Grandpa Otts,Star of Yelta,Kniowlas...is there a difference?

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

The question regarding the differences(if any) between the named darker colored Ipomoea purpureas seems to repeatedly arise,so I decided to post my own thread for easy reference...

There is longterm self-perpetuating confusion regarding the darker colored Ipomoea cultivars and so,I am going to attempt to clarify what some of the darker named cultivars of Ipomoea purpurea look like, and the description in relation to entries that are in the PlantFiles or otherwise posted on DavesGarden...


Grandpa Ott's is a cultivar that was 'introduced' by the founders of the SeedSavers Organization with seed that came from their grandfather Ott.

The blooms that resulted from the first batch of seeds that I acquired in the early 80's produced blooms that were consistent with the Seed Savers Exchange early description...the blooms produced a dark bluish-purple limb,a fuchia star and (alot of) rich fuchia around the outer throat and present in the mid and upper tube...some of the blooms had the type of tube that seemed to glow,despite the deeply pigmented throat and mid/upper tube...

Grandpa Ott's...as entered in the PlantFiles
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/51597/index.html
Regarding the photo entered, the following 2 photos come the closest to the original Granpa Otts,although the rich amount of fuchia in the tube and around the throat is still somewhat 'diluted'...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/92146/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/121213/

Tthe other photo entries are either blatantly not Granpa Ott's or not close enough to the distinct type and these indeterminate examples are most likely best entered into the general Ipomoea purpurea section here...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/117902/

The following photos are very typey for the early distinctive examples of Granpa Otts
http://davesgarden.com/forums/fp.php?pid=1794010
The poster of the above photo entered it as Star of Yelta,but the amount and location of the fuchia distinguish it as a Granpa Otts with a medium dark limb...
A Grandpa Ott's of mine with a relatively dark limb that is almost as dark as a Kniowla type...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/117902/

Star of Yalta/Yelta...marketed as an improved 'hybrid/cultivar' flower that would stay open for most of the day...purple-blue limb with a prominent darker star...
The earliest versions of this that I grew were similar to the Grandpa Otts,but having a star that was more to the blueish spectrum and without the more pronounced degree of fuchia present in the Otts...

Star of Yelta/Yalta entries...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/go/51638/index.html
The only entry that looks like a Star of Yelta/Yalta is the entry by WilloWasp here
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/40315/
The following entries look closer to a Granpa Otts based on depth of limb color and fuchia colored star...although the amount of fuchia present is still not very typey for Granpa Otts
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/48261/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/61950/
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/47954/
The other entries are showing various degrees of diluted colorations of a Granpa Otts type,that are indistinctive as to any particular cultivar...


Kniolas Black...first marketed by JLHudson...pronounced as Kay-NOW-la...seeds were initially collected and provided by a Mr.Kniola who states that he found them growing at an abandoned farmhouse in Kentucky...I grew out the first batch of seeds offered by JLHudson and the resultant plants displayed various degrees of dark pigmentation...but the darkest>had limbs that were darker than the dark Grandpa Otts of mine that I posted above...with extremely dark stars and the tubes varied from light to heavily fuchia pigmented...
The following photo entered for Kniolas looks the closest to the original dark blooms that I grew...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/7397/
The other photo by poppysue to the Kniolas entry does not display the very dark depth of color that the darkest Kniolas can display and the other entries are something other than Kniolas...

President Tyler...looks like Star of Yelta,but suppossedly somewhat larger blooms..I have not seen the reputed larger bloom feature to be consistent...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/30405/

Midnight Velvet...this entry shows a bloom that appears to have a fuchia star,a light throat area along with a relatively dark outer limb...seems to have mixed features from Grandpa Otts,Kniowlas and Star of Yelta...I personally do not believe this to be a distinct cultivar...
http://davesgarden.com/pf/showimage/71384/


Some threads where I addressed this topic previously to various degrees...
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/638611/

Ipomoea purpureas can readily cross fertilize and they very often will(!),so(despite claims of stable long term open pollinated types) unless the most typey and distinctive blooms are protected,tagged and used to grow future crops,any original distinctive features will be lost> get all mixed up and what you wind up with is a 'mish-mash' of indistinctive features that can no longer be attributed to any particular named variety...

I very much enjoy celebrating all the variations,crossings and mutations that arise,but regardful observance will help to ensure that these type and form divergencies are not mistaken and substituted for original types...

Hope this information is useful to someone who is interested in these named Ipomoea purpurea types...

TTY,...

Ron

P.S. I would welcome feedback from anyone who would have insight into whether the name Yelta or Yalta is more relevantly applied to something with a 5 pointed star pattern,despite whatever the marketing companies (mis?)applied...I did a quick search on both Yelta andf Yalta...it seems that Yelta refers to a couple of small geographic areas and is the name of an old god...Yalta is most often referred to as a geographic location particularly regarding the summit meeting of the post WWII allies...


This message was edited Aug 20, 2006 8:45 AM

Lakeland, FL(Zone 9b)

Thanks Ron i just got some dark seeds Regards Paul

Lakeland, FL(Zone 9b)

Ron what can you tell me about Chocolate MG ? thanks Paul

Paris, TN(Zone 6b)

Thank you Ron. Since these are all so similar and I still don't know the ID of mine, I think I'll just say, my pretty purple with pink throat somewhat starish unknown MG's...LOL :)

Your knowledge astounds me, as well as the amount of work it takes to truly determine what the named cultivar of an MG actually is.

