SOLVED: What tree is this?

Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

There are a pair of these at an old local cemetery. I thought they were blue ash, but the bark doesn't seem right to me. Hopefully, there is enough detail in these pix that someone can identify it for me.

Thanks,

Scott

Thumbnail by Decumbent
Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

The trunk and bark.

Thumbnail by Decumbent
Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

A little higher up.

Thumbnail by Decumbent
Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

A neighboring relative.

Thumbnail by Decumbent
Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

All the live twigs were way too high to reach, but this dead branch was on the ground nearby, and I think it came from the tree in question.

Thumbnail by Decumbent
Scott County, KY(Zone 5b)

Well, Scott, you continue to thrill and amaze me (even though you wouldn't buy me that Pieris).

Not blue ash (Fraxinus quadrangulata); not ash at all. That would have opposite twigs/buds.

That bark in the very first picture, even with the shadows, is enough to identify this tree that I have been able to observe quite often in my career here. The smooth surface with the occasional "lumpiness" I have not observed in any other species. The second picture absolutely confirmed it.

The third, fourth, and fifth pictures illustrate the rather stark architecture of the branching and twigs, reminiscent of Juglans, Carya, and Gymnocladus. Maybe even some other members of these families, but they 'tis not.

You have the Tree that Grows in Brooklyn, that incredible survivor story that lo these many years has come to infest many the back alley and front yard of the unaware and unenlightened. Fortunately, you also have there the male version, so it probably hasn't traveled far.

Ailanthus altissima, in all it's glory.

Thumbnail by ViburnumValley
Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

John, you know I wondererd that, and if it had been summer perhaps I would have smelled it. I think the foliage would've nailed it for me, as well. I think the main reason why I more or less ruled out Ailanthus is because these are just two, single specimens. No evidence of root suckers about at all. Even though it is a cemetery and they mow it, I would've thought I would've seen shoots. Anyway, thanks for the ID.

Scott

Northumberland, United Kingdom(Zone 9a)

The next task is to bring its vitality status into line with the majority of the other residents . . . :-)

Resin

Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

Resin,

That one took me a minute to get! I'm not always the quickest guy in the world, I'll admit.

Gauging by the size of those trees, they were deliberately planted a long time ago, probably because it seemed appropriate to plant a "Tree of Heaven" in a cemetery. But, yes, you're right. The only correct action is to send that tree to "Arbor" heaven.

Scott

Presque Isle, WI(Zone 3b)

You know, from both of your pictures, this is a magnificent tree, I would from these be tempted to try a few even though they are neither maple, american linden, nor ash. Probably would not achieve that stature in zone 3. I take it that this is to be avoided, but maybe you could enlighten us, you of more temperate zones. Ken

Atmore, AL(Zone 8b)

Since any kind of cut seems to trigger suckering, I wonder if the basal bark treatment would kill them (if done in the right season)?

Baltimore, MD(Zone 7a)

No matter how much I try I would never be able to do that...it is amazing how some can just look at a tree with no leaves and without hesitation identify it....I am in awe again SP.

Northeast Harbor, ME

A microinjection of Roundup might be fun!

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

Can you kill a tree with an injection of roundup? How? I really need to know. Can't explain why. Let's just say I wish to part company with a Morus.rubra in a surreptitious manner.

Baltimore, MD(Zone 7a)

I don't think you can..just cut it down

Snapple snapple snapple! What on earth are you up to! For what it's worth, that tree is probably the Asian M. alba not the mild mannered North American M. rubra. You could drill some holes into it or take the claw end of a hammer and whack out a few good chunks and load the holes with Triclopyr OR you could use your hand axe and whack off bark in a 6" band around the tree and paint the exposed cambium layer with Triclopyr OR you could cut it down to about 12" and paint the stump with Triclopyr but this is one of those trees that based on my experience you can't just cut down. Morus suckers. Not as bad as some species but it suckers. Best to treat it after you do whatever it is you're going to do to it. Poor tree. Snapple's gonna kill it.

Not that I am suggesting you do this but- if you take a few good clean swipes at the bark with your hand axe, you could lift whole pieces of the bark off... apply your happy juice to the freshly exposed surface... then position the piece back where it was using a combination of carpenters glue with rubber cement around the edge. The carpenters glue is great but you need that rubber cement around the perimeter to keep the water out. If you are real careful, you won't hardly be able to tell what you've done unless you know where to look. I'd do this about 2.5 feet off the ground because sooner or later somebody will want to take down the dead tree and a chainsaw would send your pieced-in bark flying.

Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

No, actually you can kill trees with Roundup applied in holes. You need to drill holes into the cambrium and fill with Roundup concentrate. There's not much science on this, since this is not a "labeled" application. Suffice it to say, too little Roundup and you'll have very evident Roundup damage (crinkled, malformed leaves) and not a good, clean death. So, I would err on the side of too many holes and re-applications of Roundup.

Roundup can be used to "finish off" weed trees and brush that you've cut off with a chainsaw. Very soon after cutting the mainstem, paint the fresh stump with a good slathering of Roundup concentrate. It is remarkably effective, and has made removing a forest of Lonicer maackii much more efficient.

Scott

This message was edited Jan 22, 2007 8:10 PM

Glyphosate concentrate would nail the lid on the coffin of M. alba too and come to think of it, Garlon 4 would do it in quite nicely also. Triclopyr is the active ingredient in Ortho's BrushBGon Poison Ivy, Oak, Brush Killer Concentrate. That product should be readily available.

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

Ah Ha! A lurking with the roundup I go, carpenters glue, rubber cement, small drill bit and my favorite axe all in hand. That Morus whatever it is, is toast! Years I have waited for this. Years I tell you. Maniacal laughter trailing off..........

Not so fast... he's right. Regular strength RU isn't going to do it I don't think. You have to use what he told you to use which was concentrated RU or go buy the concentrated BrushBGon. They're both about the same price. And I don't think a small drill bit is going to be good enough either. Try at least a 1/4". You don't even need to drill in that far but if you're going the drill route, you better drill a lot of holes. I use a 30cc slip tip syringe but you can pick up oral syringes at your pharmacy and those would work just as well.

Presque Isle, WI(Zone 3b)

I ask again. Do not, do not, publish good looking pictures of trees you consider invasive. Show us the suckers, show us the seedlings. Ken

Greensboro, AL

Equil: Sounds from the knowledge you have acquired that you have some experience in sereptitious tree-killing.

Nope, no major surreptitious tree killing here. Just my husband's beloved Norway Maple that WAS alive and well on our property spreading its evil spawn ;) He knows I nuked it. The spliced-in bark went flying when he went to down it. Shoulda coulda woulda moved my handiwork up from where he was going to chainsaw it. Next time I'll be more careful in choosing a higher up site to whack away. The rest of the invasive trees I waste with wild abandon but I do so with the consent and knowledge of the land stewards around here. There are lots of volunteers who come together a few hours a month to go out specifically to waste invasive species. We discuss the species first before going out together as a group to locate a few to hone our identification skills. We discuss the controll method chosen and why. Then we go out unto the land and waste as many as we can lay our hands on in 3-4 hours. Everybody contributes to the process whether it be girdling, chainsawing, painting stumps, or removal. Most species we can drop to the ground and leave because they aren't allelopathic and they will create biomass. M. alba can be left on the ground.

Beautiful, BC(Zone 8b)

So I'm confused (nothing new). It was ID'd as Ailanthus and also Morus. Wouldn't it be better to figure out what it is before planning its demise? What if its an Evodia or Aleurites and you've cut the oldest, largest one in the county? It would be murder! I don't think the local residents are too concerned with the tree. It's like a tree killing swarm. Find out the ID, forward to cemetary manager for recommendations.

Greensboro, AL

You've given me some strategies for dealing with the City's chinaberry trees that are spewing seeds all over my property. Lets see: I need a my Black and Decker Alligator, a cordless drill,
a hammer and chisel, a syringe and brush killer, and a flashlight. HAH!

Decumbent's tree was identified as Ailanthus altissima. His tree was never identified as being Morus spp.

Evidently snapple recognized A. altissima as being a highly invasive species in need of eradication.

snapple has a tree she'd like eradicated that she thinks is Morus rubra but she doesn't particularly care what it is, she wants it wasted. My bet is the tree is one of her husband's favorites.

Perfectly logical female train of thought. See a tree in somebody else's thread that qualifies for wasting but is in a public area so one couldn't just go out and waste it even though one would like to. Have a tree you want wasted but don't want to get caught wasting. Request a means by which to waste an undesirable. Get suggestions from female sympathizers. Begin to plot process in mind...

Quoting:
Ah Ha! A lurking with the roundup I go, carpenters glue, rubber cement, small drill bit and my favorite axe all in hand. That Morus whatever it is, is toast! Years I have waited for this. Years I tell you. Maniacal laughter trailing off..........


And lookie here, another female... See many trees that qualify for wasting and begin to dream of wasting them,
Quoting:
Lets see: I need a my Black and Decker Alligator, a cordless drill,
a hammer and chisel, a syringe and brush killer, and a flashlight. HAH!


