This mornings find

Kittrell, NC(Zone 7b)

Look at what I found this morning!! I do believe that this one is my favorite.

Emma, this is from a mixture that you sent. I did manage to grab a couple of seeds before Mom went out the door with the rest of them...again! LOL!!

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Aschaffenburg, Germany

Hi, I wonder do they have variegated leaves or is this the result of spider mite infestation.

Take a good look spider mite is very tiny to the nake eye.


Kittrell, NC(Zone 7b)

Maybe this will be my favorite. Just don't mind the rust, I have given up on trying to control it. this one is Fuji Musume.

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Kittrell, NC(Zone 7b)

This has been my only dissapointment this year. I bought this seeds that were supposed to be sunrise ser. but this is what I got instead. Pretty but not what I wanted.

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Kittrell, NC(Zone 7b)

Don't have a clue as to what this one is. Here is a close up.

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Kittrell, NC(Zone 7b)

gofast, it has variegated leaves. I just hope that I don't have mites too!! I know that I have a bad rust problem and just don't know how to control it.
Also, I am not getting any seeds. Don't know what the problem there is either. I guess because it has been so dry here for awhile the bees aren't buzzin'. But boy, the ants and the grasshoppers are loving all my JMG.
Here is one that I got from Ronnie. Very pretty.Kawaru.

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Wilmington, DE(Zone 7a)

You've got some beauties there! The Sunrise Serenade NOT appears to be one of the Grandpa Ott's varieties. It is a huge seed maker.


Aschaffenburg, Germany

If it's too dry, MGs don't set seed easily.


Jacksonville, AR(Zone 7b)

Pretty blooms Melanie

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Love your Arbor! Looks beautiful! And I am enjoying your blooms very much! Thanks for brightening my day with your flower photos! :-)

Kittrell, NC(Zone 7b)

Thank you all!

(Ronnie), PA(Zone 6b)


Jacksonville, TX(Zone 8a)

Melanie -

Great Blooms . . . I can't wait to see how your others do.

Try this for your Rust problem.
Pinch off all of the really bad leaves because they won't get any better and dispose of them immediately [don't drop them on the ground] then wash your hands BEFORE you touch anything. The vines will produce new leaves. Then if you have spider mites, blast them hard with the water hose. I am learning that is just about the best way to get rid of those little monsters. Also, they drown easily *-*
Continue to blast then with water every day or so for about a week to kill any remaining eggs that might hatch.
This is good information about Spider Mites

Also, you can feed your MGs Bayer All-In-One Rose & Flower Care Concentrate which is a systemic and feed AND one of the diseases it controls is Rust.
Ron has also suggested to use Copper Sulfate for Rust control.

Then just for grins spray your foliage with a mixture of Miracle Gro Bloom Buster/Epsom Salts and Joy liquid detergent. Mix all in a plastic spray bottle that attaches to the end of your water hose and see if that doesn't help the problem. This mixture will make your leaves a lush green.


Here is one of my recent photos of my Velvet Plum

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(Zone 7a)

Scrumptious MG and garden photos, Meag - you're inspiring me to fight off the deer more energetically. Emma, wacha think about adding a rotten egg and hot pepper to the Joy detergent and Bloom Buster/Epsom salts mixture?

Jacksonville, TX(Zone 8a)

Hi Blue . . .

Hmmmm Rotten Eggs and Hot Pepper.
That is a new one for me.
Have you tried it or know of anyone that has tried it?


Kittrell, NC(Zone 7b)

OK I'll try it! I'll let you guys know how it works out. Thanks so very much.
Emma your Velvet Plum is just beautiful!

This message was edited Jul 20, 2008 3:05 AM

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

What would the rotten egg add (?)...sulphur(?) pepper extract = capsaicin may deter some animals, but is actually eaten by many insects...

I'd suggest using the copper sulphate which already has sulphur in it and is more than likely a bit more pleasant to use...

(Zone 7a)

Emma & Ron, yup - the rotten egg & hot pepper, along with dish detergent, have been used successfully by some as a spray to make plants taste/smell bad to deer.

But there seems to be consensus that that and other methods short of very tall barriers and/or electric fencing become less useful as deer become more and more desperate and numerous. As design elements, these types of barriers and fencing are very hard to incorporate into an old, established garden that was not originally designed to incorporate them. This is an aesthetic disaster in more ways than one.

Meag, apologies for taking your thread off track. Your MG and garden pics are so inspiring to keep gardening against this latest adversity. So far the vines from some of your seeds are doing well in trays near the house.

