This mornings find

(Zone 7a)

Becky, Ron nailed the key to a worthwhile cross between Ipomoea hederacea and I. nil: we need to find a rust-resistant strain. I wonder if Atenkley might like to trade for a few of his rust-resistant seeds, if he was able to harvest any? It's my understanding that usually I. hederacea can be a nuisance because of its tendency to harbor the rust disease and spread it.

I have a feeling that an awful lot of crosses might need to be attempted before a successful one might result, and would not want to waste any of his seed myself.

---------------------------

I have not seen significant rust damage in my garden on Ipomoea alba, I. aquatica, I. batatas 'Margarita' (spelling?), I. hederifolia 'lutea', I. leptophylla (although it never thrived for me), I. muelleri, I. pandurata (has set many buds In Da Shade! - Ron), I. quamoclit, I. setosa, I. sloteri, I. tricolor 'Heavenly Blue', I. turbinata, Convolvulus tricolor, Convolvulus mauritanicus (store-bought clone - not sure about harvesting seeds from this one), and Evolvulus 'Blue Daze'. That's 3 genera, which leaves approximately 47 other genera to explore within the morning glory family for glories to grow with possibly less rust issues.

I had no idea how beautiful I. nil cultivars could be before visiting this forum one day and asking if anyone wanted to trade; neither did I have a clue about all the other kinds of impossibly beautiful glories there were within family Convolvulaceae until I started paying attention to the threads here: Another way to beat a dependency on pesticides is to keep an open mind about what it means for a flower to be beautiful; that is, be ready to experiment with the unknown.

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Karen - Thanks for the clarification on the Ipomoea hederacea possibly being a carrier of rust. Hmmm .. I didn't realize that! Maybe not worth my pursuing, then. I do know that many of the I. purpurea I have grown are rust resistant. But what would it take to cross that with the I. nils? Impossible?

Here is my plan ... and others are welcome to try this as well. I have some I. nil seeds that are tan. Many species have dark seeds. (Not all of course, but many like I. purpurea.) When I was collecting seeds this time, I found seeds that were crossed. How do I know? Because some of the pods had all light seeds except one dark seed or all dark seeds and one light seed. Or in a couple of cases, a couple of the pods had a seed that was half and half. You can bet I will be growing those out!!! :-) It was very easy to just "see" the cross by looking at the seed! Rather than growing out hundreds or maybe even thousands of seeds to get a good cross. It will enable me to narrow it down to grow only a certain few seeds.

I know others here already know this little trick. I just discovered it by accident. So that gave me the idea to try to create a rust resistent cross. Once one is created (years later??? lol), then it could be crossed with other I. nils to eventually create rust-resistent I. nils. Though I do know that the Youjiro gene is NOT rust resistent. So that means it needs to be crossed many times with a I. purpurea. From what I understand ... I. purpureas are NOT easy to cross with an I. nil. So maybe I am nuts ... probably ... but I am seriously thinking of trying this crazy experiment. And it is simply because I want to grow I. nils and not have them destroyed by rust every time I grow one. Yes, I could continuously treat them with Copper Sulphate, but wouldn't it be wonderful to grow them chemical free? So ... such an experiment is mainly for selfish reasons for me. :-) :-) :-)

(Zone 7a)

Becky, maybe you and I cannot do all the crosses it might take to produce an MG with both more rust-resistant leaves and nil-type flowers, but we can certainly nudge anyone reading this to try it.

I. hederacea x I. nil and I. nil x I. purpurea are possible because they've been done, among other interspecific MG crosses (read http://202.243.235.3/Asagao/E/species/hybrids.html).

I think we should keep growing and enjoying these incredible flowers and keep our antennas out as folks grow theirs to see if anyone notices any MGs more disease resistant than others - as well as for any in our own gardens. Maybe our antennas will discover something down the road we cannot imagine now - all the more reason to keep reading and experimenting.

---------------------------------

Ron, or anyone who might know, I just noticed one of the descendants of Dr. Yoneda's cross of I. hederacea x I. purpurea: http://protist.i.hosei.ac.jp/Asagao/Yoneda_DB/E/PCD2521/htmls/62.html . It's got variegated leaves and small red flowers very reminiscent of Cameo Elegance, Minibar Rose and Beni Chidori. I realize we're categorizing these cultivars as being under I. nil, but could I. hederacea x I. purpurea be somewhere in their ancestry?

