First Bloom - Quintana Roo, Mexico MG

Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

This Mexican Morning Glory has finally flowered....191 days after planting. It is from seed I collected in January of this year in Playa del Carmen, Quintana Roo, Mexico. http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/706740/

It is tough, immune to the local rust that will consume my other MGs, but extremely late flowering. The flower is 70 mm ( 2 3/4 inches) across, significantly larger than the local Ipomoea hederacea.

This message was edited Sep 23, 2007 9:21 AM

Thumbnail by atenkley
Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

....here is a front quarter view.

Thumbnail by atenkley
Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

..and a rear quarter view... showing some attractive pink/purple on the ribs.

The local Ipomoea hederacea do not have this pink on the ribs: http://davesgarden.com/tools/journal/showimage.php?eid=126626



...edited to add the link...

This message was edited Sep 23, 2007 9:18 AM

Thumbnail by atenkley
Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

... a closer look at the sepals....they are quite long and only slightly curved... Maybe they become more recurved after forming the seed pod..?

I thought this seed came from a seed pod like this.... http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=3330408

But the area also had seed pods like this.... http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=3330420



This message was edited Sep 23, 2007 9:14 AM

Thumbnail by atenkley
Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

...this is the leaf from the plant as it looks today......

here are leaves from the area of seed collection.... http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=3330414

..and from the area of the less curved sepal seedpod.... http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=3330429

Arlan


...edited to correct a link...

This message was edited Sep 23, 2007 8:58 AM

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(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Arlan - Nice documentation of this MG vine! That's amazing that it took so long to bloom!! I wonder if that is typical of this vine in it's natural enviroment in Mexico?

How much growth is on this vine now? I can't believe it is still going strong after 6 months! Is it a perennial vine?

Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

Becky,

Thanks for the kind words! As to whether this late flowering characteristic is typical .... I really don't know! It seemed to be past it's prime flowering time when I was there. So I really don't know when it is at it's peak in it's local environment.

The plant is quite large, probably 15 to 20 feet long, but I have contained it to a smaller area. The older leaves do show what is probably mite damage, and a few were sacrificed to some chewing creature, probably a caterpillar or something. I have pretty much left it on it's own to see how tough it really is. Boy, would I like some of that blood in my JMGs!

I have another plant started from seed of the straight sepaled seed pod that is a couple months behind this plant. It is still just producing side shoots and no flower buds...

Here is my journal on this particular plant: http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/706740/



This message was edited Sep 23, 2007 9:21 AM

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Since you found the original vine (and seeds) in the wild, I had a feeling that it would produce a nice long vine!

Is this vine an Ipomoea hederacea or an Ipomoea nil?

Are you planning to try to cross it with some of your other cultivars?

Winnipeg, MB(Zone 4a)

Very pretty!!

Jacksonville, AR(Zone 7b)

Arlan, nice flower. Love the colored ribs.

Jackie

scio, oregon, OR(Zone 8a)

I think the sepals make it look like a kind of hederacea, but Ron will come along and tell us for sure.

Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

Thanks everyone for your comments!

Becky, you asked about which species this plant is, and Beth is leaning towards I. hederacea. In the original post about the seeds and such, Ron was of the opinion after looking at the photos of the leaves and seedpods, that I had both I. nil and I. hederacea at this site.

The seeds that I planted that produced this plant were supposed to be from those identified as I. hederacea...... however.... I am not completely confident of my efforts to keep the seeds separate while collecting! I was on vacation and just stuffed the seeds in two different pockets because I thought they (the pods) looked different enough.

After looking at Dr. Yoneda's description and pictures of the Yucatan I.nil he raised.... I'm leaning toward I.nil.

Here is Dr. Yoneda's web page on this Mexican Ipomoea nil: http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/locality/CA_Mexico.html

Here is his picture of it flowering...with curved sepals...: http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/Images/PCD0351/C/68.jpg

Here is a closer look at one of his blooms. If you look carefully at the upper part of the tube, you can see the same purplish coloring that mine shows:. http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/Images/PCD0351/C/79.jpg

I know it is not definitive identifying from pictures and colors... but he also stated that his plant started flowering the first of October.... of course, a I. hederacea from that area may do the same thing.

