"the Hun traditions" -- LOL! Soferdig..
and to think, all this started with thumping a li'l ole grasshopper on his head.
I WILL Thump You on Your Head
"the Hun traditions" -- LOL! Soferdig..
Well, it sounds like we all have had our own experiences in the gender chaos, which is not much of a surprise, how could we avoid it anyway?
If I was a member of the group of angry men and women, or asked by a member of the group, I could do a CCT (Crystalline Consciousness Technique) session to help shift the group dynamics. A key part of CCT is the use of positive intentions. Major premise is not to violate anyone else's free will and choice, so it would not address intentions for individuals. Another major premise is that if someone in a group is causing a problem, say with poor communication, it is not a matter of pointing fingers. It is an indication that everyone in the group has that problem in some form or another, and the apparent problem person is merely showing it vividly.
Intentions that could help the group you described might be to honor and respect each other, peaceful clear communication, fair and equitable solution of problems, and so forth. These intentions could be fine tuned to the specific group issues if more information was available, but those are good starting points. One thing to remember is that the intentions affect everyone involved in the group, not just the guy or gal over there.
And individuals may choose to go against the group energy. I was in a group where a lot of dishonest manipulation was occuring and I used the intention "Let the truth be revealed so right action follows." The liars kept lying, but were quickly exposed (this after several months of successful maneuvering on their part) and the situation corrected. They got their free choice, but the group went on the intended path.
You can see more about CCT at http://crystallineconsciousness.com/. And I will be doing some CCT for Women of the Dirt, as I am a member. Looks like the group is ripe for some deeper healing to me!
We cross posted. Seems to me thumping a grasshopper is sort of the same topic as gender wars, now isn't it? At least it is closer to the topic than we usually manage to stay in a thread, ha!
Don't be so hard on yourself pajarito. Yes its a fearful thing to confront somebody in public. Discretion as to when you can and should actually help is important too. I've done both. I've felt guilty when I didn't, but have not been left with the impression that I helped the situation when I did speak up. I've only seen a good result when I've had a connection with the person and have been gentle and respectful to them. This does not always work. I also know that my personal experience is not sufficient to be statistically valid.
I have read that people who are abusive and who are confronted by a single individual will turn the blame on the person they are abusing and punish them later. What has worked is when the person's social circle says "we will help you to overcome this or we will have to cease associating with you." I guess that is back to Mulch's statement on group dynamics.
Thank you for the response mulch. I'll have to ponder some of the symantics for a bit but I agree with the respect, freedom of choice, and your actions being shown for what they are.
I also hope it goes well for the Women of Dirt, that they find what they need.
This message was edited Mar 5, 2009 9:11 PM
This topic has been rather intense. I hope I have not offended anybody in anything I've said (or scared them out of posting). You all are people I care about and I wouldn't want that.
Me, too. I think we all need healing in the area of our societal gender chaos -- and other kinds of social chaos. Any good you can do toward that end is definitely a step in the right direction.
Mulch, yes, that was eggzackly what I was pointing out. tee hee
I like your group dynamics approach. Although I am not averse to expressing an unpopular view, sometimes, or one that is a bit beyond the group's acceptable "reality bubble" -- in hopes of freeing up expression -- I for the most part will not engage with conflict but find that holding clear and harmonious intentions does indeed smooth the working out of whatever is going on.
And cross posting again..... You all are great people and I am blessed to be among you. So there.
Dparsons, just to make clear, I did not feel this was at all a confrontive exchange, just personally did not have much to contribute
This message was edited Mar 5, 2009 8:22 PM
We crossposted dparsons, but my "Me, too" works as well where it is as if it had been posted just before your last post.
I think I would like the "Women of Dirt" group.
I was part of a men's group many years ago and to summarize it dealt with men only to become better members in society. We intimately opened to a group over a weekend with psychologists 1 to 2 men. The purpose was to get men to become more open with their emotions and use them to express their feelings. Anyway many there were hurt with the same conflicts listed above. Each but one ended the weekend a new man who continued with a once weekly meeting of men for over 2 years to solidify their growth from the weekend. I went in, after divorce, hating women and left with a purpose to enhance and uplift any women I interacted with. It led me to reading and understanding what happens with issues of anger in women. This helped me back off and listen when confronted. But I also learned to defend men for what they can be. It was great getting naked and beating on drums around our communal fire. Aaaarrrrrgggghhhh.
I must say I am impressed with the openness and honesty of the sharing that has characterized this discussion. This is a wonderful group here indeed!
Sofer, I think that kind of group is a very good thing for men with issues and women with issues benefit from similar groups as well -- not so much beating on drums and getting naked, I suspect. I have been in such groups and benefited wildly. I don't think I would be married now if I hadn't delt with some of the issues of my upbringing and the society in general. It is important not to blame every individual for what has been done to you by a group of individuals. It doesn't work to see people as groups, because each of us is different. Not all women are self serving manipulators and not all men are self serving exploiters and we have to learn to discern the difference. There is a time and a place for both men's groups and women's groups, but it is good if we can eventually get together again.