------------------------------------------------

Regarding cultivars that produce both light and dark seeds, I think we need to know more before we can assume that light and dark seeds produced by a vine represent 2 different cultivars. A few folks (including me) have noticed that Blue Silk produces both light and dark seeds, but I haven't seen any grow-outs testing whether both colors of seed are typical of Ipomoea nil Blue Silk (see the MG sticky under Seed Coat).

Also in the sticky (http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/p.php?pid=2274378), Ron posted that Ipomoea tricolor Flying Saucers produced both light and dark seeds which produced vines with lighter and darker pigmentation, respectively. Otherwise, the two colors of seed in this case produce the same cultivar (if anyone knows differently, I hope you'll correct me).

I was able to harvest and keep 2 bagged seeds last year from Emma's Cocoa Chocolate (HamagingaNOT). One was light and the other dark. They're growing in the garden now, and I hope to root cuttings from each one so I can bring in a pot of each this fall before frost hits for seed ripening. I can't wait to see what kind of flowers result. (I know I told everyone that received seeds from me that they could do whatever they wished with those seeds, but if anyone should post pics of the open pollinated Cocoa Chocolate seed I sent, I would be extremely happy to see them. Becky, how about you?).

Blue Silk not only produced light and dark seeds last summer, but also calico ones(!). I had very few of those, so only Go_Fast got one (if I remember correctly) (Martin, be sure to *rattle my cage* if you grow that one out, purty please).

Soooo, different colors of seed may not necessarily mean different cultivars, but they sure do pose questions worth exploring.

--------------------------------------------

Becky, no way can a quest for a more disease resistant flower that lowers our dependency on chemicals be a "selfish" pursuit. There are so many diseases (types of cancer, for one) and birth defects that have been associated with certain chemicals (let alone synergistic effects yet to be tested). Who hasn't either been touched by something like this or knows someone who has? I think it's hugely wonderful and important for each individual who, in however small a way, can make a dent in the Chemical Soup in which we all live - by the way they live their life.

This message was edited Aug 4, 2008 11:08 AM

(Zone 7a)

ps - to anyone I've promised more seeds, I haven't forgotten. They'll be viable at least 5 years, if not 10 or more.

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

bluespiral - The link to the Ipomoea purpurea x Ipomoea hederacea cross shows a plant with leaves that have been damaged by a herbivorous insect in my opinion and not a genetic variegation...

I always give hyperlinks a devoted line as this prevents unintentional characters from interfering with the hyperlink...like having a period inadvertently placed after the html...

Generally,I agree with all of the observational and experimental suggestions made by bluespiral...

TTY,...

Ron

(Zone 7a)

Thanks, Ron - I fixed that link.

I'm still curious about how MGs like Cameo Elegance, Minibar Rose, Beni Chidori, etc., came by their distinctively dainty, silvered leaves. Their small, deep rosy flowers complement those little leaves so beautifully. Was it just a random mutation, that one day a small-leaved I. nil appeared with those variegations? But, then, where would we all be if not for random mutations - homo sapiens would still be slime upon a volcanic rock back in this planet's original primordial soup. hmmm

???

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Karen - I couldn't agree with you more. I will definitely keep an eye out. Now I've lost track of who here on the forum had an I. nil with heart-shaped leaves. Argh!!! Was it Ronnie? Anyway, that one has me very curious. I know that I. nils can have heart-shaped leaves, but I've never grown one or seen one. When I saw the photo, it got my attention right away! So I am really interested to know how that particular vine handles rust spores. I am hoping I'll be able to trade for some seeds of that particular vine!