Beth, I think you are correct in that we will hear from Ron sometime in the future with additional comentary and opinions!

I just wish I was home more and had some I.nil still blooming.... I'd do most anything to get some of those virus resistent genes into the horticultural JMGs! Guess I'll have to plan for next year....

Arlan

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Thanks Arlan for answering my question. I have to agree with you that it looks more like I. hederacea from the photos of Dr. Yoneda. Regardless, it sure is beautiful!!!

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

Arlan - So nice of you to keep track after I 'almost went blind' trying to ID your original plants and now your not sure exactly what(!) seeds this current plant originates from...


just kidding but I think I am going to have to start 'charging extra' for these borderline brainwracking wild nil /hederacea ID's...

Okay let's begin the process...

I'm quite sure of the initial ID's that I did on the plants that you originally posted based soly upon sepal structure...and the difference in the seeds(which I did not see at first) backed up the impressions of the shape of the sepals over the course of their developemental stages...

So,I have to approach this 'as if' I'm doing a new ID...

I'll cut to the chase though and say that I think the plant you are showing here
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=4007810
remains Ipomoea hederacea...the leaves aren't nearly as important...

I don't think the sepals match what Dr.Yoneda shows on his site...I think the 'curvature' on Dr.Yonedas I.nil is an anomaly...

I'll bet that when the plant that you are showing and suggesting is an I.nil produces ripened seedpods that the sepals will be readily identifiable as I.hederacea...

The sub-bracts( both at the base of the pedicel and the larger peduncular bracts) on I.nil do not display the type of curvature that is now present on your plant in question and are not present on the sub-bracts of Dr.Yonedas Yucatan I.nil...

Since I did a botanist cohort who was revising the flora of Texas a favor last summer by figuring out the herbarium specimemens of the borderline I.hederacea and I.nil >I know what to look for...

ID rendered...let the plants continued developement(including the seed characteristics) show me right or wrong...also you could try crossing it with any I.nil and/or I.hederacea that you may now have growing to see what it will cross with...

Thanks for helping to keep my botanical samurai 'sword' honed...

TTY,...

Ron

P.S. Since I've been looking at my Ipomoea hederacea and Ipomoea nil (in the midst of my own researches) very closely many times a day(!!!) >I'd bet any japanese asagao sensei who thought different and wanted to enjoy alittle fun(!) wagering...>rubbing hands together wickedly and with equally demonic laughing leer(!)...

Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

Ron, Thanks for reinforcing and validating my seed gathering (and separating) skills as opposed to my identification skills!

Hopefully, the plant will have multiple flowers when I return home this weekend. The local Ipomoea hederacea population should have a few flowers yet, so I may get a chance to do a test cross or two.

I have one plant from seed of the other area which had the pods you identified as Ipomoea nil. It has not flowered nor shown any buds yet. I'll keep my eye on it, too. Pictured is one of it's leaves... - Arlan

Thumbnail by atenkley
Mesilla Park, NM

Great work, Arlan.

Great info, Ron.
A.

Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

Here is an update and confirmation, once again, why we listen to Ron! The seed pods developing clearly show the recurved sepals...more so than the flowers!

This Ipomoea hederacea from Playa del Carmen, Quintana Roo, Mexico is clearly a superior strain when compared to the local population. The plant is much more robust, immune to rust and has significantly larger and darker colored flowers that have a hint of purple. It just doesn't bloom as quickly.

Arlan

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(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Nice vine, Arlan. Really!! I like the color of the blue blooms. A little different than most of the blues that I see. If it is resistant to rust and other diseases, that is a huge plus!!! If this awesome vine of yours produces lots of seeds, I'd sure love to trade for 2-3 seeds to give it a go here in southern-central Florida. If it is Ipomoea hederacea, then it could be crossed with other I. hederacea cultivars? This is a good one to use for cross pollinating if it is as hardy as it is believed to be. Is this also considered a perennial vine? (I know I asked that question above, but didn't see an answer.) I am still learning the different characteristics of the different species of MGs. So please forgive my dumb questions. I'm trying to wrap my brain around all of this information ..... which is far more than I would have ever dreamed of for Morning Glory vines! LOL!

Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

Hi Becky,

I have enjoyed the simplicity of its flowers also! I am also attracted to the purple ribs on the reverse side of the blooms.

I appologize if I overlooked a question above! I'll try and answer you current and past questions:

Quoting:
Is this also considered a perennial vine?


Ipomoea hederacea is typically considered an annual vine. this is the first year I have grown this strain as I collected it last January! It certainly has outlasted all other Ipomoea vines I grew this year...and is still going. Whether it would continue to grow in a frost free area, I do not know. One reason it is probably still growing as it is just now starting to set seed.

Quoting:
If it is Ipomoea hederacea, then it could be crossed with other I. hederacea cultivars?


Yes, this strain should cross with other Ipomoea hederacea strains. I personally do not have any other I. hederacea selections, other than locally collected strains. I don't know of any readily available I. hederacea named strains either, other than typical small blue flowered types...others may. I think Ron believes that Ipomoea hederacea is involved in the parentage of the MiniBar Rose/Beni Chidori complex, so maybe there are additional hybridization possibilities there....?! If one is interested in developing Ipomoea hederacea selections, I believe this one would be a great start! I do have a heart shaped leaf strain that blooms almost immediately, http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/717680/ but the challenge in crossing this with the Mexican strain is synchronizing blooms! I have not tried....I would probably start the cordate leaved strain very late to have it flowering, and not dead, when the Mexican strain comes into bloom.

Quoting:
If this awesome vine of yours produces lots of seeds, I'd sure love to trade for 2-3 seeds to give it a go here in southern-central Florida.


Becky, I would be more than happy to share seeds of this plant. I'm not certain how many I'll get matured before first frost....which usually can occur anytime after mid November. I would be interested to see how it would do in your climate as well! I'll take a look at how many original collected seed I have, as that may be a possibility also.

Arlan

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

Hi Arlan - Well,glad to see that the plant agrees with the subtle observations of my initial assessment...see if the features of your plants correlate with some additional observations that I've noticed regarding Ipomoea hederacea and Ipomoea nil as shared in the thread here
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/777395/

You could store the pollen from the earlier flowering strain until you need it for the later flowering strain...dry the pollen in the sun and keep it dry and cool...

I have a reddish flowered strain of Ipomoea hederacea that I've been hoping to multiply as a relatively pure strain and there was a member who had gotten a pink I.hederacea as displayed in the post here
http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/fp.php?pid=3814029

The flowers usually range from a very light sky blue to darker metallic shades...some with stars but most without any starring...there is a rare white strain that I have not yet located seeds of...

Ipomoea barbatisepala is genetically very close and is definitely a US native...
I.hederacea is usually pronounced to be an alien species but Daniel F.Austin has revised his opinion on that and has declared that after studying the plant indepth throughout Arizona that Ipomoea hederacea is a bona fide US native >at least to Southern Arizona...

TTY,...

Ron

Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

Ron, I did read your description of the subtle differences of the sepal characteristics of Ipomoea hederacea and nil. That was very helpful and I went back and reviewed my original post describing the collection of seed and now see another reason why you called one nil and the other hederacea. I've got a plant of the nil seed growing right now, but it has not bloomed yet. No buds are evident, so it may not make it before frost....

Here is a close up of the hederacea sepals showing the characteristics you described. I think a cross section of these sepals would create a cresent shape, which is I believe what you refer to as the "inner edges of the sepals turned up."

Arlan

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Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

Arlan - You got it kiddo...I'm giving away so many of my species ID 'tricks' that pretty soon you won't need me anymore...

TTY,...

Ron

P.S. - By the way great closeup photo(!)...

This message was edited Oct 15, 2007 2:14 AM

scio, oregon, OR(Zone 8a)

I find the nil/hederacea IDs quite challenging....
Here is a photo of both of the seedpods side by side.

Thumbnail by ByndeweedBeth
Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

Hi Beth,

I obviously do too! Ron's latest little tidbit really helps though.