People are good when they listen to others and put it to work for them. Those who don't have a small circle they live in and exclude many opportunities to enlarge their lives.
I think that it's important to talk about gender issues, race issues, any of the -isms. When we sweep it under a rug and pretend like we're to 'advanced' for it, we lose the opportunity to learn and grow. We cannot address gender without excepting that there are issues to address.
Our differences are what make life fun. All the fabulous shapes and sizes and colors of both men and women, all the increadable persons. I think we gender limit ourselves so much, we try to live as stereotypes and it doesn't work.
I also belive that we need to give our male children as much choice as we give our female children. So offen I hear people telling girls they can do anything they want, but when was the last time you heard someone tell a boy that it's ok to be a ballerina?
edited because my fingers were trying to keep up with the brain:)
This message was edited Mar 6, 2009 9:44 AM
My grandson has been insisting on ballet lessons since he was three and has been dancing in the Nutcracker every Christmas since he was five.
However, he will not ever be a ballerina as that by definition is female. ;-)
We all enthusiastically support his dancing interests.
My family has taught me some amazing lessons about gender. We have three transgender people in the extended family. I've known all three since they were children. It's been an unbelievable journey, watching these three transformations.
Things I have learned from them:
They are still the same person, whether outwardly male or female.
Gender is in the brain/mind as well as the body. Sometimes the two don't agree.
If you have gender dysphoria, you know it. From about age 4-5. But the people around you don't have a clue. (I sure didn't.)
Gender is a continuum. Some prefer to be in the middle. One of these three is very androgynous, and does not like it when people expect her to be clearly male or female.
OK, that's my two cents' worth on gender. It's a mind-bender, I know.
Way to go Mulch!
I certainly ment that as a very general generalization. ;) In collage I roomed with 3 guys who hadn't been taught the first thing about taking care of themselves. That was an interesting experiance. Most of the girls I know have at least been shown how to change a tire (even if like me they hate it;) but the guys I roomed with had never been taught things like how to seperate their laundry. That was when I really started thinking that we might be forgetting to teach half the population that males and females can do the same stuff.
I think that's a really good point about gender being a continuum Picante. On a bell curve most of us will fall somewhere in those 2 deviations:).
I like that about not putting limits on anybody, teaching both girls and boys that they can do what they want in life.
My wife's coworker has a son who loves to dance and we went to one of his performances a month ago and it was wonderful to see young men and women playing non-gender roles. Women dancing with women and men dancing with women and men. It was wonderful and when it was over his class mates were totally cool with his abilities to dance. No teasing or expectations to be other than who he is. By the way he does have a girlfriend and socially is at the top of his class. (no stereotypes here) His 15 year old sister is a free style skier who has placed 2nd in the nation this weekend with competition here in Whitefish Mountain. Lets let everyone succeed with their efforts to become who they want to be. Why are we threatened by those who are different?
Wow, Sofer, that is awesome!
Those who are threatened by anyone who is different are those who fear to do anything worthwhile themselves. There are too many people who would rather tear someone else down than build something up.
If the boys and young men of today are storming the dance floors, then the girls and young women of this generation will be far less lonely.
Honestly, the biggest gapingest hole in my life has been the lack of men dancing.
Really picante? It seems like Montana was full of dancing cowboys. Maybe that was just Bozeman. DH and I are taking a dancing class (the only way I can get him to go is to take the class with him). Since I already know the follow part pretty well and there are not enough guys, I am learning the lead part. So I get to dance with all the girls. Some of them think it's weird but most of them don't seem to mind at all. I think it's fun learning to lead cause I get to do what I want.
I agree, there should be more dancing all around. It's good for you physically and mentally.
Perhaps men like watching the women dance more than dancing themselves. ;)
I've never been big on dancing. I like to dance when there is good music on and I feel inspired. Following steps has never done anything for me. I took a balet class back in college with a girlfriend. She was thrilled and I was glad to make her happy and do something together. I really didn't enjoy the balet itself. I did enjoy the slight improvement in my soccer playing.
Sometimes I look at the intersection between men and women on things like this and they seem so ironically mismatched. I wish there was a better answer.
Well, DH and I managed to match on the subject of dancing. We are both terrible at it and prefer doing many other things, ha!
I have always loved to dance and DH will dance, but only if it would be embarrassing not to -- major social occasions. And once they he had a tiny non-speaking part in a play with Marsha Mason. Only the part required dancing and the stage was raked ( tilted) and had two levels, one about a foot higher than the other. He was so afraid that he would fall off the edge that they finally took him out of the part and gave him a tiny speaking part. Marsha Mason was at least partially behind that. She is a very nice lady.
I tried to talk him into taking tango lessons or country and western. No way. Dance and horseback riding got me through PE in college, but I don't think DH had to take it. His University didn't require it.
Men like to drink beer and get rowdy at group events. It is all about competition not grace. Let men get naked and beat on drums they will dance all night hooping and hollering all the time. When they are being watched and learning unnatural motions like classical dance they pull away. You have to teach them at young age that dancing is fun. It is not natural to do later in life. I find dancing difficult to learn. Going crazy with a good rock band is easy.
