SOLVED: Another Texas Native? II

San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

Yeah it comes and goes here . . . not like it is - or was when I lived over there in H-town. It's usually up around 90-100% in the morning and burns off pretty fast after the sun gets up over the trees. But yeah I feel like I'm walking in water around here too at times.

San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

Well I went ahead and added a few of these up here closer to the house. I have a little "knot" garden (that's what I've heard them called, though I'm not sure why?) with a few other drought resistant plants out there in FULL TEXAS SUN . . . so I think these should do fine out there. IF they survive the transplanting part. Otherwise, I'll just start some from seed next spring and add them then.

The last link jnana provided has the *how to* on germinating the seeds and starting them out. Hopefully that will produce lots of little Liatris for everyone that wants some of these seeds. I have plenty, so anyone that wants some, DMail me and I'll send you my addy so you can send a SASE and I'll get them out asap.

Here's a pic of the ones I added to my little rock garden.

Thumbnail by GD_Rankin
San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

Here's a closer view. You can see a couple on either side of my Esperanza. If these make it . . . I think I'll add a few more so they can better fill in the spaces behind there.

Thumbnail by GD_Rankin
west Houston, TX(Zone 9a)

Liatris seeds are cheap and plentiful in the trades if anyone has problems and wants more seed on this plant:
http://www.seedsource.com/

and also:
http://www.vvm.com/~reid/sweet.htm

Both excellent private owned, family Texas business sources. My philosophy--think global, buy local.
Debbie


San Antonio, TX(Zone 8b)

Liatris elegans has narrow leaves that are about 3 inches long. It usually is 3-5 feet tall with the bloom spike being about 2 feet long and the blooms fairlly close together. It loves sandy soil. From the research I have done on native Texas Liatris, your plant most closely resembles Liatris elegans except that the bloom stalk is so close to the ground. Do you have a closeup of the leaves?

San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

Sure do . . . I'll post a couple different ones for ya.

Thanks htop :)

Thumbnail by GD_Rankin
San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

Here's another . . . hope these help.

Thumbnail by GD_Rankin
San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

I guess I should re-open this thread until we get confirmation?

Decatur, IL(Zone 5b)

I dont see an exact yet but very close to picture. I still like them. LOL


Beck

San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

I think the ones I have look a little thicker and heavier in blooms on the stalks . . . Maybe they are just at different stages in the bloom/groth cycle? Just a guess.

Lonoke, AR(Zone 7b)

Cool rock garden, GD! What type of rock is that? Is that what you referred to as a "knot" garden? If not, you gotta tell me what a knot garden is also! =)

west Houston, TX(Zone 9a)

Scroll down this page to the bottom to see Liatris elegans in a 'wild' type setting.
http://www.chateaunouveau.com/OMW_plants.htm

DJ

(Zone 6b)

There are at least 4 varieties of Pinkscale Gayfeather, but yours looks most like Liatris elegans var. elegans to me.

Also, a just bit off topic, on that last link posted there is a Hibiscus called "Texas Star". Does anyone know how a plant not native anywhere in Texas has the common name of "Texas Star" in the deep South? Is there a story behind this? Also, in places farther North this plant is known as Scarlet Hibiscus.

San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

Thanks Rhonda,

I'm not real sure why they call them "knot gardens" . . . from what I understand, and this may not be correct, is they refer to an area/garden that is out away from the rest of the garden/yard area. But that's just going from what my mom said she heard on a gardening show she watches. I've never bothered to look it up . . . now I just tease her about have'n a garden that's *knot* really a garden . . . lol

I just put that in this year. It's out in a full sun area that needed something to sort of shield an *eye sore* behind it and to one side (not shown in the photos lol) . . . So I put some young plants out there that are mostly drought resistant types and surrounded them with the flagstone you see there and placed a few stepping stones around inside then mulched the rest with cedar mulch.

I think that looks pretty close too Debbie, but it looks a little brighter pink than mine. Of course that could be the lighting/photo?

Thanks for the link :)

west Houston, TX(Zone 9a)

Hibiscus coccineus is native to Texas and the southeastern United States. It is adaptable to a wide variety of conditions but it is definitely a Texas native plant (just not endemic to Texas).

