I WILL Thump You on Your Head

Calgary, AB(Zone 3a)

Welcome home Mulch. Sorry you've been feeling poorly and missed the People of Dirt meeting. Roybird I have overalls. White with red hot chile peppers on them ^_^ I could wear those.

Santa Fe, NM

Glad you are back, Mulch and Dahlia! Dahlia, the over-alls sound fetching. You could wear those. I don't even have any overalls these days. Just blue jeans with dirt stained knees. Or holes in the knees.

Not saying we can't take time off and attend to life - heehee so busy in Springtime but know that you are missed when you are not posting! That goes for everybody!

Los Alamos, NM(Zone 5a)

I bet Dahlia was in her greenhouse singing to her plants.

Albuquerque, NM(Zone 7b)

A lot of singing is needed in the Spring.

Helena, MT(Zone 4b)

OK, please tell me the secret of how to insert musical notes in my posts. I've got music on the brain!
Julie

Ennis, MT(Zone 4a)

Women of the Dirt went through something like a hurricane of protest. The very loud consensus was that it is to remain women only. I did not express an opinion in the torrent of emails roaring through the ethers as this point was addressed.

I guess it is a strong reminder of how much healing remains to be done within and between the genders. And if these vocal women find their healing by keeping it a women only support group, so it is. But I would have been fine with People of the Dirt myself. However, I hardly ever manage to attend the actual meetings, so I left it to those who are most active that way.

Los Alamos, NM(Zone 5a)

I would expect that women ranchers feel a bit excluded from the ranching world. A female self-help group is probably just what they need. Maybe they could call in a male guest speaker now and then to speak on ranching from the male point of view -- although Hollywood is full of treatises on the subject.

Albuquerque, NM(Zone 7b)

I wonder if those same women are accepting of men's groups for their husbands.

Ennis, MT(Zone 4a)

Actually, a number of them recommended the men start a Men of the Dirt group. And I do think that coping with men ranchers may be part of the issue, from the comments I heard. And a male guest speaker who asked to join the group is what set off the firestorm.

Los Alamos, NM(Zone 5a)

Well, that probably depends on the woman. I certainly am --DH used to belong to one, but it may be that not all of these women have DH's. In fact, their anger at men, might prohibit them from having a DH. Not that women can't be sexist, too -- they can. Sometimes I even catch myself at it and we all know that if you catch yourself at something one time, you probably missed dozens of other times. Humans aren't very good at seeing their own wrongs -- and I include myself.

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

I think that part of the gender conflict is the exclusion of men from any women groups while the court system continues to force men's groups to accept women. The gender bias has been focused on over-coming male domination in society. This is good but it leaves a bad feeling of men who have been excluded in many aspects of this paradigm.
Of course the feelings of women who have been limited and hurt by a male dominated world prior to 30 years ago are acting out also. We will have conflict until this is no longer a problem. Todays teens seem to be gender equal so that is where it shall end.

Los Alamos, NM(Zone 5a)

Well, guest speaker is one thing and membership is something else! I think ranching along with science are some of the last bastions of the nearly exclusive male domain.

You could put them in bunny costumes and let them serve beverages first. Sometimes reconciliation requires accepting a little - just so we know you really 'get' it.
Actually I'm all for inclusion though I don't belong to a single organization ~ lol what a dweeb I am with an opinion!
I have one of those devils sitting on my left shoulder and an angel sitting on my right shoulder. I listen to them both whispering in my ears.

Los Alamos, NM(Zone 5a)

Well, I agree that bunnies are adorable, but I can afford to be nice to them because i don't have all that many. I know that gardening is impossible for some people due to rabbits. Probably the best thing to do would be to import a coyote or a bobcat. Nature's way but hard for humans.

Santa Fe, NM

Paja, first laugh of the day..."Hollywood is full of treatises on the subject " referring to male rancher viewpoint. Pretty funny. My D.H. plays in a poker game that is usually all male. Sometimes a wife or girlfriend will play but those guys are such dancing bears I've never wanted to join them. One of the other " poker wives " is a wild gal from Texas. She says they all play like old ladies and spend half their time arguing about the rules. The class I teach Thursday was all female for the past year. Recently added a male student. The dynamic changed, I think for the better. We had gotten a little sloppy and too much side talk. Perhaps because this man is coming during his lunch break from work he is more focussed on what he wants from the class.