Angele, thanks for reminding us of International Women's Day and of the need to unite to protect women and girls from violence. Certainly the fact that large portions of the world still think it is normal for men to beat, mutilate, and even kill the women int heir families is part of the underlying problem between men and women, even in the US. We have a long way to go to change that in the world and in our own country. Women are far more likely to be killed in domestic violence cases in the US if there is a gun in the house. This does not help the genders get along. Women, for obvious reasons, often take a dim view of guns, men cling to them as part of their male identity.
Women need to find ways to dance without counting on men as partners. For reasons, quite unknown to me, many men think of dancing as difficult and boring -- even dancing to a good rock band for men I know. Women tend to think of it as beautiful and physically stimulating.
Men are always looking for ways to attract women, and would have lots more women in their lives if they would dance, but they don't get it.
Sometimes I think the two genders are happier if they just do the things they love and don't try to drag the opposite gender into it. Let men go dance naked around a campfire to a drum. Let women take modern dance or jazzercize or some such.
It does seem to be an American cultural thing though. Men dance more than women in the Middle East and the Balkans. Greek men love to dance and do wild athletic dancing. Even in the US I have known male folk dancers who are extremely dedicated,male Scottish country dancers in kilts with dirks in the socks and many excellent male latino dancers. Those guys have lots of women in their lives.
So, I say, let it be. Let women dance and the men who don't want to should be free to drink beer and watch the game. It is a leisure activity.
But this does point up the extreme estrangement of men from women and vice versa in the US.
Kent does not drink beer (or anything alcoholic or watch sports) though I do admit... well I was going to say something about that naked part but I'd better not!
All the cultures you mention with men dancing had that trained in their lives at an early age. Young men need to take dance classes in school and or privately. I think this class would be well attended if it were addressed as "How to get girls to like you" 101.
Our fathers do not dance with their children here in America very often so it is considered "Weird" when they are asked to.
By classical do you mean American/Western social dancing or ballet or both?
I agree that American men should be given dance classes as young people, but that alone will not solve the problem. My DH had social dancing as a kid, but he didn't stay with it very long. I like the idea of seeing their fathers dance. I think that would help a lot.
Of course, we are dealing with the chicken and the egg.
This message was edited Mar 7, 2009 11:13 AM
"How to get girls" does not work on young boys. Once they are 13 or so, then it would work. My son is 11 and he is in that stage where girls are yucky.
I had exposure to dancing every year in elementary. My mom strongly urged me to take a dance class when I was 13/14. My experience was that it was miserably boring (girls aside). I was exposed to a little bit of folk dancing growing up and it was quite fun. The only place I've seen folk dancing occurring regularly that I could participate is in ethnic social clubs. I took a date to a Jewish group's weekly dance night once. It could have been great fun, but she felt alienated by it and we ended up leaving.
Paja, I guess there will always be inhumanity but I do believe when folks become aware they can change or make an effort to not teach by example or pass on these 'behaviors'.
So much suffering in the world; it would be so much nicer if we didn't add to it.
(sorry about the double or even triple themes here)
Western social dancing. Foxtrot, Cha-cha, etc. The Cha-cha at least had an interesting rhythm.
Question: Why do we have to get men to dance? Part of my dislike was that it was put out to me like it was brocolli. "You won't like this but you have to do it because it is good for you." Dance is about recreation - that which is fun and enjoyable in life. By definition recreaction is for each person what they enjoy.
I guess think it has come to be accepted in our society that men won't enjoy dancing. Changing society is not something that can be done very easily. It takes a lot of intention by a lot of people. Lack of interest in dancing is way down on the list of things we worry about, so it doesn't get much attention.
I agree that folk dancing is great, but I guess it isn't for everyone. What was your date's objective to the Jewish ethnic dance group. Jewish ethnic dance is great fun for many men. In fact, dancing in the Jewish tradition is popular with men. Now we have the woman not wanting to dance -- oy vay!
Maybe she would like Scottish country dance, more western, very gentile.
I think the group/culture was outside of what she was used to and she didn't feel comfortable.
My on conclusion for married people is that they should find some thing(s) they enjoy doing together and some thing(s) they enjoy doing separately. If your spouse is really into something, it is part of giving to that relationship to participate or support that. Both people need to give and both need to receive or you don't have much of a relationship. If you marry a dancer, expect to have dancing be part of your life in some way and for you to be active about it. Same for art, soccer, knitting, beer making, or naked drumming, whatever it may be.
I think you are right about what married people should do -- share some things not others. I think married people sometimes think the couple should do everything together. That is the path to insanity for most of us -- can't speak for everyone. We have to enjoy the things both enjoy together then give each other space to do things both don't enjoy separately. One of the best things about my relationship with my DH is that we both have projects we do alone and others we share. Works out well. Before I married, I dated men who had to have me around at all times. Nightmare. I also dated others who just sort of vanished and reappeared from time to time -- not so good, either.
The ability to give each other space ungrudgingly makes all the difference in a relationship.