Dublin, CA(Zone 9a)

A knot garden is a formal style where you have shrubs planted in a knot-like pattern, many times people will grow colorful flowers in the center of the knot. Here are some pictures since I'm sure my description isn't very good!
http://images.google.com/images?q=knot+garden&hl=en

San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

Ahh ok Ecrane3 . . . that makes more sense to me now :) I guess mine is not exactly a knot garden then . . . but more of a square garden ;)

San Antonio, TX(Zone 8b)

lol GD....its the idea that counts.. :) I reckon its definitely European in origin...and now I do remember seeing some of these patterned gardens around Boston. Interesting... sort of looks like a tattoo that I have on my shoulder...lol

San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

hmmmm . . . maybe mine is a *square knot*? :D

San Antonio, TX(Zone 8b)

lol @ the square knot.... :p How bout a sailer's knot? :)

San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

Sailor's knot? Wouldn't that require have'n enough some water somewhere to put a boat in? hmmmmm . . . maybe we'll get some rain if ya keep think'n positive like that :) :D

btw . . . these little plants I brought to the *not so knot garden* up here by the house are still look'n fine. But of course they have their own water storage system, so I expect them to look ok for a while. I just hope they can survive long enough to get some new root growth started before their store runs dry.

We'll see soon enough I guess.

(Zone 6b)

dmj1218,

No, Hibiscus coccineus is not native anywhere in Texas. The closest it comes to Texas in the wild is Southern Mississippi perhaps. Some even say it doesn't grow farther West than Southern Alabama.

A section from the Houston chronicle about this Hibiscus not being native to Texas:
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/life/huber/2873307.html

The Floridata page on this Hibiscus:
http://www.floridata.com/ref/H/hibisc_c.cfm

west Houston, TX(Zone 9a)

Are you familiar with the term "naturalized'? As opposed to endemic?:
If you read this site you might discover it is naturalized in Texas.
http://plants.usda.gov/java/nameSearch?keywordquery=hibiscus+coccineus&mode=sciname&submit.x=11&submit.y=11

Most people in this area are familiar with the lack of intelligence on the part of the Houston Chronicle. "Some" people can't even look on the USDA plant data base "apparently".

(Zone 6b)

Naturlized is completely different than native. Tree of Heaven(Ailanthus altissima) is naturlized in the US(native to China), but hardly native to the US and the vernacular name is from a direct translation of it's Chinese name, and not a name which evokes a certain geographic area the plant clearly isn't native to(like it would if it was called American Tree of Heaven or something similar). Also, the link you provided(the USDA plant data base) doesn't show Hibiscus naturlized or native in Texas. Do you know of naturlized populations in Texas somewhere? Also, every single reference I have(about 18) lists this Hibiscus as being native to North Florida, Southern Georgia, extreme South Alabama and a few mention extreme South Mississippi. NONE mention anywhere West of Mississippi(the USDA site is the only place I've seen Louisiana listed). The Digital Flora of Texas also doesn't list this Hibiscus as native to Texas. So, perhaps you have some knowledge (If you know of a naturlized or even native population in Texas) nobody else does and that would be very valuable to scientists and other professionals(I'm being honest, no sarcasm. It wouldn't be the first time someone besides a scientist made a neat discovery!)

Lastly, I still haven't figured out how this Hibiscus, which I assert isn't native or historically naturlized in Texas, got a common name which is a direct reference to Texas. I thought perhaps there was an interesting story behind this.

San Antonio, TX(Zone 8b)

After reading in this thread that Texas star hibiscus is not native to Texas, I have done a lot of research.which has added to my confusion. I have always believed it was a naturalized native plant in Texas. The Lady Bird Johnson Wildflower center states that it is native to AL, AR, FL, GA, LA, MS, NC, SC, VA. and does not show that it is a naturalized plant in Texas. The Texas A&M site indicates it is a naturalixed native Texas plant. Many, many other sites state that it is Texas native plant. It is not included in the native Texas plant books I have. The USDA site does not include Texas as a state where in it is natively distributed.

OOPS, sorry kman_blue. You posted as I was adding my post. This hibiscus is frequently grown as a cultivated species in Texas. All the nursuries sell it by the name 'Texas Star Hibiscus'. This may be a commercial selling point. The name I assume is derived from the star shape in the center of the bloom.

Scroll down to the "Snippets" note at the bottom of the page:
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/living/home/15415744.htm
I hope someone out there knows more about it than I do.

