English Names for Japanese Morning Glories

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Jon - Sounds reasonable. Like a lengthy dictionary defination... hmmm ... maybe we could tackle this language translation as such. Do you think it would be do-able? That is a lot of work for you personally.

I haven't seen Janet post lately. I hope she is still willing to help us on this.

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Maybe. how about giving me a few random MG names to kick around, see what comes out?
How many Japanese Mgs are there?
Jon

(Zone 7a)

Dany, you can give us a flower break anytime - loved your portrait of Hanafubuki.

I can't stay long - trouble with eyes again. But I thought I had better post some research from a source I can not name. Hope it helps -

morning face
http://www.poporo.ne.jp/~kondoh/asagao/index.html

Here is what google advanced search yields for the exact words "morning face" and asagao and as presented as a translation of the kanji and romaji
http://tinyurl.com/m3qajp

Here is what google advanced search yields for the exact words "morning flower" and asagao and not not presented as a translation from the kanji
http://tinyurl.com/lp4wmy

related gao and kao pertaining to face or less commonly a peony...it apparently never translates literally to a bloom or flower as has been suggested...

kao:face (person)
kaodachi:looks, features
kaoiro:complexion
kaojashin:photographic portrait
kaokatachi:features, looks
kaonajimi:acquaintance, friend, familiar face
kaori:aroma, fragrance, scent, smell
kaori:fragrance, aroma
kaoru:to smell sweet, to be fragrant
kaotsuki:looks, features
kaou:peony, king of flowers
kaou:signature (not stamp)
kaowotateru:to save face
kaowotsubusu:to cause loss of face
nanikuwanukao:innocent look
ukanaikao:looking depressed
ukanukao:long face, look dejected
akaragao:red faced
egao:smiling face

could result in

atamagaokashii:insane
kaosu:chaos

hanafubuki / hanahubuki - cherry blossom storm or blizzard wind blows the cherry blossums off of the trees...this is what a person who had a doctorate in the Japanese and several European languages and who is also familiar with asagao relayed to me...

previous postings
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=1703650
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=1703811

http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/656538/
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=5611908

-------------------------------
Back to me -

Jon, here's a list of Japanese morning cultivars belonging to Ipomoea nil. (There may be some mistakes; for example, I'm wondering if Akathukinoumi is the same as Akatsuki no Umi, but misspelled? If things have not improved since I last looked, there may be some other cultivars floating around in DG PlantFiles that are not currently classified under Ipomoea nil that also belong there.) -
http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/adv_search.php?searcher%5Bcommon%5D=&searcher%5Bfamily%5D=&searcher%5Bgenus%5D=Ipomoea&searcher%5Bspecies%5D=nil&searcher%5Bcultivar%5D=&searcher%5Bhybridizer%5D=&searcher%5Bgrex%5D=&search_prefs%5Bblank_cultivar%5D=&search_prefs%5Bsort_by%5D=genus&images_prefs=both&Search=Search

Japanese morning glory cultivars belonging to Ipomoea purpurea (There are some mistakes and confusions here too) - http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/adv_search.php?searcher%5Bcommon%5D=&searcher%5Bfamily%5D=&searcher%5Bgenus%5D=Ipomoea&searcher%5Bspecies%5D=purpurea&searcher%5Bcultivar%5D=&searcher%5Bhybridizer%5D=&searcher%5Bgrex%5D=&search_prefs%5Bblank_cultivar%5D=&search_prefs%5Bsort_by%5D=genus&images_prefs=both&Search=Search

I wonder if we need to redefine our goals with this database? Just a suggestion - not sure what that would be at this point. I'd love to do something like a Japanese/English dictionary involving not only names of MGs but related concepts as I noted earlier. Would love to know what you think about that, too.

Whatever becomes of this thread, your efforts here are so much appreciated. You've certainly widened our understanding.

Karen

Edited to say that if the 2nd and 3rd hyperlinks in this post for "morning face" and "morning flower", respectively, don't work, you might try to copy and paste them in the address box of a webpage to see what they are. I'm running out of edits to fix and test this, at this point.

This message was edited Jul 16, 2009 8:09 AM

This message was edited Jul 16, 2009 8:16 AM

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Thank you Karen, nice to be appreciated. I think our current line of conversation is already beginning to
redefine our goals. The same thought occurred to me regarding dictionary format, way to go?
Interesting to me that the person who has a doctorate in Japanese gave a definition not so far from mine.
That I find encouraging news! Akathukinoumi must be a miss spelling as there's no th sound in Japanese,
more likely akafukinoumi I will look into this and research the other info you have sent.