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Ron - Do you know if the copper sulphate is poisonous to wildlife? Since I garden for Butterflies and Hummingbirds that drink nectar from the blooms, I'm not sure how safe it is to use in my garden.

Jacksonville, TX(Zone 8a)

Thanks Melanie . . .
. . . and do let us know if you get your Rust under control.
Again, when your leaves have the Rust it can not be reversed so I recommend to keep pinching off the bad leaves and like Ron said use the Copper Sulfate which should help with the new developing foliage as well as the foliage that hasn't been attacked. Also, Rust does spread so when you do remove any leaves BE SURE to dispose of the leaves immediately/don't let them fall to the ground/ and wash your hands or you will spread it to healthy foliage.

Blue . . .
I don't have deer since I live in town, however, deer are all over our area and you pretty much need to live in the surrounding woody areas to have these guys visit, along with gophers, armadillos and rabbits to keep out of your gardens. Rabbits will do a real number on Morning Glories too. They eat the entire vine as far up as they can reach.

Ron . . .
The Copper Sulfate should be mixed 7% - Right? Or stronger for Rust?
How do you successfully use this to treat Rust [been meaning to ask you that]. I assume you spray it direct to the foliage? As well as on the entire ground area?
I use the Copper Sulfate faithfully when I germinate all of my seeds for damping off no matter the time of year.

So far, fingers crossed, I don't have Rust this year. Last year I did and what a mess it was. Also, this year we have fed every single MG with Bayer All-In-One Rose & Flower Care Concentrate as a "preventative" - so maybe that is working to keep the Rust away ???
Plus, so far I don't have near the bug problem as last year. The only one I'm having a problem with is a little small black bug ID'd as Flea Beetles (Coleoptera: Chrysomelidae; subfamily Galerucinae, tribe Alticini). Strange too is this is the very first year I have seen these bugs ever!
Here is link to ID with photos of the Flea Beetles on my plant. They are tiny, but they can do some serious damage

Becky . . .
I will let Ron answer your question, but from what I understand it IS poisionious - period!
I think it was on your thread where I put a link to the Copper Sulfate that explained. I'll see if I can find that post.


(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Thanks, Emma! I know that it IS poisonous, I believe I didn't word my question correctly. I am wondering if the nectar from the blooms being treated with CS could poison the wildlife? That is a real concern for me. And if so, I wonder if there are any safer products out there to use instead. (I understand that CS is probably the most effective way to treat rust.)

I, too, would be interested in finding out how to treat rust with CS. I am honestly thinking I may have to go back to growing just a few MGs that I am particularly fond of in pots which I can cover with a sheer mess cloth to keep the flying wildlife from nectaring from the blooms if indeed the nectar could be tainted with CS.

With all the rain we have had this summer, the rust went on a rampage and I was totally unsuccessful in containing it. I am trying to determine if I can treat those areas that I grew the MGs in or would it require much more ... such as treating my entire yard? Does rust spores live in the ground until a host is grown or is it seasonal or what? I really am at a loss for how to tackle this fungus.

I have problems with bugs as well, but not like the rust. I would take the bugs any day over the rust! (sigh)

Jacksonville, TX(Zone 8a)

Becky . . .

I don't think I am qualified to answer your question without researching.
And, you have a good question that I too would like to know more about.
I haven't been keeping up with the MG Forum very well, but I do remember that Frank posted some interesting information on Rust not long ago.

I too was thinking I might have to do a lot of treating this year because of the battle that I had with it last year - but so far so good. No Rust on my MGs. I honestly believe that a lot of this [if not entirely] may have to do with the "Pretreatment" using the Bayer products. I also believe that is why I don't have the problem with bugs as last year as well. Every single MG that I have planted this year got a feed of Bayer Advanced 2 in 1 Systemic Flower and Rose Care Granules and Fish Emulsion when each went in the ground. Then, Fish Emulsion every week for at least 2-weeks. Then after about 4 weeks, they were fed Bayer All-In-One Rose & Flower Care Concentrate.

You might try the Bayer products on your next MGs to see if you can tell a difference in Rust and bugs. Also, Bayer is coming out with more and more garden products - and I have to admit that so far I swear by them.


(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Emma - Thanks for your insight. I did try the Bayer treatment with all of the new starts along my picket fence. I thoroughly soaked those areas after planting the seeds with this treatment. I did not however follow up with it because of my concern again about spraying the leaves and possibly getting it on the blooms. My biggest fear is poisoning the hummers that come into my yard. It took me almost 4 years to get them to come to my garden. I would never intentionally do anything that would jeopardize their health. So that is a huge concern whenever I spray my plants. When watering chemicals into the ground I am concerned as well. I am concerned as to how much those chemicals travel to the stems, leaves, and blooms of the plants and possibly the nectar. It would be nice to see some actual data concerning this from some of these companies that produce these products.

