass cut, car washed. Bright tailed & bushy eyed.
My thoughts this morning. A good number of Japanese words have entered the English language over
the years, lets take a couple of examples, Bonsai, karaoke, Origami verified by the fact the the DG
spell checker is happy with them. We all know the meanings but if you were to write them down they
would be sentences or even paragraphs, rather than a single word or two. this of course is the very reason these words have entered the English language. However someone at sometime has informed us at length of the meaning. Looking back at my recent research I can see just how relevant this is.
A translation of a word like Hanafubuki would therefore be more like a lengthy dictionary definition.
explaining meaning, pronunciation, origin and so on.
What's your take on this?

Jon

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