Jon

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

"How many Japanese Mgs are there?"
LOL! A LOT!!!

Some names to kick around:

Hamaginga
Suigetsu
Raiko
Akatsuki no Beni
Akatsuki no Muraski
Akatsuki no Tsuyu
Heian no Haru
Heian no Kagayaki
Heian no Izumi
Heian no Umi
Heian no Yoso-oi

This message was edited Jul 14, 2009 11:37 PM

(Zone 7a)

Oops - I've been advised that the correct spelling is Romaji, not Romanji

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Yep! I saw that too! gomenasai

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Henian is a period in classical Japanese history 794-1195 or can mean peaceful, near impossible to
name some of these without reading them in kanji, plain kana or romaji, too ambiguous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heian_period

Jon

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Jon - If I am not mistaken, I think many of them are meant to be read in romaji. Would that help to know that?

I had read that it was a period in Japanese history. Interesting that a whole series of JMG vines would be named for that period. What would Umi, Yoso-oi, Kagayaki, etc. mean?

(Zone 7a)

In this post - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=6820914 - the following 2 links were fixed/changed - worth looking into -

Here is what google advanced search yields for the exact words "morning face" and asagao and as presented as a translation of the kanji and romaji
http://tinyurl.com/m3qajp

Here is what google advanced search yields for the exact words "morning flower" and asagao and not not presented as a translation from the kanji
http://tinyurl.com/lp4wmy

Karen

Edited to say that my correction efforts yesterday on 7/15/09 did not work - I hope y'all will try these links again as they are very informative

This message was edited Jul 16, 2009 8:21 AM

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Karen yes they are as you say meant to be read in romaji (strictly speaking Hepburn style).
However in the case of names of flowers they are romanised to enable foreign speakers to read and pronounce them. for accurate translation, kanji must be used. I have shown my wife and others the names
you have given to me, none of them are able to translate these without kanji. Even with kanji the translator
has to decide which reading to use, this requires flair and knowledge of the subject matter and a profound
knowledge of kanji. Not intending to sound negative here but I am a little stuck!
Sorry for babbling on.

Thanks for the links.
Jon

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Some interesting reading for those interested.

http://openspaceindia.org/greico.htm

Back to my quest. Many of the names of Japanese asagao have their roots (pun not intended) in the Heian
period, at that time over 5000 kanji were in use, modern Japan now has 2000 in daily use.
To accurately translate these names a knowledge of kanji of this period is desirable. This of course is
way beyond my limited knowledge at this time. I am going to try to accumulate some seed catalogues
and read the modern kangi for these names I'm sure you will all appreciate this will take a considerable
time to achieve. I will post each name I feel I have successfully translated..
A real education for me, thank you for giving me the opportunity to participate in your passion for Morning
Glory's.

Kind regards
Jon

This message was edited Jul 16, 2009 1:16 PM

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

A translated poem on this page, demonstrates how strange Japanese sounds when translated into English.
http://www.venus.dti.ne.jp/~kn2/Scrj07.htm#TAG02
Jon

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

水月 suigetsu. Moons reflection on water.

羅イ子 raiko. Children in fine silk. 70% sure.

Jon

This message was edited Jul 18, 2009 8:51 AM

Brooksville, FL(Zone 9a)

Becky and Jon

Was dumped with added work responsibilities as well as garden club duties (the members seemed to think I would make a good President.LOL) so I haven't had a chance to read the posts, but I'm still on board, going to a DG members garden today to take cuttings of Clems, so I promise I'll be back on tomorrow and get caught up.

Sorry to be MIA for a while.

Later folks.

Janet
edited for spelling

This message was edited Jul 18, 2009 8:04 AM

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Hi Janet! So glad to see that you are still with us. Sounds like you are one busy lady! :-)

Also, I would appreciate it if you would please share with me how you root cutting of clems. (Dmail me!)

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Hi Guys correction. ipomoea raiko is translated as lightning. I looked at the kanji on a seed pack which is different from the kanji I was previously researching. and is most definitely lightning. I am making good headway
with the others on my list and hope to post the results soon. Please feel free to challenge any translation I may make and I will endeavour to delve a little deeper.