I live near citrus groves and there is some research currently ongoing because of the high number of birth defeats in children of migrant workers who pick the fruit. There is strong belief that the chemicals from the spraying of the fruit trees gets into these men and women through their skin while brushing up against the trees while they are picking the fruit. There is belief that this ultimately affects the reproductive organs of those workers sometimes producing children with varying degrees of disabilities. So smaller creatures would be even more at risk I wonder?

I am constantly ... mentally weighing what I should do, which is why I have been relunctant to use chemicals regularly. I do use the fertilizers, but I don't see the concerns about them being as dangerous. I honestly don't know what to do.

This message was edited Jul 20, 2008 5:20 PM

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

I apologize for taking meag's thread off track here. Perhaps we should start a new thread about this topic?

Jacksonville, TX(Zone 8a)

Bayer All-In-One Rose & Flower Care Concentrate . . .

Jerry just reminded me that last year when we had the severe problem with Rust that he DID treat the MGs with the Bayer All-In-One that seemed to arrest further spread of the Rust, but too much damage had been done. The vines were TOTALLY covered with Rust. The All-In-One didn't seem to kill what was already there but it seemed to stop the spread to the new growth after the treatment.

Also, there is a good chance that this treatment from last year had a residual effect of what is growing this year.


Jacksonville, TX(Zone 8a)

Becky . . .

I think starting a new thread would be wonderful information. However, don't forget that Melanie's Rust problem is what started our thoughts in trying to help her get her Rust problem under control as well as yours.


Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

Emma - You stated
"I will let Ron answer your question, but from what I understand it IS poisionious - period!"

I disagree strongly...especially with the emphasis on the 'period' part which implies alot...

To say that copper sulphate is poisonous >period (!) would imply that it is always (!) poisonous and / or cannot be used safely...and I strongly disagree with that supposition...

I am extremely conscious about what chemicals I put in my body and what I add into the environment...

I have used neem oil,diatomaceous earth and rarely malathion...I never use anything (!) else...I would never even consider using anything like roundup to get rid of any weeds...

Becky - Copper sulphate when used as directed is safe to use on edible (!) crops within 1 day after application and that is ALOT safer than most other treatments...see how many product applications are safe to use immediately or within 1 day of application on edible crops...not many...(!)

The copper sulphate functions as an external application and not enough is actually absorbed into the tissues of the plants to cause harm to birds ...

Copper sulphate is ineffective when easily washed off by the rain and this would indicate that not enough is absorbed by the plant to act as a fungus deterrent ...

The copper sulphate would have to get into the nectar in order for it to be toxic to nectar feeders and if you were to spray while the flowers are absent and / or otherwise closed it won't get into the nectar...

Chemicals that are sprayed into open (!) flowers cause harm to nectar feeders...

The toxicity related to copper sulphate is usually related to high concentrations in water where it is toxic to aquatic creatures who are literally bathed in it...

Copper sulphate is used by mixing 4-6 ozs (from a 7% concentration ) dissolved into a gallon of water and this is then used as a spray to fungal / rust affected areas...

Many of the huge number of chemicals used on fruit trees are extremely toxic,although when used as directed by comparison, copper sulphate is relatively safe for usage on edible fruit and vegetables right away...

I have found that what is listed as the supposedly inert ingredients are often very active and responsible for the action of a product,especially a chemical one and since the inert ingredients are supposed to be inert,the manufacturer is not obligated to disclose what they are or tell you what they do because they are supposedly 'inert' and therefore mostly irrelevant to the effectiveness of the product,of course if they were truly 'irrelevant' than why are they in there (?!) can spend your life researching this and never find all of the answers...

I am very interested to use as few toxic chemicals as possible as per ingesting them myself and / or introducing them into the environment...although modern life and production methods virtually preclude removing toxic chemicals from our environment...

I do try to use products that have the least harmful effect on myself and / or other creatures...

The term toxicity is a relative term and can vary with the particulars of each situation...

Caffeine and nicotine are nerve poisons...nicotine is used as an insecticide on tomatoes...and if the amount of nicotine in 1 cigarette were completely absorbed it would be enough to kill a human...but, 'luckily' the total amount of nicotine in a cigarette is not completely absorbed...

Potting soil is always pretreated with various chemicals by the 'manufacturers' to help prevent problems,but this is not listed on the bags of soil...

Virtually everything that is manufactured and that we all use everyday is manufactured with and resultantly contains various toxins...