I am surprised to see such a well preserved corolla on the Ipomoea nil seed pod. Around here, the time it takes to get a pod that size would give the weather more than enough time to beat it to a pulp and knock it off! Was this plant inside?

Arlan

scio, oregon, OR(Zone 8a)

Yes, it's inside! You guessed it! I think it's still hanging on...

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

I had mentioned previously, the characteristics of the sub-bracts at the base of the pedicel and peduncle can be a very helpful identification aid...

TTY,...

Ron

Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

This shows the developing corolla as very green tissue before the pigments are present or visible.

Thumbnail by atenkley
Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

...and this hopefully is tomorrow's flower...

Arlan

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scio, oregon, OR(Zone 8a)

can't wait to see it, don't forget to post the photo!

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

Nice crisp photo on the green corolla tissue developing...

Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

It started storming about 2 AM....this is the result!

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Mesilla Park, NM

Very Nice Arlan, that color is nice and solid too.
A.

scio, oregon, OR(Zone 8a)

It still has a certain distressed beauty!

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

Arlan - Have you measured the tube length and the diameter of the corolla yet(?) for comparison to other I.hederacea...just wondering...


Nice looking flower...

TTY,...

Ron

Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

...here is one of yesterday's blooms..

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Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

Ron, yes, I measured the corolla width on the first bloom (70mm) as indicated in the first post. Today, there are three blooms, measuring 60,60, and 59mm, about four week later in the diminishing season.

Is there a standard method to measure tube length? If I measure from the base of the sepals to the rim of the corolla, it seems dificult to get repeatable measurements due to some moving targets! Now I am just using a straight ruler and not a caliper.... I seem to get results very close to the corolla width....like it could fit in a cube....but I'm not confident in this dimension.

Are there two fixed points commonly used to measure tube length for Ipomoea?

...here is a mg shot of one of the blooms today..

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Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

...and a final portrait... Can you tell there is really not much else blooming in the garden today!

Arlan

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Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

Arlan - The measurement from the base of the tube to the corolla tip would be the length of the entire perianth flower which is also a worthy specification as is the length of the corolla limb from the top of the tube to the outer edge...you would think that the diameter x .5 would yield the same as the corolla length(from tube top to outer corolla edge) but since the corolla is not flat and corolla tapers vary > a separate measurement is warranted...the tube (per se) would only be the very base of the inner flower towards the top (of the tube) before it starts to significantly flare out...

I often use the somewhat rough analogy of the tube being like the esophagus of an alimentary canal with the throat including the top of the esophagus and back of the mouth and the the rest of the limb somewhat like a mouth and prolapsed(!) big lips...

The entire funnelform perianth is also sometimes considered as an entire tube but in this particular case I am referring to the portion of the perianth from the lowest portion of the base to the point approximately at where the primary ribs would start to differentiate coinciding with the basal portions of the primary and secondary folds of the corolla...

I've seen botanists disagree on how to measure sepals correctly so I'm providing an explanation and conception of the term perianth tube in the way I am referring to it...

http://www.cs.umb.edu/~whaber/Monte/Plant/Conv/conv-part.html

The 'reversed' tubes are more accurately something like a prolapsing of the tube tissue to various degrees at some point along the tube length...since it is often that most of the tube is still facing the usual direction and proceeding upward away from the lower clayx...

The tube is often measured by inserting a very thin ruler into the flower,but we all don't have that type of very thin ruler,so measuring from the base of the sepals to the top of the tube before it flares out from the outside often suffices...you could trim off the flared portion of the corolla limb and/or wait until the flower has pollinated and remove the entire corolla from it's hold by the lower inner calyx...

TTY,...

Ron

Robertsdale, AL(Zone 8b)

Thank you very much, Ron.

I am thinking of making a type of depth guage to standardize a measurement from the line across the mouth of the tube (throat) to the bottom of the tube. This length in conjunction with the width of the tube at this same line would define somewhat the shape of the tube as well.

I can see possible value of these measurements in my "Princess" project as well.

Arlan - leaving for the shop to ponder available materials and methods....

Winnipeg, MB(Zone 4a)

Amazing!

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