Jon

Brooksville, FL(Zone 9a)

I'm really sorry folks for being gone so long. The new duties are killing me at work....

Well we took the cuttings last Saturday and its been a week, none seem to have died (yet!!!) lol.

So as soon as I have roots I'll post pictures.

All we did was take a cutting at a good strong spot, and cut at an angle top and bottom. Bottom was cut at a longer length top shorter. Cut one branch off and took all leaves but one on the other sides branch.
Soaked them for a few minutes then put in root tone, and put in seed/gravel starter mix. Clems like very well drained soil. They are sitting on the north side of the house and it has been easy so far as we have had rain every other day but not so much to wash them out. So I've been lucky not to have to be watering them every day.

Ok back to your regularly scheduled discussion of MG....teeee heeeee

By the way my one that I showed a picture of earlier is just blooming up a storm. The other even after I added fertilizer is still sending out runners....

I see that it doesn't look to be a go on the spread sheet and understandably so. One thing leads to another and another and another and then your lost....LOL

Janet

(Zone 7a)

Janet, we may not wind up with a spreadsheet as originally conceived, but look how much we've learned in the process. You and Jon have really sparked some intriguing directions to go toward, and for these two things, I thank you both so much.

It does seem that concentrating information in the already existing DG PlantFiles database makes sense. But, a glossary of Japanese terms that relate to names and culture of morning glories would be great to reference in this forum's sticky index.

The names of Japanese morning glories are so poetic, and that poetry in itself, to me, is a kind of bridge into Japanese art and culture, which the internet has happily allowed me to study to a small extent. I know Jon is already overloaded without me asking questions about the names of certain woodcuts and their series; those questions can lead to book-sized inquiries into Japanese culture.

-------------------

Janet, thanks also for sharing your propagation technique for clematis. In my garden, I have found that laying a length or few of clematis vines in a circular pattern around the parent plant on the ground will result in many offspring clones that root wherever the leaf nodes of the vine touch the ground. I like to pot those up in the spring when not too much vine growth has occurred.

---------------

That English-speaking forum for Japanese gardens/gardeners that you mentioned above, Jon, looks wonderful. Wonder if there might be any Japanese morning glory aficionados there?

You will always be welcome here, Janet, and I hope you'll come back as much as possible, and that Jon will stay and allow us to continue enabling his love of morning glories, too.

Thanking you and Jon again for all you've done for us,

Karen

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Hi Guys I'm still here, workin! LOL.

Jon

Brooksville, FL(Zone 9a)

I too am here.

No problem on the cuttings. Really the best way is to do as you have already done, take a vine cover it up with soil wait and then take that as the cutting.

Everymorning I go out and walk past my MG and it always has about 4-5 blooms for me. This is a new one only a few months old. I just love it. I fertilized the other vine but still no blooms just vine out of control....LOL

Janet

(Zone 7a)

Yea! glad you two are staying.

Incidentally, I think some MGs are presdisposed to take longer than others to bloom from time of sowing. For example, PamSue quit growing Keiryu and traded it to me because it took so long to bloom, and I found the same thing to be true in my garden, relative to the other cultivars of Ipomoea nil. In that same year, Star of India was the fastest to bloom of all the different cultivars of I. nil sown on the same day with it.

Wilmington, DE(Zone 7a)

I found what appears will be quite valuable online language resource -- EUdict web site http://www.eudict.com/index.php I saw you can enter an English name and get Japanese Kanji or Hiregana/Katakana terms in translation. Jon, if you have time, perhaps can you test drive it for accuracy with regards to botanical terminology?

Joseph


This message was edited Jul 29, 2009 7:28 PM

Thumbnail by Gerris2
Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

I will do that Joseph, Thanks

Jon

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Janet and Jon - If ever either of you need MG seeds, I do share with my friends! Let me know by dmail if so!

Jon - I wonder if JMG seeds are offered at the local market seasonally? Maybe you might have the opportunity to purchase some when they are in season! And thanks for taking the time to educate us on the language. It's been very enlightening for me! Thank you!

Tokyo, Japan(Zone 10a)

Hi Becky, All the seed for MGs seem to have been pulled from the shops at this time but they will reappear in time for spring. I have been trying to get hold of some catalogues but it seems their in print for next season. So I'm a little starved of information right now. I think I'm the one getting the education here. LOL! Thank you!

Jon

(Zone 7a)

This thread is getting long, so will continue here - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/1023522/

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