PVC contains dioxin...the softer the pvc (as in tubing used in most hospitals) the more dioxin it contains as the dioxin is used in the softener...additionally dioxins are produced by burning PVC...

The poisons in PVC have been strongly implicated in the deaths of patients who have weak systems or systems that are very compromised including the elderly,infants and victims of shock...

PVC products containing dioxin are used in many aspects of everyday life,but eventually hospitals are expected to change to Dioxin free tubing,but this may be a long time coming...

Here are the links to copper sulphate related this to most other gardening compounds that are used and be sure to look up every chemical listed as active and inactive ingredients...then calculate the combined effects of all ingredients...;year=2007;volume=11;issue=2;spage=74;epage=80;aulast=Saravu



P.S. - Once we went past the 'tree' of pure 'innocent' animal nature and developed a conscience, we were doomed to ponder 'forever'...armed with the 'fruit' / thoughts i.e., awareness and knowledge of 'right' and wrong'...and no birds nest,no fox hole, no Where to lay our heavy Heads...

Kittrell, NC(Zone 7b)

Just for everyones information, I live in a very small town. I went to both Walmart and Lowes, couldn't find Bayer's at either place.
I happened to have a bottle of neem oil. I stripped all the infected leaves off. Then I sprayed with neem. When I thought that I had sprayed it well, I sprayed just one more time, just to make sure. Poor little thing has only about five or six leaves right now.
My fingers are crossed. Maybe this will do the job!!
Thank you so very much for all the information!

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Ron - I can not begin to tell you how very much I appreciate your post above. THANK YOU!!! You have done a great deal of research and I am so grateful that you are sharing it here. Your post above should be added to the sticky!!! (Right, Karen?)

To be honest, I was getting to the point that I was afraid I might have to give up growing MGs except for a select few every year (grown in pots).

So ... I have 2 more questions concerning CS ...

1) What product do you use? I will most likely have to order it online because I don't know if it is sold locally.

2) What kind of applications do you suggest for someone like me who has had a rust infestation to start over again for preparing the "same" ground as well as periodic treatments? Should I spray/soak/water the ground with a CS mix before I plant my next group of seeds? Should I soak the seeds in it? And how often should I treat my vines after the seeds are planted and the vine starts to grow?

Any and all advise is genuinely appreciate! I can't thank you enough!!!

I just thought of another question.

I am getting thunder storms off and on. How long does the CS need to remain on the leaves to be effective? You mentioned it washes off easily. Since I have never used CS, I don't know how long and what results to expect. I realize that I should remove and safely discard all infected leaves into trash bags, but this fungus appears to spread very easily and quickly. So what method do you recommend that I use to try to prevent another outbreak of this nasty fungus?

This message was edited Jul 21, 2008 10:31 AM

Jacksonville, TX(Zone 8a)

Ron . . .

Thanks for clearing up that Copper Sulphate is not poisonous. I have absolutely no idea why I thought it was - and all this time have been trying to avoid using it as a direct spray.
Now I know!

Reading your links, great information that this is also used to repel and kill slugs and snails

Another question:
The first product we used was a Blue crystal-like powder and I no longer have the container with that product name.
Then couldn't find the same product last time so we purchased the only Copper Sulfate that we could find which was Copper Sulfate Crystals - By Crystal Blue Premium Aquatic Chemicals and sold by Sanco Industries, Inc. Fort Wayne, Indiana
Click on ‘Products’ and what I have is the last two items

The ingredients are Copper Sulfate Pentaphydrate 99.0% and Other Ingredients 1.0%.

Do I have the right stuff?

Melanie . . .
I will look forward to hearing about how your Rust problem goes.
It is very hard to find the Bayer products at this time of year which is why I usually buy more than I need in the spring when the shelves are full.


(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Emma - Thanks for mentioning about the slugs and snails and your own experience locating CS.

I would be very interested to know more about the Bayer product too. I believe this is a relatively NEW product that has only been out a year or two, correct? I wouldn't know where to begin to research it. It sounds great, but is it okay to use around wildlife? Can it be used on veggies and other edible plants. If not, then I would be relunctant to try it. It sounds to me like it is in fact absorbed into the plant tissue.

I know that we can NOT get away from chemicals entirely in this day and age unless we live in some remote area that hasn't been exposed to such a degree as most developed areas. But I sure don't want to add to the toxins if I can help it!

Ron - YOU ROCK!!!!

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Meag - If you are treating your vines for rust, I don't think the Neem oil will help. I believe that is used to help treat bug attacks (pests).

Ron has me hanging by this thread for more information ...