-Sunny

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

phicks-Paul - Thanks for your question regarding the Chocolate colored MG's...I presume that you are referring to the Ipomoea nil Chocolates and although I believe that the differences among the 'several' types of Chocolate MG's deserves to be answered,I would prefer to keep the focus of this particular thread on the Ipomoea purpurea cultivars ...

I have been prodding Emma to do a thread on clarifying the differences in the Chocolate Ipomoea nil and hopefully that thread will see actualization in the not too distant future...


Hineni-Sunny - Glad you enjoy my postings...actually if people were to use the few relatively simple color keys>determining the name would be easy

Since all of the Ipomoea purpureas discussed so far have relatively dark blueish limbs,the remaing key questions to ask and to look for would only be 3...

1) What color is the Star(?) >...fuchia(?) or blue(?)...>fuchia = more of an Ott.... or blue = more of a SOY...


2) Is there alot(!) of fuchia around the throat and down into the tube...yes or no...>alot = a more typey Ott or a more typey Kniola

3)How dark is the limb...medium blue...dark blue...very/extremely dark blue..(?)...> medium or dark=SOY or Ott..>.very/extremely dark= Ott or Kniolas


If the flower you have is not outstandingly typey for a particular named cultivar,then simply see which type it most closely matches...

Should you be interested to post your bloom here,I will take a look at it,apply the 3 basic general keys stated above and offer an opinion...

TTY,...

Ron


P.S. The more people apply these general keys and select out for the most typey blooms,the easier it will be to determine what types people have...or the in other words to tell the 'mutts'/mixed breeds from the purebreeds...I've always liked both 'mutts' and purebreeds...



This message was edited Aug 21, 2006 6:55 AM

Paris, TN(Zone 6b)

Thanks Ron,

Based on your criteria, I'm going to say an Ott. The blooms photograph more blue than the true color that they appear to the eye, which is a deep purple. I'm posting a couple of different shots in this thread.

Thanks for your help.

Thumbnail by Hineni
Paris, TN(Zone 6b)

2nd shot, different camera.

Thumbnail by Hineni
Paris, TN(Zone 6b)

Side shot.

Thumbnail by Hineni
Paris, TN(Zone 6b)

Up close full on shot. Pollen included for free! :)

Thumbnail by Hineni
Lakeland, FL(Zone 9b)

Thanks Ron Regards Paul

Lubbock, TX(Zone 7a)

Hi Ron. Great idea for a thread. Here are pictures of some I. Purpurea blooms from 3 different sources that I have planted in 3 different locations. This first shot is supposed to be Star of Yelta.



Thumbnail by Txwillie
Lubbock, TX(Zone 7a)

Second shot also was called Star of Yelta.

Thumbnail by Txwillie
Lubbock, TX(Zone 7a)

This is one of the darker blooms from a large section of supposed to be Grandpa Otts. Seed from several different gardeners. Notice a wide variety of color in these blooms. However, must say that this is one of the few varieties of MG that ignored the heat and wind and kept on a keepin' on.

Thumbnail by Txwillie
Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

Hineni - The blooms you posted look like they have more of a fuchia colored star,although a combination of lighting and camera settings can sometimes make the fuchia look a bit more blue...and some blooms may produce different colored stars on different days...there isn't alot(!) of fuchia in the tube or around the throat,so although it may not be a 'thoroughbred', I would say it is closer to a G'OT's type...


I did notice something in the sideshot you posted here
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/Hineni_1156091828_392.jpg
the sepals look to be curving/curling outward and downward and this is very atypical for Ipomoea purpurea...

Are the sepals consistently behaving this way on only this particular(?) plant,or are alot of your purpureas displaying this unusual 'effect' (?)...

Please report further on this feature...

Txwillie-Perry - All of the photos you posted show blooms that have a fuchia star,and although not alot of fuchia in the tube or around the throat,the star is fuchia,so I would posit them all as G'OT's types

I like the 2nd photo you posted here
http://pics.davesgarden.com/pics/Txwillie_1156099750_107.jpg
as it has what looks like an inner lighter flower composed of 5 rounded petals,surrounding the throat area...I like that inner petal pattern effect...

It seems to be the case that there are presently more darkly colored Ipomoea purpurea with fuchia colored stars rather than blueish-purple stars...
I remember that in previous years there were more blueish-purple stars...the exact cause(s) for this coloration phenomenon are uncertain and speculative...

TTY,...

Ron

Mesilla Park, NM

This is very interesting to me.. bumping this up for everyone.
A.

Aschaffenburg, Germany

So, if the sepals look to be curving/curling outward and downward and this is very atypical for Ipomoea purpurea...

What is it typical of then, Ron, an Ipomoea tricolor?

Martin

Jasper, AR(Zone 7a)

Awesome thread, Thanx Ron!! Can't wait for the sun to come up so I can take a closer look at mine!

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

gofast-Martin- Thanks for yourinquiry...

Here's a link to a thread which may help you to go even faster(!) as per species identification...

What is the difference between nil, purpurea and tricolor?
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/723465/

Hope that helps...

TTY,...

Ron

Aschaffenburg, Germany

Thanks Ron, very interesting info. So if we take an interhybrid ipo (as MGMan claims to have created) such as the Maisugata (Ithe mongrel cross between the nil x purpurea, then that will open up quite a few alleys towards producing new interesting types of MGs...Well, has there been anything new underneath the sun, Salomo may have asked before...? Also, I just realised that I could try a Scarlett O'Hara and a Blue Silk, which are both nils, and are about to flower within a couple of days, just to see what I get...

That's the excitement of knowing more about the subject, then you can start creating the plants you want. I mean that in a positive and not Frankenstoneian way...


Martin

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