Helena, MT(Zone 4b)

The gender gap is widening in colleges and universities:

http://www.dateline.ucdavis.edu/dl_detail.lasso?id=11086

I was blown away by this report, as it seems we are headed for a society in which the women are more educated than the men. They even have the majority in medicine and veterinary school!

“Lynn Kimsey ’75, Ph.D. ’79, interim chair of the entomology department, believes that the imbalance begins in K–12 schools. “Schools are hard pressed to keep achievement high, so they focus on the kids who are easiest to get this from — girls,” Kimsey said. “The boys are higher energy and harder to focus. . . . The lack of PE and other high-energy activities makes it tough for boys. I saw this in my own son and the way that teachers focused on the girls, even to how assignments were given.

"Many men out of high school head straight for construction, high-tech and military jobs. They are so turned off by high school that they don’t even think about continuing in school. The money, at least, was good in these fields.”

The result, Kimsey said, is a society of women who are increasingly highly educated and white collar and men who are less educated and blue collar."

Los Alamos, NM(Zone 5a)

It is also the case that women need to have more education to get the same job as men. I could find statistics if I searched. Women going into high tec industries without proper credentials do not do any where near as well as men doing the same -- this I know from personal experience.
All this improvement in education for women has not resulted in equal pay for women. Why should men break their backs in difficult classes when they can get jobs without them? Mind you, I think this will change as the newly educated women move up in the ranks of their industries, but that is the way it was throughout my technical career. My former employer has settled many equal pay and class action suits for discrimination in pay against women, but they keep right on doing it. Department of Energy picks up the tab for all the legal battles and settlements. Talk about institutionalized discrimination!
My sympathies are with the female ranchers on that subject. It is hard to appreciate a person who is part of the class discriminating against you. Before I went into technical work I was a teacher where men and women are paid more or less the same. The anger was no where near as fierce among male and female teachers.
I think all of this is working itself out, but we aren't there yet.

Santa Fe, NM

There is a great line in the movie, "Body Heat" with Kathleen Turner and William Hurt. They are at the " getting to know you " part of their relationship. She says, in a smokey voice, "Not too bright, are you? I like that in a man." He just happily nods his head. I think that's how it goes.

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Well the gender issue in Med and Vet school I can tell you is one of those male anger issues. In my class in 1973 when we started there were 8,000 students applying for Vet school. Of those only 116 students were going to be accepted. The break down in male vs female applicants was about 80% Male and 20% Female. The selection commitee was biased to have female and minorities primary acceptance and males only a small percent. Our class ended up 75% female and 25% male. This was not based on any GPA because the guys in our class had over a 3.6 average compared to a 3.2 gals. I don't think the lack of males in any profession that has selection comittees has anything to do with ability but rather gender and minority.

Reno, NV

Sometimes it's fun to be 'just girls'. But honestly, the world would be a lot less fun without both sexes.

Albuquerque, NM(Zone 7b)

Everybody wants to be respected and treated well. Everybody has a perspective on life and things they want to do with it. I think the two big sources of anger between the sexes are 1) Not being given respect and recognition as a valid human being and 2) being frustruated and angry because the other sex doesn't live accoriding to your agenda for life. I see both of these things in both sexes. I would hope you are right about the current battle ending Soferdig, but I think selfishness is the root cause. People have been selfish for as long as we have had history to record it, and likely it will continue.

Employment fields are not something that should be exclusive.

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Amen to the selfishness but that is hufemale/man behavior. We shall never overcome it. Employment fields have always been exclusive. First all male now all female. Too many people want to be Doctors. All selection committees have their own protocol.

Albuquerque, NM(Zone 7b)

And that is a problem. I also experience this discrimination. I got my BS in Mechanical Engineering during a recession. ALL of the women and minorities had jobs before graduation. 1 white male had a job. His girlfriend had told the company they were getting married and made her acceptace of the job contingent on both of them getting hired.

What it all comes down to is that each of us has a choice in how we treat the people we encounter and associate with in life.

Ennis, MT(Zone 4a)

I think it goes far deeper than simple selfishness, although that can be a factor. It is more like a group dynamic that became pathological and individuals get indoctrinated it from birth, by both their mothers and fathers. It simply is a self perpetuating distortion. I do think that it will change, hopefully as fast as Sofer thinks, but I am not holding my breath on that one.