This message was edited Jul 21, 2008 10:56 AM

Jacksonville, TX(Zone 8a)

You are very welcome Becky . . .

It appears that Copper Sulfate is used for many things from the link that Ron gave us [and I am still reading the information]

including this information at the same link
"Some of the diseases that are controlled by this fungicide include mildew, leaf spots, blights and apple scab"

. . . and mentions using it for seed treatment, which is what I was referring to above when I said that I use it faithfully for 'any' seed that I germinate no matter the time of year.
I have been using this for damping off since Ron told me about this treatment some time ago. I don't recall if Ron said anything to me about soaking the seeds or not. What I have been doing is after my seeds have germinated and I am planting them in a small container until I plant outside, I spray the top of the soil with Copper Sulfate diluted to 7% before I place the seeds in the soil.
Makes me wonder if this treatment has been a factor in that I haven't had rust problems this year ????

Yes, the Bayer Garden Products are relatively new.
Here is their link with all products
I don't know why they don't mention this product for Rust control in their information. It is not listed on the front of the container but is listed on the back side.

Hopefully the answer to your question about how safe it is to use is at their site. I haven't read about all of their products yet. Also, I would think you could write Bayer and directly ask them.

I will also mention that bees are all over my MGs, so it appears not to bother them. Since it is a systemic the bugs that eat the plant and leaves are what this will kill.


Edited to add:

Now, I am wondering if it is a good idea to treat the area when the MG seed/plant is actually planted in the ground as a "PREVENTATIVE" for Rust Control ????
Maybe pouring a mixed solution into the soil ???
Ron, any thoughts on this ???

Also Edited to add:

Re: The Bayer Products - last year and this year, they sell like crazy and as Melanie mentioned she could not find the product. That is because they are sold out and not that they don't carry it. So there are lots of folks using these products. In fact, my last purchase a couple of weeks ago of the 2 in 1 was the very last one on the shelf.

This message was edited Jul 21, 2008 10:20 AM

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

You know me, I have NO patience. I had to go web searching for fungicide products composed of 7% CS:

And this site was very interesting because it lists how many warnings and dangers per product:

I am sure there are more out there, but it is nice to see that there are products available. I will of course wait to hear what Ron suggests. :-)

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

And ... I may be thinking too much, but ...

The area that I planted all my seeds in were originally new beds just for my MGs. After reading that Pine trees can be a host to rust, it kinda floored me. Why? Other than having pine trees all around me in my neighborhood, I also used pine bark for my mulch in that area! Ugh! (Reccomended because of the terminte problem common in Florida!) I did not know before this that Pine trees could be hosts for rust. Which may explain why my vines started out doing great from the new composted beds and then within a month and a half were fast showing signs of rust! Everywhere. I wonder if it would be better for me to use cypress mulch instead? It is very hot in most of my yard and the plants seem to do much better with a layer of mulch over the garden beds.

Jacksonville, TX(Zone 8a)

Becky . . .
Great find
This sounds like it is it!
And, you can order on line.

Now, to wait to see what product Ron says we are really supposed to use.

Becky . . .
Using Cypress Mulch will be another item for Ron to address. It is my understanding that it does not decompose properly and shouldn't be used . . .
Ron ???

This year I used Eucalyptus mulch for the first time and love it.


Wilmington, DE(Zone 7a)

I have read that the rust spores exist in the soil, and are conveyed to plants after heavy rains; the spores are moved to the plant from the splash resulting from large raindrops hitting the soil near the plant. The solution: put a few inches of high quality compost on the garden soil to act as a barrier and break the cycle of rust infection. I think you have to do the compost layer first thing in the spring when plants are put out in the ground. Might be worth a try?

Whew, talk about major hijacking of a thread! LOL


Thumbnail by Gerris2
(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Thanks, Emma. I am still a newbie gardener and haven't a clue about which mulch to use. I know they sell Eucalyptus mulch. Interesting information. :-)

I await Ron's advice on all of this as I know he researches everything extensively. I am really naive about all of this. But I am sure getting an education and I sooooo appreciate it! :-)

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Thanks to meag (thread originator for bringing this topic up!). Sometimes it's newbies that ask the right questions! :-)

Joseph - Thank you for the information about rust spores. I may have to do a bit of an overhaul in those garden beds along my picket fence before planting more MG seeds. Food for thought!

I love learning all about this stuff! Y'all are awesome!

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

OK, Joseph!! I had to slam on my breaks when I just looked at your photo again. LOL! What MG cultivar is that in your photo??? It is beautiful!!! Does it have those heart-shaped leaves that I see in the photo! What a stunner!!

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