I am truly going to try the near impossible and see if I can get an I. nil and an I. purpurea to cross. I have seeds now for the two I want to try crossing. Wish me luck. And then from there, I'll try to re-cross again. I know... I know ... over-confident aren't I? LOL! But hey! Worth trying, right? The worst that could happen is I get some beautiful vines and the best might actually produce a cross! I am up to the challenge!!! Bring it on!!!!!! :-) :-) :-)

Karen, you said, "Regarding cultivars that produce both light and dark seeds, I think we need to know more before we can assume that light and dark seeds produced by a vine represent 2 different cultivars." Almost 98% of the collected seeds that were from one particular vine were tan. I intentionally crossed several of the blooms with that vine that had dark seeds. I am going to try growing out those seeds that were tan and dark and also some of the dark seeds. If it is truly a cross, then I will absolutely be trying the I. nil and I. purpurea cross from that particular I. nil vine with the tan seeds. The I. purpurea I am going to grow has dark seeds. I actually have another I. nil vine that also produced pretty much all tan seeds. Might try two different I. nil cultivars. One of the two cultivars might just be capable of an I. purpurea cross? Can ya tell I am pumping myself up for this challenge? (Can you hear the Rocky theme song playing in the background? LOL!)

Aren't I. nils seeds typically larger than I. purpureas? I wonder if that would be another way to tell?

Now my little brain is just spinning with ideas! All for not probably, but I'm game!

(Zone 7a)

Becky, one thing's for sure - whatever the results from your crosses, we'll all learn something. Sounds like your summer is just beginning - lol

G'night

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

"Was it just a random mutation, that one day a small-leaved I. nil appeared with those variegations?"

Yes,and then no...

A mutation for a small leaf appeared at some point and someone probably decided that it would look nice when combined with the gene for that particular type of variegation...the genes most likely appeared separately and were combined afterwards by someones aesthetic view...


"But, then, where would we all be if not for random mutations - homo sapiens would still be slime upon a volcanic rock back in this planet's original primordial soup"

There are many who think we are yet but slime upon the volcanic rock and it will be only through the Majesty of the MG Forum that we can reclaim our Souls ...toccata and fugue in d minor crescendoes(!)...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-264049045632858020&q=+%22toccata+and+fugue+in+d+minor%22&ei=MQyYSKK_GpDErwKhrby7Aw&hl=en
Each combination of keyboard keys is a set of genes being newly combined...MUAHAHAHA(!)...






This message was edited Aug 6, 2008 6:17 AM

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

P.S. - Probably closer to reality
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cN6TiQ5w8V0

This message was edited Aug 6, 2008 6:31 AM

(Zone 7a)

Ron, as our morning glories unfurl during these summer mornings, I agree that a little music might be in order. For mornings when the view consists of deer-chomped MG leaves & buds, "I Can't Get No Satisfaction" (Rolling Stones?) comes to mind. And then, there's mornings when a blossom eludes the critters and it came from a friend on DG...I'm thinking of Gourd's Dracula - now there's a flower deserving of Bach's Toccata & Fugue in DM.

Gourd, if you're reading this, what music would you recommend for Dracula? Anyone else want to suggest their favorite music for their favorite species & cultivars?

Just about every work Bach wrote can be downloaded from the following website for Johann Sebastian Bach - audio has a section and so does free, online sheet music under "Scores" toward the bottom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Sebastian_Bach

The next link takes you to more composers - both classical and other types - in other times. As far as I've explored, each composer's webpage (whose copyrights have expired and are thus considered "open domain") gives you links to both free, online audio and sheet music links. I think this kind of availability may not exist for too many years into the future, so if anyone finds this useful, I would download away and share with anyone you think might benefit. You'd think, with school budgets cutting out the arts and humanities, that the powers-that-be would be more protective of free availability of educational resources grrr. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Classical_composers

Mesilla Park, NM

Most definitely Bach, or Sarah Brighton..Phantom of the Opera.. thanks for noting the blooms on Dracula, it has remained true for the third and 4th seasons, so it looks like it will stay that way.

Just wanted to let Ron know that I. adenoides bloomed this morning, but I couldn't take a photo, It was the White bush form.. it appears that it had bloomed one day this week too, I found the dried sepals, but never fear, there are more buds. Nice white flower very translucent.

A.

Jacksonville, AR(Zone 7b)

A, thanks so much for Count Drac. Mine is also producing those lovely 2 tone
blue flowers, the reason I fell in love with this one in the 1st place. Making seeds
too so I can share. All in all,
a wonderful m glory.