However, worldwide, women have far worse problems than a few redneck ranchers or smaller paychecks. But the existing pathology hurts both genders nonetheless as it does not allow either gender to truly thrive to the best they are capable of being. And it really makes it difficult for the genders to relate in an authentically honoring space.

Ennis, MT(Zone 4a)

Dparsons,
We cross posted. I like your remark "What it all comes down to is that each of us has a choice in how we treat the people we encounter and associate with in life." We just need more people aware of that and willing to make decent choices about it!

Albuquerque, NM(Zone 7b)

I agree about the pathology and indoctrination. I would consider that the selfishness is a different facet of the same ugliness. A selfish mind creates a doctrine to support its point of view and attempts to bring others in to feel justified. Part of it is also the deception that accompanies growing up in a whole society that says it is so.

I look at all the sexual imagery involving women used to sell things. I have wondered how it proliferates when it is so demeaning. And manipulative. Why to people continue to use others this way? How do they find more than 3 women in the country to be willing participants? Then I see them starting to use men the same way and 100s of women screaming, "yes, yes, now the shoe is on the other foot!" I accept the anger and frustration, but how does demeaning more people solve anything?

The way we treat others in trying to reach a solution is part of the solution we will reach. The English and the Irish are still fighting. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. is highly respected and did a lot to get equal rights for African Americans. Malcolm X is not so respected.

Albuquerque, NM(Zone 7b)

x-posting again:

It would be wonderful to have more people aware of and making good choices. Education is a big part. Willingness is more difficult. Part of it I think also goes back to what pajarito said about catching herself. Its painful to find those negative things and difficult to face them in yourself. Some people don't want to. How the rest of us address that is important. The temptation is to try to coerce the other. That frequently ends in more fighting. The choice to govern your own behavior in not putting up with the garbage is the harder but right way. Support and acceptance for people so that they can change is essential.

Ennis, MT(Zone 4a)

Dparsons,
We have some similar points of view I see. I do make a distinction between individual and group dynamics, because even though it may be a distinction that appears blurred in daily life, it is real nonetheless. That is why I am interested in modalities such as Crystalline Consciousness Technique because they are designed to address the group issues effectively, creating a framework for easier individual change.

Albuquerque, NM(Zone 7b)

Group dyanimcs are quite different.

What is the Crystalline Consciousness Technique / approach?

What would you do for a group of men and women who were angry at each other?

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

I am in complete agreement with both of you. And ditto to the 'choice' approach. My fathers world used women for house cleaning, jokes, build up their self perception, cook their meals, make them raise their children, etc. All of these I have reversed and chose to include in my work expectation with my DW. So choice has changed me. I have been motivated by relationships with women who have succeded in raising families, recovered from sexual abuse/or not, have shown me the lifestyle of class that we all respect.

Albuquerque, NM(Zone 7b)

Very nice to being open to learning from more people. By accounts, it has enriched your life Sofer.

Los Alamos, NM(Zone 5a)

I do notice more female veternarians than male ones around here anyhow and have to assume there was some preference given to them. For many years the only veternarians I saw were men. I guess someday it will even out. I don't really object to women getting in with lower GPA's than men under the circumstances. I know women have been treated badly in many science and engineering classes over the years. I was in an engineering class once where all the men got A's and all the women got B's and those grades definitely did not reflect the work both had done. The teacher was so clearly aware of what he had done that he actually asked me -- when I ran into him in the lab cafeteria if I was mad at him for giving me a B. I was, but I wouldn't give him the satisfaction. I just said no and walked off. I assumed he knew he was wrong and liked the idea of making me mad. This was in the 80's when they were just starting the Women in Science programs in New Mexico. I was in the first class.
At the time I started there were 3,000 physicists here and of those 15 were women. The situation has improved considerably since. I think the lab has about 20% female physicists.
I agree that both sides should treat each other with respect, but I think there are plenty of people around who don't feel that way at all. I agree with mulch that it is in how we are raised as children and it is deeply embedded in our minds. Some of it may even be genetic, but the bottom line is that I want to see equal pay for equal work for all people.
If a club treats women poorly, they are welcome to quit and men the same. But we all have to work for a living and I don't see why some should be paid more than others. Work should not be a private club for any group.