Psst... same happy juices for M. alba should work well wasting Melia azedarach.

Beautiful, BC(Zone 8b)

Equil, be careful how ya do that and read this article: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/01/th_arch_enemy_b.php

Although I wasn't joking about wasting our Norway Maple and although I don't think snapple is joking about wasting her husband's beloved White/Red Mulberry, I am relatively confident gloria123 was joking about wasting the Chinaberries lining the streets of Greensboro. Wasting an invasive species that is on one's own property and wasting invasive species on public land under the guidance of a land steward are a considerably different than going out and wasting anything by circumventing laws.

Here's what I believe-
http://davesgarden.com/forums/t/648467/

Just read your article, I remember reading that a while ago. If I am not mistaken, she was an older woman who purchased her condo long before the trees grew and obstructed her view. Trees grow, what a concept. What a self serving act to have destroyed those trees.

Incidentally, there were a wave of Mr T laws that swept our Country a while ago. Many are still on the books. I guess people weren't into xeriscaping. A woody that is classified as an invasive species is no longer a tree or a shrub but an invasive species. This means that if you remove a woody invasive species in my County, you don't need to replace it with another woody. This helps promote the removal of invasive species on one's own property while protecting those from somebody pulling a Mr T.

Beautiful, BC(Zone 8b)

LOL. A Mr. T? Can't say I've heard that one. Yes, this person has ruined her reputation in this city. The trees weren't that big and all it blocked was a bit of a view of the rocks at the beach. That Mr. T law would help that guy in California. Nature recently took out way too many old trees: http://www.flickr.com/photos/striatic/362062517/ and I had added this tree under Catalpa speciosa in PF http://www.flickr.com/photos/striatic/362056824/ - these aren't my pics but it shows that mother nature has the last say.

Thumbnail by growin
Cincinnati, OH(Zone 6b)

To clarify things. I have no intention of killing those Ailanthus in the cemetery. Not my property. Not my worry. There's enough of them around that two less isn't going to make much difference anyway.

Scott

Mr T purchased property in Lk Forest Illinois. I think he paid around 5.5 million for his home but it's been a while. The lot was beautiful with many mature trees. Shortly after he moved in, he chose to remove every tree in favor of a more... minimalistic landscape design. To each his own but the community was up in arms. I must admit looking down the street does look somewhat odd in that one can see all these stately homes with beautiful trees and then there is Mr. T's house. For what it's worth, I wouldn't want to own property next door to him or on the same street as him.

So, that's what's at the root of the Mr T laws. And, they are enforced around here.

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

The Morus is half toast. It seemed best to do this in two stages. Mud mixed with saw dust hides small drill holes real well. Pet medicine syringe was juuuuuuuust the right size. Straight Roundup and some VineX for good measure. Magic marker dabbed on any rough exposed edges and ouila! Could have been a sapsucker ! Heh Heh Heh!


Hmmm, "Mud mixed with saw dust hides small drill holes real well". I'll have to remember that one. Certainly solves the problem of spliced-in bark potentially flying in all different directions when it ultimately gets cut down. Thank you for sharing snapple. Gosh, isn't DG just the best for all these little tricks of the trade that can reduce or eliminate marital strife!

FYI, Triclopyr is the active ingredient in VineX. I think you've covered your bases quite nicely.

Greensboro, AL

http://www.dowagro.com/ivm/forestry/prod/pathway.htm

Ladies: Just to round out the tool kit. This is what Lucky_P recommended to nuke paper mulberry on my property---my very own paper mulberries!

Ohhhhhhhhhhhh!
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!

Pathway! Has he no shame! That's a great product. It's RTU and even has dyes in it so you can easily see which areas were painted and which weren't.

Greensboro, AL

Well I guess you would have to camoflauge the dye with mud and sawdust.

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

My, my, aren't we ladies capable of duplicity and cunning !?

It's a good thing I have only this one tree that is a major thorn in my hide. Cause, it was just too easy and way too much fun. I've been doing the dead tree dance ever since.

Greensboro, AL

"duplicity and cunning" I grew up with 5 brothers. went to school at Michigan Tech University 13 girls, some 5000 guys. just for a start. i.e. i had expert instruction.

Holland, OH(Zone 5b)

A 1 to 385 ratio of females to males? How nice! You could just possibly fine one decent guy out of that pool. However that is a topic for a thread not on Dave's Garden. I will refrain from further comment and stick to trees.

This message was edited Jan 23, 2007 4:55 PM

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