Becky, My nil, Plum Shadows, is making the heart shaped lvs.
Ronnie might also have heart shaped nil lvs too..This is from
seeds you shared with me. I will be glad to share seeds with you and Ron.
It has already made 4 or 5 nice looking seed pods.

New Castle, IN

Is the lighter color on the leaves rust? I also have this on my Blue Picotee which hasn't bloomed yet and is 8 ft tall!

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Jackie - Thanks! These threads become a blur as to who has what! LOL! So ... you are growing one of my Plum Shadows seeds, so I went back and looked at my photos from last year. My PS had leaves that started out kinda heart shaped but then changed a bit. How tall is your vine?

Jacksonville, AR(Zone 7b)

Becky, it's at least 4 feet tall. Left to it's own devices, its climbing back up it's own
stem instead of the bamboo stick. Correction on the # of seedpods, 2 nice fat ones, but 4 closed up flowers that should produce as many seed pods and more
blooms forming.
I love the open pollinated seeds and the surprises they bring.

(Zone 7a)

Mayniac, can you post a photo of your Blue Picotee?

Gourd, do the blooms of Ipomoea adenioides bloom at night like a moonflower? fragrant? I see in DG PlantFiles that Ron has compared it to other moonflowers - http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/107581/

I think quite a few of us die and go to heaven every time a moonflower gets mentioned, pictured, blooms ... And then, when new and/or unusual species come around here - well - from this one's picture - http://www.aluka.org/action/showCompilationPage?doi=10.5555/AL.AP.COMPILATION.PLANT-NAME-SPECIES.IPOMOEA.ADENIOIDES - that sure doesn't look like it came from a South American rain forest. Just amazes me the different clothes moonflowers in Convolvulaceae wear from habitat to habitat.

ps - sheet music for Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata - https://urresearch.rochester.edu/retrieve/11829/39087013630183.score.pdf
(if that doesn't work, click on this - https://urresearch.rochester.edu/handle/1802/4754 )
other Beethoven sheet music - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven

an easy version of this sonata's first movement - http://www.8notes.com/scores/1754.asp?ftype=gif
other easy sheet music on 8notes' website - http://www.8notes.com/piano_sheet_music.asp

free piano lessons - http://www.8notes.com/piano/ (a teacher would be best, though)

Debussy's Clair de Lune - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claude_Debussy

You might be able to find free recordings of this music on the above Wikimedia websites, too - easier to swat skeeters while listening than playing - lol

Edited to add Ron's and Gourd's clarifications --

1) Gourd thinks I. adenioides may only bloom in the morning; hence, it doesn't act like a moonflower (she'll get back to us about this).

2) Ron says his comparison of I. adenioides to other moonflowers was only meant to show structural similarities; hence, it doesn't look like a moonflower.

Ergo & Duh! if it doesn't act or look like a moonflower, then it ain't (Doncha just love the smell of smoking brain cells? lol)

This message was edited Aug 6, 2008 7:22 PM

(Zone 7a)

still waiting for flowers on Dracula & Plum Shadows - fun to compare notes - thankx everyone

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

Jackie - Looking at my photos, the Plum Shadows started out with large heart-shaped variegated leaves, but as the vine grew, the leaves changed to look more like what is more typical of an I. nil. I am interested to see what your vine does. Your vine looks very much like mine did. http://davesgarden.com/community/blogs/i/36555/

Karen - I have to agree with you ... there is something about the Moonflower (I. alba) that just mesmerizes me! They are just amazing blooms! I wish I could get mine to grow this year. They keep petering out. I need to try a different tactic growing them. I may start some more seeds this week in a different location. Aww yes ... Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata! :-)

Mesilla Park, NM

I gotta tell you guys, this one has a very long tube.. I think it may open in the morning from what I can tell, but will keep my eye on it now that I know it has buds, it closed by noon.. I did get a photo of the tube, but did not measure it.. will on the next one.. it had a very faint pinkish line going into the throat, but no fragrance that I could tell.. it might release it at night (if it does open at night) I am not sure it does... I is very ruffly like the gourd flowers are.. I did hand pollinate this one this morning along with the macrorhiza flowers... these whiteflies are just about devouring everything in their path this year... I almost have given up completely for this year...I won't start anything till next year and try to keep these alive as long as I can. It has been very disappointing at my end..