Santa Fe, NM

I like to think that equal pay is a given but I know it isn't yet. When I was a beginning pre-school teacher I was hired before a male teacher who, I found out thru the grapevine, was starting at a higher salary than I was making. I asked the director of the (private) school and she said it was because more men were needed in that field and required more money to be induced to work with little children. Which is something "natural " for women! What was worse was that the guy was an idiot. He didn't last long, though. But, the point I'm making is that women can be unfair to women, too. In the tai chi school where I work I am currently the only female teacher. I am also, to be honest, the least experienced. It works out pretty well, so far. Actually, one of the male teachers is more emotional and intuitive than I am! And there is one female student who loves physical contests and confrontation. She is fiercely logical and rather unyielding. Go figure. I think we are all getting better, on the whole.

Albuquerque, NM(Zone 7b)

The injustice is maddeing. I would have been angry with that professor too pajarito.

It should go without saying: Equal pay for equal work. Equal opportunity. I don't think that one generation having one injustice done to it justifies doing the opposite injustice to the next generation. It doesn't set things right for the people originally offended and offends a whole new group of people.

Los Alamos, NM(Zone 5a)

Absolutely. An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind according to Gandhi. I do think things are better. The first teaching job I applied for when I first graduated from college, I was told that I would be qualified but they wanted a man -- this was from a female principal. So I took a job at a different school that I didn't want as much. Then the principal told me that she tried to hire me but I had already taken the other job. Grrr! This was way before the feminist movement of the 70's. Yes, I am that old. At that time, it was just fine to tell a woman that they wanted a man and I took to umbrage at it. Now I would call my attorney.

Gastonia, NC(Zone 7b)

Oh, I have been *trying* to stay out of this one but cannot resist telling this one story. Long ago in the medieval era when I was in college, I took a Social Psychology 101 monster course, one of those with 500 bored kids in an auditorium and 250 multiple choice questions on the exams etc.

The textbook was a troglodyte. In the chapter on gender, there was some picture of "girls and boys" that just really ticked me off, I honestly cannot remember what the sexist caption was but it was pretty 'tupid.

The professor happened to be a Black man so, as (to my naive mind) he therefore should have been sensitive to discrimination, I was even more outraged.

I marched up to him and lit into him for not making some effort to balance out the message in the textbook and tell people the truth.

His response to me was "How about you do it?"

*gulp*

I was trapped.

But I took the challenge and prepared a talk....... and took the podium one day. As this was a class many people were only taking for the credit I made an announcement at the beginning that the material being covered would not be on the exam. About half of them left. But the other half stayed and apparently really dug it cause there was a line of people wanting to shake my hand, after.....

Realized later on that professor just really did not want anything to do with teaching, it was not his bag, he was just grateful some naive freshman was willing to share the load with his TAs.

what a trip that was.

Okay, back to lurking. ;-)

Los Alamos, NM(Zone 5a)

So for him it was just laziness. I think that is often the case among the rest of the population as well. It is just easier not to do anything than to try to change the status quo. I think we are all guilty of that at times. I can think of times I have heard parents picking on their kids unnecessarily in public and men humiliating their wives in public. I didn't do anything in either case because of laziness and fear of what would happen to me if I spoke up. I often hear people say horrible things about blacks in Mississippi and I don't say a word because I want to get along there. I don't agree, but I am silent.
We all have many opportunities to set things right that we don't take. You deserve to be proud of yourself for speaking out in your college class. Obviously plenty of people agreed with you. Your courage probably gave them a bit of courage for next time.

Gastonia, NC(Zone 7b)

Well, and I have to say too, that professor deserves some credit for offering me the opportunity to speak, many would not have done that much.

Kalispell, MT(Zone 4b)

Just to put humor in this discussion I also had the opportunity to disscuss with our first year veterinary class why I wanted 2 days off to go deer hunting. The professor said if I discussed the reason why I wanted to kill an animal I could have the 2 days off. Well needless to say it went bad because 75% of the class were women and 20% of the men had never gone hunting so I bravely stood in front and told them the story. It started with introducing myself because few knew me (it was early in the first term). I went into a hand raising session of how many knew what a Bar Mitzvahh and what it stood for and then went on to say I need 2 days off from class for a similar moment with my family. I then asked how many were Vegans and only 2 raised their hands. I made some joke about McDonalds and concluded that I needed to hunt with my male friends from home to procure the needed meat for my family. They were now looking shocked and I told them that they were welcome to come with me to partake in the Hun traditions of our small town in Northern Michigan. Of course none did but I was from that point I always was a name they could remember.
The professor was totally surprised that I got in front of the class and let me go to opening day of deer hunting.

Thumbnail by Soferdig

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