This message was edited Sep 7, 2006 11:57 AM

This message was edited Sep 7, 2006 3:17 PM

(Zone 6b)

htop,
Where did you find it being listed as naturlized (which doesn't make it native) in Texas on the Texas A&M website? I only found references to it being cultivated on their site.

Edited to add a link to the Texas vascular plant checklist at Texas A&M which includes all of the Hibiscus listed as native to or naturlized in Texas(note H. coccineus is not listed):

http://www.csdl.tamu.edu/FLORA/ftc/dft/ftc_mlv.htm

This message was edited Sep 7, 2006 12:42 PM

San Antonio, TX(Zone 8b)

I can't remember where I found it on the Texas A&M site. It was a few days ago and I did not save a link to it. I think it was in a list of nativve plants and it was denoted as a naturalized plant. Of course I could be mistaken because I did not document it. BTW, I added an additional comment in my post above after I saw you had posted before me. I'll try to find it again later. I checked my husband into the hospital yesterday in an emergency type situation and I need to go check on what they are gong to "do" to him. This hibiscus is listed for sale at many native Texas plant sites. Perhaps we here in Texas have assumed it wa a native (naturalized) plant due to its common name here.

As examples:
http://www.magnoliagardensnursery.com/productdescrip/Hibiscus_TexasStar.html

I am sorry, it was at the Stephen F. Austin University site where it talks about whether this hibiscus as a native plant. I thought it staed it was a native Y=Texas plant; but, it does not specifically state this. Because this university is in east Texas, perhaps the plant is now considered "naturalized' because it has migrated in the wild from Louisiana.
http://arboretum.sfasu.edu/pnpc/nativeherbaceous.htm

This message was edited Sep 7, 2006 12:19 PM

(Zone 6b)

Thanks for the info htop. I know it's commonly sold in Texas(in regular nurseries as well as Texas native nurseries) under the name Texas Star. I have lots of friends in Texas and whenever I visit, I check out what's selling at nurseries. That's when I first became interested in this common name, because up here in Kansas(also in Oklahoma North of the Arbuckles) it's sold as Scarlet Hibiscus or Scarlet Rosemallow. I also think the star like blooms accounts for the star part of the common name down there. This Hibiscus is a nice one under any name and even up here it seeds and I get seedlings popping up in different places, which means it's limitedly naturlizing here for me too(still doesn't make it native to Kansas though).

These kind of misleading names have always interested me for some reason, kind of like Jerusalem Artichoke(a USA native, and nowhere to be found within thousands of miles of Jerulsalem!). Or things like Tomatoes amd Potatoes(OK, no misleading name, but misleading modern reputations perhaps). Most people think Tomatoes are Italian and Potatoes are either Irish or from Idaho, but they're both South American natives! I wonder what did Irish people eat before Potatoes were introduced in about 1600? What was Italian food like before Tomatoes became widely grown for food in Italy sometime in the 1700's?

This message was edited Sep 7, 2006 12:31 PM

(Zone 6b)

Thanks again htop,

So, someone thought the bicolored effect of the green sepals showing between the red petals resembled the bicolored "Texas Star" and hence started calling it Texas Star Hibiscus. I did note that that article does say it's not a Texas native as well. Well that at least explains this interesting common name, but I still wonder when and where people first started using it. Probably somewhere in Texas where it was being sold or perhaps a transplanted Texan somewhere where it is native made this observation and began using the name? Oh well, that's probably a more difficult question to answer. Thanks again htop!

For any who don't know, here's a link to an image of a Texas Star(note the bicolored effect):
http://www.wildwestrevue.com/Media/Texas-Star.gif

San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

I had marked this one closed . . . then re-opened it when htop said she thought it may be some different variety . . . was it ever decided for sure?

Decatur, IL(Zone 5b)

Hello,

I am still interested in some of the seeds from this beautiful thing.

Thanks
Beck

San Antonio, TX(Zone 9a)

Heya Beck . . . I took a big baggie of them to the SA Swap last weekend, but I think I can still get plenty more. Did you ever send a SASE? A few people said they'd send them, but I only got one. And I never got one from you. Not sure if the mail peeps ate it or what?

Decatur, IL(Zone 5b)

You know I think I did but it is no problem I will send out another.

Thanks
Beck

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