I've got a few I. nil plants left that may get some pollen now that it is cooling but, it looks grim.

(Becky) in Sebastian, FL(Zone 10a)

A - So sorry to hear that the whiteflies are attacking your vines. I guess other things (rust, whiteflies, etc.) seem to like MGs as much as we do! :-( Do share some photos with us of I. adenoides when you can catch it blooming! Would love to see it!

Not to get off topic from MGs, but my 2 tuberose plants are really blooming up a storm this year! http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/go/458/

The smell reminds me of Gardenia. I can't get over all the night blooming plants that really release their scent at night. I grow a lot of plants for their fragrance and the night bloomers really seem to far surpass the day bloomers in smell. Brugs, 4 O'Clocks, Moonflowers, Tuberose, etc. make gardening such a joy of the senses! :-)

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

Bluespiral - I mentioned that the Ipomoea adenioides is structurally similar to the moonvines,but not that it is a moonvine...

The illustration at the aluka site shows an elongated tube characteristic of a night blooming vine,but the herbarium specimens do not show such an elongated tube...

There may be closely related species which are not fully clarified botanically which are being described as I.adenioides but which may in fact ultimately prove to be separate distinct species...

TTY,...

Ron


P.S. - Many flowers release their fragrance relatively soon after opening and the perfume may fade as the flower approaches closing time...

(Zone 7a)

Thanks Gourd & Ron - I've edited my post to reflect that it's not a moonflower - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/editpost.php?pid=5373971 - If Gourd sees this one blooming at night, then we will have a vewwwwwwwy intewesting MoonflowerNOT.

I know I've been among the naughtiest with regard to hijacking Meag's thread. Becky, you and I are gonna hafta trot over to the Fragrant Flowers forum and start another one of those threads for fragrant, night-flowering flowers - I just adore those, too ...or bump one up if it already exists and gussy it up a bit.

mike_freck, my opinion about the effectiveness of electronic devices for deer is that - according to what I've read of others' experiences - that they will work for a while but ultimately be outsmarted by the deer. The more numerous and hungry the deer, the sooner they outsmart the device and vice versa.

Gourd, hoping to hear from you as to whether I. adenioides blooms at night; and, extremely sorry to hear about all those white flies etc. that gotcher fleurs (am sending you a dmail as soon as I finish dissecting this thread for Ye Sticky). I wonder if white flies have any biological predators and what environmental conditions/habitat would nurture them and whether all that could be artificially contrived? I seem to recall that not too many years ago there was an experimental ark to see how long a closed biological system could be maintained artificially - would love to find a reference to it and see what the results were.

And last - by not least for this post - Meag posted positive results for her method of bringing her rust-smitten fleurs back from the brink - by sequentially using Neem Oil, Daconil and Bayer 3 in 1 - http://davesgarden.com/community/forums/t/886663/

Could we put any further posts in Meag's new thread? This one's about to get a bit long for dial-uppers.

Netcong, NJ(Zone 5b)

Bluespiral - I noted a structural similarity of the Ipomoea adenioides to certain moonflowers that did not explicitly affirm nor explicitly deny any moonflower status...any other interpretations are those of the readership...

The majority of night flowering species in Ipomoea have elongated tubes,but there are exceptions e.g., Ipomoea albivenia...

TTY,...

Ron

Zephyrhills, FL

Meag, I think that is a Japanese Morning Glory with a Japanese name and I think is more commonly called Rosita. That horrid damage is caused by the Gold Tortoise Beetle. I have the same pest. Pretty flower, such a shame.

Zephyrhills, FL

The fecal you see on the leaves may be a sign of that beetle's presence. Not only does it do unsightly damage, it can also, I would think, spread the rust infection. The larvae of the gold tortoise beetle masks its presence by hiding under its own feces while feeding on the leaves. All that glitters is not gold. They came to my neck of the woods when a farmer tried growing sweet potatoes in a field across the road from my home. The cuttings
used must have been infested with larvae.The species plaguing my garden turns orange when provoked.

Aschaffenburg, Germany

Can you post some photos of this bettle, ranson 3 and your plants?


Gofast

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